s/o Redshirting - Poll

[angela in ohio]

Depends on the area here. In the rural area we live in, it is really unusual to red-shirt girls and uncommon to red-shirt boys. In the more suburban areas where dc attend activities and lessons, it is odd not to red-shirt your summer boy and it is common for girls as well. We even know some April and May babies who were held back. I have read several articles that tie it to SES, and I have to say that is what I have observed locally as well.

 

We red-shirted my youngest ds. HIs birthday is in late June. He is academically advanced, but because we homeschool he works at his own pace anyway, so his grade matters little. This way he doesn't graduate at 17 and head off to college at barely 18.  I know quite a few 17 and 18 yo young men, even really wonderful ones, and what I have learned is that some extra time with mom and dad close by couldn't hurt. ;)

[AndyJoy]

I know 5 boys with late August or early September birthdays who make the state's October cutoff for K this year.  When I was chatting with their moms a few months ago, 4 were on the fence and 1 was planning to homeschool and call him K.  Of the 4, 2 have been redshirted and are doing 3-day-a-week pre-K and the other two are in Montessori K in a classroom that includes 3-6 year-olds.  Of our four public elementary schools, only the one in the affluent neighborhood still has half-day K.  All of them have 30 kids in a class.  I have no idea if this is typical of my community at large, but among my middle-class, educated, SAHM friends it is a pretty common practice to redshirt boys or send them to a school with a gentler introduction to the overcrowded, highly structured classroom.

 

I know just one girl with an early September birthday.  A year ago her mom was considering redshirting her because she considered her immature.  My thought at the time was that a lot can change in a year.  Sure enough, the mom changed her mind and she is in K on schedule now.  Another friend's daughter doesn't make the state cutoff, but she has been admitted early to a local private school.

 

None of my friends whose kids have birthdays in June/July considered redshirting as far as I can tell.

[Soror]

http://homeschooling.penelopetrunk.com/2012/12/25/grouping-by-age-is-motivated-by-cost-not-learning/

 

Some interesting thoughts...

That article brings up a point I forgot to mention, adhd and medication. I cannot believe I left that out because it is a HUGE concern. Medication is so common it has sadly become a joke. I know that many with boys especially are very worried that not redshirting will lead to their child being labeled and pushed towards meds.

[DawnM]

That is too late IMO.

 

I thought California's Dec. 2nd was late.

 

I was just glad California's cut off was Dec. 2nd as I had a child born Dec. 16th and didn't have to make that decision, it was made for me.

 

Dawn

 

 

Where I live cutoff is Dec 31st so we are talking about kids with birthdays in late fall through December.  About 10-15 years ago you saw many parents redshirting.  It has now fallen out of favor because in many cases people found that the older children (turning 6) have had issues with a class full of 4 and 5 year olds , that is geared towards the 4 and 5 year olds. There can be an enormous jump in abilities from the time a child is turning 5 to the time they are 6.  When my son started Kindergarten 5 years ago, 11 of the children in his class of 18 had September birthdays (including him).  All were turning 5.  Now, the only people I see redhirting are those who have children with disabilities.

 

I know though, that this is just my area. I'm sure things are different in other places.  Varying cutoffs can make quite a difference.

 

[DawnM]

I had not heard of this much until I moved to North Carolina.  

[mommyto4]

In Ontario, there is no red-shirting.  My daughter, who was born on December 30, 2008, would be starting senior Kindergarten -- I would not be allowed to hold her back a year.  I have heard that a very few December boys have been given permission by their principal to be held back a year...

[Arcadia]

Medication is so common it has sadly become a joke. I know that many with boys especially are very worried that not redshirting will lead to their child being labeled and pushed towards meds.

That may be why redshirting is so rare in my area. There is no push for labelling or medication. Push (nagging) for evaluation by the school is not until 3rd grade/8 years old.

The children with labels from kindergarten are from my district's early intervention program from three years old. Or parents has been the one asking for evaluations. Most kindergarten teachers are very accomodating. These factors probably reduce the parents' panic to redshirt a lot.

[Mom0012]

I think it is pretty common, at least with boys, in our area. My son made the cutoff for K by 2 weeks. I decided to give him an extra year to mature and officially say he was in K even though I still worked with him that first year. Best decision I ever made. Now, my dd just missed the cutoff, and I briefly thought about advancing her, but then decided I wanted her home as long as possible. She is accelerated in her school work, but I still don't regret not advancing her.

 

Interestingly, my sister's kids all have special needs and summer birthdays and she didn't hold any of them back. She wanted her girl to go to school with her friends, and her oldest boy had services through the school from a young age that he would have lost if he didn't go straight into K. The girl has done fine. Both boys are struggling tremendously, to the point of failing, but I doubt very much holding them back a year would have made a difference in their situation. They both need more help than they are ever going to get from the school and my sister isn't able to work them.

[Mom0012]

Redshirting is not common in our area. In fact, our state recently moved the cutoff from Oct.15 to Sept.1, and there were a lot of impassioned complaints from moms whose Sept/Oct boys no longer made the cutoff. At our church (where we are the only homeschooling family), there are about 250 children in elementary and middle school. Only 5 of those children are redshirted. Those 5 children are all boys with summer birthdays who are transplants from areas where redshirting is more common. My friends who work or volunteer in the schools say that this is consistent with what they see in our local elementary schools.

 

I am personally opposed to redshirting. The research doesn't back it up, and I've known too many redshirted kids who wound up having serious problems in middle school or high school. I do fully support parents in making what they feel is the right decision for their individual child. We are all up against the expectations in our local kindergarten, and we have to make decisions for our children within that framework. It must be a tough issue for parents who live in an area where redshirting is common.

 

I do find the whole issue fascinating. The school raises expectations for kindergarten. Parents start holding kids back in response to the new expectations. The school raises expectations even more in response to having an older and more mature kindergarten class. More parents hold their kids back. The school moves its start date back to reflect what parents are doing. Even more parents hold their kids back, and on, and on, and on. It seems like an unstoppable cycle! Where does it end?! The weird thing is that I don't see that extra year shaking out as an advantage in the end (though it may be the right choice for an individual). I don't see high schoolers scoring higher on their SAT's, accomplishing more academically, or showing more maturity. If kindergarten is the new 1st grade then why don't we see better results in 12th grade? Where did that extra year of academic instruction go?

I held my son back because it was the best decision for him. He has some lds and is young for his age. Still is and does so much better with kids a little younger than him. If he was in the grade he was supposed to be in due to the arbitrary cut off date, I think this difference would stand out even more because even though he is homeschooled, he is placed in activities/coop classes based on his grade.

 

I know a lot of boys who have some sort of ld or issue and it seems to make sense to give them the time they need to mature and be developmentally ready. I think this could be the reason many people who redshirt make this decision. I do not know the facts, but I was always under the impression that the schools started upping the ante (sp?) when NCLB went into effect rather than because some of the younger children were being held back from K for a year. I would suspect another reason the schools may have advanced the curriculum is because, at least where I am, almost all children go to preschool starting at 3 and by the time they get to K, they already know their numbers and letters and many can read.

[ScoutTN]

Redshirting boys with summer birthdays is very common here in private school families and more affluent areas and realtively common among homeschoolers. Not so common in my neighborhood! All public school around here and money is tight. 

 

Private school cut off dates are often as early as April. Public school cutoff just got moved from Oct. 15 to August 31.

 

Redshirting is rare with girls here in any circumstances other than LD. 

 

We kept our DS back last year and have been confirmed in that decision over and over again.  He just needed one more year to play and be little.  

Formal schooling was not what he needed to do last year. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MistyMountain]

I'm not sure of the actual percentage in my city. Among people I know it is higher than the overall percentage. People either start summer kids late or do two years of kindergarten but that is among a select group of people who value education and don't want their kid to have a hard time in school or be with with kids that are more mature.

 

I do find the whole issue fascinating. The school raises expectations for kindergarten. Parents start holding kids back in response to the new expectations. The school raises expectations even more in response to having an older and more mature kindergarten class. More parents hold their kids back. The school moves its start date back to reflect what parents are doing. Even more parents hold their kids back, and on, and on, and on. It seems like an unstoppable cycle! Where does it end?! The weird thing is that I don't see that extra year shaking out as an advantage in the end (though it may be the right choice for an individual). I don't see high schoolers scoring higher on their SAT's, accomplishing more academically, or showing more maturity. If kindergarten is the new 1st grade then why don't we see better results in 12th grade? Where did that extra year of academic instruction go?

This drives me crazy. I hate this trend and my kids fall victim to it since they are born right after the cut off. My son is mostly academically ready for kindergarten except for hand writing but I don't get why all kindergartners need to be able to write sentences and read. When I went to school reading wasn't taught at all and we had no handwriting expectations and the school I went toin kindergarten had higher expectations. Kindergarten is more like a first grade. If boys are less able to sit in kindergarten then maybe kindergarten needs to keep them in mind. Boys learn just as fast as girls. I don't like the fact my kids will be nearly 19 years old when they graduate high school. That is crazy to me. They lose out on a whole year of earnings. I was the oldest when the cut off was in December and I thought all the kids were so immature and I was bored. Not all kids benefit from being the oldest. I didn't like being 18.5 when I graduated and nearing 19 when I started college. I was more ready to be done before that.

[Dmmetler]

I'm guessing, although I don't have any proof, that areas with better supports may well see less red-shirting. In my area, kids who struggle are largely left to flounder until they fail the state test-few kids are tested, for any reason, before 3rd or 4th grade. If your child seems at all developmentally immature, I can see where waiting that year in the hope that your child will struggle less would be very preferable to three to four years of struggling. Similarly, I never would have pursued entering DD in K early were it not that the supports provided for accelerated kids were so minimal, so entering her early meant she still had SOME challenges. Although, in 20/20 hindsight, I wish I'd just homeschooled from day 1 and skipped the whole PS labeling thing entirely.

[Sherry in OH]

We live in a school district with an age 5 by September 30^th kindergarten cut-off.  Neighboring school districts have an August 1^st cut-off.  Thus, red-shirting boys with August and September birthdays is almost a given among families who can afford to do so.  Given the meandering school district boundaries, some of this red-shirting may be unintentional. Some parents of January through July birthday children also delay kindergarten, but it is less common.  Lower income families, especially those who have subsidized childcare, are more likely to enroll their children as soon as they become eligible, even in cases where the school district recommends waiting.

[Tammyla]

It's so common here, that we actually have Kindergarten and alternative-K in our district along with regular pre-K.

[MinivanMom]

Something that someone brought up in another thread was that redshirting means that in some areas there are now routinely girls in a class with boys that are nearly two years older than them.  On the one hand, I don't really have any problem with mixed age groups.  But on the other hand, the way school segregates kids by grade means that it's a weighted group where there are lots of older boys and lots of younger girls and some kids in the middle, which is different from a group where the ages are just naturally spread out...  I don't know...  it just feels like an added negative social aspect to this phenomenon to me, though it's possible that I'm not fully thinking it through.

 

This is a really interesting issue.  I think the idea of girls being in class with boys who are up to 2 years older than them really bothers me from an academic perspective (never mind the potential social ramifications).  I really worry that girls who are already "good" in class - hanging back to let the boys answer questions, not wanting to participate in class discussions where boys might dominate - are going to find that dynamic intensified when the boys are much older and physically larger than them.  We always talk about school not being developmentally appropriate for young boys, but there is tons of research showing that (female) teachers often favor boys, call on them more, allow them to call out answers and dominate class discussions, etc.  I worry that the redshirting is only going to make that dynamic worse.  It makes me want to scoop all those "good" girls up and put them in an all girls school where it's a safer emotional environment for participation and excelling in math and science.

 

As a mother of boys I have real issues with the idea that 18-19 yr old boys could be attending high school with girls who are much younger, especially in elective classes where you often have all grades mixed together.  You are talking about a situation where two high schoolers (who consider themselves peers) could start dating, but the age gap is outside the legal limit.  Heaven forbid your 18-19 yr old son has s*xual contact with his 14-15 yr old girlfriend.  In many states that's going to be statutory r*pe! 

[Soror]

Around here lower SECs are more likely to begin formal school early through the Head Start program. Those w/ money generally have sahms and delay entrance until k.

[happypamama]

I don't know for sure, but I would suspect that red-shirting is not all that common in my area. I'm not entirely sure of the cut-off, but I have a little guy who will be 5 in late October. If I were sending him to school, I would do it this year, because while he isn't reading or writing much yet, he's ready to do so, but more importantly, he is emotionally and socially ready to be a kindergartener. He sits pretty well, follows directions well, has done extremely well in a classroom setting, and he's fairly average in size for his age. With a big leap, academically, between 5 and 6, I think he'd end up bored if I waited to send him until next year. Of my three older kids, this is the one that I can see actually thriving in a classroom. (Of course, I'm glad I can keep him here with me.) Because of the way the PA law works, I won't have to register this child until he's actually almost 9, but whether we'll call that 3rd grade or 4th grade will depend on where he is at that point. When given the choice between being called preK4 and K this year, he wanted to be both (because, as he says, he's the middle child and gets to be both a big kid and a little kid).

 

Otoh, my first son is a Feb. birthday, but he wasn't ready at 6.5, much less 5.5, to go to school. If I hadn't planned to homeschool, I'd have changed my mind in a hurry with this child. I'd have at least red-shirted him.

 

Not sure about my two littlest boys, who have summer birthdays. DS4 will either be the very youngest or the very oldest in his grade, and I won't know which year I have to register him until that year arrives, because PA law says I have to register him when he's 8 within two weeks of the school year beginning, and the school year's start date varies -- this year, it was two days after his birthdate, but it could easily be before his birthdate as well.

 

I wish the whole system were more fluid all around, so that there was no stigma or anything, so that kids could start kindergarten anywhere from 4-7 without any issues, and float back and forth, taking more time when needed and skipping ahead when appropriate. I guess that's why I homeschool.

[musicianmom]

This drives me crazy. I hate this trend and my kids fall victim to it since they are born right after the cut off. My son is mostly academically ready for kindergarten except for hand writing but I don't get why all kindergartners need to be able to write sentences and read. When I went to school reading wasn't taught at all and we had no handwriting expectations and the school I went toin kindergarten had higher expectations. Kindergarten is more like a first grade. If boys are less able to sit in kindergarten then maybe kindergarten needs to keep them in mind. Boys learn just as fast as girls. I don't like the fact my kids will be nearly 19 years old when they graduate high school. That is crazy to me. They lose out on a whole year of earnings. I was the oldest when the cut off was in December and I thought all the kids were so immature and I was bored. Not all kids benefit from being the oldest. I didn't like being 18.5 when I graduated and nearing 19 when I started college. I was more ready to be done before that.

You're the only person I've heard point this out, though I've heard it. The "gift of time" business -- you can't give time. It's like Daylight Savings Time, you're taking away from one end to extend the other end. You're extending the preschool years at the expense of productive adult life, when the young person could be earning money, finding a spouse, etc.

 

It's bad enough that a high school diploma isn't enough anymore to be able to earn a living, and you have to tack several more years of job training before living an independent adult life. Now kids are having to wait a year or more past legal age even to get that bare minimum of a hs diploma, because of inappropriate expectations placed on 5-year-olds in our crazy education system.

 

I'm weird. It's one of my pet peeves. Red-shirting, misplaced apostrophes, and the incorrect use of "like." When I'm Empress, I'll do away with all of them.

[Farrar]

Some people are starting to bring up one of the really important dynamics of this, which is class.  While I'm sure sometimes working class and lower middle class families scrape together a way to redshirt a child when it seems really necessary, this is by and large a middle and upper class phenomenon done by people who are educated about the system and trying to game it out to make it work best for their kids (and I don't fault them for it!  just trying to make a point).  And in order to do it you have to have the money to send a child to preschool for an additional year or the resources to have a parent home full time.

 

If a large number of middle and upper class children are redshirted, but almost no working and lower middle class children are, then how does that reinforce class dynamics?  This seems like an issue that's ripe to be studied if it hasn't already been.

[extendedforecast]

I have no idea. How the heck do you get this information? We red-shirted my daughter with a summer birthday when it became obvious she wasn't mature enough to go to school. We pulled her out in October. I have another one with an August birthday that will probably wait another year before starting school. The only other kids I know who are my daughter's age and in the same grade were held back a year in elementary. That is far more common than red-shirting. The same is true among her peers in sports.

 

I think parents should do what is best for their child in these situations. Children develop at different rates, and it's not fair to adhere a one size fits all rule.

[musicianmom]

Some people are starting to bring up one of the really important dynamics of this, which is class. While I'm sure sometimes working class and lower middle class families scrape together a way to redshirt a child when it seems really necessary, this is by and large a middle and upper class phenomenon done by people who are educated about the system and trying to game it out to make it work best for their kids (and I don't fault them for it! just trying to make a point). And in order to do it you have to have the money to send a child to preschool for an additional year or the resources to have a parent home full time.

 

If a large number of middle and upper class children are redshirted, but almost no working and lower middle class children are, then how does that reinforce class dynamics? This seems like an issue that's ripe to be studied if it hasn't already been.

And upper-class parents don't feel as much pressure to get their young adult offspring off the family payroll and self-supporting, so an extra year doesn't matter. Just a hypothesis.

[Farrar]

And upper-class parents don't feel as much pressure to get their young adult offspring off the family payroll and self-supporting, so an extra year doesn't matter. Just a hypothesis.

 

Exactly.  The whole idea of redshirting seems like it inevitably comes from a place of privilege.

[Mom0012]

.

 

[Mom0012]

Exactly.  The whole idea of redshirting seems like it inevitably comes from a place of privilege.

 

 

Privilege isn't a popular topic on these boards :)

 

It is absolutely a class based practice where I live. You can put a map of where boys are redshirted most over a map of socio-economic areas, and you would see that the practice is almost exclusive to higher socio-economic areas. It's just another way things are stacked against you if you are working class, another opportunity it's harder for you to take advantage of.

I never thought of it that way, but I guess all of us on these boards are privileged, though, if we're able to homeschool.  Surely, that is far more of a privilege than holding your child back for one year in school.

[duckabell]

Has anyone mentioned the trend towards all-day kindergarten?  The cutoff date for my school district is July 31st but parents are able to appeal to put their children in if their birthday is before August 31st.  My son's birthday is in mid-August and I decided to send him this year, where he turned 6 the week school started.  I might have been willing to appeal for him to go earlier if the school was half-day, but I didn't see him being socially mature enough for a full day of kindergarten.  His sister's birthday is also mid-August and I will appeal for her to go next year where she'll turn 5 the first week of school.  She will be socially mature enough but not as far ahead academically as he was when he went in.

 

I agree that it's partly a socioeconomic issue.  I'm not certain how common it is to red-shirt kids in kindergarten here as I haven't met many mothers through the school yet.  I do know that some of my friends with church with summer birthdays in June have sent their boys ahead, while a mother I know whose son is smaller for his age (July birthday) decided to send him when he's six.  We live in a higher-income area and that may make a difference too.

 

I also know that I feel comfortable sending my child to kindergarten when he's already reading at a third or fourth-grade level in this school district.  I see this school district as being more ready to handle advanced children than other school districts in the area.  If we lived in another district, I probably would have sent him last year or home schooled him.  The full day of kindergarten was a huge consideration for us of when to send our child to school.

[Soror]

I never thought of it that way, but I guess all of us on these boards are privileged, though, if we're able to homeschool.  Surely, that is far more of a privilege than holding your child back for one year in school.

Exactly.

 

Perhaps if we are going to advocate that redshirting stop due to the advantage it confers we should push towards stopping hs'ing as well. Of course private school generally gives an advantage as well. Most all parents do whatever they feel best for their children, according to their means, I don't believe that will change anytime soon.

[Parrothead]

I have no idea.

[Farrar]

I never thought of it that way, but I guess all of us on these boards are privileged, though, if we're able to homeschool. Surely, that is far more of a privilege than holding your child back for one year in school.

I think there are a lot of reasons that, as Sadie said, privilege isn't a popular topic here, but one of them is clearly what you say. But many people here have faced a huge amount of economic hardship and/or don't have a high level of formal education and still manage to homeschool and give up an income... But I think that too can create a "if I made it work for the sake of my kids, everyone should be able to" mentality.

[TraceyS/FL]

DD is a July girl, and was red shirted because she was lacking in phonological awareness. She entered public K late July and was still obviously ahead of her classmates. Her teacher had retired after 30 years up north, and decided to go back to teaching when the school needed K teachers. She's aid she wished more parents would hold their kids back these days. But they don't and you can't tell them otherwise. Her K class had 2 kids repeat K ( out of 20), they just weren't ready to learn to read. Being older isn't impacting her yet, but we will see how 3rd grade goes.

 

I recently came across my K report card..... It's almost comical to see what I was graded on. I keep meaning to post it. For the reord I was a November 27 baby in CA with a Dec 1 cut off and was not red-shirted. I was fine (driving that late in my junior year sucked!), but it is a case by case type of scenario in my mind.

[Soror]

I think there are a lot of reasons that, as Sadie said, privilege isn't a popular topic here, but one of them is clearly what you say. But many people here have faced a huge amount of economic hardship and/or don't have a high level of formal education and still manage to homeschool and give up an income... But I think that too can create a "if I made it work for the sake of my kids, everyone should be able to" mentality.

How could we discuss privilege in this context in a way that is helpful? Everyone posting on here is coming from a place of some privilege. I think it would be much more helpful to work on raising up those who are disadvantaged than trying to tear down those who are advantaged.

[Farrar]

How could we discuss privilege in this context in a way that is helpful? Everyone posting on here is coming from a place of some privilege. I think it would be much more helpful to work on raising up those who are disadvantaged than trying to tear down those who are advantaged.

Agreed. But I'm not sure. In the context of redshirting, I feel like I don't even have enough information. A lot of us said that we didn't really know how common it was. And while I'm sure socioeconomic status plays a big role, I don't feel like we know for sure. I find the same frustration over homeschooling - there's so little data, so it's hard to know how to get a conversation beyond the personal and anecdotal.

[Sherry in OH]

Has anyone mentioned the trend towards all-day kindergarten?  The cutoff date for my school district is July 31st but parents are able to appeal to put their children in if their birthday is before August 31st.  My son's birthday is in mid-August and I decided to send him this year, where he turned 6 the week school started.  I might have been willing to appeal for him to go earlier if the school was half-day, but I didn't see him being socially mature enough for a full day of kindergarten.  His sister's birthday is also mid-August and I will appeal for her to go next year where she'll turn 5 the first week of school.  She will be socially mature enough but not as far ahead academically as he was when he went in.

 

I agree that it's partly a socioeconomic issue.  I'm not certain how common it is to red-shirt kids in kindergarten here as I haven't met many mothers through the school yet.  I do know that some of my friends with church with summer birthdays in June have sent their boys ahead, while a mother I know whose son is smaller for his age (July birthday) decided to send him when he's six.  We live in a higher-income area and that may make a difference too.

 

I also know that I feel comfortable sending my child to kindergarten when he's already reading at a third or fourth-grade level in this school district.  I see this school district as being more ready to handle advanced children than other school districts in the area.  If we lived in another district, I probably would have sent him last year or home schooled him.  The full day of kindergarten was a huge consideration for us of when to send our child to school.

 

 

I don’t feel full day versus half-day kindergarten is a major part of the decision of when to send children to kindergarten. Many children enter kindergarten from full-time daycare/pre-school.  Public kindergarten here operates on an alternating 2-day and 3-day a week schedule, necessitating additional childcare.  This schedule is for economic rather than pedological reasons, extra bus runs are expensive. Parochial schools offer both half-day and full day programs.  I know several families who sent their children to parochial kindergartens and then switched to public school for first grade.  Some paid for kindergarten because they wanted a full day program, others because they preferred five-half days to the public school schedule.

 

My theory is that part of the solution to red-shirting is to make the compulsory education and the kindergarten eligibility dates the same, and to make it the same throughout the state.   As it is now in my state, kindergarten is optional, although school districts may require previously unregistered students to start in kindergarten.*  Compulsory education starts at age 6.  Parents who opt to wait are following compulsory education laws.  Most of the parents in my area who wait are doing so to keep their children on par with friends and relatives in neighboring school districts.  If all school districts had the same cut-off dates, this wouldn’t happen.  Wealthier parents who felt their children needed a slower or faster start would continue to turn to private and parochial schools.   

 

* My kindergartener and most other homeschooled kindergarten-age children in my area are considered unregistered because we do not send notification of intent to homeschool for children under the age of 6.  If for some reason, we decided not to homeschool next year, he would most likely be considered red-shirted and have to repeat kindergarten.   His brother would be considered a third grader because letters of notification and end of year evaluations would be on file for him and that is where his age would place him.     

[LucyStoner]

I never thought of it that way, but I guess all of us on these boards are privileged, though, if we're able to homeschool. Surely, that is far more of a privilege than holding your child back for one year in school.

It's a privilege to homeschool but it is not necessarily a sign of financial privilege. At least in the short term, homeschooling is costing us more than 1/2 our previous income, leaving us living off a pretty low amount, especially in a HCOL area. For us this is temporary as my husband is working on yet another degree which will more than double his earnings but from meeting other homeschooling families and reading this board, I see that a fair number of homeschoolers are living on modest amounts long term, especially when you consider the large size of many homeschooling families.

[musicianmom]

I was thinking about this some more, and now I see the discussion has shifted slightly. When I speak of privilege, I am speaking of the kind of homes where children are perceived as better off for having more time at home. I realized overnight that my perspective is different. My parents were both very poor growing up. The Depression did not end for their families! None of the children in their large families stayed home a minute longer than necessary. My grandmother pushed her kids out of the nest for their sakes (she told one of my uncles he needed to get away or he wouldn't amount to a hill of beans).

 

My parents were able to provide more for me, but only because they sacrificed a lot and chose not to have more children. There was still that sense of "When you grow up you'll be able to do better for yourself, so hurry and get there." So that mindset has stuck with me, even though my SES now falls into the more privileged category.

 

To address the last few posts, I don't think red-shirting should actually be forbidden (snarky Empress comment aside). I do think that K and 1st classes should stay structured for the proper age, not adjusted upward to accommodate the older kids. Parents who are considering red shirting should understand that they are sending their 6 1/2-year-old into a program that is designed for 5-year-olds.

[Soror]

To address the last few posts, I don't think red-shirting should actually be forbidden (snarky Empress comment aside). I do think that K and 1st classes should stay structured for the proper age, not adjusted upward to accommodate the older kids. Parents who are considering red shirting should understand that they are sending their 6 1/2-year-old into a program that is designed for 5-year-olds.

K in its current form was not designed for my son at 5 though and for a lot of other people as well, thus why we have chosen the option to redshirt.

[Chelli]

In our town in Texas almost all boys are red-shirted if they have a summer birthday. It usually doesn't have anything to do with academics and everything to do with a future sports career. They hold them back to be bigger on the football team, taller on the basketball team, stronger on the baseball team, etc. This goes for lower socio- economic children as well. It's just what you do here for boys.

 

I know of one girl who has a late August birthday (with a September 1st cut off here) she really, really, really needed to be red-shirted for academic reasons. She just wasn't ready, but you don't red-shirt girls here. Her parents hired me to tutor her during her first grade year because she was having a lot of difficulty with reading. They admitted that they wished they had red-shirted her, but it just isn't done around here unless you're a boy.

 

While I would love to say that this phenomena is related to testing, I am not sure in this case that it is. I can remember boys being red-shirted when I was growing up long before the huge testing boom. We had all day kindergarten when I was in kindy back in 1983 so that's not a new thing either. I had actually never heard of a half day kindergarten until I lived in Colorado. Our kindergarten was more like a preschool program, though, and very relaxed. We watched Sesame Street every morning, had two 30 minute long recesses during the day, had nap time, and snack time. We learned colors, shapes, letters, counting to 100, and at the very end of the year we started learning to read CVC words.

[Farrar]

I was thinking about this some more, and now I see the discussion has shifted slightly. When I speak of privilege, I am speaking of the kind of homes where children are perceived as better off for having more time at home. I realized overnight that my perspective is different. My parents were both very poor growing up. The Depression did not end for their families! None of the children in their large families stayed home a minute longer than necessary. My grandmother pushed her kids out of the nest for their sakes (she told one of my uncles he needed to get away or he wouldn't amount to a hill of beans).

 

My parents were able to provide more for me, but only because they sacrificed a lot and chose not to have more children. There was still that sense of "When you grow up you'll be able to do better for yourself, so hurry and get there." So that mindset has stuck with me, even though my SES now falls into the more privileged category.

 

To address the last few posts, I don't think red-shirting should actually be forbidden (snarky Empress comment aside). I do think that K and 1st classes should stay structured for the proper age, not adjusted upward to accommodate the older kids. Parents who are considering red shirting should understand that they are sending their 6 1/2-year-old into a program that is designed for 5-year-olds.

 

I think the privilege issues you're talking about are tied to socioeconomic class.  More time at home is a privilege tied to money.  Not directly because families can choose to make other sacrifices, of course, but it's an element.

 

As for the program designed for 5 yos, I agree with Soror that many of these programs can no longer be said to be designed for 5 yos.  Everything developmental experts tells us about young children is tied to play.  And kindergarten often has almost no play anymore.  I think even when teachers intend for the program to be designed for the younger age group, having older kids there skews a teacher's view of the class and shifts the averages up in a way that stacks the deck against many of the younger kids.  And, to extend that, may stack the deck against the kids of lesser means more distinctly.

[Sherry in OH]

We are privileged in that we are able to set priorities beyond the basics of food, clothing, and shelter.  For families struggling to provide those, early school admission may the best they can offer their children.   School provides a relatively safe, warm, dry location.  The children will get one and possibly two meals.  Some area schools send backpacks of food home with children to ensure that they have something to eat on the weekends.  The schools ensure that the children have winter coats and sometimes other clothing.  Academic excellence is the least of these families’ worries.

 

I know these families exist, however, I do not personally know any of them.  What I see are families having different priorities.  These priorities are reflected in the ways they spend their time and money and in how and when their children are educated. 

[musicianmom]

K in its current form was not designed for my son at 5 though and for a lot of other people as well, thus why we have chosen the option to redshirt.

Yes, that's a problem with the current form. We have essentially added a year to the basic required education, without anything to show for it at the end. Are high school graduates better prepared now that we're pushing kindergarteners so hard?

 

I don't really think of it as redshirting when a child truly isn't ready, though. Redshirting is when people hold back a child who's ready, simply because their birthday is close to the cutoff, or because they're trying to give the child a competitive edge.

[TraceyS/FL]

OK... here is what K was like for me back in 1973, in CA. I turned 5 in late November.

She wrote almost as much on the back too - can you imagine having to do that today? Interestingly enough, she had me pegged at that age. I am pretty selective about my friends and prefer close friends over a crowd :D

 

[Mom0012]

It's a privilege to homeschool but it is not necessarily a sign of financial privilege. At least in the short term, homeschooling is costing us more than 1/2 our previous income, leaving us living off a pretty low amount, especially in a HCOL area. For us this is temporary as my husband is working on yet another degree which will more than double his earnings but from meeting other homeschooling families and reading this board, I see that a fair number of homeschoolers are living on modest amounts long term, especially when you consider the large size of many homeschooling families.

 

Yes, I realize that.  We are living on one salary in a HCOL area as well.  I'm sure most people on this board are living on one salary and making financial sacrifices to educate their children at home. My point was directed to the people who want to do away with red shirting because it only benefits the privileged, while they take advantage of their own privilege and homeschool their children.

[LucyStoner]

I don't think redshirting is something that anyone CAN do away with (leaving aside the question of if it even should be done away with). Parents can, and will, opt to do what they see as best for their families, be that as soon as possible entrance or waiting. It's none of my business why other families choose that. If public schools required earlier starts, more families would shift to the private school system. Most of the non-religious private schools around here have cutoffs that mean a child will be 6 for part or all of K. The only one I can think of that does not is limited to kids with very high IQ scores.

[Erin]

Ya know, it wasn't until I came to this board that I realized the term "redshirt" had a use OTHER than football.  lol

 

And of course Blackshirt means only one thing:

 

 

 

 

 

In my area, it's probably a 50/50 split if a summer birthday will start school in the fall.  Definitely more often the boys will redshirt than the girls.  

[Farrar]

OK... here is what K was like for me back in 1973, in CA. I turned 5 in late November.

 

She wrote almost as much on the back too - can you imagine having to do that today? Interestingly enough, she had me pegged at that age. I am pretty selective about my friends and prefer close friends over a crowd :D

 

 

I worked at a middle school without letter grades.  Our "report cards" totally had that much writing.  Not by hand though!  And, of course, for that age, it wasn't all manners and enjoying stories.  

 

That's what my K report card looked like too, more or less.  I do think that there are positive aspects to introducing more academics earlier if it's done the right way.  I think most K'ers can absolutely learn some basic math and reading.  I just feel we've swung too far.

[TraceyS/FL]

I worked at a middle school without letter grades.  Our "report cards" totally had that much writing.  Not by hand though!  And, of course, for that age, it wasn't all manners and enjoying stories.  

 

That's what my K report card looked like too, more or less.  I do think that there are positive aspects to introducing more academics earlier if it's done the right way.  I think most K'ers can absolutely learn some basic math and reading.  I just feel we've swung too far.

The by hand part was what was the part that getting to me! Yikes!!!

 

I was already reading apparently... in fact, it must have been in 1st grade that they were worried about me and scheduled me for testing because I wouldn't read. My parents just looked at them like they were nuts, then the psych that did the testing wanted to know why I was there since I could read.

 

I was bored.

 

I just pulled my 1st grade report card out and in reading for the first semester it says, "Tracey is making satisfactory progress but slowly. She is working in book D of the BRL Sullivan reading program. Also she is reading some pre-primers."

 

Oh, and I need, "Ample supervision to get work done."

 

I was bored.

 

Anyway, I totally agree - we have swung to far. I'm honestly looked at like I'm NUTS around here for DD starting late. Sorry, I knew her phonological awareness was delayed (she was in private speech therapy with a tad bit of language). I wish there was more of an ability based division/tract for kids instead of so much of locking them down into a grade. I understand why the PS's can't do that so much - but it would be nice.

 

I'm not pulling my middle school report cards out of this booklet i found :p

[TraceyS/FL]

Oops... but really, *I* didn't double post - the computer did :p

 

[MinivanMom]

I was thinking about this some more, and now I see the discussion has shifted slightly. When I speak of privilege, I am speaking of the kind of homes where children are perceived as better off for having more time at home. I realized overnight that my perspective is different. My parents were both very poor growing up. The Depression did not end for their families! None of the children in their large families stayed home a minute longer than necessary. My grandmother pushed her kids out of the nest for their sakes (she told one of my uncles he needed to get away or he wouldn't amount to a hill of beans).

 

My parents were able to provide more for me, but only because they sacrificed a lot and chose not to have more children. There was still that sense of "When you grow up you'll be able to do better for yourself, so hurry and get there." So that mindset has stuck with me, even though my SES now falls into the more privileged category.

 

To address the last few posts, I don't think red-shirting should actually be forbidden (snarky Empress comment aside). I do think that K and 1st classes should stay structured for the proper age, not adjusted upward to accommodate the older kids. Parents who are considering red shirting should understand that they are sending their 6 1/2-year-old into a program that is designed for 5-year-olds.

 

I grew up very, very poor - homeless, hungry poor.  I was out on my own at 17, and I was on my own in every sense of the word (financially, emotionally).  One of my younger siblings was put out at 16 and the other two were put out right after turning 18.  I look back on that my situation as both formative and positive.  The neglect I experienced when I was younger was hard, but the independence and sense of personal responsibility I experienced as a teenager were a huge blessing.  I have a hard time looking at perfectly intelligent, able-bodied older teens who are still dependent on their parents in so many ways without the words lazy enabled rich kid running through my mind.  Not in a way of personal judgment, but in more of a culture shock kind of way.  I am one of the privileged now, but I still don't quite "get" certain aspects of middle-class culture. 

 

I'm not sure what this means, but your comments really resonated with me.  I am genuinely baffled by the red-shirting trend.  I am genuinely baffled when people say that it never hurt an 18 or 19 yr old to have a little more time at home with their parents guidance.  I'm not going to kick my kids out at 18 or refuse to help them with college tuition, but I do think it would hurt them to still live at home or to be financially dependent on us (beyond tuition) at the ages of 18 or 19.  I've always viewed this as a philosophical or parenting-style difference, but I bet it has a lot more to do with my lower-class background. 

 

This probably doesn't contribute to the overall discussion about redshirting versus the good of society, but very interesting things for me to ponder personally.  I'm feeling very introspective now.  Carry on with your discussion.

[Soror]

I'm not sure what this means, but your comments really resonated with me.  I am genuinely baffled by the red-shirting trend.  I am genuinely baffled when people say that it never hurt an 18 or 19 yr old to have a little more time at home with their parents guidance.  I'm not going to kick my kids out at 18 or refuse to help them with college tuition, but I do think it would hurt them to still live at home or to be financially dependent on us (beyond tuition) at the ages of 18 or 19.  I've always viewed this as a philosophical or parenting-style difference, but I bet it has a lot more to do with my lower-class background

I think you are merging 2 different practices together. Just because my son is red-shirted doesn't mean that I don't expect age appropriate independence and responsibility from him. FWIW compared to his friends of similar age our expectations are generally more than anyone else that we know. He just wasn't developmentally ready for school at just turned 5. I tried to do regular k work with him, you cannot make someone learn when they are not ready.

 

I actually came from a similar belief about helping children. My beliefs have changed a bit though as I have had more experience with people from various backgrounds, irl and online. My dh was helped significantly more and seeing how his parents help was really detrimental to his sister in that it fostered a lack of self-responsibility soured him towards the idea. However, I think one can give their child the advantage of their help and also steer them towards independence and self-sufficiency. At this point I do expect that we will offer our children the choice to stay at home while attending our local cc. I don't know what if any financial assistance we will provide. Thankfully we have several years to try and determine what will be best for our family. I don't think there is just one right answer.

[SKL]

I agree with those above who say the "gift of time" is not necessarily a gift for every kid.  I think parents should feel free to send their kids when the kids are ready for classroom work, whether that's age 4 or 6.  Unfortunately in my experience, schools are not always flexible enough to accommodate age-appropriate behavior from that broad of a spectrum.

 

The ADHD thing hit my radar too.  If your kid is young in the class, she's statistically more likely to be labeled ADHD.  I found this out as I was trying to get a referral for my dd for an auditory processing evaluation.  As soon as they learned she was young for grade, they labeled her case as ADHD.  This was before they did any evaluation at all.  Also, the school did an in-class observation where they compared her behavior to another student.  Problem is that every other student is way older than she is, thanks in part to redshirting.  Thankfully they can't officially label her without my cooperation, but it's scary to see how the thought process works.

 

As for the "privilege" (I prefer economic disparity) thing, to me it determines, to a point, who is going to be retained instead of redshirted.  Unfortunately retention is a pretty negative experience for most kids.  I understand that more and more public schools are offering an alternative such as "young fives" or "transitional K-1" to address this issue.

[ZooRho]

no idea how common it is.

We had a July birthday boy.  since we were hsing it didn't really matter, or so I thought. We started him on K but I was willing to hold him back if he needed it.

he is now 18 and a senior in high school.  we ended up holding him back his sophomore year.  he had 2 bouts of pancreatitis and some sports injuries.  it has made a world of difference in his life.  

I wished I'd done it sooner now.  I think back to where I knew he was struggling in some areas, but just barely, but what difference would it have made if I had thought him a grade behind where he was all those years.

And honestly it was a just barely thing.