9 year old and an Uzi???

[Laurie]

What in the heck are these people thinking????   This is utterly insane!!!  This poor girl is going to have to live with this for the rest of her life.   

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/

 

 

Why can't children just be children...

 

 

 

[Scrub Jay]

I just do not understand this type of gun culture.  

[maize]

That is tragic :(

 

(Dare I admit I shot an Uzi at an army training range when I was ten or eleven? With no training? I thought it was great fun and definitely had no concept of the real risks involved...)

 

(oh, and this was not in the US or at an American military installation; I don't think our military is that irresponsible)

 

ETA also wanted to clarify my parents were not aware of this activity in advance and did not have a chance to approve it. The whole thing was part of a summer camp, and at most they might have known we were going to visit a military installation that day.

[ChrissySC]

They weren't.  Dumb.  

[creekland]

I definitely feel for the families of all involved.   :grouphug:

 

Automatic rifles in their auto setting can be tough to control even with older users.  I wouldn't let someone new to rifles try it at a young age.  I'm surprised an instructor did, but I'm guessing if he'd done it before, there weren't issues.

[mamaraby]

What a terrible thing for a 9yo to have to live with for the rest of her life.

[Kerileanne99]

That poor child. A split second.

When I was growing up there was a boy a year older than me. He and his father had been through years of training, hunter's safety classes, and experience. I think he was 11 when he accidentally shot and killed his dad whilst hunting. It followed him everywhere and impacted so much of his life:(. And I am sure there was so much more that I was never aware of. And that was a regular rifle! An Uzi?

 

I just don't get it. Really.

[Greta]

You may also remember this terrible story of an 8 year old accidentally killing himself with an uzi at a gun show.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-christopher-bizilj-died-firing-uzi-urged-son/story?id=12565132

 

I grew up in gun culture, but that meant kids shooting BB guns or pellet guns. It did not mean uzis. The world has gone mad.

[Just Kate]

Wow...that is just horrible. As a child, you trust those around you. Now she will have to live with this forever. 

[Mimm]

Wow. :-( I hope they get that girl into therapy immediately.

[Laurie]

Wow. :-( I hope they get that girl into therapy immediately.

 

And the parents, too.

 

 

 

 

 

Bullets and Burgers????   How very sad that someone thought this was a good idea for family entertainment...

 

[Dory]

That poor kid is going to be so messed up. Guns are a normal things up here but at 9 we allow our kids to shoot the pellet gun, not an uzi. Those poor families on both sides.

[chiguirre]

I disagree. I don't think the girl or her parents have anything at all to feel guilty about. They hired an instructor to teach her to fire the gun. The instructor worked at the range teaching newbies to fire Uzis. It was completely the instructor's responsibility to control the gun during instruction.

 

The family thought this was a fun tourist activity. I could easily see myself signing up T for that experience if it was something she expressed an interest in. I really would think that a gun instructor at a range knows what he or she is doing. It would not have occurred to me that a professional instructor was actually incompetent and dangerous. If I was the girl or her parents, I'd be deeply grateful that the instructor's mistake only cost his life.

[Just Kate]

I disagree. I don't think the girl or her parents have anything at all to feel guilty about. They hired an instructor to teach her to fire the gun. The instructor worked at the range teaching newbies to fire Uzis. It was completely the instructor's responsibility to control the gun during instruction.

 

The family thought this was a fun tourist activity. I could easily see myself signing up T for that experience if it was something she expressed an interest in. I really would think that a gun instructor at a range knows what he or she is doing. It would not have occurred to me that a professional instructor was actually incompetent and dangerous. If I was the girl or her parents, I'd be deeply grateful that the instructor's mistake only cost his life.

 

I agree with you, but...no matter who is truly (legally?) at fault, that little girl killed someone! Her parents and the instructor gave this little girl a weapon that she had no business using and allowed her to actually KILL a person!!! She is not at fault at all. But she will be scarred for life. :(

[Word Nerd]

Here is their website. How...odd. And what a horrifying accident.

 

Photo deleted.

[Dory]

I disagree. I don't think the girl or her parents have anything at all to feel guilty about. They hired an instructor to teach her to fire the gun. The instructor worked at the range teaching newbies to fire Uzis. It was completely the instructor's responsibility to control the gun during instruction.

 

The family thought this was a fun tourist activity. I could easily see myself signing up T for that experience if it was something she expressed an interest in. I really would think that a gun instructor at a range knows what he or she is doing. It would not have occurred to me that a professional instructor was actually incompetent and dangerous. If I was the girl or her parents, I'd be deeply grateful that the instructor's mistake only cost his life.

I don't think that kid has anything to feel guilty about either, but if you shoot someone and kill them, that would mess up most adults. This is a kid who is going to naturally be rather egocentric. If she had seen someone else shooting him, even if it was an accident, it would mess her up. She is going to need counseling after this.

[mamajag]

Tragic and just plain stupid. No way should that child have been shooting such a powerful weapon. That poor girl is going to have to live with the consequences of her parents' poor judgment. :(

 

I do allow my 8 and 10 yo to shoot, but they shoot a .22 rifle. It kicks about the same as a pellet gun. We use them to teach gun safety. There are a lot of guns in our house, and even though we lock them up we want them to not be stupid should they end up around an unsecured gun. That is very likely in our area of the US.

[umsami]

I know a few people who grew up in hunting families.  They were exposed to guns early, but there was a strong culture of gun safety.  My friend said if they even pointed a gun (loaded or unloaded) at another human being, their Dad took away their right to touch a gun for an entire year.  If they accessed their guns without parental approval/supervision, they lost the right.   My feeling was that as hunters, they knew very well a gun's ability to take a life..of human or animal.  I think part of the problem of the gun culture today (and not sure if I'm wording this in the right way, so apologies in advance)…it's more about having the weapons (and sometimes as many as possible) then respecting what they can do and what they're designed to do.  

 

I can't see any of my friends' ever giving a child an Uzi.  

 

While I think that the gun range's policy is to blame, and the instructor…it's a tragedy all around.  The instructor paid with his life.  The girl will live with this the rest of her life.  How horrible. 

[chiguirre]

I agree with you, but...no matter who is truly (legally?) at fault, that little girl killed someone! Her parents and the instructor gave this little girl a weapon that she had no business using and allowed her to actually KILL a person!!! She is not at fault at all. But she will be scarred for life. :(

The instructor had his arms around the girl and was helping her hold the gun. She didn't have the gun, or at least she wasn't the one who was "in control" of it. That's why I don't think she bears any part of the blame. I hope she doesn't feel guilty about it or need therapy. If I was her mother I would emphasize the fact that the instructor was supposed to control the gun and didn't. It was completely his fault.

[mom2scouts]

I have 5 kids who shoot.  I recently let my 11 year old go to an event where he shot muzzleloaders, shotguns, and air rifles.  My teens have shot military grade machine guns (OK, one of them is actually in the Army, but the other was just at a shooting sports event.)  Some guns have a kickback that make them hard to control.  I would think twice about letting a child that young shoot a weapon with that amount of power and kickback, but she was being closely supervised by a trained instructor.  Unfortunately, the mistake was his and he paid for it with his life.  He should have been helping her control the kickback, but she had already shot the gun a few times, so maybe he thought she could handle it.  It's very sad for both families.

[Just Kate]

The instructor had his arms around the girl and was helping her hold the gun. She didn't have the gun, or at least she wasn't the one who was "in control" of it. That's why I don't think she bears any part of the blame. I hope she doesn't feel guilty about it or need therapy. If I was her mother I would emphasize the fact that the instructor was supposed to control the gun and didn't. It was completely his fault.

Again, I don't blame her at all. Even if she was holding the gun by herself, I still wouldn't blame her. What a stupid idea to give a 9 year old an Uzi and allow her to shoot it??? I'm not talking about blame...I'm talking about this little girl and the life that she will lead. Not only did she witness someone die from gun shot (that alone is terrible), she knows that she was the one shooting the weapon! 

 

And by the way, I come from a pro-gun culture and I am pro-gun myself. But this entire situation is ridiculous!!!

[Farrar]

But why an uzi? Why a machine gun? That's the part I don't get. My father hunts and owns guns. When I was a kid, he let me shoot a BB gun and he wouldn't let us go anywhere even close to the other guns. I guess I don't have a problem with young people learning to fire some guns with extremely close supervision, but why guns that are this dangerous, that are weapons of war? Why not fire guns that are made for hunting, guns that don't fire repeatedly over and over like this so if you lose control. 8 and 9 yos have such underdeveloped motor skills - especially these days when so many aren't allowed to do things kids of a couple of generations ago did, like carry and use pocketknives. It just seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

:(

 

I agree that I don't understand this type of gun culture.

[Dory]

I know a few people who grew up in hunting families.  They were exposed to guns early, but there was a strong culture of gun safety.  My friend said if they even pointed a gun (loaded or unloaded) at another human being, their Dad took away their right to touch a gun for an entire year.  If they accessed their guns without parental approval/supervision, they lost the right.   My feeling was that as hunters, they knew very well a gun's ability to take a life..of human or animal.  I think part of the problem of the gun culture today (and not sure if I'm wording this in the right way, so apologies in advance)…it's more about having the weapons (and sometimes as many as possible) then respecting what they can do and what they're designed to do.  

 

I can't see any of my friends' ever giving a child an Uzi.  

 

While I think that the gun range's policy is to blame, and the instructor…it's a tragedy all around.  The instructor paid with his life.  The girl will live with this the rest of her life.  How horrible. 

I agree. The culture has taken a powerful tool and turned it into a collectors item and hobby. People have lost the respect that goes with good gun safety and the knowledge that this is a powerful tool with the potential to kill.

[Mrs Mungo]

Gun ranges where you can shoot all kinds of weapons are popular in international tourist destinations and are mostly geared toward international tourists who aren't normally exposed to guns. There are quite a few gun ranges in Honolulu. They have people out on corners handing out post cards and coupons. The same is true in Vegas. I wouldn't necessarily expect the parents to know the difference in kick or control between a .22 and an Uzi. It isn't always a real informed decision.

 

I have a hard time imagining how he was shot, if his arms were around the girl and his hands on the weapon?

[celticmom]

I am generally supportive of guns and their responsible use and even age appropriate gun safety training and use. That said I would regard pellet/bb guns age appropriate at 9. I would want bone growth to have finished and bone density and muscle development to be at their maximum before trying to shoot an automatic weapon. Even without a news making tragedy I wonder how many broken bones and other impact injuries have resulted from stunts like this. 

 

My condolences to all involved.

[mathnerd]

A child thinking that it is a cool thing to fire an Uzi and the parents videotaping it (to post it on Facebook?) is stupidity. What on earth was a 9 year old doing with a machine gun? Why? What is so cool about it now that someone has been killed? This sounds as stupid as someone sending their children inside a lion's cage in the zoo and justifying that the zookeeper was present when that happened. The parents are at fault. They endangered the child as well because if the gun that was out of control had turned on her, she would have been killed instead of the instructor. This culture of shooting powerful weapons is too weird and I will never understand why people do it.

[MrsMommy]

The instructor had his arms around the girl and was helping her hold the gun. She didn't have the gun, or at least she wasn't the one who was "in control" of it. That's why I don't think she bears any part of the blame. I hope she doesn't feel guilty about it or need therapy. If I was her mother I would emphasize the fact that the instructor was supposed to control the gun and didn't. It was completely his fault.

 

I don't think the child should be blamed here, but I really hope she *does* need therapy. I'd be concerned about any nine-year-old that could see that happen and walk away without any kind of professional help. I'd need therapy for something like that, and I'm an adult who should have good coping mechanisms that a child wouldn't have developed yet.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I just read about this!

 

Horrific, just horrific! Like many of you, I can't understand why teach a 9 year old to shoot an Uzi. That mystifies me. I feel awful she will have to live with this forever, and I hope she gets some counseling/therapy so she knows she's not at fault. To live with that kind of guilt would be awful.

[Laurie]

I just read about this!

 

Horrific, just horrific! Like many of you, I can't understand why teach a 9 year old to shoot an Uzi. That mystifies me. I feel awful she will have to live with this forever, and I hope she gets some counseling/therapy so she knows she's not at fault. To live with that kind of guilt would be awful.

 

I had only read the article this morning but I just watched the video that leads up to, but doesn't include,  the accident.   It was even more shocking to see that little girl with a ponytail and pink shorts...that's what I looked like at that age!   Seeing that big man helping her to hold a machine gun...I will never be able to understand this. 

 

A few weeks ago I was watching Sean Hannity when he was in Israel.   He was visiting an indoor recreation center built for the children in a border town where it isn't safe for the children to play outside.   Apparently the architect who designed the center planned to have a merry-go-round but the IDF wouldn't approve that...it would take 25 seconds for the merry-go-round to stop and the children would only have 15 seconds to take cover.   

But in our country,  let your kid have fun outdoors with war toys at Burgers and Bullets. 

 

 

 

[Greta]

I disagree. I don't think the girl or her parents have anything at all to feel guilty about. They hired an instructor to teach her to fire the gun. The instructor worked at the range teaching newbies to fire Uzis. It was completely the instructor's responsibility to control the gun during instruction.

 

The family thought this was a fun tourist activity. I could easily see myself signing up T for that experience if it was something she expressed an interest in. I really would think that a gun instructor at a range knows what he or she is doing. It would not have occurred to me that a professional instructor was actually incompetent and dangerous. If I was the girl or her parents, I'd be deeply grateful that the instructor's mistake only cost his life.

 

I agree that the girl does not shoulder any of the burden of guilt, but that doesn't mean she won't feel guilty or traumatized, of course.

 

I disagree that the parents don't have anything to feel guilty about, or that it shouldn't have occurred to them that the instructor was incompetent and dangerous.  Any gun instructor who thinks it's okay to put an uzi in the hands of a child absolutely fits the definition of incompetent and dangerous, in my opinion.  

 

In the related story that I linked to, the gun instructor tried to warn the father, twice, that his son was too young and small to handle and uzi.  The father insisted.  No doubt of the father's culpability in that case.  But even in this more recent case, I'd say that the parents could have had enough sense to know to walk away from a place that puts weaponry that powerful into the hands of little kids.  

 

The instructor shoulders the majority of the blame.  And he paid for it with his life.

 

I truly feel sorry for everyone involved.  Everyone.  But feeling sorry for them doesn't mean they don't bear some of the responsibility for what happened.

[Scrub Jay]

The instructor had his arms around the girl and was helping her hold the gun. She didn't have the gun, or at least she wasn't the one who was "in control" of it. That's why I don't think she bears any part of the blame. I hope she doesn't feel guilty about it or need therapy. If I was her mother I would emphasize the fact that the instructor was supposed to control the gun and didn't. It was completely his fault.

 

Who in this thread has blamed the little girl??  The adults are to blame - the instructor for agreeing to do this and also her parents for signing her up.  Common sense was clearly missing here.

 

[mom2scouts]

I just read a news report saying the instructor had just changed the gun from semi-automatic to automatic right before he was shot.  So the girl had been shooting in one mode and was probably not prepared for the difference. 

[Ewe Mama]

How terrible. What an awful thing for a child to have to carry all her life.

[Mergath]

But why an uzi? Why a machine gun? That's the part I don't get. My father hunts and owns guns. When I was a kid, he let me shoot a BB gun and he wouldn't let us go anywhere even close to the other guns. I guess I don't have a problem with young people learning to fire some guns with extremely close supervision, but why guns that are this dangerous, that are weapons of war? Why not fire guns that are made for hunting, guns that don't fire repeatedly over and over like this so if you lose control. 8 and 9 yos have such underdeveloped motor skills - especially these days when so many aren't allowed to do things kids of a couple of generations ago did, like carry and use pocketknives. It just seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

:(

 

I agree that I don't understand this type of gun culture.

 

Exactly.  I grew up in northern MN and so was surrounded by rifles and shotguns throughout my childhood, and I was in the Army in my early twenties.  I can't imagine any situation where a civilian would ever need to know how to shoot an Uzi.  The whole thing is idiotic.  I wish these kinds of weapons were completely banned outside the military.  Keep your rifles and handguns if it makes you feel safer, but really, an Uzi???

[SemiSweet]

The gun culture in this country has gone completely crazy. Everyday there are gun "accidents" due to improper use. I don't get it and I was raised in a home with firearms and have shot quite a few myself. Those parents definitely shoulder some of the blame, I do not see any way that it seems like a good idea to give a small child an automatic weapon. :(

[Mrs Mungo]

I wish these kinds of weapons were completely banned outside the military.  Keep your rifles and handguns if it makes you feel safer, but really, an Uzi???

I tend to agree.

[poppy]

I think any parent who would think having a young child shoot a very powerful deadly weapon for fun and entertainment is making a poor choice. What a thing to do . It mostly makes me think of child soldiers forced to deal with those weapons - that is basically trafficking and abuse. Who would think that this was a fun family entertainment instead?

 

I drove a Ferrari at a race course (controlled environment) with an instructor once . I was an adult at the time. It was exhilarating and thrilling. That same activity with a 9 year old would be criminal. Why is an Uzi different?

[HS Mom in NC]

This is crazy by gun advocate standards.  At 9 I was shooting a .22 with very little kick.  Kids had to have a lot more physical strength and body weight to move up to a shot gun in the teen years. The petite women in my family used a shot gun that was cut down to fit us.  My brother was shooting his SWAT team friend's semi automatic weaponry as an adult. Also, before I did any shooting I was taken on a hunt so I could see what those weapons do to dinner.  No unrealistic expectations there.

[Seasider]

I believe folks should have to pass a math test before firing an automatic weapon at a range. Force of kickback from an Uzi versus body weight of a slight 9yo = accident waiting to happen.

 

It's tragic. I believe in the right to bear arms; I believe in responsible hunting for youth. "Uzi" doesn't factor into recreational shooting sports on any level, IMO. What a terrible, avoidable tragedy.

[Tangerine]

Really poor timing. http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/nra-arizona-uzi-tweet-guns

[Ravin]

Children have no business handling weapons of war. Low calibre hunting weapons, yes.

 

I do, however, think such weapons should absolutely be legal for adults to possess, because the fundamental reason for U.S. constitutional protection of ownership of firearms is to ensure the right of the people to armed rebellion should it ever again be appropriate. A disarmed polity is a disempowered one.

 

But nine year olds should not be handling weapons of war in any event.

[Cinder]

:crying:  Tragic.

[poppy]

Children have no business handling weapons of war. Low calibre hunting weapons, yes.

 

I do, however, think such weapons should absolutely be legal for adults to possess, because the fundamental reason for U.S. constitutional protection of ownership of firearms is to ensure the right of the people to armed rebellion should it ever again be appropriate. A disarmed polity is a disempowered one.

 

But nine year olds should not be handling weapons of war in any event.

You really think this is the place for a 2nd amendment debate? Or do you genuinely believe most people agree with that definition??

[OneStepAtATime]

I just read a news report saying the instructor had just changed the gun from semi-automatic to automatic right before he was shot.  So the girl had been shooting in one mode and was probably not prepared for the difference. 

Actually, if you watch the video, you can see her fire the one shot, then you can see him do something to the gun.  It appears that he switches it to automatic.  The video is cut at that point but the news is stating he dies right afterwards so yes, it does appear that he switched it from semi-automatic to automatic without her being prepared for the change.  He was also standing right next to her and to her left, essentially in the line of fire if she loses control.  He should have been slightly behind and to the right.  The instructor appears to have made a terrible mistake and lost his life for it.  And probably permanently affected a child's emotional state, along with her family.

 

What a terrible tragedy.

[SemiSweet]

I seriously cannot even understand why this is legal. We don't let children drive, drink alcohol, heck even ride bikes without helmets, but they can go to a firing range and use a weapon that most adults don't even know how to use. What in the heck?! The more I think about it, the angrier I feel. :(

[Farrar]

You really think this is the place for a 2nd amendment debate? Or do you genuinely believe most people agree with that definition??

 

I'm not sure if there's any way it won't become one. People have already said up thread that they don't believe any private citizens should really have these sorts of weapons.

 

I'm afraid to know what the gun lobby will say about this incident. The mood in this thread seems to be very much that children this young shouldn't have access to these weapons. It's hard for me to understand who thought this was appropriate at all. But I sadly can't imagine the gun lobby in this country saying that.

[Scrub Jay]

I'm not sure if there's any way it won't become one. People have already said up thread that they don't believe any private citizens should really have these sorts of weapons.

 

I'm afraid to know what the gun lobby will say about this incident. The mood in this thread seems to be very much that children this young shouldn't have access to these weapons. It's hard for me to understand who thought this was appropriate at all. But I sadly can't imagine the gun lobby in this country saying that.

 

Well, 2 whole days after the incident there was this NRA tweet: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/nra-children-gun-range_n_5725674.html

[Laurie]

I seriously cannot even understand why this is legal. We don't let children drive, drink alcohol, heck even ride bikes without helmets, but they can go to a firing range and use a weapon that most adults don't even know how to use. What in the heck?! The more I think about it, the angrier I feel.

 

 

Me too.  

 

Even if the parents are total idiots, you would think that the ex-military "instructor" would have more sense.   And I don't really like the word instructor...how much instruction do people at a place like that really get anyway?  

And I made the mistake of looking at their website.  They offer sniper training adventures and really make a big deal about the military experience of the employee(s).  

 

I hope the girl's parents and/or the family of the dead man lawyer up and sue the owner.  

[Farrar]

Well, 2 whole days after the incident there was this NRA tweet: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/nra-children-gun-range_n_5725674.html

 

:thumbdown: Sometimes I feel like everyone in this country is just working as hard as they can to chase everyone out of the center, away from reason, and into their extremest corners.

[AndyJoy]

What a terrible thing for a 9yo to have to live with for the rest of her life.

Seriously. This is why we are supposed to have grownups.