Purity balls (dances)

[Mergath]

I think the entire idea of purity balls and rings is creepy - but we do teach sexual purity and abstinence (although not in the same capacity as this, by a long shot - there will never be any "pledging" of virginity from my daughter to her father, lol.

 

I think many of us, Christian or not, teach it to some extent.  But the difference between me and the people in the article is that I plan on teaching my dd that SHE has value, not her virginity.  And having sex when she's old enough, regardless of the situation, doesn't mean she somehow loses her value.  But I do hope she values herself enough to save sex for those she truly cares about.

 

That's what is so icky about the whole thing.  It's like girls have no value without their virginity.  Honestly, I'd like to slap the person who came up with the idea of virginity in the first place.  It's such an idiotic idea, that there's this line you can't uncross when it comes to sex.

[Mergath]

Growing up in a church that embraced the purity movement, (back before the balls were popular), and being repeatedly assaulted in that church, I can answer this one. You absolutely hide the assault. Because if people find out they will judge you impure and know that you are not a "good Christian". The other reason to keep it hidden is the risk of being assaulted again by someone who holds the belief that your value is now less.

 

I'm so sorry.  :grouphug:

[AimeeM]

I think many of us, Christian or not, teach it to some extent.  But the difference between me and the people in the article is that I plan on teaching my dd that SHE has value, not her virginity.  And having sex when she's old enough, regardless of the situation, doesn't mean she somehow loses her value.  But I do hope she values herself enough to save sex for those she truly cares about.

 

That's what is so icky about the whole thing.  It's like girls have no value without their virginity.  Honestly, I'd like to slap the person who came up with the idea of virginity in the first place.  It's such an idiotic idea, that there's this line you can't uncross when it comes to sex.

 

We teach abstinence until marriage, so I think we *may* teach things a *bit* differently (regarding your comment about "old enough, regardless of situation"); we would never, however, attach her virginity to her value as a person. In general, although we teach her that TeA before marriage is a wrong decision, and our reasons *why*, we try never to attach single bad decisions in general (no matter what they are) to a person's worth or value.

 

[Mergath]

We teach abstinence until marriage, so I think we *may* teach things a *bit* differently (regarding your comment about "old enough, regardless of situation"); we would never, however, attach her virginity to her value as a person. In general, although we teach her that TeA before marriage is a wrong decision, and our reasons *why*, we try never to attach single bad decisions in general (no matter what they are) to a person's worth or value.

 

 

Right, but we all probably teach some variation of, "Don't throw yourself at the first person who crosses your path the second you hit puberty."  The details differ, but the general idea is similar.  We want our kids to value themselves enough to not let others use them for sex, whether it's God, common sense, or a combination of both behind it.

[Papillon Mom]

Don't you think this is also a way to have a uber religious version of the prom? Very sick, I agree!

[ktgrok]

You are probably right. I can't imagine why anyone thinks these purity balls are a good idea. They're sooooo creepy. I was just trying to think of why this has been such an issue for so many (hundreds of?) years? The only thing I could think of is the fact of a pregnancy. A baby is such a game changer.

 

All I know is that I get SO FED UP with the bizarre things Christians do that is so far from what Jesus was about, like these purity balls. Drives me a little bonkers. I was just trying to consider what would even prompt these actions. I still think the basic idea is that sex=pregnancy and sex is so difficult to resist, so how does someone resist in order not to become pregnant. The purity balls are a bizarre extreme or twist on a healthy education about the risks of sex before one is ready for the consequences.

 

Obviously, you would teach both boys and girls, but boys can always get a girl pregnant and then bow out of the picture. The girl doesn't have that option, unless she opts for abortion or adoption. For some, that is not an option. So, I guess the focus started more with girls because the consequence is greater.

 

I'm talking in circles. I'm just saying bottomline that I can understand why there is a focus on sexual sins over other sins, BUT these purity balls take it to a distorted level.

 

And then I don't understand the hullabaloo over gay "sins." That's where my argument falls apart. There is no pregnancy in gay sex, so why the hyper focus on it? Probably because our sex drives are generally so strong that we react stronger over sexual topics than other topics. Then again, the drive to eat and drink is probably the very strongest drive (unless you hear about that mouse that could touch a lever that gave it an orgasm vs a lever that fed the mouse--didn't the mouse starve to death because it only wanted the orgasm and stopped eating? Or is that all confused in my mind?)

 

I think it is because it is easier to moralize on sins you are not facing yourself. So a married man doesn't have to worry about premarital sex, so he can be all judgemental about it. A straight person can be all judgemental about homosexual sex because they aren't tempted towards it. I greatly respected that CS Lewis ignored certain sins in Mere Christianity because he said he woudln't talk about sins he wasn't tempted to himself.

[ktgrok]

I know everyone already knows this, but this is a very extreme portion of the uber-conservative church.

 

There are those who are raised to believe in waiting til marriage to have sex, and they were taught in a totally non-patriarchal, non-shaming, manner, and grew up not scarred about it whether they chose to follow that path or not. Granted, in those circles, the boys were just as much taught as the girls, and there was no such purity ball nonsense.

 

And we aren't all like that. Again, I know everyone knows that. I just get so annoyed - not with you guys - but with those who try to pretend they represent all Christians with ridiculous practices. They give everyone else a bad name.

Like I said, I know you guys know that.... I guess I'm just venting. :)

 

I feel you! I also am teaching my kids to wait until marriage. But not this crazy stuff! No shaming, just "this is the right way, best way, to do things"

[Colleen]

"Purity balls" ~ hahahaha!!!!  I could get a heckuvva lotta mileage out of that term.  Suddenly I'm reminded of the 1974 Weight Watchers recipe card for fish balls...

 

 

[PeacefulChaos]

I think many of us, Christian or not, teach it to some extent.  But the difference between me and the people in the article is that I plan on teaching my dd that SHE has value, not her virginity.  And having sex when she's old enough, regardless of the situation, doesn't mean she somehow loses her value.  But I do hope she values herself enough to save sex for those she truly cares about.

 

That's what is so icky about the whole thing.  It's like girls have no value without their virginity.  Honestly, I'd like to slap the person who came up with the idea of virginity in the first place.  It's such an idiotic idea, that there's this line you can't uncross when it comes to sex.

Yes, this!

I think being online has made me more aware of the craze out there and has made me vocal in my support of any and all teaching - religious or not - not undermining a girl's value.

[trulycrabby]

Growing up in a church that embraced the purity movement, (back before the balls were popular), and being repeatedly assaulted in that church, I can answer this one. You absolutely hide the assault. Because if people find out they will judge you impure and know that you are not a "good Christian". The other reason to keep it hidden is the risk of being assaulted again by someone who holds the belief that your value is now less.

:grouphug:

[SadieMarie]

I am so sorry BLA5, so very sorry.

 

I don't care if my daughters wait until marriage.  I care that they are independent, strong and careful and that they choose partners who respect and value them.  And I hope they will treat their partners the same way.   If they want to wait until marriage I will support that, but it is not something that will come from me.  Safety, common sense and respect are my messages.  And I hope dh and I have modeled a relationship of love and respect.  The idea of a purity ball, as described in the article, is so foreign and strange to me.  It is like reading about another culture.  It is another culture, not one that is anything like the one I belong to.  

[Dana]

"Purity balls" ~ hahahaha!!!! I could get a heckuvva lotta mileage out of that term. Suddenly I'm reminded of the 1974 Weight Watchers recipe card for fish balls...

The book is even better!

[meena]

Our church just finished a short series for the middle school set about purity. It's emphasis is on purity in general--choosing to stay away from different kinds of sins and temptations, not just purity in sexual matters. One part of the series that I like is specific teaching that even when a person has done things that can make him/her feel worthless (either self-guilt or coming from others), God always values people and sees our worth as his precious children despite our blemishes (true or merely perceived). That makes me so sad to hear that isn't often a part of purity messages.

 

There is no ball or father/daughter ceremony at our church (thankfully, because EWWWWW!), but I do think they are planning on having a special class with possibly a commitment made to stay pure (once again, not speaking solely of sexual purity). My DD is 11 and extremely naive/innocent at this point, especially compared to her peers in public school. I don't think she's anywhere near having the emotional or spiritual maturity to know what all purity really entails, nor do I think she is at the point to commit to something that she doesn't fully grasp. So no class, but we will continue to talk about purity in its many forms to her, as well as her brothers, and should they want to make a commitment later we will support them. We absolutely don't want them to make any commitment based on peer, parent, or church pressure. That's just a guilt-trip waiting to happen.

[Cammie]

Ick, ick, ick.

 

Not planning on telling my dd she should wait until marriage.  Or my ds for that matter.  Would love for them to delay marriage until they have their personalities and dreams figured out.  More important for me is that DD figures out her career plans and gets them rolling before marriage and a family.  I certainly don't expect that they would forestall physical intimacy with another adult until that time.

 

Planning on telling them that it is better with someone you love and that there are certain physical dangers that should be addressed through appropriate use of condoms and birth control.  I would suggest waiting until they are 18 so that they have the mental maturity to deal with all the issues that arise when you start down this road.

 

 

[Kerileanne99]

Elizabeth Smart has actually spoken a lot about how the whole "used goods" philosophy to "virginity above all" harmed her and made her feel worthless when she was abducted and raped.

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/05/06/elizabeth_smart_abstinence_only_sex_education_hurts_victims_of_rape_and.html

 

"When Smart spoke at a Johns Hopkins University panel last week, she explained one of the factors deterring her from escaping her attacker: She felt so worthless after being raped that she felt unfit to return to her society, which had communicated some hard and fast rules about premarital sexual contact.

 

“I remember in school one time, I had a teacher who was talking about abstinence,†Smart told the panel. “And she said, ‘Imagine you’re a stick of gum. When you engage in sex, that’s like getting chewed. And if you do that lots of times, you’re going to become an old piece of gum, and who is going to want you after that?’ Well, that’s terrible. No one should ever say that. But for me, I thought, ‘I’m that chewed-up piece of gum.’ Nobody re-chews a piece of gum. You throw it away. And that’s how easy it is to feel you no longer have worth. Your life no longer has value.â€"

This was exactly my thought when reading the article. I totally agree with discussing the repercussions of sex with children of both sexes from a very young age. But this type of thing makes me squeamish😷. It is about guilting and shaming a child into 'waiting.' It is NOT healthy.

 

And the reality is many of these girls will probably NOT end up as virgins on their wedding night, for whatever reason. I just cannot imagine why you would set out to guilt/shame/manipulate your child into that when they are really too young and inexperienced to understand. The psychological torment you are inflicting upon a child who may/may not 'slip' and do something we are biologically programmed to do! If it were not fraught with religious and moral implications, if this particular ceremony were about anything outside that realm, many would lend their voice to the borderline(?) abuse that this is.

[Audrey]

"Purity balls" ~ hahahaha!!!!  I could get a heckuvva lotta mileage out of that term.  Suddenly I'm reminded of the 1974 Weight Watchers recipe card for fish balls...

 

 

Agreed!  The jokes just kind of write themselves.  :lol:

[Dmmetler]

I'm pretty convinced the best "Safe Sex" lecture my DD could have gotten has come from animal breeders and vets. She's heard a lot of horror stories and seen pictures of animals bred too young, to animals of drastically different size, and just plain the dangers of irresponsible breeding when you cannot take good care of the offspring and don't have places to place them.

 

The result is that she's pretty convinced that humans shouldn't breed until they have a stable job, house with yard and income (agree with the job and income, owning a house might be stretching it), that they should be fully physically mature, which she defines as "About 30" (admittedly, I didn't have her until 32, but she has a decent number of friends who's parents are only in their early 30s now), and that if you don't want to breed you should get neutered or simply not be with a male when you're in heat-and humans are in heat ALL  THE TIME,mom! (Yeah, need to talk about birth control options).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

 

Elizabeth Smart has actually spoken a lot about how the whole "used goods" philosophy to "virginity above all" harmed her and made her feel worthless when she was abducted and raped.  

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/05/06/elizabeth_smart_abstinence_only_sex_education_hurts_victims_of_rape_and.html

 

"When Smart spoke at a Johns Hopkins University panel last week, she explained one of the factors deterring her from escaping her attacker: She felt so worthless after being raped that she felt unfit to return to her society, which had communicated some hard and fast rules about premarital sexual contact.

“I remember in school one time, I had a teacher who was talking about abstinence,†Smart told the panel. “And she said, ‘Imagine you’re a stick of gum. When you engage in sex, that’s like getting chewed. And if you do that lots of times, you’re going to become an old piece of gum, and who is going to want you after that?’ Well, that’s terrible. No one should ever say that. But for me, I thought, ‘I’m that chewed-up piece of gum.’ Nobody re-chews a piece of gum. You throw it away. And that’s how easy it is to feel you no longer have worth. Your life no longer has value.â€"

 

 

as an active LDS woman i want to address this because elizabeth is also active lds.

 

this makes me so sad and very angry.  I want to know more about that stupid teacher.  this was a lesson she got in school - NOT church.  I honestly hope that teacher hears about this and realizes her stupid illiteration had such a negative impact on a CHILD.  maybe she'll learn something.

 

as LDS, we do have an expectation of complete chastity before marriage and complete fidelity within marriage, but:  (and I want to keep this relatively short.)

church teaching on rape is it is something horrible and the victim has done nothing wrong.  they (I'm not saying she, because even boys can get raped) have nothing to repent of.  that they should get the care and support they need to heal. we also believe God will help in that healing.

 

and for those who consensually engage in unchaste activities - well, that's why there was an atonement made by Jesus Christ. (and we all sin in someway). - so we can repent and receive forgiveness. if a person has sincerely repented (which requires real humilty - not the same thing as humiliation), because of the atonement, they can become as 'clean and pure' as if they had never engaged in unchaste activities in the first place.

 

oh - and those purity balls make me feel slimy.

 

eta: the standards are the same for male or female.  (those "purity balls" focus exclusively on teenage girls. what about the boys?)

 

[Seasider]

I once attended a wedding in this purity culture. Their purity was greatly exalted, with the pastor spending a lot of time talking it. Yes, the young couple achieved a personal goal, but it, ironically, made the first kiss seem obscene. Like we were all witness to what should have been a very special and private moment between the couple.

 

It also set the scene for many in the crowd to feel rather like failures and thus second-rate. 

[TravelingChris]

I can't even imagine the horror of not having kissed your future husband before your wedding ceremony.  As an introvert who prefers not to be on display, this practice would have had me running, I think. 

[Retired]

This disgusts me. I grew up in a southern conservative family. Abstinence was preached, PREACHED. I found myself pregnant after dating my now DH for four years. Although most now would say, eh, you should have just married sooner or you were responsible and knew you wanted to have a relationship with him, etc... the teachings of my youth scarred me. I felt dirty and shameful even after marriage. I understand why abstinence is taught. I get it. Totally. I get it. However, it hurt our marriage. When a beautiful thing is painted so horrific and sinful and never taught about how beautiful it is after marriage, there is bound to be issues.

 

Eta: we are great now. Just first few years were rough. I dealt with some emotional baggage and guilt.

 

I think we've posted similar stuff on Duggard thread.  I went through years of low self esteem, letting guys treat me as less than because I did't stay a virgin and thought I deserved the crap.  It followed into my marriage which was a mess for a lot of years.

 

Growing up in a church that embraced the purity movement, (back before the balls were popular), and being repeatedly assaulted in that church, I can answer this one. You absolutely hide the assault. Because if people find out they will judge you impure and know that you are not a "good Christian". The other reason to keep it hidden is the risk of being assaulted again by someone who holds the belief that your value is now less.

  :grouphug:

 

I don't have girls but have raised 2 young men.   I'm a Christian and conservative in many ways.  The difference in how I raised my boys is that yes the bible gives us guidelines regarding all types of sins.  They are there to help protect us from hurt and difficulties.  They are not a sentience  to hell.  They do not define you.  I've always say that Jesus loves you know matter your circumstance, your past or your future.  He is a kind loving father.  I"ve been born again for 14 years and know  true joy, love and peace.  I hate that so many have never been introduced or open their heart to the true Holy Spirit (Jesus trinity)  I know it sound complicated but once you just accept in faith its amazing. 

 

The very Christian church movement with the purity balls seem rather "sick"  I know that for myself my promiscuity came from "daddy issues"  He was very mean  and very fundamental Christian .   I kind of see the purity ball stuff a more passive  attempt at the crap my dad loaded on my conscience.  When I started dating my husband at 17. He would call me a tramp and stuff.  I left religion at 14 although I had to continue to attend service until I could leave home. 

 

I'm still not much into denominations.  I am a Christian.  I love Jesus and really don't like how "church men"  seem to think they are "god".  They would do a lot better to just give their children unconditional love.  The rebellions and bad choices seem to happen a lot less in less strict  homes.  IMO

 

.

 

This was exactly my thought when reading the article. I totally agree with discussing the repercussions of sex with children of both sexes from a very young age. But this type of thing makes me squeamish😷. It is about guilting and shaming a child into 'waiting.' It is NOT healthy.

 

And the reality is many of these girls will probably NOT end up as virgins on their wedding night, for whatever reason. I just cannot imagine why you would set out to guilt/shame/manipulate your child into that when they are really too young and inexperienced to understand. The psychological torment you are inflicting upon a child who may/may not 'slip' and do something we are biologically programmed to do! If it were not fraught with religious and moral implications, if this particular ceremony were about anything outside that realm, many would lend their voice to the borderline(?) abuse that this is.

 

[gardenmom5]

I can't even imagine the horror of not having kissed your future husband before your wedding ceremony.  As an introvert who prefers not to be on display, this practice would have had me running, I think. 

 

from the time he was young, dh grew up in a very close knit group of four - one was female.  she and one of the guys eventually became engaged.  they never even kissed (no one was telling them it was a bad thing before marriage, it was their choice.).   they ended up breaking up two weeks before the wedding.  (not because they hadn't kissed, but because they really weren't right for each other.)  dh was in the middle of the whole thing as he heard everything from both sides.  the first time they saw each other after that was nearly ten years later at my wedding.  they talked a l.o.n.g. time.  they even eventually became potential guardians for each other's children.  (never needed to.)

 

she has said the fact they never even kissed, made it so much easier to become "just friends" after they broke up.

 

I have great respect for both of them.  she ended up marrying a man who is absolutely perfect for her, much more so than the first guy.   (he's a great guy, just not for her.)

 

the minister making a big deal AT THE WEDDING out of a couple's first kiss is icky.  but I've heard worse.  my sil's sil's (who probably ascribes to this 'purity" movement) minister read something about physical consumation of a relationship.  the couple asked him too, they even had it in their wedding announcement. THAT is obscene.

[FaithManor]

 

 

 

the minister making a big deal AT THE WEDDING out of a couple's first kiss is icky. but I've heard worse. my sil's sil's (who probably ascribes to this 'purity" movement) minister read something about physical consumation of a relationship. the couple asked him too, they even had it in their wedding announcement. THAT is obscene.

Gross! Truly inappropriate and indicitive of contractual marriages made for financial gain between parents in which a guarantee of consumation was required to legalize the contract! Sick!

[Ottakee]

  they never even kissed (no one was telling them it was a bad thing before marriage, it was their choice.).   they ended up breaking up two weeks before the wedding.  (not because they hadn't kissed, but because they really weren't right for each other.)  dh was in the middle of the whole thing as he heard everything from both sides.  the first time they saw each other after that was nearly ten years later at my wedding.  they talked a l.o.n.g. time.  they even eventually became potential guardians for each other's children.  (never needed to.)

 

she has said the fact they never even kissed, made it so much easier to become "just friends" after they broke up.

 

I have great respect for both of them.  she ended up marrying a man who is absolutely perfect for her, much more so than the first guy.   (he's a great guy, just not for her.)

 

 

I think this is something important for teens and young adults to realize, if you end up breaking up, how will you feel seeing that other person in the future.........esp. if they are married and you are then married.  So many young people are giving away the intimacy that belongs with their spouse..............that doesnt' sound quite right but I hope you know what I mean.  Even if they don't cross "that line" there are still consequences of being too intimate with someone before marriage.

 

I am not saying that it is wrong to kiss before the wedding day, etc. but I hate seeing young people on the other side of the spectrum where hand holding, kissing, petting, and beyond are very causal things.

 

[Momof3]

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Edited May 3, 2022 by Momof3

[CaffeineDiary]

There's an old saying in anthropological circles:  if you want to know what sorts of crimes a society was plagued by, look at what they outlawed.

 

So, if you want to know what topics obsess these hyper-evangelical churchgoers...

 

In a weird way, part of why this squicks me out is it feels like it has a (subtle) nexus with "helicopter parenting".  The whole point of growing up is growing away from your parents and staking out your own identity and  individuality - emotionally, intellectually, and yes, sexually.  The part of these purity balls that I find so disturbing is that especially if "successful", they're a huge indicator to me of a complete failure to understand what it means to be a parent.  And yes, I'm being judgmental.

 

[thewaka]

I can't even imagine the horror of not having kissed your future husband before your wedding ceremony.  As an introvert who prefers not to be on display, this practice would have had me running, I think. 

 

We are teaching our children that they should wait until marriage. Unlike my parents, I am explaining *why* they should wait. The creep factor of everyone knowingly watching what should be a special and *private* moment (which might have been pointed out here at The Hive) is why I will be explaining to all of them why "remaining pure" does not include not kissing prior to the wedding, even if only the night before. DO NOT put that on display for everyone. Well, they can each choose whatever, but we certainly don't expect that level of waiting.

[ktgrok]

yeah. I would really really really like my kids to wait for marriage. As someone that got pregnant before marriage I have some experience in this area. I do believe this is a "safety" rule to some extent, it isn't because sex is awful or dirty, it's because it is serious and has consequences/effects including increasing feelings of love (oxytocin), pregnancy, etc. All of these are actually GOOD things in the context of marriage. But lead to complications, at best, outside of marriage. No shame, anymore than it is shameful to cross the street without looking both ways. 

[FaithManor]

I just have problems, huge problems even with the churches who don't do the icky ballsbut still hve any kind of public ceremony or pledging of any kind thatpertains to this.

 

First of all it sends a message that VERY personal and privte decisions are the business of the congregation.This is absolutely not the business of every Tom, Dick, and Harry and their visitors.It's not. Highly in appropriate and it sets kids up for judgment if something happens later and the busy body nosy nellies and nelsons find out about it.

 

Second with sexual assault\abuse rates hovering at 1:3 in some urban environments an 1:4 in other areas, this sets up an awful lot of youg people to feel they are worthless in the sight of God and the church because they cannot produce "pure" bodies.

 

Third, peerpressure and group think rules the day because these kids aren't stupid and they know that with good and righteous being attached to the kids with the "pure" bodies, they automatically the "unpure" ones. Since so much of their reputation within Chritianity rests on being in the good group, they know they have to go through this public spectacle in order to be accepted, and the very place they should be able to go for assistance, advice, love, compassion, and support becomes the last place they can ever admit that they need help.

 

Fourth, thus the church that puports to spread a message of hope, love, and grace is in actuality the place that instead of being hospital for the hurting, is the force that shoots the wounded.

 

The very fact that these kinds of ceremonies, teen seminars, purity talks to say nothing of icky purity balls are actually quite common despite the absolute stream of constant data on sex abuse, spiritual abuse, teen suicide rates and the like indicates that controlling and manipulating people, and in particular girls and women, is way more important to these churches than than actually caring about them.

 

I can unfortunately fathom how many people are profoundly hurt from that message.

[Melinda in VT]

as an active LDS woman i want to address this because elizabeth is also active lds.

 

this makes me so sad and very angry.  I want to know more about that stupid teacher.  this was a lesson she got in school - NOT church.  I honestly hope that teacher hears about this and realizes her stupid illiteration had such a negative impact on a CHILD.  maybe she'll learn something.

 

as LDS, we do have an expectation of complete chastity before marriage and complete fidelity within marriage, but:  (and I want to keep this relatively short.)

church teaching on rape is it is something horrible and the victim has done nothing wrong.  they (I'm not saying she, because even boys can get raped) have nothing to repent of.  that they should get the care and support they need to heal. we also believe God will help in that healing.

 

and for those who consensually engage in unchaste activities - well, that's why there was an atonement made by Jesus Christ. (and we all sin in someway). - so we can repent and receive forgiveness. if a person has sincerely repented (which requires real humilty - not the same thing as humiliation), because of the atonement, they can become as 'clean and pure' as if they had never engaged in unchaste activities in the first place.

 

oh - and those purity balls make me feel slimy.

 

eta: the standards are the same for male or female.  (those "purity balls" focus exclusively on teenage girls. what about the boys?)

 

 

That analogy (having pre-marital sex turns you into a chewed-up piece of gum) was pretty commonly used by LDS seminary teachers both in and out of Utah, at least back in the 1980s.

 

Hopefully this is changing.

 

 

[SeaConquest]

Gross! Truly inappropriate and indicitive of contractual marriages made for financial gain between parents in which a guarantee of consumation was required to legalize the contract! Sick!

Most weddings are dripped with patriarchy. A father giving away the bride. Unequal vows (to honor and obey the husband, but not vice versa). The pronouncement of Mr. and Mrs. His Name. This just seems par for the course to me.

[Ipsey]

That analogy (having pre-marital sex turns you into a chewed-up piece of gum) was pretty commonly used by LDS seminary teachers both in and out of Utah, at least back in the 1980s.

 

Hopefully this is changing.

 

 

 

Also the "licked cupcake" metaphor was pretty common LDS metaphor back when I was in high school and middle school. I had more than one LDS friend use this metaphor when we talked about sex. (If a girl has sex, it's like she's a licked cupcake. Someone else has made her gross and no one else will want her.)

 

This lesson was provided as a help in the Young Women's teaching manual.

 

Here's an interesting blog that addresses it and has a podcast to other LDS chastity metaphors.

 

I've never heard metaphors like this outside of religious training.  

 

http://standingsittinglying.wordpress.com/category/confessions-of-a-licked-cupcake/

[Tohru]

My unpoplular opinion:

I just want to toss in that some teen girls really want to go...my friend's 15yo daughter has a girlfriend that went to a Purity Ball with her father and my friend's 15yo begged to be able to go with her own papa even though they don't attend church and aren't religious.  She is in public school and constantly struggling with the over the top focus on sex in high school -who's doing it, who puts out, who's a prude- and she desparetly wanted to wear a Puirty ring and have the entire ceremony too.  So adults think it's creepy, however some girls really love the idea. 

 

And the term "boyfriend" - to most younger girls, that term means the guy they hang out with, the guy that gives them gifts and attention, the guy that they try to please with how they look and dress.  If these were grown women, of course boyfriend would mean something different to adults and it would be entirely inappropriate, but in this sitution, it kind of makes sense.   

[SeaConquest]

And the term "boyfriend" - to most younger girls, that term means the guy they hang out with, the guy that gives them gifts and attention, the guy that they try to please with how they look and dress.

I still think it's creepy to try to please your dad with your physical appearance. It's like my sons wanting to please me with their bulging muscles and six pack. This kind of objectification of children is gross IMO. I just want them to be happy, to be kind, to be ethical, and to find meaning and joy in their lives.

[Ottakee]

My unpoplular opinion:

I just want to toss in that some teen girls really want to go...my friend's 15yo daughter has a girlfriend that went to a Purity Ball with her father and my friend's 15yo begged to be able to go with her own papa even though they don't attend church and aren't religious.  She is in public school and constantly struggling with the over the top focus on sex in high school -who's doing it, who puts out, who's a prude- and she desparetly wanted to wear a Puirty ring and have the entire ceremony too.  So adults think it's creepy, however some girls really love the idea. 

 

And the term "boyfriend" - to most younger girls, that term means the guy they hang out with, the guy that gives them gifts and attention, the guy that they try to please with how they look and dress.  If these were grown women, of course boyfriend would mean something different to adults and it would be entirely inappropriate, but in this sitution, it kind of makes sense.   

 

I think there are a lot of girls out there that crave the love and attention of their fathers......not in a "boyfriend" way but rather as a protector and someone who loves them.

 

I like to see the father-daughter banquets, activities, etc.  I am ALL for purity before marriage (for boys and girls) but not the whole purity ball thing.  A better focus would be a nice father/daughter activity.

 

Sadly I do know girls that didnt' get much positive attention from their fathers growing up who attached themselves to the first boy/guy that paid attention to them and it was not a good situation.

 

[Garga]

I once attended a wedding in this purity culture. Their purity was greatly exalted, with the pastor spending a lot of time talking it. Yes, the young couple achieved a personal goal, but it, ironically, made the first kiss seem obscene. Like we were all witness to what should have been a very special and private moment between the couple.

This! Exactly!

 

When I got married I went to a very tiny church that was very different from the one I attend now. Without me knowing it ahead of time, the pastor who married us decided to give a little talk about sex and give us advice about it during the ceremony. I remember that he had asked me what I wanted him to say at the wedding. I said, "Whatever people normally say..." I didn't know what a pastor was supposed to say. My own wedding was the first wedding I attended. I figured he's say something about love or read a few scriptures about marriage.

 

In 21 years of marriage I've only watched my own wedding video once because I was so mortified at what he did and I can't bear to relive the moment. Something like that will ruin a wedding.

 

Actually, thinking this over, I just realized I'm finally over it. Cool. I think I can finally watch that video. But all through my 20s and 30s whenever I thought about my wedding I would cringe inside. I remember my best friend coming up to me and saying, "Interesting talk...." and raising her eyebrow. Oh it was mortifying. It would have made a funny sit-com, but IRL with my mom and dad and family and family friends there, it was just awful.

 

We don't go to a church like that anymore.

[albeto.]

 She is in public school and constantly struggling with the over the top focus on sex in high school -who's doing it, who puts out, who's a prude- 

 

Imagine a society in which virginity is no more indicative of one's value or character than whether or not they have ever painted their toenails. I imagine it would take a lot of wind out of these sails. 

[Mothersweets]

"Purity balls" makes me giggle. Are they held for fancy dress? (Cue Queen AC/DC...)

 

 

:lol: Good one!!

[WishboneDawn]

I think there are a lot of girls out there that crave the love and attention of their fathers......not in a "boyfriend" way but rather as a protector and someone who loves them.

 

I like to see the father-daughter banquets, activities, etc. I am ALL for purity before marriage (for boys and girls) but not the whole purity ball thing. A better focus would be a nice father/daughter activity.

 

Sadly I do know girls that didnt' get much positive attention from their fathers growing up who attached themselves to the first boy/guy that paid attention to them and it was not a good situation.

 

I can understand teaching your child to not have sex before marriage but I despise the word purity. I understand it's from the Bible and such but it's a horrid way to frame sexuality these days. Because of the baggage that immediately comes with doing anything that might damage the idea of purity. If I'm going to take lessons on sex and sexuality from the Bible I'll be going to Song of Songs and NOT Paul, thankyouverymuch. I'll pass that to my kids over a purity ring any day.

[Tohru]

NM

 

 

 

I know my opinion is unpopular with this thread and I don't want to debate :)

[Guest]

Recently, our church did a series for the 6th-12th graders about sex and dating.  This was done by our youth pastor and his wife...both just out of college a couple years ago and amazing AMAZING people.  They asked permission from all parents before their child could attend.  At the end of the series, they invited the kids and parents to a dinner.  We could choose to stand with the others and make a promise, but the promise was not like stated in the OP.  The kids promised to make good choices, and to come to us parents or the youth pastor/sponsors if they had concerns about doing something to compromise their faith.  The parents promised to be open and be there when their kids had questions, and not be judgemental if their child stumbled.  IF the parents chose to, the PARENTS (not just dad) could give their child something to symbolize that promise.  Some gave jewelry.  Mine chose new Bibles.  In no way did our kids feel pressured, and it didn't just focus on the girls. One of the male youth sponsors stood and talked to the boys.  He told them to be good examples, and even in dating, use the same respect towards women as the bible says to give your wife.  

[Plink]

Wow.  I doubt such an extreme focus on purity can have any positive long term impact.  It seems like a weird form of peer pressure but with sex and dads mixed in.  

 

How many of us have agreed to do something out of peer-pressure?  Agreeing to wear a ring or go to a party doesn't indicate a personal choice, it is following the crowd - exactly the opposite of this movement's intended result.  Learning to respectfully say no to someone you care for would be a better lesson to teach.

 

I'm a Christian.  I believe in talking to my kids about my beliefs, but I will NEVER encourage my kids to make a promise like that.  We all make mistakes.  I want my kids to know a God of grace, not a god of humiliation and shame.

[MFG]

I'm a Christian. I believe in talking to my kids about my beliefs, but I will NEVER encourage my kids to make a promise like that. We all make mistakes. I want my kids to know a God of grace, not a god of humiliation and shame.

I strongly agree with this. Making promises to 'be good' is a set up for failure. If a person can be 'good enough' just on the strength of good intentions, why do we need Christ?

[awisha.]

The infamous fish kiss :lol:

 

[FaithManor]

The above video is strong evidence that this should not be left to chance. Possibly forethought as to the comfort of guests combined with a practice or two would not have been out of order! EEEEEEKK!! And GACK!!

[Mandylubug]

The infamous fish kiss :lol:

 

 

 

Yeah....they should have practiced a little....or agreed to a peck....gross