What happens if a therapist decides someone might be a danger to themselves?

[Anne in CA]

Julie, I am praying. I also want to say that I see your plan is rational in one sense, but please do believe that abusive men do often start out well and then this "hard heartedness" appears after more than 20 years of marriage. It often crops up after the children leave the house when there is no one to witness. It is entirely possible that this behavior is making himself feel better as he suffers over losing his farm. He is making you suffer instead of himself and it is comforting to him. If there is a Abuse Recovery Ministries in your area the counselors there could help you see if he is pulling something over on you, or really needs your help.

 

If he really needs your help you are not doing him any favors by staying with him. I would make the neurology examination a hill to die on. If he will not do it, I would move out even if he has a problem, so that you are not there to cover for him and he can come to the realization that he needs medical treatment to live. If he really does have a brain tumor, he needs you to leave him alone to face it. If he is really sick he will not have to face it as long as you are there to cover for him. It may be his only chance to seek treatment.

 

ETA: Your children would understand leaving their father if he will not seek medical attention if they understand you are trying to save his life. If you move out and he seeks visitation with your kids you should be able to prove to a judge that he has dementia (he does not remember his affair) and the children should not have to visit him without you there for more than a few hours at a time.

[Retired]

Sorry Julie :grouphug: :grouphug: deleted original post do to you clearing up some stufff. I'm still going with my thoughts that the situation you are choosing does not sound healthy. Please share your true feelings with the thearpist. I don't know the whole story with your dh. He sounds like the burnden of loosing the farm and his honor are breaking his soul. He is striking out at you to make himself feel bettter. THe man is not the same guy you married 25 years ago. He may still be in their somewhere but for now his behavior is hurting you. The best thing you can do for everyone is "heal" yourself then maybe you can help him. What are your kids seeing? THe children pick up the emotional things from their parents. THe idea of staying for the better good of everyone may not be healthy for the kids. Do they need to see a mother and father clinically depressed and the father lashing out at the mom. I hope you find some peace. I know we can't make decisions for you. The forum world reallly can't know the "all" but I'm guessing we are all sincere that we want you to be at peace safe and happy. I hope you are able to make the right healthy choice for yourself and children

[Julie in CA]

Whew! I think I'd better correct some misconceptions. Some of them I probably created by my phrasing, or lack of clarity, or...honestly, a little mental fog on my part, once in a while.

 

My husband absolutely is *not* threatening suicide, and he never has. At the same time, he is (or was for nearly 50 years) a man who has always been deeply committed to right and wrong. This is not a man who has had trouble staying faithful and honest over the years. It's new, and completely out of character. There is absolutely no way that he could do what he did and not be racked with guilt, even if his addled brain is doing it's best to compensate with huge doses of denial. The therapist is probably right that he will not be able to hold on like this for very long, and to be perfectly honest, I don't have the impression that the therapist is worried so much for my husband, as he is concerned for my wellbeing if that should happen.

 

My decision to stay for now is absolutely *not* based upon an idea that I might be able to save my husband, or help him heal, though that would be a happy side benefit if the Lord chose to bless me with the ability to help. The decision is *absolutely* based upon what I see as the best for my kids at this point. If I can do this, it will indeed be the most self-sacrificing thing I'll ever have done, though even I freely admit that tomorrow or next week or next month, I may decide I just can't see it through. I'm not foolish enough to believe that this is the best thing for me, but it may well be the best for the other people I love. I will either find a way to be more at peace with my situation, or the situation will have to change. I just need to hold out with the pain & despondency at this particularly difficult level until I can figure out a way to be okay with this plan, or until I give up and get out.

 

I have reasoned out my thought processes with the therapist, and explained what I see as my choices, and the pros & cons of each. The therapist has commented that my logic does seem sound, and that my personality & values are such that it might indeed be a valid choice for me. Not an easy choice, by any means, but still a valid (and not *completely* unhealthy) one.

 

As for the possibility that I'm still being lied to, I COMPLETELY know that it's not only possible, but LIKELY to be the case.

I have considered that. If he takes up with the {insert all of the most denigrating terms you can come up with} again, then so be it. I will not give up more of me or my children for him, and I will consider my charity towards him to be fulfilled. At that point, it would clearly be better for my children and I to make a happy home together somewhere else, and I would not hesitate to do so in that case. There are some things in place to help me know if he's seeing her. It's not 100% foolproof, but there's an extremely high likelihood that I would know if he returns to the affair, and my knowledge would not be based on his word. If he goes back to it, I WILL find out. You'll have to trust me on that one. Technology, in this case, is my friend.

 

I'M ABSOLUTELY NOT STAYING BECAUSE I'M TOO WEAK OR AFRAID TO BE ON MY OWN. I'm not yelling, but I want you all to hear that loud and clear.

Leaving would definitely be the easier course, and I'm not staying because of a self-esteem issue that makes me believe I don't deserve something better than this.

I deserve better. I know that to be completely true. I've been on the board here for a long time, and some of you probably know my personality/character fairly accurately. I like to take the high road. I like to reach down and find whatever noble part of me exists, and present that to the world as a gift of sorts. One of the things about this choice that I really, really like, is that it's completely in line with the best part of my character. I like doing hard things, and being better than I think I can. This is *that* in action, and I'm secretly (obviously not secret any more though) delighted that though they've taken a lot from me, I'm still me. The me who would take the high road, whatever I perceive that to be. I know many will not understand why I would possibly do what I'm trying to do, but I know most of you will probably be able to rejoice with me, that I am still, in most ways that matter, the brightest, shiniest, strongest version of myself, even if I falter in my resolve sometimes and slip into despondency. Hopefully the depression & lowness pass, and the road smoothes out before me.

 

I have been up front with the therapist about everything except the *depth* of the despondency.

I love to be strong. I'm unhappy that it's not clear whether my strength and faith can carry me through this. I have never before found something that I thought I might not be able to muscle through, and it's a foreign experience to me to need help in the way I need it now. I like to analyze problems and find solutions, then cross it off my list. That's just not working for me now, and I'll have to cultivate a different skill set in order to learn to rely on other people a little. I agree that I will have to be more honest with the therapist, so that someone neutral can be the one to gauge whether I'm still okay and able to continue on this road (or not). It really is stupid to pay for the help & expertise, and then not use it. I'm going to try and do better with that.

 

I still appreciate your prayers, even though I know some of you are weary of hearing my story and not seeing me take the actions that seem the most logical.

I get that, and you may be right. Time will certainly tell.

 

For now though, thanks for being my friends. Because you have the choice to read it, or not, and the choice to respond, or not, I feel completely at peace with accepting your kindness. Thank you all so much.

[Unicorn.]

Oh Julie. We are not weary of you, or your story. We all care about you greatly, and want to make sure that YOU are going to be okay in all this. I know that I wish, and I'll bet most of us wish, that we lived closer to you, so we could give you that hour of normalcy each day, or whenever you need it. I hope all these posts don't make you feel worse. We all just really, really, want you to be okay! :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Alte Veste Academy]

((((Julie))))

 

For what it's worth, I understood what you were saying about being there with/for the kids. I know so many people who say they would be "outta there," but the reality is that logistics pose a problem sometimes. Given your situation, I think you are coping pretty darn well. I do agree that you should be more open with your therapist, but in no way do I see you as a pushover, especially considering what you just added about staying true to your character. A long time ago, I encouraged you to get angry about this situation, and I still feel that you have a right to be angry. But, honestly, I am sick of hearing the peanut gallery's opinion of your DH's character. We can all agree that cheating and lying are despicable, but all those "outta there" people seem incapable of considering your long marriage, your kids' needs, and the kind words you have to say about your DH from before this giant mess. As helpful as I hope it is for you to come here, always remember that you know you, your DH, your kids, your family best.

[Joanne]

{{{Julie}}}

 

Julie, the fact that his behavior now is wholly incongruent with the man you've known (and I believe you, and don't think this is a case of you not knowing the abuse dynamic or whatever), it is possible that is is a result of something organic. It could also be trauma induced - depending on the stress of the last few years.

 

It could *also* be the absolute evil "addiction" like pattern that develops around an affair.

 

Once again, I understand and support you choosing, with your eyes open, from a few choices - none of them good, happy choices. Your therapist sounds awesome. :)

 

Please do think about the self care post I made, k? I also PMed you.

[8circles]

The ONLY way for you to make an ounce of difference by staying, is to get your dh fully evaluated- voluntarily or not. If he's not being treated, there is zero point in staying. Once he's getting treatment (for whatever), you'll be able to make decisions about leaving with all the cards on the table. Guilt free. What you're doing now is not sustainable.

 

If he really needs your help you are not doing him any favors by staying with him. I would make the neurology examination a hill to die on. If he will not do it, I would move out even if he has a problem, so that you are not there to cover for him and he can come to the realization that he needs medical treatment to live. If he really does have a brain tumor, he needs you to leave him alone to face it. If he is really sick he will not have to face it as long as you are there to cover for him. It may be his only chance to seek treatment.

 

You are breaking spiritually and emotionally this is not good for YOU or your kids. I really believe you need to start a exit plan NOW and get out from the stress and your perceived responsility for your dh emotional well being.

 

 

Yes to all of the above.

 

Julie, the fact that his behavior now is wholly incongruent with the man you've known (and I believe you, and don't think this is a case of you not knowing the abuse dynamic or whatever), it is possible that is is a result of something organic. It could also be trauma induced - depending on the stress of the last few years.

 

It could *also* be the absolute evil "addiction" like pattern that develops around an affair.

 

Once again, I understand and support you choosing, with your eyes open, from a few choices - none of them good, happy choices. Your therapist sounds awesome. :)

 

 

I also agree with this post. I'm not telling you to get "outta there". What I'm saying is I understand you're reasoning. I just think that what you describe as your H & the relationship that the two of you have right now, isn't healthy for the kids. I don't see the benefit of you staying for them. They are witnessing something really unpleasant & although they may not be having the immediate trauma of their parents splitting up, they are seeing something very unhealthy, possibly internalizing it, & it may follow them their whole lives & in all their relationships. You haven't said how much you're talking to your kids about this so you could already be doing this. If you continue to stay, please, please, please talk to them as much as you can to explain what is happening & what your thoughts are. Don't let them see this without telling them all of the truth about the why's. If you already are, I encourage you to continue.

 

I'm not weary of hearing about your situation. I feel for you & will pray as often as I can. God Bless, Julie. You are an amazing, beautiful woman. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Jaybee]

 

I wonder if your husband could be suffering from a medical condition like Alzheimer's? Or a brain tumor? So many symptoms you describe sound like Alzheimer's. I know that depression and other mental illnesses can mimic those symptoms, but medical conditions can also produce symptoms that mimic mental illness.

 

 

 

 

I haven't read the posts after this, but I was wondering this same thing. Alzheimer's can cause behavior changes in the beginning that just look like the person is being selfish or idiotic (like having an affair, or acting irresponsible, or hanging around with people they normally wouldn't have). Later, when it has progressed, it is easier to look back and see that those were early signs of its development. It might be worth checking out.

[Saddlemomma]

Hi Julie,

 

I'm not familiar with your situation, only with what you have posted on this particular thread. As a sister in Christ, I applaud your commitment to stand by your vows in helping your dh through this illness. However, the whole issue is whether or not it is an illness. How will you know if he keeps refusing to see if there is a problem?

 

I was married to a man for 12 years. Suddenly he started drinking a lot and became very insulting towards me. One day, my dd, who was 9 at the time, asked me if we were going to get a divorce. This came totally out of the blue. I quickly assured her that we were fine and not to worry. Two weeks later I found out he had been seeing another woman. Well, we did get a divorce. My point is, your children are probably seeing, hearing and realizing more than you think. I'm sure they see the change in the way dh treats you, as well as them.

 

You need to get some support. You need friends and fellow Christians to hold your hand and be there for you so you know that you're not alone. You need to tell your therapist everything. (Is your therapist a Christian? Depending upon how devout you are, this may be crucial.). You need to sit down with your children and the therapist all together. Your kids need to understand what is going on; they are old enough. Then you will have the ability to cry when you need to, and they will understand and be there for you. You won't need to feel like you have to hide every emotion all the time. That is not healthy and doesn't provide any release for you.

 

Staying strong requires a strong foundation. You need to build that foundation with strong friends, family and professional help who will help to support/hold you up when you feel like giving up.

 

:grouphug: I will keep you in my prayers.

[Cera]

There are some wonderful meetup groups out there that might allow you to find the group of friends you need and to get a break from the stress of daily life. Join a few that you think sound like fun and start taking a day or two a week to go out and do something for yourself. There are even meetup groups designed for support during the separation and divorce process that might help you to have a place to vent. I joined one before I ended my marriage and it gave me a group of people that were going through the same things (or had already been through them) to bounce ideas off of and vent to.

 

There is also the divorce care series of classes offered by many churches. You don't have to be divorced to sign up and it might give you another outlet to relieve some of your stress.

[Joanne]

You need to get some support. You need friends and fellow Christians to hold your hand and be there for you so you know that you're not alone. You need to tell your therapist everything. (Is your therapist a Christian? Depending upon how devout you are, this may be crucial.). You need to sit down with your children and the therapist all together. Your kids need to understand what is going on; they are old enough. Then you will have the ability to cry when you need to, and they will understand and be there for you. You won't need to feel like you have to hide every emotion all the time. That is not healthy and doesn't provide any release for you.

 

 

I am a licensed therapist, and trained in a Chistian seminary.

 

The truth is that many people, regardless of spirituality, are able to support, help, and encourage others. Try not to limit your God by deciding for Him who is "best" to help anyone else.

 

Yes, I am woefully familiar with the "one anothers" in the NT and the design for community outline throughout those pages.

 

The professional reality is that seeking life and marital support is a crap shoot. There is a lot of risk involved if you encourage a person to use "Christian" as a standard of professional mental health care.

 

A trained, licensed counselor will be able to encourage, support, and guide clients within the client's worldview, paradigm, and code.

[Scarlett]

{{{Julie}}}

 

Julie, the fact that his behavior now is wholly incongruent with the man you've known (and I believe you, and don't think this is a case of you not knowing the abuse dynamic or whatever), it is possible that is is a result of something organic. It could also be trauma induced - depending on the stress of the last few years.

 

It could *also* be the absolute evil "addiction" like pattern that develops around an affair.

 

Once again, I understand and support you choosing, with your eyes open, from a few choices - none of them good, happy choices. Your therapist sounds awesome. :)

 

Please do think about the self care post I made, k? I also PMed you.

 

My sense is that the affair has changed his character in the way addictions do....as Joanne says. Also if he is truly not still in the affair his behavior also make sense...he is despondent because he is in withdrawal....

 

As far as you staying for even 2 more years? I will tell you the danger in that is that time will pass and it will seem normal to stay and even weird to leave 2 years after you discovered an affair and 2 years will turn into 5 and then 10 with nothing really ever being resolved.

 

But that is your choice to make and I do understand your thinking on this even if I don't agree with it.

 

One of the reasons I kicked now xh out so quickly and so firmly is that I feared he would talk me into forgiving him. I knew I would be destroyed if I stayed in that marriage after all that he had done to me.

 

I also wanted to say that I understand that feeling of wanting the pain to end....but to me that wasn't suicidal....I just wanted the earth to swallow me up. But be honest with your therapist so you have that safey net in place in case you go too far into despair.

 

And listen to Joanne.

[Catwoman]

Julie, thanks for posting an update, but I find myself even more confused than ever on a few points.

 

In an earlier post, you said:

 

He's clearly emotionally ill at this point, and is having some...not sure what the technical term would be--cognitive impairment? He's having difficulty with regular things like decoding words, memory issues, etc. He truly doesn't remember his inappropriate actions with that young woman, and it's not just him trying to pull one over on me. He's clearly drawing a blank if anyone mentions it at all.

 

 

But in your most recent post, you said:

 

 

As for the possibility that I'm still being lied to, I COMPLETELY know that it's not only possible, but LIKELY to be the case.

I have considered that. If he takes up with the {insert all of the most denigrating terms you can come up with} again, then so be it.

... There are some things in place to help me know if he's seeing her. It's not 100% foolproof, but there's an extremely high likelihood that I would know if he returns to the affair, and my knowledge would not be based on his word. If he goes back to it, I WILL find out. You'll have to trust me on that one. Technology, in this case, is my friend.

 

Earlier, you indicated that you know he truly can't remember what he did with the other woman, so he's not lying about it... but then you said that it's not only a possibility that he's lying, but that it's likely to be the case. And if you're worried about the possibility of him seeing her again (and obviously you are, or you wouldn't bother to have traps in place so you can catch him,) it's pretty clear that you think he remembers her and their relationship.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Also, you mentioned that he's having cognitive issues like decoding words and memory issues, yet you say he mostly holds it together in public. :confused:

 

Maybe I'm just clueless, but some of this just isn't making sense to me.

 

I hope I'm completely wrong about your dh, and that he ends up changing back into the man you knew and loved, but unless there truly is a medical issue here, I have to admit that I'm not too hopeful.

 

Are you still planning on starting your new business? I hope you are -- it sounds like a great idea. :)

[Scarlett]

And one more thing Julie. You mention not having IRL support because you don't want to burden people......I will tell you what my sister said one time about caring for our ill parents. It is a privilege to care for people that you love.

 

Just invite a friend or two out for coffee. Talk about your problems or not. I would even encourage you to say, " friend, I am having a rough time and need a little break. Are you free for coffee this afternoon?" Do you think any one is going to say no to that? People WANT to help....and one of two things will happen....it will be nothing more than a few hours away from your troubles...or the beginning of a friendship that can grow. Win either way.

[Catwoman]

And one more thing Julie. You mention not having IRL support because you don't want to burden people......I will tell you what my sister said one time about caring for our ill parents. It is a privilege to care for people that you love.

 

Just invite a friend or two out for coffee. Talk about your problems or not. I would even encourage you to say, " friend, I am having a rough time and need a little break. Are you free for coffee this afternoon?" Do you think any one is going to say no to that? People WANT to help....and one of two things will happen....it will be nothing more than a few hours away from your troubles...or the beginning of a friendship that can grow. Win either way.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[justamouse]

Also, you mentioned that he's having cognitive issues like decoding words and memory issues, yet you say he mostly holds it together in public. :confused:

 

 

 

My FIL had us all fooled FOR YEARS with the depth of his cognitive decline. He hid it so well, even up until the month before he died. My MIL would share *horror* stories and there he'd be, sitting across the table, talking with you just fine as long as you didn't go too deep.

 

As soon as the door closed? The curtain would come down and he'd be really awful. And, it wasn't him. He wasn't an angry man, yet the dementia made him angry. Things he'd never say or do...

 

The only reason we even found out was that he was fired. He was in accounting, and they just couldn't tolerate his mistakes anymore. Then he fell into a deep, dark depression, he wouldn't leave the house, it was scary. For dementia, all of her 'symptom' sharing lines up. He was hiding it for about 3 years before he was diagnosed.

[celticmom]

Oh, Julie, you have such strength and grace.

 

I believe that any decent therapist can well understand the difference between thinking about it being easier to be dead and a specific immediate intent to harm yourself.

 

I think you are strong and are thinking clearly and generously. Only you can know the best course for your life and only you has the responsibility for your family. There is no easy answer for you, and any choice you make has pain involved. No one has the right to judge you.

 

I wonder if your husband could be suffering from a medical condition like Alzheimer's? Or a brain tumor? So many symptoms you describe sound like Alzheimer's. I know that depression and other mental illnesses can mimic those symptoms, but medical conditions can also produce symptoms that mimic mental illness.

 

I will hold you in my prayers and thoughts, for comfort and peace. I am so sorry you are going through this terrible time.

 

 

:iagree: Especially with the bolded. When you mentioned actual cognitive symptoms the possibility of an undiagnosed medical problem of some sort was the first thought that entered my mind.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[swimmermom3]

((((Julie))))

 

For what it's worth, I understood what you were saying about being there with/for the kids. I know so many people who say they would be "outta there," but the reality is that logistics pose a problem sometimes. Given your situation, I think you are coping pretty darn well. I do agree that you should be more open with your therapist, but in no way do I see you as a pushover, especially considering what you just added about staying true to your character. A long time ago, I encouraged you to get angry about this situation, and I still feel that you have a right to be angry. But, honestly, I am sick of hearing the peanut gallery's opinion of your DH's character. We can all agree that cheating and lying are despicable, but all those "outta there" people seem incapable of considering your long marriage, your kids' needs, and the kind words you have to say about your DH from before this giant mess. As helpful as I hope it is for you to come here, always remember that you know you, your DH, your kids, your family best.

 

 

There are many, many women on this board (probably numbering in the triple digits) that do understand that the logistics of leaving, whether temporarily or for good, are problematic. There are also many, many (and yes, women of faith, too) women on this board who are quite capable of considering long marriages, the needs of children, and the golden moments with a man that may or may not be the same person from all those years ago and still leave. They have been there and have the t-shirt. Some of those "outta there" women left quickly, many of them left after spending considerable time and anguish trying to fix their situations. Some have regrets; some have new lives.

 

Each woman that has participated on this thread out of love and support for Julie brings to the table her singular set of values, expectations and life experiences. Those unique sets color the advice we give Julie. As Joanne pointed out, there is no absolute set of instructions or one straight pathway for Julie to follow in these circumstances. I think as a support network, we can offer Julie practical things to take on her journey with her like advice for eating better and the name of a good multivitamin or we can offer prayers or soul-lifting poetry, but we can not make Julie's journey for her, nor can we evaluate the value of her journey or the choices she makes along the way. We are like the pit crew at the races; we can offer gas and tires, but we can't take the wheel.

 

Julie, I wish you a safe passage through this time of challenge. :grouphug:

[Scarlett]

 

 

 

My FIL had us all fooled FOR YEARS with the depth of his cognitive decline. He hid it so well, even up until the month before he died. My MIL would share *horror* stories and there he'd be, sitting across the table, talking with you just fine as long as you didn't go too deep.

 

As soon as the door closed? The curtain would come down and he'd be really awful. And, it wasn't him. He wasn't an angry man, yet the dementia made him angry. Things he'd never say or do...

 

The only reason we even found out was that he was fired. He was in accounting, and they just couldn't tolerate his mistakes anymore. Then he fell into a deep, dark depression, he wouldn't leave the house, it was scary. For dementia, all of her 'symptom' sharing lines up. He was hiding it for about 3 years before he was diagnosed.

 

 

It also lines up with going against your moral code. And she knows he did that with the affair.

 

Regardless she can't force him to go for a brain scan and she has to take care of herself.

[Scarlett]

I have had conversations with my lying cheating now xh and he claims to not remember things that I have proof DID happen. Is he lying? Probably....or he is re inventing the facts to make it something that he can bear to live with.

 

Affairs make people act crazy. Men ( and women) risk everything they hold dear to indulge their desire to be with affair partner. Not unlike people act when addicted to drugs or alcohol.

 

I am not there with Julie or her husband...but nothing she has said about him until today make me think he could have something neurologically wrong with him.

[Susan C.]

From my observations.... No one mentions much about the financial situation, that the farm (their livelihood) is going under. For some men, that is HUGE. A lot of men seem to wrap their entire identity around their career. And his is crumbling. If memory serves me right, that may be the beginning of her dh's troubles. Not that its right, no way. What Julie can watch for is what he does when his world is crumbling around him. That tells a lot about character, will, and strength to change if necessary. I've seen the whole spectrum, from the man falling apart and never recovering, to him picking up the pieces, finding something else to do, recovering, and moving on. I would be fine if the man is working intelligently to resolve the crisis (rather than staying in denial and giving up) and go through a process to a new and different life. I don't think I would (or could) support someone that has just given up. Most SAHMs don't have the earning power to support an entire family and out of necessity have to leave (so they don't have to support the husband). And also, many SAHMs wishing to leave stand to lose their children if they can't earn enough to support her and them. Not an easy situation at all.

[QuirkyKapers]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: to you Julie!

[Saddlemomma]

I am a licensed therapist, and trained in a Chistian seminary.

 

The truth is that many people, regardless of spirituality, are able to support, help, and encourage others. Try not to limit your God by deciding for Him who is "best" to help anyone else.

 

Yes, I am woefully familiar with the "one anothers" in the NT and the design for community outline throughout those pages.

 

The professional reality is that seeking life and marital support is a crap shoot. There is a lot of risk involved if you encourage a person to use "Christian" as a standard of professional mental health care.

 

A trained, licensed counselor will be able to encourage, support, and guide clients within the client's worldview, paradigm, and code.

 

The only reason I suggested a Christian counselor, Joanne, is because they may understand the intricate theological reasons why a devout Christian/Catholic may not even consider divorce versus a secular counselor. A devout Christian may not feel they can divorce, but if a Christian counselor can help them realize that there is only so much you can do, maybe it will help soften a horrendous situation. In addition, a devout Christian may not feel comfortable with a secular counselor. For me, I wouldn't think of going to a secular counselor to discuss any situation because I want the Biblical perspective in my life at all times and wouldn't feel like a secular counselor could understand my perspective. I don't think less of secular counselors, I just would want someone who shares my worldview.

 

I in no way wanted to imply the counselor HAD to be Christian (in fact I think I mentioned....."if you are devout"....) So, I heartily apologize if I ruffled your feathers.

 

Peace

[Scarlett]

From my observations.... No one mentions much about the financial situation, that the farm (their livelihood) is going under. For some men, that is HUGE. A lot of men seem to wrap their entire identity around their career. And his is crumbling. If memory serves me right, that may be the beginning of her dh's troubles. Not that its right, no way. What Julie can watch for is what he does when his world is crumbling around him. That tells a lot about character, will, and strength to change if necessary. I've seen the whole spectrum, from the man falling apart and never recovering, to him picking up the pieces, finding something else to do, recovering, and moving on. I would be fine if the man is working intelligently to resolve the crisis (rather than staying in denial and giving up) and go through a process to a new and different life. I don't think I would (or could) support someone that has just given up. Most SAHMs don't have the earning power to support an entire family and out of necessity have to leave (so they don't have to support the husband). And also, many SAHMs wishing to leave stand to lose their children if they can't earn enough to support her and them. Not an easy situation at all.

 

 

 

Are you saying he is acting unstable because he is about to lose the family farm? Or are you saying that is why he had an affair?

 

Julie would have continued to support him through losing the family farm...I feel very confident in saying that. It was the affair that has pushed her to the edge of wanting out. Well, actually I think she has indicated she DOES want out...it is the execution of the details that she is struggling with.

[Rosie_0801]

I want the Biblical perspective in my life at all times and wouldn't feel like a secular counselor could understand my perspective. I don't think less of secular counselors, I just would want someone who shares my worldview.

 

 

You might be surprised how often God chooses to act through atheists and pagans...

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

 

You might be surprised how often God chooses to act through atheists and pagans...

 

 

That's a very biblical truth.

Signed,

Cyrus

[maize]

{{{Julie}}}

 

Julie, the fact that his behavior now is wholly incongruent with the man you've known (and I believe you, and don't think this is a case of you not knowing the abuse dynamic or whatever), it is possible that is is a result of something organic. It could also be trauma induced - depending on the stress of the last few years.

 

 

 

I have wondered about this. Your description of your husband's decline both personality-wise and in cognitive function actually reminded me of what happened to a friend's husband when he had a brain tumor. He was there physically, but his personality was completely changed and he was not in any way the warm loving person he had been.

[swimmermom3]

nm - not helpful for this particular situation

[Juniper]

That's a very biblical truth.

Signed,

Cyrus

 

 

 

 

 

 

....or, The Donkey. ;)

 

In all seriousness, I think there may be a fundamental misunderstanding of the counselors role. Even a secular one should never be counseling someone to divorce.

 

Julie, dear one, you are in my thoughts constantly. I am so grateful you have little bumblebee angles in your area and if you should need anything...even to discuss options within your specific church organization ...please know you can pm me (since I am familiar with it) or know that you very welcome to join the FB group. You have my support and acceptance. ((((hugs)))))

[texasmama]

Julie, you really rock, girlfriend. Everything you wrote in your most recent update made perfect sense to me. Clearly, you have thought this through, and you are one sharp cookie. Love and support from me, no matter what you choose to do. (((hugs)))

[texasmama]

Re: therapists with the same religious/spiritual beliefs...I am a therapist who is also a Christian. I am not a Christian therapist. There is a difference. If you (the universal you) can wrap your mind around what that difference is, then you (the universal you) can understand why it may not be crucial to find a therapist with the same spiritual beliefs, whatever those might be. :) (I know Joanne will agree with me that myths about what therapy/counseling are abound.)

[Joanne]

The only reason I suggested a Christian counselor, Joanne, is because they may understand the intricate theological reasons why a devout Christian/Catholic may not even consider divorce versus a secular counselor. A devout Christian may not feel they can divorce, but if a Christian counselor can help them realize that there is only so much you can do, maybe it will help soften a horrendous situation. In addition, a devout Christian may not feel comfortable with a secular counselor. For me, I wouldn't think of going to a secular counselor to discuss any situation because I want the Biblical perspective in my life at all times and wouldn't feel like a secular counselor could understand my perspective. I don't think less of secular counselors, I just would want someone who shares my worldview.

 

I

 

"Divorce is not an option" counselors are harmful.

 

As harmful as those who suggest divorce.

 

Our job is to help the client make decisions and make the best of those decisions.

[Joanne]

 

 

Are you saying he is acting unstable because he is about to lose the family farm? Or are you saying that is why he had an affair?

 

Julie would have continued to support him through losing the family farm...I feel very confident in saying that. It was the affair that has pushed her to the edge of wanting out. Well, actually I think she has indicated she DOES want out...it is the execution of the details that she is struggling with.

 

I don't know what she is saying, but *trauma* changes the brain. Not just *thinking* but actually changes the brain structurally and chemically. As such, facing the loss of a family farm after a severe financial struggle (especially for a male) could be sufficient trauma to cause a personality change.

[Scarlett]

 

 

I don't know what she is saying, but *trauma* changes the brain. Not just *thinking* but actually changes the brain structurally and chemically. As such, facing the loss of a family farm after a severe financial struggle (especially for a male) could be sufficient trauma to cause a personality change.

 

 

Ugh. I will defer to your expertise bit it sounds like one big excuse to go cheat on your wife.

[Joanne]

Ugh. I will defer to your expertise bit it sounds like one big excuse to go cheat on your wife.

 

 

It's why returning soldiers are not the same. It's why at risk youth can't make and maintain changes even when the changes would benefit them. It's why people become hoarders. It predisposes people to be more likely to have an addictive response to chemicals. It's why refugees from natural disasters continue to have trouble. It's why terrorism "works".

 

It happens in even seemingly less impactful situations such as abusive marriages, bankruptcy, sudden, expected death of a loved one.

 

It's not an "excuse". It's that the impacted brain is, by definition, not the same brain that the person had before the trauma.

[Arcadia]

It's why returning soldiers are not the same. It's why at risk youth can't make and maintain changes even when the changes would benefit them.

 

:iagree:

Also a person with an inflated or deflated self worth is unfortunately more likely to cheat.

 

However it would be good if Julie's husband agrees to a full medical just to rule out any unknown medical issues.

[Terabith]

Honestly, it is the difficulty with decoding words that seems like the biggest symptom of something organic. Wish there was some way to get him a medical work up. I am just so sorry, and I do understand your reasoning, Julie. Praying for you. But if things get worse, I hope you will look on your plan as negotiable.

[Catwoman]

Ugh. I will defer to your expertise bit it sounds like one big excuse to go cheat on your wife.

 

:iagree:

 

My feeling is that I don't care if he cheated because he had some sort of emotional breakdown over the farm thing, or if he did it because has some form of PTSD, or if he started seeing another woman to help him work through self-esteem issues........ HE STILL CHEATED. And he's not sorry about it. And he hasn't been treating Julie well, anyway, even without the "other woman" issue.

 

And FWIW, Julie lost the farm, too, and I'm sure she has plenty of self-esteem issues stemming from the fact that her dh cheated on her... yet somehow she's not cheating on him. Somehow, she has managed to do the right thing, despite having been in the exact same circumstances -- and considerably more, once her dh started messing around with another woman. So there's no way I'm giving her dh a pass, just because he was going through a tough time. When times are tough, you suck it up and deal with it, buddy; you don't run out and cheat on your wife.

 

OK, if it turns out that he has a brain tumor that has been affecting his personality and his actions for the past year or so, maybe Julie can cut him a little slack, but he won't even see a doctor, so she's caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

I don't think she should sacrifice her life and her happiness on the off-chance that her dh is sick, especially when he hasn't been diagnosed with anything and he isn't willing to seek medical attention to find out if there's a problem.

 

In my mind, it's all well and good to say that he might have Alzheimer's or he might have a brain tumor, but if he's not going to find out, then Julie isn't obligated to worry about him. She can only base her decisions on his past and present actions (which have been far less than stellar,) not on some "what-if" possibilities that she may never be able to confirm.

[maize]

 

In my mind, it's all well and good to say that he might have Alzheimer's or he might have a brain tumor, but if he's not going to find out, then Julie isn't obligated to worry about him. She can only base her decisions on his past and present actions (which have been far less than stellar,) not on some "what-if" possibilities that she may never be able to confirm.

 

I think all the is being said is that there may be two victims in the situation--with Julie as the unfortunate second casualty. That doesn't make her pain any less real or her various options any less valid. It's just sad all around whatever the primary cause might be.

[Mrs Mungo]

Julie,

 

I agree with Joanne that it seems like the affair may have been part of a pattern of addiction. There have been things you have mentioned here and there on the board over time that I think have hinted at this. As such, people with severe addictions will do anything to continue in their habits. It often takes hitting rock bottom for them to change. He won't hit bottom with you there to lift him up in your self-sacrificing manner. You *aren't* helping him when you enable him to more or less continue on with his life as it was before. *That* is the puzzle piece you seem to be missing. It is *not* helping him any more than it is helping you.

[katilac]

nm