Confessions of an angry Catholic

[Carol in Cal.]

(((Moxie)))

[milovany]

I'm sorry you're facing such difficult moments right now. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

Moxie,

 

I am a former Catholic, so take this as you will.  However, I was Catholic still in college and really struggling, so I took a course on Roman Catholicism.  The birth control "rule" is defined in one of the pope's writings called "Humanae Vitae."  Please consider reading it.  

 

Also, note that in Vatican II, there is a teaching that says if, after much prayer and consideration, your conscience conflicts with the official church teaching, then it is a sin to NOT follow your conscience.  This is Catholic teaching.  This is what almost let me stay Catholic.

 

Hugs.  HTH.

 

Kim

 

 

 

[Moxie]

I understand that but would YOU feel better about going against the teachings of the religion if you had discussed it with religious leaders who authorized your choice (for lack of a better way to put it).

 

The church is obviously very important to you and your family but your health and sanity are also very important to your family (as well as your husbands). I don't envy you trying to find the balance between the two.

I get where you are coming from but, no, that would not help because no priest can tell me that the Church says it is ok. The priest would be wrong.

[wintermom]

Again, the cold hard truth is that birth control is not allowed. Even if 10 priests said it was ok, it wouldn't be.

Hugs to you. I am Catholic and have a bunch of kids, so I can understand your dilemma. My problem with NFP is that it is supposedly allowed by the church, but I see no practical difference between it and other forms of birth control. NFP is an attempt to control when pregnancy will occur, so why is it allowed and not others? There is no more and no less "openness to life" for a couple using NFP than a couple using other forms - really. The church has said it is acceptable, though. I just don't understand the logic.

 

I think there are times when we have to live our faith as best we can, while maintaining our health and welfare. Were I to get pregnant now, after 4 c-sections and the physical state of my body, the chances of me and/or the baby dying are too high a risk.

[Murphy101]

What?? Giving up my baby to someone else is NOT an option! It took me a year to find a babysitter I trust!

*snort*

 

I probably shouldn't laugh, but that was funny and I completely understand. :)

 

I think the hardest thing is accepting God's Will over our own. Been there doing that.

 

If you'd like to talk to a whole bunch of ladies who will understand and sympathize and not push you to ditch your faith, I'd be glad to send you an invite to a FB group. Having babies, like many things in our faith, is not always cheer and sunbeams and smiles. It's hard and scary and tears too.

 

I won't argue the religion or anything else here bc I don't think that's what you are looking for. I think you just need somewhere you can be a good catholic who is struggling and vent about that without being considered a bad mom/person/catholic. If you'd like to do it somewhere among fellow Catholics, feel free to PM me.

 

(((Hugs)))

[JustEm]

Moxie I sent you a pm.  It is Napro technology which is in line with the Church.  

[Peplophoros]

Again, the cold hard truth is that birth control is not allowed. Even if 10 priests said it was ok, it wouldn't be.

 

Moxie, you sound awesome.  I admire your faith.  Give your anger and frustration to our Blessed Mother.  She will take care of you, your family, and your baby.  She makes all crosses sweet and light. 

[Murphy101]

Okay...

 

I can't resist two points of clarification:

 

1. Dying in mortal sin does not automatically mean you go to hell. Odds are not in your favor, but only God judges hell. We just know that sin weighs the odds against us avoiding it.

 

2. NFP is not just about avoiding pregnancy. It can also be used to help achieve pregnancy. No other birth control does that. Also, abstinence works for everyone except the BVM. ;) Obviously, the less a couple abstains, the greater the chance of pregnancy that month. When a couple can abstain and still have a strong marriage, one could argue that NFP does indeed bring them emotionally closer. However, I don't think that means it is easy or fun or they don't miss the sex.

 

And lastly, I can't stand NFP. I'd rather just not have sex than deal with NFP. And when we have needed to seriously not risk a pregnancy, that's exactly what we ended up doing. For us, any risk wasn't worth it and the charting and stress over whether we should or shouldn't was awful. So we sat down together and decided that yes, we were that serious, and set a time frame to abstain and then reconsider our situation. Sometimes it was 6 months. Once it was 1 year.

 

I am not asking anyone to agree with me or the RCC. Simply stating two points of clarification on facts and giving one point of personal perspective.

[Orthodox6]

Well, I guess I personally believe you CAN ignore it or at least consider it and consider that it doesn't work.  It's an institution run by people (not a God). 

 

That is not exactly the belief of either Catholics or Orthodox.  (Perhaps you did not know that EO and Catholics consider the Church to be a divine institution, established by Christ, and fully under God's authority and care.)  Yes, people (with flaws) handle the earthly administration, but everyone, clergy and laypeople, is subject to God's authority. 

 

I am not Catholic, and the Church (EO) varies slightly from their teaching if there already is a large family . . . BUT I strongly respect Moxie for her serious allegiance to her religion.

[momto10blessings]

Yep. This is not the world's first or last unplanned pregnancy. And I'm sure I'll eventually be happy about it and we'll love the poorly timed critter. You're right. It is what it is.

By your response about adoption it's obvious you already love this little one. Your husband will come around.

[merry gardens]

(((hugs)))

I encourage you to embrace this pregnancy and your fertility as your infertile sisters might. Unplanned pregnancies can be hard, but unplanned infertility can remind us that fertility, pregnancy and children are blessings from God.  Someone asked what the Bible says; the Bible repeatedly refers to children as blessings. God has blessed you, again.  Prayers for you and for the little one growing inside of you.

[bolt.]

Moxie,

 

I am a former Catholic, so take this as you will. However, I was Catholic still in college and really struggling, so I took a course on Roman Catholicism. The birth control "rule" is defined in one of the pope's writings called "Humanae Vitae." Please consider reading it.

 

Also, note that in Vatican II, there is a teaching that says if, after much prayer and consideration, your conscience conflicts with the official church teaching, then it is a sin to NOT follow your conscience. This is Catholic teaching. This is what almost let me stay Catholic.

 

Hugs. HTH.

 

Kim

This is an interesting note on the place of one's conscience in Catholic life. Do you think it might apply here Moxie?

 

Also, please don't let this bother you too much while you are on the hormone coctail of early pregnancy. You aren't quite yourself, and I would want my whole brain available to me in order to sort out a sticky problem like this one.

 

Maybe share a bit more about the "mortal sin" aspect... Is it "cleared" regularly by going to confession? Or does that categorize it as "unrepentant" -- as it would tend to be seen in Protestant contexts? If you has a single, permanent procedure done, would your guilt be ongoing? Or would it be cleared by a single confession? Would it matter if you did it knowingly and intending to confess, or is confession mostly reserved for issues that aren't quite so premeditated?

[Spryte]

:grouphug:

 

I can't imagine what you are feeling, but want to offer support.

 

FWIW, I think you are very kind not to discuss your feelings about this in depth with your sisters who are struggling with infertility.  Even in the face of dealing with your own feelings, you are thinking of theirs.  You are a good sister. 

[emcap]

Oh, hugs to you. Many prayers also. I agree with you that if it's against the church's teaching then it doesn't matter what others do. I am part of the church so I follow her laws.

 

I have been in a similar situation, it is so tough, but I am never willing to leave the church that I so firmly believe in. The book trustful surrender to Divine Providence really helped me.

 

Congratulations, I hope that it will very soon feel like the blessing it is.

[Soror]

This is an interesting note on the place of one's conscience in Catholic life. Do you think it might apply here Moxie?

 

Also, please don't let this bother you too much while you are on the hormone coctail of early pregnancy. You aren't quite yourself, and I would want my whole brain available to me in order to sort out a sticky problem like this one.

 

Maybe share a bit more about the "mortal sin" aspect... Is it "cleared" regularly by going to confession? Or does that categorize it as "unrepentant" -- as it would tend to be seen in Protestant contexts? If you has a single, permanent procedure done, would your guilt be ongoing? Or would it be cleared by a single confession? Would it matter if you did it knowingly and intending to confess, or is confession mostly reserved for issues that aren't quite so premeditated?

In order to confess ones sins you have to be repentant, confession isn't like some get out of jail free card.  You would actually need to be sorry you did something to confess it.

[PrincessMommy]

I'm so sorry you are struggling right now. I have no answers....  But congrats on the new baby.   I'm not Catholic but I do remember two of my pregnancies which were unplanned and knew it was going to be difficult.  There was that feeling of impending dread.  and feeling like I just couldn't do it (yes, and feeling terribly guilty about all those feelings too).   God gave me the grace to make it through the really, really difficult stuff (health issues for me).  I pray He will do the same for you in this situation.  :grouphug:

[Alte Veste Academy]

OK, this is admittedly coming from a place of total ignorance, and probably won't be helpful. But I really don't get it, and I have a question. (Please go easy on me. LOL)

 

I remember reading your thread in May and being perplexed. You said at the time (after reading some rules of other faiths, I believe) that you wish you had been born Protestant. You also said, "The big issue, for me, really isn't the my medical issue. I just really disagree with this teaching. A married, open-to-life couple should be allowed to use barrier methods, IMO. I know the Church won't change it's mind but look at what we have now--the majority of Catholics are on the pill or permanently sterilized!!"

 

You disagree that it should be a rule? Or you disagree (don't believe?) that people will actually go to hell for breaking the rule? I know the church has taught that they will, but what do you believe? (And, personally, I do not see this as irrelevant, but I understand if you do.) If the rule was changed overnight, would the ultimate fates of those using birth control change as well? The people who used birth control and died last week would be doomed to hell, but the people who use birth control and die next week would be OK?

 

I guess what I am really asking is whether or not you actually believe this tenet, not as a rule but as a reality. And if you do not believe it but live it anyway, are you truly a Catholic or just in name? (That sounds REALLY harsh and I promise I do not mean it to be. I just don't know a tactful way to ask this!) Back during your other thread, I found myself wondering what actually constitutes being a Catholic. I always assumed it was believing in the tenets of the faith and living them to the best of your ability, not living them although you disagree with them. Not liking them, sure. I could see that. But not believing them?

[DianeW88]

There are loopholes for being able to take the pill.  As a former Catholic, I have many Catholic friends.  One of them is on the pill to control her acne.  Another is taking the pill for hideous PMS symptoms.  A third is taking it because she gets giant ovarian cysts that rupture and cause her to head directly to the ER, do not pass go.  All of these circumstances have to do with the health of the woman, and the prevention of pregnancy is a side effect of the medication they have been prescribed.  Their priests have told them all that if they are taking the pill for their own health issues, and not to prevent pregnancy, it was fine. 

[Liz CA]

I want to give you a big hug. I can sense the frustration and I remember your thread from a while back regarding this very frustrating issue. If you struggle so much internally, would you and your dh (who is also upset if I am reading this correcty from your post) be open to learning more about other types of churches? I am not against the Catholic faith at all and consider true Christians Christians - catholic or not. Seems to me you are suffering a crisis that is not leading to enlightenment and growth but rather to a lot of resentment. I am sure someone will misunderstand this - but I also hope it makes sense somewhere.

 

I know you don't feel this baby is welcome at the moment. And don't feel any guilt at all over this. IMHO, God knows your anguish and knows your intentions, He will bring you through this. God does not ask us to fake delight when we don't feel it, he asks us to trust him - and that can be so difficult when we cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel. Guess what? He loves us anyway!

[carriede]

There are loopholes for being able to take the pill. As a former Catholic, I have many Catholic friends. One of them is on the pill to control her acne. Another is taking the pill for hideous PMS symptoms. A third is taking it because she gets giant ovarian cysts that rupture and cause her to head directly to the ER, do not pass go. All of these circumstances have to do with the health of the woman, and the prevention of pregnancy is a side effect of the medication they have been prescribed. Their priests have told them all that if they are taking the pill for their own health issues, and not to prevent pregnancy, it was fine.

This is indeed true, but not helpful if you have don't have a medical reason to take BC.

[JustEm]

There are loopholes for being able to take the pill.  As a former Catholic, I have many Catholic friends.  One of them is on the pill to control her acne.  Another is taking the pill for hideous PMS symptoms.  A third is taking it because she gets giant ovarian cysts that rupture and cause her to head directly to the ER, do not pass go.  All of these circumstances have to do with the health of the woman, and the prevention of pregnancy is a side effect of the medication they have been prescribed.  Their priests have told them all that if they are taking the pill for their own health issues, and not to prevent pregnancy, it was fine. 

There are no loopholes.  If the pill they are taking is a type that causes a fertilized egg to be aborted or deliberately not implant than it goes against Catholic teaching and their priests are guiding them incorrectly.  In all of those cases there are other alternatives that potentially cause the death of a child.  I can't say I know much about the pill but in theory if there is a pill that ONLY stops fertility then it could be used for medical  purposes but the medical issue would have to put the woman's life in danger.  So only the ovarian cyst one would be a legitimate reason for using that type of pill.

 

 

But if the only pills available try to stop fertility and also stop implantation then even the ovarian cyst one would not be a legitimate reason because she is putting her life above the unborn child that the pill could potentially cause her to abort.  To stay in good standing with the Catholic Church she could have her ovaries removed

[Orthodox6]

Having just re-read the OP, I can't find any mention of that.  Could you point it out?

 

Edit -- I just re-read each of the OP's response posts, and still can't find it.

 

I do agree with her statement about not fully understanding if one isn't Catholic, which makes perfect sense, as I am not Catholic.  I am also not pregnant, nor ever will be, and will gladly accept a "kindly butt out" based solely on that.

 

Following is a quote from Catwoman:

 

"And to anyone reading this thread, I implore you to PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE not give Moxie a lecture on how she must be doing NFP wrong, or how she should have used traditional birth control if she didn't want to get pregnant. It won't be helpful, it's not true, and it will only make her feel more upset.

 

I really hope everyone here can be supportive and kind."

 

(end quote)

 

I think your negative remarks were not in line with that clear request to spare the OP any bashing. 

[Liz CA]

*snort*

 

I probably shouldn't laugh, but that was funny and I completely understand. :)

 

I think the hardest thing is accepting God's Will over our own. Been there doing that.

 

If you'd like to talk to a whole bunch of ladies who will understand and sympathize and not push you to ditch your faith, I'd be glad to send you an invite to a FB group. Having babies, like many things in our faith, is not always cheer and sunbeams and smiles. It's hard and scary and tears too.

 

I won't argue the religion or anything else here bc I don't think that's what you are looking for. I think you just need somewhere you can be a good catholic who is struggling and vent about that without being considered a bad mom/person/catholic. If you'd like to do it somewhere among fellow Catholics, feel free to PM me.

 

(((Hugs)))

 

Just clarifying or wondering...in my post I gently asked if Moxie and dh would consider other churches. I hope this is not coming across as "ditching" one's faith - if anyone reads it this way - please do not interpret it as ditching faith.

If looking at the Bible and other churches is not an option for Moxie, I fully respect it and I am glad she feels comfortable enough to share her frustrations and anxieties here. At least we can give Moxie a cyberhug.

[Scarlett]

I also want to say that this will get better.  You will feel better and as you say you will love this little unplanned critter.  :)

[AimeeM]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

When I found myself in disagreement with, and unable to follow, Catholic Church doctrine, I left the Church and became a protestant.

 

It sounds as if you take doctrine really seriously so it's hard imagine you being able to disregard this portion of it. 

 

I'm sorry. 

 

(By the way, a pp asked what the Bible says and you said it didn't matter.  But it does matter:  is the rule Biblical or simply Catholic tradition?  If just tradition, what is the basis of the rule?  I'm  not trying to be insulting or offensive; I just think it does matter in this situation.) 

As a former Catholic you refer to church doctrine and dogma as "simply tradition"?! Surely you know the church line on this. She's already stated, I believe, that she is trying to stay in communion with the church. If you're a former Catholic, you know how this works.

[AimeeM]

I get where you are coming from but, no, that would not help because no priest can tell me that the Church says it is ok. The priest would be wrong.

 

I know it's no consolation, but as a struggling Catholic (myself), the way you live your faith (even if you disagree with parts of it) inspire me. I admire you.

Prayers to you and your family... and I hope you find peace.

[Orthodox6]

 

(By the way, a pp asked what the Bible says and you said it didn't matter.  But it does matter:  is the rule Biblical or simply Catholic tradition?  If just tradition, what is the basis of the rule?  I'm  not trying to be insulting or offensive; I just think it does matter in this situation.) 

 

I sense that you are peaceful in your approach.  Please know that I am, too.  As a former Catholic, you already know that for a Catholic there is no such thing as any opposition between "is it from the Bible" or "is it from Church tradition".  The Bible came into existence within Church tradition, not separate from it, but as a part of it.  Your present perspective is Protestant, which differs at the core.  Your question, then, makes no sense to a Catholic. 

[Little Nyssa]

I just came back to read the rest of the thread and wanted to give you another  :grouphug: , Moxie.

[Onceuponatime]

 

And lastly, I can't stand NFP. I'd rather just not have sex than deal with NFP. And when we have needed to seriously not risk a pregnancy, that's exactly what we ended up doing. For us, any risk wasn't worth it and the charting and stress over whether we should or shouldn't was awful. So we sat down together and decided that yes, we were that serious, and set a time frame to abstain and then reconsider our situation. Sometimes it was 6 months. Once it was 1 year.

 

 

 

I have not used birthcontrol for over 20 years. We started out with the thermometers and charts for religious reasons even though we are not Catholic. Then I gave that up and whenever we were serious about avoiding pregnancy abstained from day 8-18 when I was having regular cycles. That is a simple method taught to some women without access to birth control. It is not perfect but it covers the most likely time period for ovulation without having to check signs. It worked very well for us. We have also abstained for up to a year after the birth of a child when I was nursing and had no period. I don't have the same objections to BC that I used to but we are used to the way things are. I know this would be a hardship for many people, but dh would rather abstain periodically than get a vasectomy. The thought scares him witless, lol.

[Kim in Appalachia]

I'm sure I'll insult some Catholics but here goes....

 

Lets just say I know a lot of Catholics who just ignore some of that.

 

 

I was raised RC, in an area that was 80% RC, and I had never even heard of the teaching until I was older.  No one we knew followed it.  I'm not saying the OP was wrong to follow it.  I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for following the church's teaching.  I'm just saying that I've never known a priest (I'm sure there are a few) that would say you are in "bad standing" if you didn't follow that teaching.  

 

To the OP:  :grouphug:  I'm sorry you are in such a tight spot. And I'm sure that when things settle in a bit you will start to feel positive about this baby.  

[JustEm]

I was raised RC, in an area that was 80% RC, and I had never even heard of the teaching until I was older.  No one we knew followed it.  I'm not saying the OP was wrong to follow it.  I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for following the church's teaching.  I'm just saying that I've never known a priest (I'm sure there are a few) that would say you are in "bad standing" if you didn't follow that teaching.  

 

To the OP:  :grouphug:  I'm sorry you are in such a tight spot. And I'm sure that when things settle in a bit you will start to feel positive about this baby.  

Did you specifically ask people if they followed NFP.  I know people who would never talk about following NFP because when they have in the past have either been laughed at for doing such silly things or had people angry at them because they didn't believe them.  I sure know that no one in my parish knows I follow it because I don't talk to them about my sex life.

 

Also, a priest does not have to tell you are in bad standing with the Church teaching in order to make it true.  Even if a priest specifically told you that you were not in bad standing with the Church if you used birth control that would not be true. Priests don't make that decision and them guiding you incorrectly is wrong on their part.

[marbel]

As a former Catholic you refer to church doctrine and dogma as "simply tradition"?! Surely you know the church line on this. She's already stated, I believe, that she is trying to stay in communion with the church. If you're a former Catholic, you know how this works.

 

One of the questions was "do I leave the church?"   I was answering that question based on my own experiences.  

[Murphy101]

I have not used birthcontrol for over 20 years. We started out with the thermometers and charts for religious reasons even though we are not Catholic. Then I gave that up and whenever we were serious about avoiding pregnancy abstained from day 8-18 when I was having regular cycles. That is a simple method taught to some women without access to birth control. It is not perfect but it covers the most likely time period for ovulation without having to check signs. It worked very well for us. We have also abstained for up to a year after the birth of a child when I was nursing and had no period. I don't have the same objections to BC that I used to but we are used to the way things are. I know this would be a hardship for many people, but dh would rather abstain periodically than get a vasectomy. The thought scares him witless, lol.

We don't use BC/sterility for reasons that have nothing to do with religion either. Dh isn't religious and I am a convert after we had several children already.

 

For us, no ABC has little to do with religion. I know and agree with the tenets behind the religious doctrine, but even if I didn't, I wouldn't use it.

[AngelaNYC]

I'm just jumping in here with a few clarifications.  I know this is difficult and I am not judging, condemning, or agreeing, just clarifying.  And this is not for Moxie - whom I understand and totally feel for, just for those who are questioning Catholic beliefs. The bible verse referred to is Genesis 38:8-10 - which says (I'm paraphrasing) spilling semen on the ground to prevent offspring is wicked in the Lord's sight.  But, I am aware that there are many laws and rules in the Old Testament that Christians don't follow since Christ came to be (some eating and cleanliness laws come to mind).  The Catholic Church holds sexual relations sacred and it is for the sole purposes of love AND creating offspring.  All the Christian religions followed that as well - until about 1930 - but Catholicism was unwavering.  

 

(As an aside, other reasons for why the Catholic Church oppose contraception are:  "Rates of marital infidelity would increase because spouses could be unfaithful without fear of pregnancy. Since contraception offers an easy way to elude the natural consequences of the moral law, there would be a general lowering of morality. The Church also “feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-contraceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman, and no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion. Furthermore, if people could separate making love from making life, then why would those acts that are unable to make life (homosexual sex or masturbation) be forbidden? With the increase in contraceptive use, it would become increasingly difficult to view sexuality as a sign of God’s love. [chastity.com])

 -

Again, I am expressing no opinion here.  I just wanted to help with some understanding. :)   HERE is some more reading and related bible verses.

[Kim in Appalachia]

Did you specifically ask people if they followed NFP.  I know people who would never talk about following NFP because when they have in the past have either been laughed at for doing such silly things or had people angry at them because they didn't believe them.  I sure know that no one in my parish knows I follow it because I don't talk to them about my sex life.

 

Also, a priest does not have to tell you are in bad standing with the Church teaching in order to make it true.  Even if a priest specifically told you that you were not in bad standing with the Church if you used birth control that would not be true. Priests don't make that decision and them guiding you incorrectly is wrong on their part.

 

 

My entire extended family is RC, all of our friends were too.  When I was old enough to "understand" some of the issues and talk, yes I did know.  I knew that everyone in our family, as well as our friends supported using BC.  We  attended a church with over 500 people (Obviously, I didn't know every family well.  I stated that those I knew, not everyone in our church).  I went to school with those same kids, some of the parents were my teachers.  BC was advocated.  And our priest, as well as the few (only about 6) others that we knew did talk about a "soft" stance. I local RC where I live now would never tell a couple to use BC, but he is not opposed.   

 

I know it's a sensitive issue.  I don't want to debate it.  I'm only talking about my experience;  what I knew and saw while growing up.  There is variation on the issue within the church (from it's members and even teachers).  Many do not follow the teaching, but still believe and want to stay in communion with the RC.  

[DianeW88]

There are no loopholes.  If the pill they are taking is a type that causes a fertilized egg to be aborted or deliberately not implant than it goes against Catholic teaching and their priests are guiding them incorrectly.  In all of those cases there are other alternatives that potentially cause the death of a child.  I can't say I know much about the pill but in theory if there is a pill that ONLY stops fertility then it could be used for medical  purposes but the medical issue would have to put the woman's life in danger.  So only the ovarian cyst one would be a legitimate reason for using that type of pill.

 

 

But if the only pills available try to stop fertility and also stop implantation then even the ovarian cyst one would not be a legitimate reason because she is putting her life above the unborn child that the pill could potentially cause her to abort.  To stay in good standing with the Catholic Church she could have her ovaries removed

 

Actually, the woman taking the pill for acne had a prescription for Accutane.  Birth control is required as part of that medication (two types), as well as regular doctor visits for pregnancy tests.  So, there was no other alternative for her in that case.

 

[alef]

Sending hugs. 

I can't comment from a Catholic perspective, I do know that faith sometimes requires us to do really hard things.

 

From a practical perspective, is there anything you can do to lighten other burdens in your life so this one may be more bearable? It made a huge difference in my life when I hired a homeschooled teenager as a mother's helper three days a week. Since you can't change the fact of the pregnancy, maybe there is something in your life that you can change to make this time easier?

[JustEm]

My entire extended family is RC, all of our friends were too.  When I was old enough to "understand" some of the issues and talk, yes I did know.  I knew that everyone in our family, as well as our friends supported using BC.  We  attended a church with over 500 people (Obviously, I didn't know every family well.  I stated that those I knew, not everyone in our church).  I went to school with those same kids, some of the parents were my teachers.  BC was advocated.  And our priest, as well as the few (only about 6) others that we knew did talk about a "soft" stance. I local RC where I live now would never tell a couple to use BC, but he is not opposed.   

 

I know it's a sensitive issue.  I don't want to debate it.  I'm only talking about my experience;  what I knew and saw while growing up.  There is variation on the issue within the church (from it's members and even teachers).  Many do not follow the teaching, but still believe and want to stay in communion with the RC.  

 

 

Thats respectable.  I just wanted to make sure because from my experience those who do follow NFP get ridiculed for it and therefore do not mention it even if asked.  I follow it and will not hesitate to talk about it but I have very thick skin and just let dumb comments roll off my shoulders.  

 

One can use birth control and still be in good standing with the Church because they have not been fully informed that it is unacceptable.  If they do know that and still choose to ignore Church doctrine then it is likely(I won't say they aren't because only God can judge them and decide wether they are freely choosing to ignore teaching and fully understand what that teaching it) they are not in communion with the Catholic Church.  

 

Moxie, however, knows she personally would not be in communion with the Church if she chose to use bc.  Because of that she is struggling.  

[ajfries]

"Snipped" for brevity

 All the Christian religions followed that as well - until about 1930 - but Catholicism was unwavering.  

 

This is the 2nd time this has been mentioned, and for some reason I needed more information :) The sources I've found (which are all Catholic) saying this specify that all Protestant denominations "condemned" birth control. But not all denominations are self-defined as Catholic or Protestant.

 

This is probably irrelevant, but for some reason this really stuck in my craw and I felt the need to point it out.

 

Carry on...

 

 

 

And Moxie, I just have to say that I admire your resolution to stick to your convictions. Particularly when there is such "grey area" among Church members on this issue. In the end, it is your conscience & your God that you are held accountable to.

[Catwoman]

And Moxie, I just have to say that I admire your resolution to stick to your convictions. Particularly when there is such "grey area" among Church members on this issue. In the end, it is your conscience & your God that you are held accountable to.

:iagree:

 

I find it absolutely commendable that Moxie is sticking to her convictions and beliefs, even when it's incredibly difficult for her to do so, and when many people would tell her to ditch the rules and do whatever was most convenient for her.

 

Would I do things differently than she does? Yes.

 

Would I ever tell her to go against her beliefs? Never.

[JustEm]

Actually, the woman taking the pill for acne had a prescription for Accutane.  Birth control is required as part of that medication (two types), as well as regular doctor visits for pregnancy tests.  So, there was no other alternative for her in that case.

 

In that case her 2 chooses could have been abstinence and condoms. Condoms being ok because her medical condition required her to use a birth control.  Using a form of birth control that has a chance of allowing an egg to fertilize and then aborts that egg by not allowing it to implant is never in line with the Catholic Church because it emphasizes that the mother is more important than the child, which is not the case.  

 

Since one form was abstinence she would have never actually had to use the condom.

[DianeW88]

In that case her 2 chooses could have been abstinence and condoms. Condoms being ok because her medical condition required her to use a birth control.  Using a form of birth control that has a chance of allowing an egg to fertilize and then aborts that egg by not allowing it to implant is never in line with the Catholic Church because it emphasizes that the mother is more important than the child, which is not the case.  

 

Since one form was abstinence she would have never actually had to use the condom.

 

That isn't allowed for Accutane.  For the primary form of birth control, the user must either be on the pill, have an IUD, use a hormonal patch, ring, or Depo shot, or be sterilized.  The secondary form (required even if the woman has her tubes tied or her partner has a vasectomy) can be a barrier method, such as a condom.  The only women allowed to use Accutane without these restrictions are women who have had a hysterectomy.  It is completely non-negotiable.

 

[AngelaNYC]

"Snipped" for brevity

 

This is the 2nd time this has been mentioned, and for some reason I needed more information :) The sources I've found (which are all Catholic) saying this specify that all Protestant denominations "condemned" birth control. But not all denominations are self-defined as Catholic or Protestant.

 

This is probably irrelevant, but for some reason this really stuck in my craw and I felt the need to point it out.

 

Carry on...

 

 

 

And Moxie, I just have to say that I admire your resolution to stick to your convictions. Particularly when there is such "grey area" among Church members on this issue. In the end, it is your conscience & your God that you are held accountable to.

 

Are these reliable sources?  I didn't read through nor am I able to validate everything.  There are sooo many articles to google on this.  

 

http://bound4life.com/history-of-contraception-in-the-protestant-church/

http://www.reformedpresbytery.org/books/birthcon/birthcontrol.pdf

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2531431/posts

[DianeW88]

And Moxie, I really do hope you can find peace with your situation.  I'm sure it's a difficult struggle for you.  I hope you find the answers you're seeking. And I wish you a happy and healthy pregnancy, too.

[ajfries]

Are these reliable sources?  I didn't read through nor am I able to validate everything.  There are sooo many articles to google on this.  

 

http://bound4life.com/history-of-contraception-in-the-protestant-church/

http://www.reformedpresbytery.org/books/birthcon/birthcontrol.pdf

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2531431/posts

 

Oh, I'm not questioning the sources I found. Just saying that not all Christian religions are Catholic or Protestant. It's rather irrelevant but I felt the need to point it out none-the-less :)

[gardenmom5]

I understand that but would YOU feel better about going against the teachings of the religion if you had discussed it with religious leaders who authorized your choice (for lack of a better way to put it).

 

The church is obviously very important to you and your family but your health and sanity are also very important to your family (as well as your husbands).  I don't envy you trying to find the balance between the two.

I am not catholic, but am a member of a very conservative religion that has teachings some members strongly disagree with, not unlike how some catholics respond to some catholic teachings.  

 

someone who takes their religion seriously will never see it as a buffet where they can pick and choose what they like and ignore what they don't like.   as a woman of faith, I would consider that action to be demeaning to my faith.

[JustEm]

That isn't allowed for Accutane.  For the primary form of birth control, the user must either be on the pill, have an IUD, use a hormonal patch, ring, or Depo shot, or be sterilized.  The secondary form (required even if the woman has her tubes tied or her partner has a vasectomy) can be a barrier method, such as a condom.  The only women allowed to use Accutane without these restrictions are women who have had a hysterectomy.  It is completely non-negotiable.

 

Well I know women who have used Accutane while abstaining so either their doctor steered them poorly or your friends' did.  But if all you say is true then your friend would also have to abstain from sex as to not actually potentially abort an unborn child because of her choice of birth control.  

[Moxie]

Thank you to everyone who has responded! I appreciate all the efforts to help me feel at ease.

 

Some points to clarify.

 

Mortal sin--the Church teaches that for a sin to be mortal it must be 1. grave or serious sin 2. done with full knowledge and 3. consent. Not everyone Catholic who is using BC is condemned to Hell because not everyone knows about or understands the teaching. However, I do.

 

The Church teaches that sexual acts between man and wife must be 1. unitive and 2. procreative. It would be evil to force your spouse to have relations because it denies the unity of the spouses. It is also evil (evil is a privation--the act is deprived of it's good) to deny the sexual act it's procreative nature. That is why NFP is permitted--if you aren't having relations, there is no way to deprive the act of it's good.

 

Someone brought up my previous thread and asked what I believe. I truly do not believe God in Heaven cares if DH and I use a barrier. We've been generous and open to life. I think that that is what God cares about.

 

But, I am wrong.

 

Here's the thing that will make a Protestant's head spin. As a Catholic, it is not my call to say what God believes. And I understand that many of you can't understand that. I am not going to presume that I am smarter than 2000 years of study and tradition. I have tradition and a hierarchy that are just as important to me as the Bible--I can't say that I'm going to ignore part of the Church teaching just like I can't say I'm going to ignore parts of the Bible.

 

Really, my only choice is to accept Church teaching no matter how much I hate it (still working on humble submission) or decide that the Church isn't really the Church put on earth by Jesus and handed to Peter and walk away.

 

I love the Church. I can't not be Catholic. So really there is no choice. Well, I guess there is. I can choose to be happy and deal with my lot gracefully. Maybe tomorrow.

 

On the bright side, I get to have as much sex as I want for the next nine months!!

[gardenmom5]

Well I know women who have used Accutane while abstaining so either their doctor steered them poorly or your friends' did.  .  

wouldn't be the first time.  drs are still human beings, they get tired, careless and lazy - when they aren't simply making mistakes.  or as up on a drugs conditions and restrictions (and side-effects) as they should be since they're prescribing it.  (I speak from experience.)  oh, and patients have been known to lie to their drs about drugs they're taking.