Help with a coaching situation. I am livid. UPDATE post #35, 56

[dirty ethel rackham]

Dd is a competitive rock climber and has been on our local gym's climbing team for the last 4 years.  Over 2 years ago, she moved up to the most advanced team and is the youngest member.  I have been working with the manager of this gym trying to improve the coaching and help develop the competition side of things.  It has been slow going - promises are made, but not many are kept.  Progress has been incremental.  One problem we have faced is that they have treated the coaching positions as a slot to fill, just like manning the front desk and washing the windows.  They have really not worked at instilling professionalism in their coaching staff.  Until recently, most coaches simply punched their clock and didn't think about the job or plan ahead any sort of curriculum.  This may be OK for the lowest recreational teams (which is more like babysitting), but not acceptable for the development team or the advanced team.  The exception is my daughter's coach, S.  The kids love him.  He is demanding, but respectful and encouraging.  He really cares about the kids progress.  He was an athlete in college and takes the science of training very seriously.  He reads on his own time (despite his dyslexia) to learn more about how to get the most out of these kids while protecting them from injury. 

 

No one at this gym has been very informed about the competitive side of things (where the competitions are and how to register.)  The idea of team is really about training partners because it is an individual sport more or less.  So, I took it upon myself to learn about this side of things and volunteered to be a liaison between the competition governing body and the gym and parents.  So, I email the parents and coaches about the competitive season, the rules, upcoming competitions, help arrange carpooling, helped arrange fundraisers, etc.  I have kept pressure on the gym to keep in mind the competitive season when scheduling practices and even making sure that they don't assign the coach to work a weekend shift at the gym when we have a big championship competition coming up. 

 

A year ago, S was pulled off of coaching by the manager and was replaced with E.  While there were things to like about E, he was a little too lax with the kids.  Eventually E moved away and S was reinstated as coach.  The team has really taken off under his direction.  The manager of this gym tends to butt heads with S.  S can be prickly, but he is really a dedicated person and gets irritated when he sees things that shouldn't be.  There have been situations where the manager has been capricious in dealing with S and has been unfair.  I thought things were going well, until I got an email from S that he was fired today.  Apparently, someone accused him of shirking some responsibilities at work (not coaching related) and the manager believed this other person and up and fired him without giving him a chance to defend himself.  We are blindsided.  We are less than a month from a major competition - the championship series.  We can't afford to change coaches like this right now. And I know that none of the other staff members who would likely be selected to coach this team could even come close to S in knowledge, motivational ability, rapport, etc.  None of them even care to read my emails about the competitions series. 

 

I want to charge over to the gym and give the manager a piece of my mind.  I want to tell him that I am tired of paying big $$ for my daughter to be on team and for him to treat it so cavalierly.  I am tired of him playing alpha-dog with S instead of respecting what S brings to the gym.  I am mad because I know that he will try to spin this to the other parents.  S asked me to tell the other parents before the next practice so that they can break it to the kids.  He is appealing to corporate and is hiring an attorney for wrongful termination.   I haven't told my daughter.  I am really upset. 

 

Any advice on how to proceed from here?  I would like to rally the other parents to help S get his job back. 

[Juniper]

I would try if I were you, but will he want to come back? Is there another gym you could help him get to and even have dd work privately with him there?

 

I have been on the other end of this as a riding instructor and it has meant the world to when students follow me to another location. Especially, because my personal ethics won't allow me to ask them to leave. I have had great parents find me different barns to teach at and I know I would not have returned to the barn that let me go over someone else's word.

[Seasider]

If your dd is working as an individual in this competition, switch with S to a new gym and don't look back. If her partner is necessary and valuable, and also appreciates S, talk to those parents about your two families making the switch. If the whole team must go together, I would certainly go visit the gym manager and calmly remind him of the amount of money you've spent there and that the competition is just a month away.

 

After the competition, I'd move along regardless. You've posted about your coaching issues before and if I were in your shoes, I'd move towards future climbing activities in a new gym with a management team who supports and values climbers.

[elegantlion]

Can you or the team hire S as a private coach and take him to gym as a private instructor, not as an employee of the gym? Not sure how that all works, but I would be livid too. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

I wish moving to another gym would be that easy.  The next closest gym is an hour away without traffic. That one doesn't have a team so it would only be a private arrangement.  The next closest gym that has a team is 90 minutes each way in traffic.  That would add 6 hours a week in just driving time and it would mean a new coach and possible conflicts with their team practice time.  The first one could work as a short term situation, but not so much long term since she needs to  practice 2 -  3 days a week. 

 

I do know that S is appealing to corporate to get his job back because he needs his job (and knows that there aren't that many opportunities elsewhere.)  He would love to just tell his boss where to shove it, but knows that his options for full-time employment are limited in this field.  His long-term plan is to advance his outdoor guiding training and eventually move to Colorado to guide trips full-time (something the manager sees as disloyalty.)  But, he is not where he needs to be to make that happen. 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Oh, and another dad is talking with me about hiring S as a private coach.  Just where we would train would be up in the air.  Awkward to do it at our current gym, but that is where we the other dad and I have memberships and can get our kids in cheaper.  I hate this feeling of things being unsettled, but that is just the day things are. 

 

I am composing an email to the other parents to let them know (as S asked me to.)  Here is what I have so far: 

 

Dear Climbing Team Parents,

 

I received a message this morning from S, the coach of advanced team. He was fired from <our gym> this morning.  I do not know all the details, but he feels it was an unfair situation and is appealing to get his job back.  I know that he has behaved with the utmost professionalism as far as coaching is concerned, going far above what <our gym> has required of coaches in the past due to the fact that he cared so much about the kids.  He wanted me to tell the team families because he did not want the kids to be blindsided on Tuesday.  " 

 

I added an excerpt of what S told me about how much he loved coaching the kids and enjoyed watching them grow as climbers and as people and how he will miss them. He added something about hoping things can be worked out. 

 

So, what do you think?  Is this OK? 

 

(edited to remove his name)

[bettyandbob]

Perhaps you can work with S 1 or 2 days at the gym an hour away and he can give workouts to use on the other days we you workout at the place you have membership. If it's you plus other families definitely carpool to the gym an hour away.

[Mama Geek]

If you get most of the climbing team interested in going somewhere else maybe you could approach a few other gyms about putting in the facilities needed for climbing walls.

[JennyD]

Sorry you're dealing with this.  What a bummer for your DD, not to mention the rest of the team.

 

I would hesitate to assume that any other gym would necessarily be any more supportive, though.  My husband is a serious rock climber and according to him, competitions just aren't nearly as valued in rock climbing as they are in other sports.  He and his climbing friends do comps sometimes, if they feel like it, but they're not a focus at all and gyms don't accrue any sort of status by having good teams.  Furthermore, he said that climbers -- i.e., the kind of people who run climbing gyms -- generally think of climbing as mainly an adult sport, despite the fact that there are some really accomplished young climbers.

 

So I asked him what he would do in your situation and he said that honestly, he would have trouble keeping a straight face while asking the gym management to focus more on the kids' teams.  This is obviously not all that helpful, so my own approach  (I am not a climber) would be more along the lines of, "Look, I realize that climbing isn't traditionally about competitions, and I recognize that it may just not be something that you're all that interested in investing in for its own sake.   But there are a lot of kids, including mine, who really want to do this, and have parents who are willing to pay for it.  If we really have to, we will go elsewhere.  However, I don't want to drive an hour to spend my money at X gym -- I would rather spend it here.   It's close, my daughter loves it, and it's good to have a thriving climbing gym in our community.   Before I start trying to organize something elsewhere, Is there any chance that you might reconsider this whole situation with S?"  

 

I would not just switch gyms to a more inconvenient one, however, without first being certain that the new one is more invested in the kids' teams.

 

Good luck.  Your letter sounds excellent, by the way.   

 

[Vera]

My daughter is also a very serious competitive rock climber and we recently went through something similar to your situation. She quit her team after bouldering nationals last year and climbed independently for ropes season. She had some private coaching during that time but mostly she just trained with me as her belayer. It was difficult but she finished the season extremely successfully. I was a little sad at nationals watching all of the competitors going over beta with their coaches before they started climbing but some of her competitors coaches sort of adopted her and looked out for her during the comp. We tried out all of the gyms that are even remotely in our area and I now drive over an hour to a brand new gym. Some gyms just don't value their team and I finally decided that I wasn't going to be able to change that. The new gym treats the coaches as they should be treated and respects the competitive kids. I hope that you can somehow convince the management at your gym to take the team a little more seriously but in the meantime, I would arrange for your daughter to see S as often as possible wherever that works out. I would give that manager a piece of my mind for getting rid of the coach a month before Regionals!

[MysteryJen]

Almost the exact same scenario happened at our former climbing gym about 15 months ago.  I second JennyD's husband that competition is just not that valued in the larger rock climbing community and in some cases actively disparaged as "ruining the ethos of climbing." In our case, the coach was fired/quit right before the season started (4 days!). It was handled very, very badly and he did privately coach one kid last year's bouldering season.

 

My daughter did not like the new coach at all nor did she want to train by herself and so (living near a place with 4 climbing gyms within walking distance of each other) moved to a different team.  That has not been without some issues, but we are going along.

 

Respectfully, I don't think that your email will do much good (speaking from experience here) and may even be used against you if a new coach is brought in. Climbing politics can be nasty (at least here). I think your priority should be getting your daughter ready for regionals. I would go with the private coaching (even if you have to drive a long time for a gym) at least until the season is over, which is not that long really--end of February.  Then if you do ropes, you can start a team/coach/better situation search.

I am sorry for your situation. It is so frustrating to have the rug pulled our from under you.  :grouphug:

[Χά�ων]

DS rock climb's for fun at our gym and debated joining a local climbing team at a rock climbing gym. He has done local comps so I am familiar with the politics a bitI have no clue what a partner is though.

[Tammyla]

Oh, I would be so upset too, and I hope it works out somehow. 

[Anne in CA]

I don't have kids who rock climb other than for fun, but I would take a different tack with the gym manager. I would find out who he reports to at corporate and send that person a detailed list of the manager's failed promises and the work you have done yourself to keep this team together. I would make sure that corporate is aware that customers are in favor of S remaining, and that customers are not impressed with the manager on many levels. I would list the amount of money you have spent, that the whole rock climbing team has spent and request a refund if this situation is not dealt with fairly. I would not bother with the manager. I would appeal to higher sources and be tough with them.

[Trish]

It sounds like you've been unhappy with this gym for a long time. You can't transform them into being the competitive outfit you want them to be. So that hour to the other gym is either do-able or it isn't.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If the only potential problem was awkwardness, I would hire the coach privately with the other family and use your current gym.  If they make a big deal about it they can deal with the fallout of losing your membership.  

[Harriet Vane]

Oh, and another dad is talking with me about hiring S as a private coach.  Just where we would train would be up in the air.  Awkward to do it at our current gym, but that is where we the other dad and I have memberships and can get our kids in cheaper.  I hate this feeling of things being unsettled, but that is just the day things are. 

 

I am composing an email to the other parents to let them know (as S asked me to.)  Here is what I have so far: 

 

Dear Climbing Team Parents,

 

I received a message this morning from S, the coach of advanced team. He was fired from <our gym> this morning.  I do not know all the details, but he feels it was an unfair situation and is appealing to get his job back.  I know that he has behaved with the utmost professionalism as far as coaching is concerned, going far above what <our gym> has required of coaches in the past due to the fact that he cared so much about the kids.  He wanted me to tell the team families because he did not want the kids to be blindsided on Tuesday.  " 

 

I added an excerpt of what S told me about how much he loved coaching the kids and enjoyed watching them grow as climbers and as people and how he will miss them. He added something about hoping things can be worked out. 

 

So, what do you think?  Is this OK? 

 

(edited to remove his name)

 

I am sympathetic to your struggles, and I trust that your perceptions of this situation are accurate. :grouphug:

 

However, your email is inflammatory and will not help the situation. It could, in fact, make things more difficult for S, and will definitely make things more difficult for your daughter. If there is a chance that you might stay with this gym, then you should consider toning down the email quite a bit.

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

A couple of you said that my email (which was sent) was inflammatory.  I am confused.  What about it is problematic?  I was simply passing on information and expressing my admiration for him as coach.  I wanted to the parents a heads up because I knew a couple of kids on team had heard the news and it was going to spread like wildfire. I also wanted to pass on the coach's sincere, heartfelt message about how much he loved coaching these kids.  This email is WAY toned down from the conversations that have been going on with team parents, who are also livid. 

 

The gym will have their say at the next team practice.  Based upon past experience, I know that it will be a spin job. 

 

 

[MysteryJen]

Situations like this are really, really hard.  In our situation, the coach was fired pretty much because he had been moving the team to a more competitive mindset and training more like the biggest competitor in our area. The owner of the gym (despite his close personal ties with the head coach of our competitor) really does not like the direction that youth climbing is heading and did not want to be part of it.  He hired a coach who lives for trad climbing and climbing outside and does not care about the competition season.

The team was upset and parents were upset, but the split revealed some deep divisions inside the team.  Lots of people, it turned out, did want the competition toned down and in the end, only about 5 people (the top competitors) left.

Youth climbing is in a transition period, I think, and is fighting some perception problems from older climbers and established gyms.

 

It sounds like your daughter is a real competitor and maybe she just needs a different situation. Feel free to PM if you want more specifics.

[Slartibartfast]

IME if there is some sort of firing drama the true situation is rarely as described by either party.

 

 

 

I don't think the coach should be at the mercy of the store. I would see about having someone coach privately and maybe the parents an split the costs. You could even get the word out in the community if you wanted more  people to help with expenses. You could also check about local businesses to sponsor

 

Most organizations have volunteer coaches or the coaches are associated with the organization rather than a store. Y'all are blazing the trail for the future of the sport, the coaching can't be run that way. Most sports are not. I would contact the organization you compete with and also talk to some other local sports teams and discuss how they are funded.

 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

My husband is a serious rock climber and according to him, competitions just aren't nearly as valued in rock climbing as they are in other sports.  He and his climbing friends do comps sometimes, if they feel like it, but they're not a focus at all and gyms don't accrue any sort of status by having good teams.  Furthermore, he said that climbers -- i.e., the kind of people who run climbing gyms -- generally think of climbing as mainly an adult sport, despite the fact that there are some really accomplished young climbers.

 

So I asked him what he would do in your situation and he said that honestly, he would have trouble keeping a straight face while asking the gym management to focus more on the kids' teams.  This is obviously not all that helpful, so my own approach  (I am not a climber) would be more along the lines of, "Look, I realize that climbing isn't traditionally about competitions, and I recognize that it may just not be something that you're all that interested in investing in for its own sake.   But there are a lot of kids, including mine, who really want to do this, and have parents who are willing to pay for it.  If we really have to, we will go elsewhere.  However, I don't want to drive an hour to spend my money at X gym -- I would rather spend it here.   It's close, my daughter loves it, and it's good to have a thriving climbing gym in our community.   Before I start trying to organize something elsewhere, Is there any chance that you might reconsider this whole situation with S?"  

 

I would not just switch gyms to a more inconvenient one, however, without first being certain that the new one is more invested in the kids' teams.

 

Good luck.  Your letter sounds excellent, by the way.   

While I get it that most people don't take the competition side of the sport seriously as it is counter to the general climbing culture, the gym advertises these teams with language that says how they want committed climbers who will take competing seriously.  For the gym, youth climbing teams are serious revenue (lots of $$ to be in the program plus the added benefit that many parents buy memberships for themselves ).  But that is just it ... they treat it as a profit center.  We are paying as much as climbers on teams at other gyms who take the coaching seriously.  I have been working on getting them to give us what they advertise.  Another location of this climbing gym corporation (out of state) does have a much more committed youth program - in the top 10 in the country with several national champions. 

 

The other program has a fantastic reputation.  We know many climbers from that gym.  If we cannot find a way to retain S as coach (either with him at our gym or private coaching ), several of us may just have to make the commute to this other gym work. 

 

My daughter is also a very serious competitive rock climber and we recently went through something similar to your situation. She quit her team after bouldering nationals last year and climbed independently for ropes season. She had some private coaching during that time but mostly she just trained with me as her belayer. It was difficult but she finished the season extremely successfully. I was a little sad at nationals watching all of the competitors going over beta with their coaches before they started climbing but some of her competitors coaches sort of adopted her and looked out for her during the comp. We tried out all of the gyms that are even remotely in our area and I now drive over an hour to a brand new gym. Some gyms just don't value their team and I finally decided that I wasn't going to be able to change that. The new gym treats the coaches as they should be treated and respects the competitive kids. I hope that you can somehow convince the management at your gym to take the team a little more seriously but in the meantime, I would arrange for your daughter to see S as often as possible wherever that works out. I would give that manager a piece of my mind for getting rid of the coach a month before Regionals!

Thanks so much for your support.  This last year was the first time that they would pay for a coach to get certified and to send to Regionals.  Nothing like sending a 9yo into ISO for the first time knowing nobody! 

 

Almost the exact same scenario happened at our former climbing gym about 15 months ago.  I second JennyD's husband that competition is just not that valued in the larger rock climbing community and in some cases actively disparaged as "ruining the ethos of climbing." In our case, the coach was fired/quit right before the season started (4 days!). It was handled very, very badly and he did privately coach one kid last year's bouldering season.

 

My daughter did not like the new coach at all nor did she want to train by herself and so (living near a place with 4 climbing gyms within walking distance of each other) moved to a different team.  That has not been without some issues, but we are going along.

 

Respectfully, I don't think that your email will do much good (speaking from experience here) and may even be used against you if a new coach is brought in. Climbing politics can be nasty (at least here). I think your priority should be getting your daughter ready for regionals. I would go with the private coaching (even if you have to drive a long time for a gym) at least until the season is over, which is not that long really--end of February.  Then if you do ropes, you can start a team/coach/better situation search.

I am sorry for your situation. It is so frustrating to have the rug pulled our from under you.  :grouphug:

Well, we are waiting for the gym to show their cards, whether or not they will hire S back or if they will let him at least coach.  If the gym can't make things work for us, many of us are looking to have S as a private coach.  If that doesn't work, we will end up biting the bullet and driving to the very well-respected program much farther away. 

 

Fortunately, here in the Midwest, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of competition politics.  Some coaches at other gyms in our region have taken our kids under their wing at Regionals and beyond when we didn't have our own coach.  They are really decent people.  It is the internal corporate politics of our local gym that has caused this problem.  I don't see it biting us.  We are their source of revenue.  We go to this gym because it is more convenient.  I've always known that I could get better coaching at this other gym.  When we finally got S as a coach, I no longer felt the need to go to this other gym. 

 

I don't have kids who rock climb other than for fun, but I would take a different tack with the gym manager. I would find out who he reports to at corporate and send that person a detailed list of the manager's failed promises and the work you have done yourself to keep this team together. I would make sure that corporate is aware that customers are in favor of S remaining, and that customers are not impressed with the manager on many levels. I would list the amount of money you have spent, that the whole rock climbing team has spent and request a refund if this situation is not dealt with fairly. I would not bother with the manager. I would appeal to higher sources and be tough with them.

I asked about talking things up to corporate and some of the other parents who have been around longer sort of laughed.  The corporate manager has a reputation of being a first class a$$hat. 

 

DS rock climb's for fun at our gym and debated joining a local climbing team at a rock climbing gym. He has done local comps so I am familiar with the politics a bitI have no clue what a partner is though.

I meant training buddies - it's a little more like a gymnastics team.  The individual effort is what matters.  The team competition doesn't really matter all that much except for bragging rights.  But having a team where everyone is rooting for each other really helps morale in tough competitions.

[Χά�ων]

 

I meant training buddies - it's a little more like a gymnastics team.  The individual effort is what matters.  The team competition doesn't really matter all that much except for bragging rights.  But having a team where everyone is rooting for each other really helps morale in tough competitions.

 

Ok thanks for clarifying!

 

I took DS to watch and cheer for his friends as the competed in regionals last year and I knew about the team points, but wanted to make sure I didn't miss something.

[Harriet Vane]

A couple of you said that my email (which was sent) was inflammatory.  I am confused.  What about it is problematic?  I was simply passing on information and expressing my admiration for him as coach.  I wanted to the parents a heads up because I knew a couple of kids on team had heard the news and it was going to spread like wildfire. I also wanted to pass on the coach's sincere, heartfelt message about how much he loved coaching these kids.  This email is WAY toned down from the conversations that have been going on with team parents, who are also livid. 

 

The gym will have their say at the next team practice.  Based upon past experience, I know that it will be a spin job. 

 

 

Dear Climbing Team Parents,

 

I received a message this morning from S, the coach of advanced team. He was fired from <our gym> this morning.   I do not know all the details, but he feels it was an unfair situation and is appealing to get his job back.   I know that he has behaved with the utmost professionalism as far as coaching is concerned, going far above what <our gym> has required of coaches in the past due to the fact that he cared so much about the kids.  He wanted me to tell the team families because he did not want the kids to be blindsided on Tuesday.  " 

 

I added an excerpt of what S told me about how much he loved coaching the kids and enjoyed watching them grow as climbers and as people and how he will miss them. He added something about hoping things can be worked out.

 

I highlighted in red those things that are more inflammatory. The words "fired" and "blindsided" are more emotional and quite negative. The other statement about his feeling it is unfair makes it very, very hard for the gym to hire him back. If you want him back in this gym, then you cannot publicly call them out in writing. It also makes it hard for the gym to want to do anything for you or your kid if you are the "troublemaker."

 

Here's how you might rewrite:

 

I learned this morning that S, the coach of the advanced team, will not be coaching at <our gym> at this time. I do not know all the details, but my understanding is that S is pursuing any available options to continue the positive coaching relationship he has had with the team. It has been my observation that he has behaved with the utmost professionalism as far as coaching is concerned, going far above what <our gym> has required of coaches in the past. S loved coaching the kids and enjoyed watching them grow as climbers and as people. Let's all hope that things can be worked out. Feel free to contact me with any further questions.

 

Of course, this does not prevent you from talking to the other families in a more forthright manner. In writing, though, I would tone it down and keep the message more general.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Dear Climbing Team Parents,

 

I received a message this morning from S, the coach of advanced team. He was fired from <our gym> this morning.   I do not know all the details, but he feels it was an unfair situation and is appealing to get his job back.   I know that he has behaved with the utmost professionalism as far as coaching is concerned, going far above what <our gym> has required of coaches in the past due to the fact that he cared so much about the kids.  He wanted me to tell the team families because he did not want the kids to be blindsided on Tuesday.  " 

 

I added an excerpt of what S told me about how much he loved coaching the kids and enjoyed watching them grow as climbers and as people and how he will miss them. He added something about hoping things can be worked out.

 

I highlighted in red those things that are more inflammatory. The words "fired" and "blindsided" are more emotional and quite negative. The other statement about his feeling it is unfair makes it very, very hard for the gym to hire him back. If you want him back in this gym, then you cannot publicly call them out in writing. It also makes it hard for the gym to want to do anything for you or your kid if you are the "troublemaker."

 

Here's how you might rewrite:

 

I learned this morning that S, the coach of the advanced team, will not be coaching at <our gym> at this time. I do not know all the details, but my understanding is that S is pursuing any available options to continue the positive coaching relationship he has had with the team. It has been my observation that he has behaved with the utmost professionalism as far as coaching is concerned, going far above what <our gym> has required of coaches in the past. S loved coaching the kids and enjoyed watching them grow as climbers and as people. Let's all hope that things can be worked out. Feel free to contact me with any further questions.

 

Of course, this does not prevent you from talking to the other families in a more forthright manner. In writing, though, I would tone it down and keep the message more general.

 

I guess I didn't see it as inflammatory, just the truth.  He was fired. He didn't quit.  It wasn't a "going our separate ways" kind of thing. The manager used that word when speaking to another team parent who happened to be at the gym today.  This wasn't a public notice - just an email to a select group of parents of kids directly coached by S, the ones who would be directly affected.  And "blindsided" is exactly how I felt when I heard about it, as was S, himself.

 

I know that the best way for S to get his job back would be for the manager to know how much the parents want him back - if he knew how much it mattered to the paying customers.  If it was made to sound like "they went their separate ways",it would have been easier for the manager to spin it in a way that made it look like S didn't care about the kids.  S wanted us to know that he was fighting to get his job back, that he wasn't giving up.

 

[Harriet Vane]

 

 

I am not in any way denying the truth of what you wrote. I fully believe every detail you have shared here, and I fully trust that the situation is as wrong and unfair as you say it is. My suggestions were in the spirit of trying to salvage the situation for S and for your daughter.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The e-mail has already been sent, hasn't it?  Or did I read that wrong?  

[Harriet Vane]

The e-mail has already been sent, hasn't it?  Or did I read that wrong?  

 

I missed the parenthetical note that it had been sent. I thought it was still in progress.

 

Ellen, I would not have continued suggesting rewrites had I read more carefully and realized that you had already sent your email. I'm sorry. In light of that, my own post probably looks critical, and that was not my intent.

[Cera]

Honestly, it sounds like even if S gets his coaching job back there will be underlying issues at this gym.  I think at this point you might be better off joining the climbing team at the gym an hour away and setting up a carpool to handle the drive (since it sounds like there are other parents who would be interested).  Keep the membership to the local gym and the kids who have all moved on to the new gym could meet once or twice a week at the closer place for informal practice sessions (perhaps with S coaching them privately occasionally).

[dirty ethel rackham]

I am not in any way denying the truth of what you wrote. I fully believe every detail you have shared here, and I fully trust that the situation is as wrong and unfair as you say it is. My suggestions were in the spirit of trying to salvage the situation for S and for your daughter.

I understand what you are saying.  We've gone with the "diplomatic" version in the past, but it did not help our cause.  When S was pulled before, we had listened to the gym spin things to make it look good for them and the families involved just accepted it.  I do not trust the gym to be honest with us.  I know that the "diplomatic" version was not going to help S. It would only help the manager smooth things over for the parents who do not have such a long history with the manager's shenanigans. 

I missed the parenthetical note that it had been sent. I thought it was still in progress.

 

Ellen, I would not have continued suggesting rewrites had I read more carefully and realized that you had already sent your email. I'm sorry. In light of that, my own post probably looks critical, and that was not my intent.

No worries.  I trust that you only had the best intentions:).

 

Honestly, it sounds like even if S gets his coaching job back there will be underlying issues at this gym.  I think at this point you might be better off joining the climbing team at the gym an hour away and setting up a carpool to handle the drive (since it sounds like there are other parents who would be interested).  Keep the membership to the local gym and the kids who have all moved on to the new gym could meet once or twice a week at the closer place for informal practice sessions (perhaps with S coaching them privately occasionally).

You nailed it.  Yes there will be issues.  There have been issues.  The best bet for S and for our kids for the short term is him getting his job back.  He was one of the few full-time employees.  He needs the job in order to pay his bills and fulfill his long term goals.  He had to sign a 3-year non-compete clause in his employment contract.  So he cannot work for another climbing gym, not that there are many local gyms who would need full-time help or his specialized experience.  Our second option would be to hire S as a private coach and have to work things so that we don't violate his non-compete clause. We are thinking of calling him a fitness coach and having him train the kids out of a gym that doesn't have a climbing team.   But he still needs a job to live.  Our third option would be joining this other team.  It is not just the inconvenience of driving, but the extra 6 hours a week of commuting would take away from dd's time to get schoolwork done and do other things that she enjoys.  She is not a great car-schooler. 

[Vera]

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this right now. The timing is terrible.

 

It is my understanding that a non-compete clause is pretty much unenforceable. He will not be taking trade secrets with him. He should speak with a lawyer. Coaching is his livelihood and it would be very difficult for the gym to enforce the denial of his livelihood. As far as I know, the gym can't prevent him from coming in to coach the kids privately. We have explored that option a bit also. Technically, your daughter and S would just be climbing together.

 

Unfortunately, car schooling is something that my daughter has had to get very good at. I think she actually kind of likes it now.

[Χά�ων]

Honestly, I live rural. I am an hour from any sheet of ice for DS to practice. We get up earlier, DS does more dry land training and I make the commute work 3x a week because it is a priority for DS to speed skate. Only one rink is an hour away. The next closest is 90 minutes and there are two more 2 hours away. DS's coac wants him to go to the rink 2 hours away for more ice time. I am rearranging things to try and make it work. I may just send him with his coach and chip in a few bucks for gas.

 

I searched and found a costco and trader joes near one of the rinks and I combine the trip to make it work. I drop DS at the ice rink and I go grocery shopping or take my laptop and prep lessons or I make a run to walmart or thirft stores to get things I would otherwise need. This allows me to not have to do my grocery and household shopping another time during the week and frees up time for me to make the trek to the ice rinks. DS and I were up at 4am to get in 4 hours a day of dryland and school work last school year. Did we love getting up so early? No. Was it worth it to get in that much and still have family and play time in the evening? Yes.

 

My only other option is to sell the farm and move. I am unwilling to do that because of the drastic increase in taxes and cost of living (we homestead) to move to the city would off set the savings in gas. If the drive is that bad, moving may be an option for you.

 

I am considering putting in a sheet of ice this winter to make a place for DS to practice. I am building a bouldering area for DS at his request so I know the instructions are online and it is not all that expensive. Your DD could practice at home. You never said, does she do her non climbing conditioning at that gym? If so I would find a different gym. If does not do any conditioning I have to ask why? Yoga is highly encouraged at the climb team here and conditioning goes with all sports. It would only benefit her and help her make the most of her instructional time. You sound pretty serious about this so conditioning should be included.

[Pippen]

I would be very surprised if the non-compete clause is valid if they release him as opposed to him opting to leave.

 

A lot of places are finding ways to push full-time employees out the door, especially those that can easily be replaced by part-timers.

[Harriet Vane]

A three-year non-compete clause for a coach is completely ridiculous. It basically says that if he doesn't work for that specific company he has to move to an entirely different geographical area?!?!  I think he should speak with a lawyer about that one.

[musicianmom]

I really don't think non-compete clauses can work when someone has been fired.

[dirty ethel rackham]

UPDATE:  Thanks to all of you for your input.  There have been a flurry of emails and phone conversations between parents and the management over the last two days.  The gym manager has confirmed that they will not be hiring S back to work  at the gym.  However, we are working on a bunch of us forming our own team and hiring S as the coach and still using the same facilities.  There are other coaches who bring their kids to our gym to get practice on our walls, so there is precedent.  There has been no mention of the non-compete clause in these emails.  There will be a parent meeting with the management this evening. 

 

Can I ask for your prayers?  Please pray that we can be appropriately assertive with management during this meeting as he has been known to spin things and make things look good without really doing what we ask.  Also, please pray for a decent resolution that can work for our kids and the families involved. 

[Chris in VA]

Will def pray for you. HOpe it all works out!

[Catwoman]

Praying here -- I hope you're able to get the situation resolved. It's good that other parents feel as you do.

[MysteryJen]

Thinking of you here. Hope tonight went well.

[Catwoman]

Hoping for an update soon! :)

[Guest submarines]

Thinking of you.  :grouphug:

[hillfarm]

  Please pray that we can be appropriately assertive with management during this meeting as he has been known to spin things and make things look good without really doing what we ask.  Also, please pray for a decent resolution that can work for our kids and the families involved. 

 

Tell him that you will need any promises he makes in writing, on company letterhead, signed by him by a specified date or it will be assumed that he is being intentionally misleading. If he balks, mention that there have been misunderstandings of what has been said in the past and that you want to avoid that with this situation. If he won't put it in writing, then he is not planning to make good on the promise. You can take notes, read them back to him to see if he will verify that is what he promised, and then have two unrelated witnesses sign off on them and date them (right in front of him). Not really legally binding, but will often put a scare in anyone planning to lie their way out of a situation.

 

Regarding taking S in as a private coach, I would start documenting specific dates when other coaches were permitted to work with their climbers in the gym and were not harassed or barred. So if any complaints popped up about S being there, you could detail other SPECIFIC situations where similar coaching had been permitted to occur.

 

Don't play your whole hand at the meeting unless it will serve your purposes. Keep your information on a need to know basis, and the gym manager doesn't need to know what your private arrangements are with S, nor that you plan to leave or work exclusively with S or whatever. Giving him too much information will only give him the opportunity to try to cause more trouble.

 

Keep copies of any advertising that made promises that you feel have been broken. Do not allow the manager to get hold of your originals of these ads. He might stoop so low as to try to destroy them to prevent any sort of false advertising law suit. Be calm, but be ready to refer to your desire to see the gym live up to its promises, and reference them specifically.

 

If there are any large colleges or universities in your area, their student recreation centers might have a decent climbing set up that you could arrange to use, especially during the times when students are on winter break. Not necessarily an ideal situation but perhaps one that would allow your team to get in those last critical practices prior to competitions.

 

It is fine if the larger, adult climbing community is not into competitions. However, I would hope that, in the face of such terrible health and weight epidemics among our nation's youth, they could be gracious enough to at least keep their criticisms to themselves if young people want to participate and compete in the sport in an organized way. How is a youth competition hurting them in any way? Besides, I strongly suspect there is a good deal of undercurrent competition when it comes to sponsorships, gear endorsements, etc. At least the kids are more open about it.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Thanks for your prayers.  I am a bit too tired to give a complete update, but the meeting went a little better than expected.  Due to the fact that S signed a non-compete clause as part of his employment, he cannot do any coaching at our gym.  After a heated discussion with the management, the team kids agreed to give the new coach a chance while we (quietly) plan to hire S to run some private clinics at other gyms.  There has been talk of "defecting" to another gym that has a quality team, but after several parents made inquiries, we found out that they only have room for one or two more climbers. My daughter would likely be his 3rd choice among the kids who would be interested and capable of going over to his program, which means it would be unlikely she would make their elite team.  One thing this crisis did is unite several of the parents and encourage them to speak up.  Previously, I felt like I had been the only one complaining.    They have much to do to earn our trust.  The new coach (brought up from one of the lower level teams) is a nice enough guy and seems earnest and eager to learn as much as he can to be the best coach he can be for these kids, he is not even close to S.  We made clear what we expect out of the coach as well as what we expect from the developmental program as we have 3 graduating seniors on team this year and not much in the pipeline.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ellen - S really needs to hire a lawyer to look at the non- compete clause.  PPs made very good points about the possible legality of that clause since they fired him.  

[dirty ethel rackham]

Oh, and there will be a recap sent out to the families who could not be there that will outline what was said in the meeting and all the agreements we arranged.  Those who attended will have an opportunity to comment on this before it is set in stone. 

[Catwoman]

Thank you for the update -- I'm glad the parents seem to be sticking together and that you're not the only one who is upset over the situation.

[plansrme]

I am a lawyer and have enough experience with non-competes to know that S needs to research its enforceability in his state. If anyone knows an employment lawyer in that state, he could probably get a free answer. Three years does sound extreme, but states vary wildly in what is considered reasonable and what happens if it is not reasonable. Some states would invalidate the entire contract, while others would reduce it to something that is reasonable. And of course, the gym would have to sue S to enforce it, which means they would have to pay a lawyer, which they may or may not be willing to do.

[unsinkable]

Ellen,

 

I'm sorry your DD is going through this.

 

The anxiety our family has gone through over kids' sports has been ridiculous, so I know how you feel.

 

Sometimes, in hockey, spectators yell, " just let them play!" when the refs are over calling a game. I wish it was like that for all kids, in all sports:

 

Just Let Them Play.

[unsinkable]

I am a lawyer and have enough experience with non-competes to know that S needs to research its enforceability in his state. If anyone knows an employment lawyer in that state, he could probably get a free answer. Three years does sound extreme, but states vary wildly in what is considered reasonable and what happens if it is not reasonable. Some states would invalidate the entire contract, while others would reduce it to something that is reasonable. And of course, the gym would have to sue S to enforce it, which means they would have to pay a lawyer, which they may or may not be willing to do.

Are non-competes common in jobs at this level? It seems like a over reaction to have a worker at a small gym sign one. Can you explain?

 

I could see if it was a gym where a trainer worked with clients and they wouldn't want the trainer to leave and take the clients.

[TXBeth]

I wonder if what they are calling a "non-compete" is actually something saying he cannot take clients with him, rather than that he can not work for other gyms.

[MysteryJen]

Well, it sounds like it went as well as could be expected. As to the non-compete clause, Sill really needs to talk to a lawyer. Sorry the other gym did not work out, it would have nice to have that as a bargaining chip.

 

Still thinking about you guys today.