Catholics and NFP--really struggling

[I.Dup.]

but you guys seriously need to cut it out with the implication that we're all hedonistic pleasure seekers who want nothing more than to live life with no consequences.

 

We are all projecting onto what other people are saying. Nowhere did I say anyone is a hedonistic pleasure seeker.

 

If anyone is a hedonistic pleasure seeker, it's me. Seriously. Just trying to give another POV.

[unfrumpable.]

What? Who was rude and condescending to her? All of the Catholics I've seen post have said we totally understand her predicament, we are right there with her, we struggle too, but we have also pointed out that it is up to her to reject or accept the Church's teachings on this. She just continues to complain and freak out.

 

 

 

What???

 

I guess caring for her is telling her to do whatever she wants with no guilt whatsoever?

 

 

Who? I'm not going back through the thread to find names. You must be reading the tone and content of the posts differently than I am then.

 

I see rude and condescending, including the post I'm quoting.

[unfrumpable.]

 

Really? I went back and multi-quoted your posts (and that was only your posts in half of the thread) but I'm not going to throw them in your face. I do think you have the attitude that you are a martyr over this and the first to suffer in this way. There have been dozens of helpful, thoughtful replies and you seem to just want to continue to complain about how hard it is for you and how wrong the Church is. That is your choice.

 

 

Moxie is not the one pretending to be a martyr in this thread.

[Catwoman]

I think Moxie would have received a greater variety of ideas and suggestions had she not seemed so incredibly devout.

 

I'm not saying it is a bad thing that she is very dedicated to her religion -- not at all, and I actually admire her for it; it's just that in this particular instance, she seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place and there's almost nothing any of us can suggest that will make her happy. People have posted about how NFP has worked for them, but she doesn't believe it will work for her, and she has provided reasons to support her concerns. People have suggested that she consider birth control anyway or that she and her dh might try to find alternative ways to be intimate with each other, but that's not going to work because she believes in her heart that she will be committing a mortal sin and will end up burning in hell if she does it.

 

I have read this entire thread, and while I know a few people are arguing among themselves about who is and who is not playing nicely, I believe that everyone has been genuine in their responses and that they all had Moxie's best interests at heart. The bigger problem here is that Moxie is very unhappy with things as they are, yet she is unwilling or unable to find a workable solution because she's torn between what she wants to do and what she believes she has to do in order to keep feeling that she is a good Catholic.

 

I feel very sad for her, because her pain and conflicting feelings are so evident, and I wish I knew how to help her. :( By the same token, I can understand the frustration I'm reading in some of the other posts here, because I'm sure many other devout Catholics are doing whatever they can to help her work within the established boundaries set by the church, yet they may feel that she is trying to find a way to bend the rules rather than to find a way to make them work for her, as they have managed to do in their own lives.

[Catwoman]

 

 

 

what??

 

I hope the OP finds peace in her heart and realizes that most Catholic people do not give a fat rats about this archaic nonsense and they sleep just fine at night regardless of their birth control choices.

 

Wow. :eek:

 

The issue here isn't what "most" Catholic people believe; it's about what Moxie believes, and how she can resolve the issue in a way that is satisfactory to her.

 

I don't have the same staunch beliefs that she has, so as I have already stated in this thread, my opinions would be worthless to her, but I would never ridicule her for her beliefs or her choices. That's just mean, and it isn't helpful to her.

 

Like you, I am able to sleep at night with the choices I have made in my life -- and they aren't necessarily the same ones Moxie has made -- but just because you and I view this topic differently that she does, doesn't give us the right to ridicule her for her beliefs.

[gardenmom5]

I get (and agree with) what you're saying, but you guys seriously need to cut it out with the implication that we're all hedonistic pleasure seekers who want nothing more than to live life with no consequences. I (and it sounds like Moxie as well, as well as many other religious posters in this thread) strive with our whole beings to live a goldly life according to the standards He's set forth. I just honestly don't believe this is one of those standards. I have no problem with you disagreeing with that, but the silent accusation that we're all just crybabies looking for approval to live some party lifestyle isn't helping anyone, particularly Moxie. We're looking for truth, not excuses.

wow. way to take something meant to be lighthearted out of context and take offense.

 

there are many difficult things in life, and *everyone* has those that put us between a rock and a hard place! (iow: sometimes I would *like* to 'just sit on the beach') what moxie is dealing with it just one. my posts to moxie have attempted to be supportive in her choice of NFP - even if I don't use that.

 

I happen to believe that laughter is a good and healthy thing. (especially when rocks are pressing down.)

 

r.

[Coco_Clark]

 

 

 

what??

 

I hope the OP finds peace in her heart and realizes that most Catholic people do not give a fat rats about this archaic nonsense and they sleep just fine at night regardless of their birth control choices.

 

 

Have you been following this thread? It should be very evident if you did that many many Catholics do "give a fat rats about this archaic nonsense". Whether its "most" or not I have no way of knowing. It's been clearly stated that Moxie does care, quite a bit, and it's her that I feel for and am speaking to. Personally, I use BC with a clear conscience, but then again I'm not Catholic. Having been Catholic before, though, I can understand her dilemma.

 

Edited to add that I see your latest reply and agree tht yes, of course you can be catholic and take the pill, but that will mean being outside the churches teaching on a matter they take very seriously, which is a decision I think Moxie will find difficult to make (though it may be the right one).

[justamouse]

I think Moxie would have received a greater variety of ideas and suggestions had she not seemed so incredibly devout.

 

I'm not saying it is a bad thing that she is very dedicated to her religion -- not at all, and I actually admire her for it; it's just that in this particular instance, she seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place and there's almost nothing any of us can suggest that will make her happy. People have posted about how NFP has worked for them, but she doesn't believe it will work for her, and she has provided reasons to support her concerns. People have suggested that she consider birth control anyway or that she and her dh might try to find alternative ways to be intimate with each other, but that's not going to work because she believes in her heart that she will be committing a mortal sin and will end up burning in hell if she does it.

 

I have read this entire thread, and while I know a few people are arguing among themselves about who is and who is not playing nicely, I believe that everyone has been genuine in their responses and that they all had Moxie's best interests at heart. The bigger problem here is that Moxie is very unhappy with things as they are, yet she is unwilling or unable to find a workable solution because she's torn between what she wants to do and what she believes she has to do in order to keep feeling that she is a good Catholic.

 

I feel very sad for her, because her pain and conflicting feelings are so evident, and I wish I knew how to help her. :( By the same token, I can understand the frustration I'm reading in some of the other posts here, because I'm sure many other devout Catholics are doing whatever they can to help her work within the established boundaries set by the church, yet they may feel that she is trying to find a way to bend the rules rather than to find a way to make them work for her, as they have managed to do in their own lives.

 

 

Exactly.

 

I need to go to Cat's school of diplomacy. I get to a certain point and I just have NO patience.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Crazy cycles is a sign of PCOS, which is normally tied to magnesium deficiency and diabetes.

 

 

'Crazy cycles' can be a sign of ill-health. They can just be a normal variation, however. I refer you to the research embodied in this Scientific American blog post.

 

Laura

[lil' maids in a row]

Moxie,

 

What does your husband feel about this issue? Does he share the same "torn " feelings that you do? Is he fully committed to continuing with NFP, or is he feeling the need to look at different avenues? Would stepping back and following your husbands leadership on this issue be helpful?

 

Sometimes the weight of responsibility is just too much for me. I feel guilt, anxiety and fear in a way my husband just doesn't. Often these emotions torture my decisions. When I lay things out for my husband, and ask him to make the decision (in this case - continue with NFP, use some form of Bc while remaining Catholic, or perhaps considering another denomination etc.), it relieves me of the mental weight of responsibility and frees up that energy to deal with the situation in front of me.

[Murphy101]

Nm

 

Smh

[Momof3littles]

'Crazy cycles' can be a sign of ill-health. They can just be a normal variation, however. I refer you to the research embodied in this Scientific American blog post.

 

Laura

Yes, if you haven't investigated it fully, I would start there. PCOS for example can be one major cause of long or irregular cycles. I am not Catholic but attended a Jesuit university and had college courses about using NFP. I understand how it would be tough with something like PCOS (which affects 5-10% of women of childbearing age). Soul cysters is a great resource if you want to investigate it further.

 

I have PCOS and couldn't ovulate at all on my own when we first started TTC. I was put on BCP as a teen because I had long and irregular cycles, which was chalked up to the fact I was a long distance runner. When I went off BCP, I didn't ovulate for 9 months, and was diagnosed with PCOS. I take metformin (an insulin sensitizer) and low carb, and my cycles are a little long now (35 days or so) but much more regular than they ever were before, and they are ovulatory. After a lot of medical assistance to conceive my eldest, my second two children were conceived with relative ease.

 

The reason I mention that is some of these issues have health implications beyond fertility. For example, women with PCOS have a higher risk of type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome issues like hypertension, high cholesterol, etc. and endometrial cancer. It isn't something you want to miss if it is there. Not everyone with PCOS is infertile. It is a syndrome, adn therefore the symptoms are very mix and match, if you will. The current diagnostic criteria most docs use are known as the Rotterdam Criteria. PCOS can present in lots of different ways, and believe it or not, not everyone even has cysts. They aren't "required." As a result, a major group of endocrinologists recently declared they'd like to see the name changed as the old one can be very misleading, and many docs still use dated criteria for diagnosis.

[*Michelle*]

I would also suggest investigating the Marquette Method. When your fertility signs are unclear, this method can be very helpful.

[PrairieSong]

IMO the only people who take seriously this teaching are found online. Usually about one family per parish practices NFP in my experience.

 

Naturally online homeschool communities have an unnaturally large component of this type bc hello, we are weirdos. Lol

 

 

IRL at my actual church where I actually go I know very few families who worry about NFP and if this isn't your experience try a different parish.

 

 

The "we are weirdos" line made me laugh. At my small parish, there are quite a few families who use NFP or use nothing. Sometimes the families are big and sometimes not very big at all. I would have no way of knowing the percentages of NFP only couples because I don't go around asking! But of my good friends, most do not use artificial BC.

 

Anyway, just because some families are small does not mean they must use artificial BC. You can't just assume. They might be using NFP or they might have infertility/low fertility.

[Orthodox6]

PraireSong's post just before this one of mine reminded me of a key fact. People (including Christians) frequently do seem to forget that it is God who creates and sends children. All creation, of all types, occurs solely at His will and decision. We are not in charge of this, even when we do not use birth control. I fell into that mental trap early in our marriage; I don't remember what brought me out of it.

[Shellydon]

Honestly, I read this and wish I had been born Protestant.

 

My choices, should I choose to remain Catholic, are

-be happy with relations twice a month until menopause or I get lucky enough to have some dread disease requiring a hysterectomy or

-have 5 more children and hope my brain doesn't explode.

Awesome.

 

 

I am so sorry. I was unable to successful use NFP. The only advice I have would be to consider that the church is wrong on this issue. Man is not God and man's rules are not always from God. Maybe you can spend some time in bible study and prayer and let God speak to you personally rather than relying on another person's interpretation of the bible.

[Catwoman]

IMO the only people who take seriously this teaching are found online. Usually about one family per parish practices NFP in my experience.

 

Naturally online homeschool communities have an unnaturally large component of this type bc hello, we are weirdos. Lol

 

 

IRL at my actual church where I actually go I know very few families who worry about NFP and if this isn't your experience try a different parish.

 

My IRL experience has been the same -- the problem here, as I see it, is not that Moxie doesn't have options, but that she has deeply ingrained beliefs and fears that won't allow her to consider those options. We can talk all day about how nobody we know believes as strongly about these things as she does, but the only thing that will accomplish is to make her feel worse about her situation.

 

That's why I said that my opinion wouldn't be helpful to her. If we're not operating off the same set of deeply-held beliefs, it's not going to do her any good to hear how "the other half" lives. I'm sure that part of Moxie wishes she had never been taught that certain things were mortal sins, so she could just go ahead and do what others do, and not feel any guilt. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed, and after reading her posts, I simply can't imagine that someone so devout and so dedicated to her religion (as she knows and interprets it) is going to be able to just say, "Well, other people do it, so I will do it, too." It would seem totally out of character for her.

 

While many of us may not understand it, she is really torn about this. She is incredibly distressed and I honestly don't think there is much that anyone can do to help her, except hope that she will be able to sort this out in her own mind. This isn't a matter of joining a more liberal parish; Moxie is going to take her beliefs and fears wherever she goes. That's one of the reasons why I have been pretty quiet in this thread. I thought that people who were "walking the walk" right along with her (in terms of using NFP) would be far more helpful to Moxie than I could ever be. Justamouse, Martha, and several others have shared their own experiences and ideas, and while a few people may criticize them for taking a tough stance on this issue, I admire them for it. They have strong beliefs and they live their lives by those beliefs, and it's not always easy, so it really annoys me when anyone acts like what they're doing is unnecessary or old-fashioned or whatever. It's insulting.

 

What this whole thing really comes down to is this -- Moxie knows what options are out there for her. She's not an idiot. She knows about different kinds of birth control and alternative ways of having s*x without intercourse. She knows what she was taught about what is right and what is sinful, and at this point in her life, she is unhappy with what she believes to be the right/only thing to do, and wants to talk about it so she can make a decision she can live with. I truly wish her answer could be as simple as to say, "I can just take a pill for that? Cool! Problem solved!!!" But it's not. :(

[milovany]

What this whole thing really comes down to is this -- Moxie knows what options are out there for her. She's not an idiot. She knows about different kinds of birth control and alternative ways of having s*x without intercourse. She knows what she was taught is right and wrong, and at this point in her life, she is unhappy with what she believes to be the right/only thing to do, and wants to talk about it so she can make a decision she can live with. I truly wish her answer could be as simple as to say, "I can just take a pill for that? Cool! Problem solved!!!" But it's not. :(

 

I really appreciate that you "get" this, Cat, and articulate it so well (and with compassion), even though it's not your belief system. As stated above, I feel for Moxie because I also have something in my life that's hard in a similar way, but my faith is the foundation of my life, so it's not necessarily possible to say, "I'm going to go with Option B" when my faith is calling me to Option A. One can't really rip out their foundation without a lot of probably harder consequences as a result. It makes for a difficult situation, but thankfully, I know God is a good God, and that this struggle is part of my journey to salvation (wholeness) in Him. I have to press on, and with His strength and mercy, and the prayers of the saints, I will.

[PIE!]

I'm not Catholic - but I do think that if one believes a religion, one should follow its teachings. So do what you feel is right.

 

I am wondering about medically necessary BC pills though. I know the pill is often prescribed by doctors as a way to regulate irregular cycles, even for someone who is abstaining. Would the use of the pill for medical reasons be against Catholic dogma? Would it matter if the person was married or not?

 

Only a doctor would be able to diagnose and treat Moxie's (or anyone else's) specific problem, but I know in some cases a woman with irregular cycles would be prescribed BC temporarily (maybe a year or so) just to help the body learn to regulate.

 

Again – don’t know if this is a viable option, and I haven’t read the whole thread, so I don’t know if this has already been asked. I hope you find peace somehow.

[shinyhappypeople]

Does the Roman Catholic church consider mental health (depression, anxiety, etc) do be a legitimate medical reason to use birth control?

 

What do you believe happens if you commit a mortal sin?

[Momof3littles]

I'm not Catholic - but I do think that if one believes a religion, one should follow its teachings. So do what you feel is right.

 

I am wondering about medically necessary BC pills though. I know the pill is often prescribed by doctors as a way to regulate irregular cycles, even for someone who is abstaining. Would the use of the pill for medical reasons be against Catholic dogma? Would it matter if the person was married or not?

 

Only a doctor would be able to diagnose and treat Moxie's (or anyone else's) specific problem, but I know in some cases a woman with irregular cycles would be prescribed BC temporarily (maybe a year or so) just to help the body learn to regulate.

 

Again – don’t know if this is a viable option, and I haven’t read the whole thread, so I don’t know if this has already been asked. I hope you find peace somehow.

 

I was wondering this too. Many insurance providers and physicians RX BCP to help with symptoms of PCOS and regulate cycles. Going for more than 3 months without a cycle can be a risk factor for endometriosis, for example. Like I said, I'm not Catholic but attended a Jesuit University. I thought it was okay if it was for a medical reason, but again, I am no expert on Catholicism, and am just an amateur who had to take numerous theology classes including some coursework on NFP.

 

I don't do BCP for other reasons, but it could an area of doctrine you might want to investigate.

 

And again, if you pursue testing for PCOS or other conditions that can cause irregular cycles, there may be non BCP options that regulate your cycle. PCOS is commonly treated with metformin (a diabetes/insulin sensitizing drug) and diet these days. It may get you regular enough that NFP becomes easier to manage.

[Moxie]

Quick answers--the Church does permit the pill as medicine however that isn't something I would ever use. It won't "fix" me, I have some risk factors for stroke, and I believe that the pill can cause a fertilized egg to not implant which is not something I'm ok with. As for the mental health question, I have no idea but I doubt it and I have no mental health issues anyway.

[UrbanSue]

Does the Roman Catholic church consider mental health (depression, anxiety, etc) do be a legitimate medical reason to use birth control?

 

What do you believe happens if you commit a mortal sin?

 

 

 

As to the second, mortal sin must:

 

1. involve grave matter

2. be committed with full knowledge

3. and deliberate consent

 

So, for example, killing someone is a mortal sin if you, in your right mind, head out with your gun to shoot someone. It's not a mortal sin to accidentally run someone over with your car.

 

If you commit a mortal sin (and it is REALLY not for anyone else to ever judge another person's soul on this stuff) you are in danger of hell if you die without going to confession. Mortal sins can be forgiven in the confessional. But in order for a confession to be valid you must intend to stop the sin you are committing. Most people (myself included) sin the same way over and over and over (in smaller non-mortal ways) but you have to at least be willing to try to stop whatever it is.

 

You can't accidentally commit a mortal sin. You can't commit one against your will. It's not a mortal sin if you didn't know it was wrong. Mortal sins do not equal eternal damnation. They are all forgivable.

 

As to the first, yes, there are reasons you might need hormone treatment for medical reasons and this treatment might have what is called the "double effect" of rending you infertile. Similarly, if you have ovarian cancer you can have your ovaries removed and it's not the same as having your tubes tied just because you don't want more babies. There is a post way upthread about this with someone's daughter and endometriosis, I believe. Double effect is fine. Some questions, however: is the Pill an effective remedy for the medical condition? There are often lots of side effects. Are they going to be worse than what is being treated? Cycles can be even worse post-Pill. These are things to discuss with a doctor, obviously.

[Orthodox6]

BC as a cure for mental health conditions? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Murphy101]

BC as a cure for mental health conditions? :confused: :confused: :confused:

 

 

Nope. For that matter it doesn't cure irregular cycles either. It just masks the symptom of irregular cycles, which may or may not even be a health issue to begin with. There are things that are more time consuming to figure out and do that can help makes cycles more regular for many people without abc.

[Little Nyssa]

O6, yes, sometimes BCPs are used to treat cyclic depression, and can work well in those cases. I mean severe depression associated with PMS-- it does happen.

The other thing is the idea that it is a lesser evil to use B/C if the lady is struggling with mental illness and a pregnancy could cause her to become suicidal.

Edited to add, I am just trying to give information about how it's seen from a medical perspective.

[Orthodox6]

O6, yes, sometimes BCPs are used to treat cyclic depression, and can work well in those cases. I mean severe depression associated with PMS-- it does happen.

The other thing is the idea that it is a lesser evil to use B/C if the lady is struggling with mental illness and a pregnancy could cause her to become suicidal.

Edited to add, I am just trying to give information about how it's seen from a medical perspective.

 

 

Thank you for this clarification. My understanding of depression and other mental/behavioural health conditions (experience on multiple levels with multiple people) is to treat those conditions with medications and therapies designed for the purpose. BC is not designed for that purpose. If the depression is treated, then one can regroup and deal with the BC issue for what it is. I'm not saying yes/no about the BC, just placing it in the right category.

 

ETA: What you mention would be, then, an "off-label" use for BC medications.

[momma2three]

I assume the original person who mentioned mental health is because not everyone can effectively handle many children without feeling overwhelmed, overanxious, and depressed.

[milovany]

That's what I thought was meant as well. If having numerous children close together cause mental distress, is that a medical reason to use BC? (I'm not asking the question, but saying this is what I thought was being asked.)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Honestly, I think one can be a good catholic and use birth control whether hormonal or barrier since the Church also teaches the one must follow their own conscience. It is not emphasized these days IMHO but a relative who is a nun taught me that as well as the Jesuits way back in the 1970s.

 

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

 

Please no tomatoes, I am just expressing my honest opinion.

[momma2three]

That's what I thought was meant as well. If having numerous children close together cause mental distress, is that a medical reason to use BC? (I'm not asking the question, but saying this is what I thought was being asked.)

 

Yes, and I think that it's a valid concern. Some people can handle a lot of kids spaced closely together with beauty and grace... one of the kindest, most patient, most loving mothers I know had 7 kids in 6 years. And others just can't deal with the stress, the noise, the multi-tasking, and so forth. I count myself in the latter group, fwiw :) I always wanted a large family (6 was my goal), but I have reached a breaking point at 3, so no more for me. Sometimes I think that maybe when mine are much older, I'll try again for another 3... but then I think of how nice it would be to just have the 3 teenagers and be able to travel with them and do things that little kids make it very hard to do, so I probably won't.

 

And before someone comes in with "God only gives us what we can handle," I know plenty of adult children of overwhelmed and under-appreciated mothers who "handled" their situation with alcohol, pills, violent anger, and passing on adult responsibilities to young children... and those children universally limited their own families to 1-2 children. Just my opinion, but I'd think that God prefers a mentally healthy mother and happy, well-cared-for children over an overwhelmed mother who can't meet the needs of her family.

[gardenmom5]

And before someone comes in with "God only gives us what we can handle," I know plenty of adult children of overwhelmed and under-appreciated mothers who "handled" their situation with alcohol, pills, violent anger, and passing on adult responsibilities to young children... and those children universally limited their own families to 1-2 children. Just my opinion, but I'd think that God prefers a mentally healthy mother and happy, well-cared-for children over an overwhelmed mother who can't meet the needs of her family.

there is a big difference between God giving us challenges we can handle - and US going and deliberately, if naively, biting off way more than we can chew. I've known people who did that - and then blamed God for giving them too much. ummm, no.

[shinyhappypeople]

I assume the original person who mentioned mental health is because not everyone can effectively handle many children without feeling overwhelmed, overanxious, and depressed.

 

 

Yup, you got it right.

 

For the record, I'm not implying anything about the mental health status of the OP. I'm just asking questions, because I'm curious.

[milovany]

I always wanted a large family (6 was my goal), but I have reached a breaking point at 3, so no more for me. Sometimes I think that maybe when mine are much older, I'll try again for another 3... but then I think of how nice it would be to just have the 3 teenagers and be able to travel with them and do things that little kids make it very hard to do, so I probably won't.

 

 

When someone tells me, "I don't know how you do seven, I can't handle two!" (which I realize is a bit different from what you're saying, but it just jogged this memory) sometimes I remember that life got so much easier after the olders hit 10, so I'm glad I kept going. These days, I live the life of a queen. My daughters do 95% of the cooking, the kids keep the house tidy, one of the olders does the gardening and animal care, our oldest does the yard care, etc. All of this is with (mostly!) happy hearts -- we're not making them do these things. It's a balance of "this is what our family needs" and personal preference. I'm not saying YOU should have more; just sharing a thought I have sometimes.

 

You could have the three kids later as you describe, and let those three be the ones that get to do the traveling and what-not with you, instead of the older three. The older three get/got different benefits.

 

:)

 

ETA -- I hope this post is received in the spirit in which it was intended; mostly just musing out loud. I have no notion of what you "ought" to do. One of my least-liked conversation starters is "You know what you should do?" -- depending on who is saying it/why.

[albeto]

Honestly, I think one can be a good catholic and use birth control whether hormonal or barrier since the Church also teaches the one must follow their own conscience. It is not emphasized these days IMHO but a relative who is a nun taught me that as well as the Jesuits way back in the 1970s.

 

 

http://www.vatican.v...sm/p3s1c1a6.htm

 

Please no tomatoes, I am just expressing my honest opinion.

 

 

See, the problem is, someone's conscience can differ from the teaching of the RCC if they don't know better. Moxie does.

 

But yeah, looking for a loophole an alternative point of view is the first thing anyone does when faced with a dilemma like this. Ultimately, the individual is looking for something to support what they know to be good in the first place. I thought only protestants did that with finding the bible verse that backs them up, but learned that Catholics do it to with official church teaching (look back at *Michelle* and my exchange to see how that can go).

 

Ultimately Moxie (and millions like her) have little choice in the matter. If her training and conditioning is such that leaving the RCC creates too much anxiety, she'll be compelled to stop having sex with her husband during any but the utmost safest times. To do otherwise would be no more possible than say, a person with a fear of heights bungie-jumping or sky diving or any other terrifying thing that they simply cannot bring themselves to do. Free will only applies within the framework of choices you can freely make.

 

The other option she has is to redefine her faith to either incorporate birth control without guilt (or without crippling guilt) like most American Catholics do, or decide the RCC isn't the authority for the faith of Christ it claims, or she can it altogether and figure the Christian faith really isn't capable of taking care of some of the most precious things to a person (self-identity, sense of safety, value, belonging, etc).

[Catwoman]

I had no idea you were a physician or a scientist !

 

 

That was mean. :glare:

[Murphy101]

 

That was mean. :glare:

 

Meh. Par for her course. *shrug*

 

But I'm quite cheered you came to my defense! :)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

That was mean. :glare:

 

No more so than someone trying to give medical advice (some of which is wrong) based on limited information.

[Catwoman]

No more so than someone trying to give medical advice (some of which is wrong) based on limited information.

 

If she wanted to question the information Martha presented, she could have done it politely, rather than making a sarcastic comment.

 

or you know, relegating someone to the fiery eternity in hell for choosing to regulate their own fertility.

Mean is so often a question of one's perspective.

 

I didn't think Martha was being mean, and I don't recall her ever using the phrase, "fiery eternity in hell" at any point during the discussion. She was stating the position of the church as she understands it, and it appears that Moxie and others concur with her assessment. (I'm no church scholar, so I don't have any info on church teachings.)

[[email protected]]

And now we're done.