Catholics and NFP--really struggling

[SKL]

Moral issues aside (on the HIV front), are married people not *known* to have AIDS really going to use condoms in husband-wife relations 100% of the time? I could see the push for use of condoms with prostitutes in order to avoid catching AIDS in the first place, and for people who know they have AIDS/HIV to avoid knowingly spreading the virus to others. But it seems neither of those has anything to do with the Catholic doctrine being discussed here. I would hope that the Catholic church allows a barrier to be used if one of the spouses has AIDS/HIV. Similar to the use of birth control pills to address hormonal problem, i.e., the purpose is to promote/protect health, not to contracept. In short, I really don't see the connection between NFP and AIDS.

[Aelwydd]

SKL, if you do a brief amout of research into the HIV/ condom issue, you will quickly find a tremendous amount of information about the RCC's opposition to condoning the use of barrier bc. Yes, even when one spouse is known to be infected.

[Aelwydd]

ETA - again, those countries which have embraced public education, testing, and the use of condoms have significantly reduced the rate of transmission. Those countries where the above approach has been resisted or slow to catch on are experiencing an epidemic nightmare. Swaiziland is a horrific example.

[gardenmom5]

ETA - again, those countries which have embraced public education, testing, and the use of condoms have significantly reduced the rate of transmission. Those countries where the above approach has been resisted or slow to catch on are experiencing an epidemic nightmare. Swaiziland is a horrific example.

isn't that the country where the polygamist king has a thing for teenage virgin brides? it starts at the top. (he's a big part of their problem.) I just read a story where a young woman fled to another country and is seeking asylum to get away from him.

[Aelwydd]

Yes, that's the one.

[Melissa in Australia]

I am not Catholic. From my reading of the Bible I was under the impression that it is a sin to abstain from marital relations. I also would have thought that NFP could lead to excessive frustration in a marriage that might end up in the male seeking relief from others, and be more detrimental to a marriage than using a barrier.

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[stripe]

Because of the patriarchy of the cultures involved, many of these wives have no choice but to engage in sex with their husbands. They are expected to produce children.

...

Oh, and good luck teaching abstinence to their husbands. Again, in both Africa and India (which is where the next big hit is coming), men tend to look upon sex as a conjugal right

I want to preface this by saying I think your post is very informative and tend to agree with what you've said about the realities of HIV, but the suggestion that African or Indian societies are totally different from "ours" is a bit exaggerated.

 

I do not think African or Indian men are unusual for wanting sex, or that African or Indian women have sex because they are forced to; this is rather simplistic or misleading. Most adults are interested in sex, and in virtually all cultures and religions, sexuality is considered normal within marriage. I think most American Christian/Catholic men would also not be happy being celibate for most of their married lives! And I think a fair number of African and Indian women are also having sex because...they want to have sex, and they love their husbands, even if he has another wife or has affairs, which sometimes she knows about and approves of, sometimes knows about and tolerates, sometimes knows about and resents, and sometimes doesn't know anything about. I am just requesting that we not assume all men in other cultures exploit and harm women, and that all women in other cultures are passive victims, which is not quite what you said, but an assumption some people make.

[Katy]

 

In most cases breastfeeding is not enough to block the fertility unless the child is still 100% or close dependent on nursing. Once weaning begins- and adding solids is a form of weaning- most otherwise fertile women will resume their cycles and regain fertility. So at best, breast feeding is 6-12 months of not bulletproof birthcontrol as even breastfed tots are usually needing to eat quite a few solids by their 1st birthday.

 

 

I was under the impression that if you continue to pump every 2-3 hours as if you were in the initial 6 months of demand feeding, the benefit continues. I know that doesn't work for every woman though. The sleep interruption alone wouldn't be worth it for me personally. But if the option is nursing or feeling guilty or avoiding relations? I guess I'd be setting the alarm.

[Moxie]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies. It helps to know I'm not alone. I have asked that this thread be deleted. It has really jumped the shark.

[FaithManor]

 

But, artificial birth control and/or barrier methods have always been condemned, they were condemned by Protestants as well until 1930.

 

 

 

I would like to address this as someone raised protestant and who has studied this extensively from protestant history.

 

The protestant church has been more silent than vocal on this issue and left much up to the couple - "between you and God". This goes much farther back than 1930. I am not certain where the concept that ALL protestant churches preached against or had an official doctrine against all forms of birth control began because it isn't historically accurate. A few rather loud, somewhat famous evangelists, yes. Church doctrine? No. It was more likely to be talked about within liturgical traditions more closely related to Catholicism such as Anglicanism. However, if you go through the history of say Methodism, Wesleyanism, etc. you will not find a church dogma that the masses must follow and sometimes you are hard pressed to find an opinion from even the most ardent of theologians. Most statements concerning birth control do occur after 1930 because it became so much more readily available and protestants asked specifically about it. This does not mean that the denomination changed its stance, just that it finally iterated a stance since people were asking due to the advent of new types of b/c. So, it's a misnomer to say that all or most protestant churches took a doctrinal stance against all forms of b/c and then caved to the world after 1930. This is simply not true. Most had no problems with barrier methods prior to that.

 

OP, I am going to relate something to you that might help. DD recently had a cantelope size chocolate cyst removed from her ovary. She also has some endometriosis lesions. Those were removed as well. Her surgeon, an absolutely wonderful, RC OBGYN, is putting her on hormone therapy in order to save her fertility. Her medical opinion is that too many women, due to church doctrine, will not seek assistance for irregular periods, pain at ovulation, etc. The problem with this is that failure to treat tends to cause serious health problems down the road. It means that thyroid, or pituitary problems, or ovaries that over produce estrogen, or ..... you name it is going on and that's not healthy. Endomestriosis, PCOS, and all kinds of health problems occur from the hormone imbalance and end in unnecessary hysterectomies, ovarectomies, bladders and other internal organs damaged by lesions and tumors, etc. That's not God honoring either. He wants women to get help for their health. He wants them to be able to be well able to take care of the children He has already given them and women were meant to cycle regularly, women were meant to be able to track their fertility, women were meant to not have "that time of the month" be pure torture. Getting hormones regulated is a MUCH needed health issue.

 

DD and hubby, though not Catholic, do have concerns about the abortificient nature of some hormone therapies. She'll be on b/c pills and thyroid meds having her hormone levels checked very regularly. In order to stop the endometriosis cycle and prevent another cyst from developing, dd will not be allowed to even have a period for two years. So, her doctor has prescribed a healthy window of abstinence for them so their hearts will not be heavy at the thought that maybe, just maybe, they conceived and then miscarried the embryo. They will be abstaining from day 8 - 17 in the cycle. Bloodwork will let the doc know if any break through ovulation is taking place. This is vital or dd will end up infertile. She is sooooooo fortunate that the ovary was still healthy and they got that thing out before it damaged any other organs. She's also very blessed that the endo lesions were removed. She must have a long break in the estrogen cycle to remain healthy.

 

DD also seemed to have acquired some emotional ups and downs, outside of "normal" for her in the past few months and the doctor said it was related to the huge hormonal imbalance. It is absolutely amazing to me how she practically became a new person overnight when that cyst was removed and she began hormone therapy. So, your current outlook on your faith may have a LOT to do with your own hormone imbalances. Just because you choose treatment in order to regulate your hormones, that doesn't mean you have to be in danger of a mortal sin...you can still abstain within the window in the cycle that would normally be a fertile time and you can have the peace of mind that you aren't going to create an embryo that will then be miscarried.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Faith

[stripe]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies. It helps to know I'm not alone. I have asked that this thread be deleted. It has really jumped the shark.

 

I wish it wouldn't be deleted; there are some thoughtful and informative posts in it.

[Moxie]

For those of you who agree with the Church on this issue, as of this morning, I've had 4 people contact me via PM to say that they left the Church over this issue because they were headed for divorce. This is clearly a problem!! What can be done? The horse is out of the barn. There is NO going back and convincing the 95% of contraceptive Catholics that it is wrong.

[Wheres Toto]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I am not Catholic but my mother is, her whole family is (I have over 50 cousins/second cousins), my ex husband is, and my oldest was raised Catholic (including 3 years in Catholic school, baptized, First Communion, etc.), and I looked into converting when I was married to her father (I am United Methodist, although with slight agnostic leanings). I know many, many, many people who firmly consider themselves Catholic but do not follow this restriction. Some have been advised by their parish priests that it is best in their situation to use some form of bc. Sometimes that was for physical/medical reasons, sometimes it was for financial reasons, sometimes for mental health reasons. These people have not left the church and their priest and they still consider themselves Catholic, but they are not following the official teaching on this position.

 

I agree with those saying you should pray, together with your husband, for what is right for you - as a couple, as a family, as a woman.

 

FWIW - I did not convert partially because of this issue. While I know many "born and raised" Catholics that do not believe everything the Church teaches, it did not seem right to convert knowing I would never believe or follow certain teachings.

[Trish]

For those of you who agree with the Church on this issue, as of this morning, I've had 4 people contact me via PM to say that they left the Church over this issue because they were headed for divorce. This is clearly a problem!! What can be done? The horse is out of the barn. There is NO going back and convincing the 95% of contraceptive Catholics that it is wrong.

 

The percentage of Catholics having sex outside of marriage (usually prior to marriage) is quite high also. Are you suggesting the Church change its teaching to conform to what the horses want?

[UrbanSue]

It is no secret that the Church has had a colossal failure of catechesis for most of the last fifty years. There has been a lot of confusion, a lot of misinformation, a lot of poorly done education. This is a huge, huge problem.

 

And it is no less a huge problem that this teaching (about artificial birth control) is as set in stone as it gets and, perhaps, THE most difficult thing for married Catholics trying to live their faith. And what support do we get for it? Almost none. Most priests either disagree with the teaching themselves, feel they lack the moral authority to teach it because they are celibate (I don't agree there but let's not get a third debate going in this thread), or are just plain cowards and assume no one will listen anyway. Those of who believe that trying to follow this teaching is a necessary component of living as a Catholic are pretty much left hung out to dry.

 

The double-edged sword of lack of catechesis/lack of support is obviously not the worst scandal in the modern church. But it's pretty high on the list. It should be totally unacceptable for a mortal sin (which, yes, it is but that doesn't mean that anyone can assume anyone else is "damned to hell". NOT AT ALL what I"m saying. Mortal sin is a category not a personal judgment.) to be treated this way.

 

Moxie, my heart hurts for you. And for all Catholics who have left the Church over this, or are in and struggling. I don't know what to do. My dh is a theologian and this is his area of expertise and we were just shaking our heads last night.

[merry gardens]

For those of you who agree with the Church on this issue, as of this morning, I've had 4 people contact me via PM to say that they left the Church over this issue because they were headed for divorce. This is clearly a problem!! What can be done? The horse is out of the barn. There is NO going back and convincing the 95% of contraceptive Catholics that it is wrong.

 

First, the number 95% was gathered from Catholics who ever used contraception, including people (like me) who did once and now embrace the Church teachings. And yes, people (like me) who used contraception can become convinced that contraception is wrong. And people (again like me) who leave the Church can also change their minds and return. It takes education and prayer and fasting and a great deal of charity. (And I strongly suspect that when I was away from the Church, my good Catholic mom "offer up" a lot of her pain and suffering for me --and united her sacrifice to Christ's suffering and His perfect sacrifice on the Cross.) Since I did it, I am not surprised when I hear people leave the Church. No one should be. Disciples of Jesus left Him when He walked the earth over a different issue that distinguishes Catholics from many of our Protestant brethren. John 6:60; 66-68 "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it? ...After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, Will you also go away?" Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life...."

[momma2three]

I don't really have any advice, Moxie, because I don't think that there actually is any advice that will "fix" this situation. Neither of the two options are appealing to you, and that's okay. But I just want to say that I can hear the stress and exhaustion in your tone. I hope that you can find some peace over this issue.

 

I do think that the rules encouraging as many children as possible were created in an age when it was acceptable for children to receive far fewer resources than they do now. Children were expected to amuse themselves all day without any supervision (leaving mom to spend all day cooking and cleaning), clothes were better made and easier to hand down (and unisex until the kids were 6), most were never going to go to college, there were no cars let along carseats, there was no research for parents to worry about playing with kids or reading to them or talking to them, and there wasn't really much of a concept of treating kids as individuals. I know that God is supposed to be timeless, but the world isn't, and it seems like something has to give for normal mortals to find an acceptable balance. I genuinely hope that you find a balance that you can be happy and healthy with.

[goldberry]

The percentage of Catholics having sex outside of marriage (usually prior to marriage) is quite high also. Are you suggesting the Church change its teaching to conform to what the horses want?

 

 

Certain sins such as fornication and adultery are very clear cut. The issue of birth control is not. In my opinion, when an issue is not clear cut and there are scriptural and logically reasonable arguments for both sides, it should be left up to an individual's conscience.

[momma2three]

First, the number 95% was gathered from Catholics who ever used contraception, including people (like me) who did once and now embrace the Church teachings. And yes, people (like me) who used contraception can become convinced that contraception is wrong. And people (again like me) who leave the Church can also change their minds and return. It takes education and prayer and fasting and a great deal of charity. (And I strongly suspect that when I was away from the Church, my good Catholic mom "offer up" a lot of her pain and suffering for me --and united her sacrifice to Christ's suffering and His perfect sacrifice on the Cross.) Since I did it, I am not surprised when I hear people leave the Church. No one should be. Disciples of Jesus left Him when He walked the earth over a different issue that distinguishes Catholics from many of our Protestant brethren. John 6:60; 66-68 "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it? ...After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, Will you also go away?" Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life...."

 

 

The actual stats seem to be that 98% of Catholic women have ever used a form of birth control, even once. The same survey showed that 11% are not currently using it. This was a survey of sexually active women of child-bearing age.

 

All I know is that I live in the most Catholic area of the country, and I don't know a single family with more than 3 kids.

[butterflymommy]

For those of you who agree with the Church on this issue, as of this morning, I've had 4 people contact me via PM to say that they left the Church over this issue because they were headed for divorce. This is clearly a problem!! What can be done? The horse is out of the barn. There is NO going back and convincing the 95% of contraceptive Catholics that it is wrong.

 

 

I'm curious, when couples head toward divorce on this issue, is there a pattern of why? Does the husband want to use BC or does the woman? Or is it something else entirely?

 

I've only read about half the thread (part of the beginning, and part going backwards) so if this was addressed sorry.

[Aelwydd]

 

I want to preface this by saying I think your post is very informative and tend to agree with what you've said about the realities of HIV, but the suggestion that African or Indian societies are totally different from "ours" is a bit exaggerated.

 

I do not think African or Indian men are unusual for wanting sex, or that African or Indian women have sex because they are forced to; this is rather simplistic or misleading. Most adults are interested in sex, and in virtually all cultures and religions, sexuality is considered normal within marriage. I think most American Christian/Catholic men would also not be happy being celibate for most of their married lives! And I think a fair number of African and Indian women are also having sex because...they want to have sex, and they love their husbands, even if he has another wife or has affairs, which sometimes she knows about and approves of, sometimes knows about and tolerates, sometimes knows about and resents, and sometimes doesn't know anything about. I am just requesting that we not assume all men in other cultures exploit and harm women, and that all women in other cultures are passive victims, which is not quite what you said, but an assumption some people make.

 

That's true, stripe and I agree. I do think that women in these countries tend to have fewer options due to economical, political, and social differences. They are generally more vulnerable than women in both eastern and western post industrial countries where women tend to have more education and options should they get left by their spouses.

[UrbanSue]

I don't really have any advice, Moxie, because I don't think that there actually is any advice that will "fix" this situation. Neither of the two options are appealing to you, and that's okay. But I just want to say that I can hear the stress and exhaustion in your tone. I hope that you can find some peace over this issue.

 

I do think that the rules encouraging as many children as possible were created in an age when it was acceptable for children to receive far fewer resources than they do now. Children were expected to amuse themselves all day without any supervision (leaving mom to spend all day cooking and cleaning), clothes were better made and easier to hand down (and unisex until the kids were 6), most were never going to go to college, there were no cars let along carseats, there was no research for parents to worry about playing with kids or reading to them or talking to them, and there wasn't really much of a concept of treating kids as individuals. I know that God is supposed to be timeless, but the world isn't, and it seems like something has to give for normal mortals to find an acceptable balance. I genuinely hope that you find a balance that you can be happy and healthy with.

 

 

 

Just to clarify, there is definitely no rule about "as many children as possible." This, in fact, is explicitly condemned. Catholics are required to be generous, yes, but also prudent. We have a duty to care for the children we already have. For some families, this is best achieved by giving them more siblings and, for others, by conserving resources (be they financial, emotional, medical, whatever).

 

But I certainly agree that for various complex reasons, it is much harder to raise a large family these days.

[Soror]

It is no secret that the Church has had a colossal failure of catechesis for most of the last fifty years. There has been a lot of confusion, a lot of misinformation, a lot of poorly done education. This is a huge, huge problem.

 

And it is no less a huge problem that this teaching (about artificial birth control) is as set in stone as it gets and, perhaps, THE most difficult thing for married Catholics trying to live their faith. And what support do we get for it? Almost none. Most priests either disagree with the teaching themselves, feel they lack the moral authority to teach it because they are celibate (I don't agree there but let's not get a third debate going in this thread), or are just plain cowards and assume no one will listen anyway. Those of who believe that trying to follow this teaching is a necessary component of living as a Catholic are pretty much left hung out to dry.

 

The double-edged sword of lack of catechesis/lack of support is obviously not the worst scandal in the modern church. But it's pretty high on the list. It should be totally unacceptable for a mortal sin (which, yes, it is but that doesn't mean that anyone can assume anyone else is "damned to hell". NOT AT ALL what I"m saying. Mortal sin is a category not a personal judgment.) to be treated this way.

 

Moxie, my heart hurts for you. And for all Catholics who have left the Church over this, or are in and struggling. I don't know what to do. My dh is a theologian and this is his area of expertise and we were just shaking our heads last night.

 

Yes, that is the rub the lack of support and compassion for this area is pretty much non-existent. IRL I cannot find anyone who follows the teaching, online those who do follow it are only supportive in pushing more kids. There is pretty much no support for those who feel the need to space or use NFP to avoid for any reason.

[teachermom2834]

Just want to repeat that using NFP does not equal having 12 kids. Now, some people will say that their cycles are such that that is the result for them. I have 4 children (no surprises and always got pg right away) and have been using NFP for a long time. Anyone who assumes I am a birth control using Catholic because I only have 4 children would be wrong. I also know NFP practicing Catholic families with 2 or 3 children. You cannot assume that all the Catholic families you see with less than 5 children are ignoring Church teaching. I am very fertile and have no trouble getting pregnant or having babies. I am Catholic, follow Church teaching, and only have 4 kids. I don't think we will ever have more than 4 kids (though of course we are open and that might happen).

 

If I were very, very scared of getting pregnant I would not be relaxed and focused on my partner just because I was using a barrier. The failure rate for condoms is too high for my comfort level if I really feared pregnancy. If a pregnancy would truly be a huge problem for me I would not be better off using a barrier and turning away from a Church teaching I have held for a long time. Abstinence might not be a great answer in that case but for me it would be better than the alternative.

[Moxie]

 

Yes, that is the rub the lack of support and compassion for this area is pretty much non-existent. IRL I cannot find anyone who follows the teaching, online those who do follow it are only supportive in pushing more kids. There is pretty much no support for those who feel the need to space or use NFP to avoid for any reason.

It goes beyond "lack of support" into open scorn and mocking. In my own parish, I'm viewed as a bit of a freak or some kind of Stepford wife because I have 5 children.

[Aelwydd]

Is another, more suppotive parish an option?

[teachermom2834]

It goes beyond "lack of support" into open scorn and mocking. In my own parish, I'm viewed as a bit of a freak or some kind of Stepford wife because I have 5 children.

 

I know this is a problem is some areas and parishes. It should follow that Catholic churches provide care and support for families. Too often Catholic parishes drop the ball on providing nursery/childcare arrangements, etc. The support isn't there and I have seen the disdain for large families. It is a problem.

[I.Dup.]

It goes beyond "lack of support" into open scorn and mocking. In my own parish, I'm viewed as a bit of a freak or some kind of Stepford wife because I have 5 children.

 

Maybe you need to go to another parish, then. I have had nothing like this experience, and I am pregnant with #7 (I assure you, we look pretty freakish out in public just with the sheer number of small children we have). Just about every week we have older people coming up and telling us wistfully that they grew up in a large family, how lovely it is to see a large family these days, etc.

 

Of the 3 Catholic families I know intimately enough to know their birth control habits, all 3 of them only use NFP. One has 6, one has 4, and one has 3. The one with 6 said that every, single one of her kids was planned for using NFP. They have much more prudence in the area than we do, but it still is possible. Agreeing with the above poster that just because a family doesn't have many children, does not mean they are on birth control.

 

I do feel for you in your situation. I would not be happy with 2x/month either. I really think you need to just wrestle through this and come to a place of peace, somehow. You also aren't guaranteed more children.

 

As to the above poster who said "why let this issue torment us"-- it's called a conscience, lol. Some of us don't have a choice what torments us and what doesn't. I sometimes wish I was one of those people who could have a longer leash, but these things DO bother me, greatly. I could not be just peachy keen on birth control, because I do believe it is wrong.

 

Again, this is something we each have to wrestle with and come to terms with. Our choices are our own to make.

[UrbanSue]

We are the only family (large or small) that regularly attends our parish and we are, so far, well-loved (I'm expecting #5). IRL, we know dozens, and dozens of families who have 3 or more children and use NFP only. They do exist (most of these friends aren't local, remember, no families at our parish). People tend to self-sort into subcultures so it is no surprise that, since most Catholics contracept, most contracepting Catholics don't know anyone who doesn't. And vice-versa.

 

Moxie, I don't know where you live but is there any hope of hunting for a different parish community or support group of some kind? It won't make anything perfect but having IRL friends sharing your struggle will surely help a bit. And, perhaps, get you some practical support? It is true, and extremely unfortunate, that many faithful Catholic communities can get into a child-bearing competition where holiness=number of children. This is horrible. But there are plenty of nice, faithful Catholics out there and they tend to congregate.

[Lisa R.]

It goes beyond "lack of support" into open scorn and mocking. In my own parish, I'm viewed as a bit of a freak or some kind of Stepford wife because I have 5 children.

 

 

Open scorn and mocking? Because you have five children? This isn't a good Catholic or bad Catholic issue. Those people have a character issue.

[DianeW88]

I'm so sorry for your heartache, Moxie.

 

I agree with other posters who've said you are between a rock and a hard place. Your church's teaching will not allow you to use any form of birth control other than NFP, or else you are committing a sin. NFP does not work for you (as it does not for many other women), so your alternative is physical and mental exhaustion, a dissatisfying s*x life, and stress over having more children than you feel is prudent for your family.

 

I think you need to take some time to pray about what the Lord wants for you and what you feel will bring you peace.

 

It is my personal opinion that happy, healthy mothers who can serve and care for their children from a place of mental stability, energy and peace is what the Lord desires for women. I feel that an obligation to living children is far more important than anything else, and it is your duty to do everything possible to ensure that happens. Your children are a gift from the Lord and the obligation to take care of them and be healthy and happy while doing so is paramount. I also feel that the marriage relationship is sacred and that s*x is a good and healthy thing that strengthens that bond between husband and wife. Excessive abstinence is not healthy and I don't thing it is something the Lord approves of in a marital relationship.

 

I left the Catholic church for other reasons when I was 19, but if I hadn't...I'm pretty sure this issue as a married woman would have done it for me.

 

I truly hope you find the answers you need to work out your problems and have peace in your life. Best wishes to you.

[Haiku]

 

women were meant to be able to track their fertility

 

 

If this were the case, why is NFP so hard? What were women supposed to do before thermometers and the understanding of changes in their cervical mucous and alarm clocks so they can chart at the same time every day?

 

Tara

[gardenmom5]

I do think that the rules encouraging as many children as possible were created in an age when it was acceptable for children to receive far fewer resources than they do now. Children were expected to amuse themselves all day without any supervision (leaving mom to spend all day cooking and cleaning), clothes were better made and easier to hand down (and unisex until the kids were 6), most were never going to go to college, there were no cars let along carseats, there was no research for parents to worry about playing with kids or reading to them or talking to them, and there wasn't really much of a concept of treating kids as individuals.

 

I do genealogy, so I've done lots of examination of different family groups, in several areas of the country, during the 1800's and early 1900's. that was an age with higher child mortality. (vaccines lowered that starting in the 50's.) It was unusual to find a family that hadn't lost at least one child. (records on pregnancy loss are non-existant.) My fil came from an educated and affluent family - but 100years ago they still lost three infants out of seven to early death.

 

at lot of people lived on farms (they tended to be the group with the largest families.), boys with strong backs were needed to help work the farm. women died in childbirth.

 

there were many factors then, that we do not deal with today.

 

I belong to a conservative faith, with a vague teaching of "no selfish birthcontrol". it's up to the couple to seek guidance from the Lord in prayer as to what is right for them. seeking medical guidance from her Dr if needed.

[Violet Crown]

Nm, tmi

[Murphy101]

For those of you who agree with the Church on this issue, as of this morning, I've had 4 people contact me via PM to say that they left the Church over this issue because they were headed for divorce. This is clearly a problem!! What can be done? The horse is out of the barn. There is NO going back and convincing the 95% of contraceptive Catholics that it is wrong.

 

Yes. People who profess to believe a religion on Sunday, then turn around and do what they want anyways even when they know it is against that religions teachings is a problem in every church in the world I suspect what with sin being a big problem for 100% of humans. Yet that does not make sin okay. We don't say, "oh well everyone sins, so we need to just stop teaching to avoid it."

 

Again, who are you trying to convince here? Not me. Not those who agree with you. It's obvious that you are mad that the church doesn't okay the birth control you want to use, bc the option to avoid that is okayed is just too hard. Well I can have empathy for that, but how hard something is doesn't change whether it's the right thing to do or not. And building angst over it just makes it harder than it already is.

 

There are a lot of things I could choose because they are easier and I don't because making it easier isn't the priority.

 

I guess you need to talk to your husband about what priorities you both want to have and make your decisions reflect those priorities. I hope you can find peace with church teachings, but you've got free will. The RCC isn't making you make babies and the RCC isn't going to change doctrinal teachings to suit whatever is popular in the populace.

[Moxie]

Yes. People who profess to believe a religion on Sunday, then turn around and do what they want anyways even when they know it is against that religions teachings is a problem in every church in the world I suspect what with sin being a big problem for 100% of humans. Yet that does not make sin okay. We don't say, "oh well everyone sins, so we need to just stop teaching to avoid it."

 

Again, who are you trying to convince here? Not me. Not those who agree with you. It's obvious that you are mad that the church doesn't okay the birth control you want to use, bc the option to avoid that is okayed is just too hard. Well I can have empathy for that, but how hard something is doesn't change whether it's the right thing to do or not. And building angst over it just makes it harder than it already is.

 

There are a lot of things I could choose because they are easier and I don't because making it easier isn't the priority.

 

I guess you need to talk to your husband about what priorities you both want to have and make your decisions reflect those priorities. I hope you can find peace with church teachings, but you've got free will. The RCC isn't making you make babies and the RCC isn't going to change doctrinal teachings to suit whatever is popular in the populace.

 

Martha, these people are leaving the Church! I really doubt that they are doing that flippantly or because they want to have sex like rabbits. If you could read the PM's I've gotten, you would soften your tone.

[Joker]

I feel for you, OP. We're in the process of converting to Catholicism, but dh had a vasectomy 8 years ago so it's not something we have to worry about. I'm not sure we would be converting if it was something we would have to deal with, either.

[*Michelle*]

The Church will not change to keep people from leaving. Did Christ take back His words when many of His disciples said His teachings were too hard?

[*Michelle*]

Duplicate

[butterflymommy]

I know this is a problem is some areas and parishes. It should follow that Catholic churches provide care and support for families. Too often Catholic parishes drop the ball on providing nursery/childcare arrangements, etc. The support isn't there and I have seen the disdain for large families. It is a problem.

 

 

The Catholic schools in my area would be totally unaffordable to anyone with more than 2 or 3 children. In fact they would probably be unaffordable to many people with only 1 or 2.

 

I've often wondered why, if the Church only wants couples to use NFP and in theory have large families, or at least be open to larger families, why they don't make an affordable Catholic education more available.

 

I know people who attended catholic schools in the 1950s-1970s and they came from poor or working class backgrounds but they and all their siblings and friends attended catholic schools. it's a shame that option has disappeared over time.

[InterestingCase]

I was under the impression that if you continue to pump every 2-3 hours as if you were in the initial 6 months of demand feeding, the benefit continues. I know that doesn't work for every woman though. The sleep interruption alone wouldn't be worth it for me personally. But if the option is nursing or feeling guilty or avoiding relations? I guess I'd be setting the alarm.

 

 

I became pregnant while regularly breastfeeding and so have other women with whom I have discussed the issue. I was breastfeeding every few hours, day and night.

[Happy2BaMom]

I agree with gardenmom. Child mortality used to be about 50%, with most of those children dying in infancy or toddlerhood. You needed to have 10 kids to have 5 live to adulthood. As unbelievably horrible as that was, relatively few mothers had the challenge of raising 10 children to adulthood (and few families homeschooled.)

 

And I reject the "well, you either do it the Church way or you take the easy way." There are many, many people who are Catholic who are working their tails off to and sacrificing for the children they already have and who do use ABC. To paint them all with a broad-brush of "taking the easy road" is sanctimonious.

 

OP, I have no words of wisdom for you. I left the Catholic church at 19 because I couldn't figure out how teachings like the 'no ABC' had anything to do with the teachings of Jesus, who never spoke about it.

 

I think you have to determine how important it is to you to strictly follow the teachings of the church and go from there.

 

 

 

Note: edited because I made a hot-headed response that wasn't really helpful here. Some of us have a history with the Church that is painful.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Happy2BaMom

[*Michelle*]

 

The Catholic schools in my area would be totally unaffordable to anyone with more than 2 or 3 children. In fact they would probably be unaffordable to many people with only 1 or 2.

 

I've often wondered why, if the Church only wants couples to use NFP and in theory have large families, or at least be open to larger families, why they don't make an affordable Catholic education more available.

 

I know people who attended catholic schools in the 1950s-1970s and they came from poor or working class backgrounds but they and all their siblings and friends attended catholic schools. it's a shame that option has disappeared over time.

 

The option has disappeared as we've lost our religious orders who were dedicated to teaching in the schools. Now teachers who are supporting families must be paid. We're just beginning to see a resurgence in these orders. I hope we get back to what we had someday.

[albeto]

And I reject the "well, you either do it the Church way or you take the easy way." There are many, many people who are Catholic who are working their tails off to and sacrificing for the children they already have and who do use ABC. To paint them all with a broad-brush of "taking the easy road" is completely sanctimonious.

 

This is one of the things that I find most devastating - the encouragement to draw lines between "us" and "them," even within a single religion. It tears apart human communities and hurts genuinely good people. The fact that people's conscience can decrease the amount of empathy for the suffering of "them" is too dangerous to ignore.

 

If the RCC is going to maintain any relevance in the future, it will be forced to change its view of human sexual behavior, just as it did with evolution, and the solar system, and its views of the Jewish "problem."

 

Edited, but noted.

 

Hot dayum. This is quoted for truth.

[albeto]

The Church will not change to keep people from leaving. Did Christ take back His words when many of His disciples said His teachings were too hard?

 

Of course it will. It always has. If it expects to maintain any relevance in society, it will continue to evolve with society or it will fade out the way of the Greek gods. It may not be in our lifetime, but sexual behavior as an expression of human biology will become too well-known to ignore. In the future, people who deny it will be small pockets of hold-outs, like those who believe the earth is 6000 years old, or Jews are blasphemers by nature and a danger to society.

[Haiku]

The Church will not change to keep people from leaving.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative. My husband was raised Catholic, and I find the Catholic church very interesting. My dh and I talk about things having to do with the Church quite a bit because his family is still very Catholic.

 

This is something we have talked about a lot. I have asked my husband what will happen to the church if the majority of people who profess to be Catholic feel that the church is out of step with their lives. His response is that the church will (and has) gain a foothold in poorer countries and cultures and go through the same types of growing pains that it has here in America, and that eventually the influence of the church will decline to nearly insignificant, and then changes will be made so it doesn't disappear completely. These are words from someone who went to Catholic school from K-BA and says he learned a huge amount of church history at his Catholic university. He says that the priests who taught him were pretty straight-up with the fact that a lot of RCC stuff is based on practical historical reasons and not divine revelation and that the priests always said that it was knowing the Church's history and still believing that was the truest test of faith.

 

Of course, my husband is an apostate. :lol:

 

Tara

[Murphy101]

 

Martha, these people are leaving the Church! I really doubt that they are doing that flippantly or because they want to have sex like rabbits. If you could read the PM's I've gotten, you would soften your tone.

 

That IS my softened tone.

 

I wish they could find peace in the church. Obviously that's preferred. I certainly comprehend the genuine hardship and worries involved in not using birth control. I have double the number as you and i make no claims that it has been easy. I dont think it's harsh to focus on main or biggest priorities instead of the temporary struggles to meet those priorities.

 

It certainly doesn't make sense to me to be demanding the religion change to suit you. If you don't believe in it any more then I would think leaving makes more sense then getting angry the RCC doesn't change in accord with your new opinion.

 

People have free will to follow or not.

 

I wish they would follow, but the choice is theirs.:(

[*Michelle*]

Of course it will. It always has. If it expects to maintain any relevance in society, it will continue to evolve with society or it will fade out the way of the Greek gods.

 

Doctrine will not ever change. Ever. Disciplines? Sure. They change all the time. For instance, there will never, ever be female priests. It's not going to happen. However, there is discussion in high circles about permitting women to join the permanent diaconate. Is this the Church changing doctrine? No. Is this a possibility of the Church changing a discipline? Yes.

[albeto]

Doctrine will not ever change. Ever. Disciplines? Sure. They change all the time. For instance, there will never, ever be female priests. It's not going to happen. However, there is discussion in high circles about permitting women to join the permanent diaconate. Is this the Church changing doctrine? No. Is this a possibility of the Church changing a discipline? Yes.

 

 

Is there an official list of doctrine, or are these things decided as needed? If the church has to change something to maintain relevance in society (like they did with regard to Copernicus and Galileo's discoveries conflicting with scripture), they will. They have before, which explains why Catholics today don't maintain a Ptolemic view of the solar system, or believe that marriage with a Jew is "damnable mixing." The RCC no longer teaches that a Catholic having sex with a Jew (or marrying one) is a grave sin which will result in eternal damnation any more than it teaches the sun actually stood still because that's what the Bible says. In time, it's conceivable the RCC will revise its position on artificial birth control as well as we learn more about physiology and human sexual behavior.