Arming (some) school staff? What do you think of this article?

[justLisa]

I don't want teachers packing. That is NOT their job.

 

 

 

I so agree with that

[MAIMOM]

http://www.snopes.co...ics/ausguns.asp

 

Just thought to check snopes sight..have modified my post.

[Dmmetler]

For several years, my former school shared a building with a police substation while they were building a new precinct. They needed a home base, and my principal offered the space. It was good for the kids to see police officers as part of their daily life (this was in an urban area where many of the families were very suspicious of the police), and there were more than a few people who were willing to make reports when they could do so while dropping a child off at school or while going to see their Nephew's school program, but who would never have done so had they had to go into a police department-specific building where they might have been seen and assumed to be reporting on their neighbors.

 

I really wonder if more dual-purpose public buildings might be a good option. In my city, many of the older PS buildings are half empty due to dropping student populations, so it seems like a win-win to use them for other public services, and I can't help but feel that in a crisis a trained police officer or two would be much more helpful than any in-service that you send teachers through.

 

 

When I taught, I also had at least 2-3 colleagues in every school I worked in who were retired military or military reserve. If you were going to arm any teachers/school staff, those would be the folks who I'd think would be most capable of using a weapon appropriately in a crisis.

[AimeeM]

For several years, my former school shared a building with a police substation while they were building a new precinct. They needed a home base, and my principal offered the space. It was good for the kids to see police officers as part of their daily life (this was in an urban area where many of the families were very suspicious of the police), and there were more than a few people who were willing to make reports when they could do so while dropping a child off at school or while going to see their Nephew's school program, but who would never have done so had they had to go into a police department-specific building where they might have been seen and assumed to be reporting on their neighbors.

 

I really wonder if more dual-purpose public buildings might be a good option. In my city, many of the older PS buildings are half empty due to dropping student populations, so it seems like a win-win to use them for other public services, and I can't help but feel that in a crisis a trained police officer or two would be much more helpful than any in-service that you send teachers through.

 

 

When I taught, I also had at least 2-3 colleagues in every school I worked in who were retired military or military reserve. If you were going to arm any teachers/school staff, those would be the folks who I'd think would be most capable of using a weapon appropriately in a crisis.

My dd's grade 4 teacher (male) was a semi retired decorated police officer.

I love the idea of dual purpose buildings.

[jelbe5]

So you suggest teachers should walk around schools with loaded guns? Because unless you have a gun on you and it's loaded (as opposed to stored in a safe place), it isn't going to do you much good if somebody jumps into the classroom and starts shooting. I wouldn't want to wake up in a world where teachers walk around with loaded guns and I certianly won't send my kid to school that allows this.

I too would like a society where guns aren't around.

 

The thing is, you may have have people you interact with in your life who already carry concealed. You don't know it. That is the whole point. I am sure there are teachers out there who would be willing to carry concealed. The permit for concealed carry is issued by the state and each state has requirements. IL is the only state that does not allow concealed carry. But the bad people don't care about the law. I was held up at gunpoint in Chicago. The thug didn't care about whether or not it was illegal to have a gun or not.

 

I understand people would like to live in a world without guns. This is unrealistic. I would like it if we lived in a world where people obeyed the law all the time, but that is unrealistic, too.

[Joker]

I like the idea of dual purpose buildings as well, but don't think they're really feasible. In our county they're constantly building new schools to accomodate the growth. There is no extra space. Also, our zoned elementary and middle schools are only about 1.5 miles apart so I don't know how that would work with two substations that close together.

[TravelingChris]

I lived for three years in a country with stricter gun control laws, though not as strict as Germany's for example. Here is what my experience was- yes, murders were somewhat less common, I think, but can't really say since I don't know people who are murdered here and I didn't there either. (In both countries, I have met people in my circles who have had family members murdered so I know that is isn't such a rare occurence.) HOwever, that is how I judge crime, and I daresay most people do so too. Are there neighbors or friends or co-workers being burgled or robbed?? How many people you associate with are being victimized? When I was a kid living in the DC area (early 60's through very early 80s'). it was very common to know someone who was a victim. When I grew up, I realized that the crime rate in that area was astronomical then and that is why so many people I knew had been thumped on the head and robbed and so forth. But then I went on with my life. In Chicago, I was a victim a few times along with one attempt= it wasn't a very safe city. Then dh got in to the USAF and we moved to coastal southern CA and no more crime. Then to Ohio and still no crimes. Back to inland California, and yes, more crimes (but not to us since we lived further away in a safer area). Then back to Ohio and no more crimes. Then northern CA and no crimes there either, except for robbers trying to rob Wlamart nearby or such places. Then Albuquerque, and no crimes near me but we did know some victims. THen Belgium- I couldn't believe how many people were victims of home burglaries. Some were vitims a few times. It was a regular occurence there= much more common than any place I had lived. Back to FL, nothing, VA, nothing, AL, nothing.

 

In Belgium, we weren't in what would be high crime areas in the States. These weren't slums and the houses broken into were houses of people with money- not like we have so much here where it is the poor who tend to get victimized. I suspect that the poor probably had even more crime but since I didn't know them, (they would have not been associated with NATO), I can't say. What the burglars never expected was an armed occupant. We had a gun there but no ammo so we were in the same position. (It would have been difficult to get ammo).

[Roadrunner]

The thing is, you may have have people you interact with in your life who already carry concealed. You don't know it. That is the whole point. I am sure there are teachers out there who would be willing to carry concealed. The permit for concealed carry is issued by the state and each state has requirements. IL is the only state that does not allow concealed carry. But the bad people don't care about the law. I was held up at gunpoint in Chicago. The thug didn't care about whether or not it was illegal to have a gun or not.

 

I understand people would like to live in a world without guns. This is unrealistic. I would like it if we lived in a world where people obeyed the law all the time, but that is unrealistic, too.

 

 

I just don't see how having more people carry guns makes us safer. I can think of situations where you could create shootouts because of misunderstanding, or because somebody had a little something to drink, or plain stupidity.

I buried my 17 year old friend because our 22 year old male friend was showing off his gun, which he accidently shot straight into my friends forhead at a party.

I would lilke to be informed if anybody at my kids school is carrying a concealed weapon. I won't allow my children anywhere near that school anymore.

[Hoot]

These murderers, while deranged and deeply disturbed, are not dumb. They shoot up schools, universities, malls and public places where their victims cannot shoot back. Perhaps "gun-free zones" would be better named "defenseless victim zones."

 

To illustrate the absurdity of gun-free zones, Goldberg dug up the advice that gun-free universities offer to its students should a gunman open fire on campus. West Virginia University tells students to "act with physical aggression and throw items at the active shooter." These items could include "student desks, keys, shoes, belts, books, cell phones, iPods, book bags, laptops, pens, pencils, etc." Such "higher education" would be laughable if it weren't true and funded by taxpayer dollars.

 

Eliminating or restricting firearms for public self-defense doesn't make our citizens safer; it makes them targets. If we're going to have a national debate about guns, it should be acknowledged that guns, in the hands of qualified and trained individuals subject to background checks, prevent crime and improve public safety.

 

 

EXACTLY. THIS.

 

DH and I are planning to take classes and become certified to own and carry a weapon. We also bought DS13 a pellet gun for Christmas as a precursor to teaching him to shoot a real gun. I think it's important to learn to defend oneself against violence and teach children to both respect human life and respect the weapons that could potentially take that life away.

[Parrothead]

I didn't read all the replies as of yet.

 

It takes a certain mentality to be able to shoot another human being. And one must shoot to kill not shoot to disable. I don't think it is a good idea to arm teachers. I don't think it is a good idea to arm the office staff. I may be wrong but I really think most would just freeze, and possibly end up giving any potential shooter another weapon.

 

Shooting is not easy. It doesn't happen as shown in the movies. A person who shoots with accuracy needs constant practice. At a minimum at least monthly practice and quarterly qualifying. You aren't going to see a lot of teachers out there doing that.

 

If anything is done to protect school children, I think preventing access is a much better idea. A system of automatic lock downs of steel door which lead to classrooms would be a start. Bullet resistant glass in the windows would help too. There are plenty of safety measures that can and should be taken instead of arming teachers. Restricted access, and gated grounds being a few more measures.

 

I wouldn't be against a police presence or a trained administrator being armed. But not all the teachers.

[Parrothead]

The thing is, you may have have people you interact with in your life who already carry concealed. You don't know it. That is the whole point. I am sure there are teachers out there who would be willing to carry concealed. The permit for concealed carry is issued by the state and each state has requirements. IL is the only state that does not allow concealed carry. But the bad people don't care about the law. I was held up at gunpoint in Chicago. The thug didn't care about whether or not it was illegal to have a gun or not.

 

I understand people would like to live in a world without guns. This is unrealistic. I would like it if we lived in a world where people obeyed the law all the time, but that is unrealistic, too.

There is a big difference between carrying a weapon and being able to use it, and use it well. The teacher with a handgun in her purse tossed in a desk drawer is asking for some kid to get hurt.

 

And believe me. I'm the last person on these boards who is anti-gun.

[jelbe5]

I just don't see how having more people carry guns makes us safer. I can think of situations where you could create shootouts because of misunderstanding, or because somebody had a little something to drink, or plain stupidity.

I buried my 17 year old friend because our 22 year old male friend was showing off his gun, which he accidently shot straight into my friends forhead at a party.

I would lilke to be informed if anybody at my kids school is carrying a concealed weapon. I won't allow my children anywhere near that school anymore.

 

The idea is that, if there are more law abiding, armed citizens walking around (and you do not know they are armed because they are responsible concealed carry individuals) the bad guys will think twice about pulling a gun out. Most criminals are bullies and cowards and if you pull out a bigger bat than the one they are waving they will turn and run. And the law actually protects criminals who do turn and run . . . in a hypothetical situation, if I was a gun owner and someone broke into my home and I armed myself, legally I cannot fire upon the intruder if that individual turns and runs away.

 

As I mentioned before, I was held up at gunpoint in the city of Chicago where evening owning a handgun is illegal. I am a law abiding citizen. Why am I not allowed to take steps to make sure I can defend myself in a life threatening situation? I was lucky I was only a robbery victim, but I would like to be able to be better equipped to defend myself should such a situation arise again. I was attacked (because having a gun pointed at you is an attack) in the gated parking area of the complex I lived in at the time.

 

Unfortunately, we cannot disinvent guns and make them go away. The law abiding people will be the ones effected; not the criminals.

 

I am truly sorry for the loss you sustained. You said one friend shot the other while displaying a gun at a party. The word party, to me, implies drinking may have been involved. That is usually a bad time to be showing off a gun. I would need to know more about the circumstances before I could comment further on that situation, but I am guessing your friend used poor judgement. I see this situation as being similar to driving a car when under the influence . . . it shows poor judgement and can have devastating consequences, both personally and legally.

 

Editing to add: I do not want to fight with anyone, I only want to present my point of view here. I used to be very anti-gun until I was attacked. But that situation changed my position. But I realize there will be those who disagree with me and we must respectfully agree to disagree.

[AimeeM]

There is a big difference between carrying a weapon and being able to use it, and use it well. The teacher with a handgun in her purse tossed in a desk drawer is asking for some kid to get hurt.

 

And believe me. I'm the last person on these boards who is anti-gun.

That's the other thing. Where are these teachers supposed to SAFELY STORE a gun in a classroom??? A safe? That isn't going to do much good in an emergency; what's more, I would have been the first in high school to figure out a way to jip my teacher's safe key (and I wasn't the worst student, by far).

[BrookValley.]

There is a big difference between carrying a weapon and being able to use it, and use it well. The teacher with a handgun in her purse tossed in a desk drawer is asking for some kid to get hurt.

 

And believe me. I'm the last person on these boards who is anti-gun.

 

Agree. The idea of arming teachers in schools is absolutely ludicrous.

 

And while I feel that the gun issue needs to be talked about, it's detracting from the real issue: mental health care. We can argue both sides of the gun issue up one side and down the other (and I have opinions on both sides, FWIW) but what I really want to know is what drives any person to this kind of horrific act. It's not the gun that made him do it; Adam Lanza was a seriously disturbed individual. What happened?

[Parrothead]

 

Agree. The idea of arming teachers in schools is absolutely ludicrous.

 

And while I feel that the gun issue needs to be talked about, it's detracting from the real issue: mental health care. We can argue both sides of the gun issue up one side and down the other (and I have opinions on both sides, FWIW) but what I really want to know is what drives any person to this kind of horrific act. It's not the gun that made him do it; Adam Lanza was a seriously disturbed individual. What happened?

 

I think these are two sides of the same coin. A mentally disturbed individual does not need access to firearms. Both must be discussed by our leaders and more than that there needs to be action taken and resources utilized.

[jelbe5]

That's the other thing. Where are these teachers supposed to SAFELY STORE a gun in a classroom??? A safe? That isn't going to do much good in an emergency; what's more, I would have been the first in high school to figure out a way to jip my teacher's safe key (and I wasn't the worst student, by far).

 

 

The only safe place to store a gun is in a locked safe with limited access. However, if you want to access the gun in a situation, the best place to store the gun is on your person. There are many ways to wear a gun, safely, in a manner where others would not even notice it.

 

You have to understand, I am not talking about having teachers who have limited ability to begin to conceal carry. I am talking about highly motivated individuals who would like to assume that additional level of responsibility. I am sure there are plenty of teachers out there who may already be responsible gun owners and who may even have their conceal carry, but because they are law abiding citizens they do not bring their gun within 1,000 feet of a school.

 

I have a police officer friend. Even when he is off duty I know he has a weapon on his person. I just don't see it. There is a good chance he has it on a pants leg holster. We live in a tough community and there is no way he would go out and about with his family and hope he never ran into some thug he busted. He is responsible and has a right to protect himself and his family. Why should this not be the case for other law abiding individuals?

[Reya]

Personally, I think it's WAY above school staff paygrade to not only be trained with guns but somehow keep it out of the hands of unbalanced students (or others for that matter). A trained security guard would be another matter. However, that would just mean more extras would get dropped and education quality would go down even further.

 

 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...what level of background and training do you think most security guards have?

 

I'll give you a hint based on their "pay grade"--literal pay grade: It's low. VERY low.

[astrid]

You know, if I were a kid from a family such as mine (zero experience with guns, except exposure to news video of crimes committed with firearms) I would not feel safer if I knew my school was patrolled by an armed officer. I would be terrified. Terrified that my environment was so unsafe that I had to be guarded by an armed guard wearing body armor, and completely preoccupied by what if's. Likewise if I knew my teacher, with whom I spent 6 hours per day was carrying a concealed weapon and ready to whip it out and start shooting at a moment's notice. I suspect I would not be alone in thinking this way.

 

Sorry. I don't want my kids in that sort of a high-pressure/stressful environment. Additionally, I don't want my kid to have a teacher who always has half her attention on the door.

 

astrid

[astrid]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...what level of background and training do you think most security guards have?

 

I'll give you a hint based on their "pay grade"--literal pay grade: It's low. VERY low.

 

Security guards do not have, as part of their job description, a requirement that they must remain ever-vigilant while simultaneously educating, parenting, and disciplining a class full of children.

 

astrid

[Supertechmom]

In my school district (hell I think my entire state) police officers are assigned to every school, every level and are armed. They can do everything an officer can do. I think ,though I am not sure, they are paid by the police and they are assigned to the schools much like any other officer is assigned a patrol. They can arrest, interrogate, investigate They walk the hallways, mingle with the students, and always are in full uniform with their guns. Is this not done everywhere? We call them resource officers and every school has one. Is this not the norm across the country? and since this is normal and normal in the best school districts where things are considered "right" in all sense of the word, would you still have problems with the armed officer? It is a way of life. If you send a kid to school, they will see an armed police officer every. single. day. I'm being sincere here. I thought this was normal. My kids don't go because I equate this to prison but most parents are thrilled with the resource officer. Is it not that way elsewhere?

[Paige]

Every school we have been associated with has had teachers who are former military. I think allowing or encouraging these teachers who are capable to carry their own weapons may be a good idea. Nobody with any training would keep a loaded weapon in an unsecured location off their person. The weapons should be carried in holsters with appropriate security features on the weapon-ie. nothing chambered and special trigger features. I don't think anyone should be advertising to students who carries and who doesn't and with someone who is trained, there is no reason why anyone else should be able to tell they have a weapon. I think hiring armed guards makes people feel safer but it would not work out well in practice. School budgets are strained enough already. Do we really think we can afford to hire full time effective security at every school? Why not use the trained people that are already employed and give them a little extra to keep up their target practice? I'm not talking about the average sweet old secretary packing in her desk drawer. That's crazy talk! I'm talking about people who have already been trained and have already had extensive background checks. This shouldn't be the only security plan the school has, but one layer of security that could be an option. The school shooting in CT doesn't really make me scared for my children. It was a rare event that would be close to impossible to predict carried out by a single person. What scares me is Beslan and the "success" the terrorists had there. It scares me that our schools are thought of as legitimate soft targets.

 

Similarly, it is ridiculous to compare America's crime rates to other countries. This country is so large and so diverse and being large and diverse itself is a huge risk factor for crime and conflict. It would be like comparing crime in Washington, DC to crime in Mayberry and saying the people in Washington, DC should adopt the policies in Mayberry. I think as we see European countries becoming more diverse that they are starting to have an increase in crime as well despite being much smaller than the US. This isn't because diversity is bad or a reason to restrict immigration, but it's just what happens when you get a whole bunch of people with vastly different micro cultures living together. I'm afraid I will be seen as anti-immigration or diversity now, which is not the case, but rather I feel diversity brings many more good things to a society than negative things.

[Roadrunner]

nm

[Annie Laurie]

I think School Resource Officers are a good idea, not teachers with guns. I will have to look it up, but I did read a comment from a parent on another forum who had the experience of a gunman in their high school, and the gunman was shot and killed by the SRO before he was able to harm anyone in the school.

 

ETA:

I found an article about it. It sounds like the resource officer didn't shoot the gunman, she did prevent him from killing the principal and prevented him from going further into the school until other police officers arrived.

 

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9025899

[msjones]

Bennet writes, "I suggested that if one person in the school had been armed and trained to handle a firearm, it might have prevented or minimized the massacre."

 

This is the suggestion discussed in the article -- one armed staff person -- not the arming of every teacher in every classroom. Not teachers with guns in their desks or cafeteria ladies with pistols.

 

It's a compelling article.

 

From the responses on this thread I wonder how many posters read it.

 

If you haven't, and the idea of armed school staff seems difficult to defend, I encourage you give the article a chance. I learned a lot from it and didn't find it to be overly 'NRA-ish.'

[jelbe5]

My dh and I bring several high school girls to church every week. One of the girls (who attends a "good" public high school) told us that they have been taught to curl up in a ball if they are being physically attacked. Seriously? We have always taught our children to avoid physical conflict wherever possible; to exit the situation if necessary. If there is no escape then they should turn and fight with everything in their being. I am appalled to hear that this young woman is being taught to curl up and become more of a victim, and I think this is one thing that is wrong with our culture. The bullies get away with things instead of being stomped on.

 

The news is now reporting (and I realize there has been plenty of erroneous reporting here) that the murderer actually broke into the school. That takes a little bit of time. The principal sacrificed herself by running towards this criminal with no way to defend herself - with only her bare hands. One or two well trained, armed citizens could have possibly stopped this person cold. He may have been mentally ill, but he had enough presence of mind to realize there would be no one, I repeat, no one, with a weapon to stop his carnage once he got in. It is crazy this person got the gun and did what he did. But is equally crazy, in my opinion, to create and advertise "gun free zones" and hope no evil person will ever come calling. Just like the young lady I spoke of above, it creates a culture of helpless victims. I may still be a victim, but I would like to have the chance to defend myself on a more level playing field.

[Spy Car]

Good grief.

 

What a terrible idea.

 

Bill

[msjones]

Good grief.

 

What a terrible idea.

 

Bill

 

Did you read the article?

 

An honest question, not intended to provoke.

 

I'm just trying to determine if the responses here are to the article or to the general idea of armed school staff.

[WagsWife]

Here is a piece written by a police officer, I think he hits the nail right on the head.

 

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

[Spy Car]

 

 

Did you read the article?

 

An honest question, not intended to provoke.

 

I'm just trying to determine if the responses here are to the article or to the general idea of armed school staff.

 

Yes I read the article (if you want to call it that) and I think William "I use my proceeds from writing The Book of Virtues to support my multi-million dollar gambling habit" Bennett is one sick puppy.

 

Hey, why not just arm the kiddos and have truly superior fire-power?

 

Bill

[WagsWife]

The obsession with guns needs to be changed. It can be done, and I'm sure it will begin with a group of victims' families from the several recent massacres.

MADD started with one grieving, angry mom, and look what they have accomplished. We have a different connotation today about drinking and driving. The same with tobacco--we found a way to deglamorize it. The same will work with these type of guns.

 

 

The number of murders per year from drunk drivers are about the same as the number of murders per year from firearms.

[msjones]

Here is a piece written by a police officer, I think he hits the nail right on the head.

 

http://www.policeone...nemy-is-denial/

 

 

His article is a practical perspective on the problem of defending a student body. Interesting. Thanks for the link.

[msjones]

Yes I read the article (if you want to call it that) and I think William "I use my proceeds from writing The Book of Virtues to support my multi-million dollar gambling habit" Bennett is one sick puppy.

 

Hey, why not just arm the kiddos and have truly superior fire-power?

 

Bill

 

 

Hmmm...

 

I believe that your perspective on the article is now clear.

 

I don't know much about William Bennett or his gambling habit, but believe the article addressed the issue thoughtfully and provided some interesting information.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Hmmm...

 

I believe that your perspective on the article is now clear.

 

I don't know much about William Bennett or his gambling habit, but believe the article addressed the issue thoughtfully and provided some interesting information.

 

 

Mr Virtuous evidently blew over $8 million on his gambling addiction.

 

And I disagree about the article, I think it is intentionally inflammatory in its approach, ill-timed and insensitive, and bat-sh** crazy in its suggestions!

 

Bill

[msjones]

As a former ps teacher, I do agree with Bennett that schools are incredibly vulnerable places. Hundreds of children and mostly women with nothing at all resembling a means of defense. One school where I worked did require random gunfire drills during which we all laid flat and face-down on the classroom floor. These were very disturbing drills, but I did appreciate that the possibility of a shooting was being addressed.

 

My husband is a high school teacher and once encountered a student with a gun in the locker room. He chased the student off campus. I was horrified. My husband said there was no other option -- no one nearby had any other way to deal with the armed student.

[goldberry]

. He may have been mentally ill, but he had enough presence of mind to realize there would be no one, I repeat, no one, with a weapon to stop his carnage once he got in.

 

 

Yet other murderers have attacked at movie theaters, shopping malls, and work places. They don't seem to be intimidated by the thought that someone might have a gun in those locations.

 

You're suggesting that someone that sick and disturbed went through some kind of logical assessment to select a place least likely to have guns for defense. I don't see that happening.

 

Another poster mentioned about resource officers. Our entire school district here has ONE resource officer, who also holds regular police duties. Although I would oppose teachers carrying guns, I would not oppose each school having a trained and qualified police officer (or someone with similar qualifications) assigned to the school.

 

ETA, I also get frustrated with why the gun discussion has to be all or nothing. Most people in favor of stricter gun regulation (and more importantly more enforcement) are not out to "outlaw guns".

[goldberry]

Another observation, why is it that every time there is a tragedy, everyone is in a huge rush to "make changes" or "do something" without seriously taking the time to investigate how effective those changes are? It's all about making people FEEL safer whether or not they actually ARE safer.

 

"Let's arm teachers..." "All guns should be outlawed..." I'm not saying neither of those might help, but they are just gutcheck emotional reactions that need to be thought through and investigated logically.

 

There is usually a flurry of "do something" and then everything fades into the background again often without the problem being addressed in any serious way. Much of the TSA policy changes after 9/11 fall into the category in my view.

 

It's just so frustrating to watch the same scenario play out over and over.

[cin]

 

6. IF this is implemented, with whom do we fill the classrooms vacated by teachers who would rather quit their job than carry a loaded weapon? Surely there would be a mass exodus of educators leaving the profession. So who covers the shortages?

 

astrid

 

 

 

This might not be a problem. Teachers who have left the field because they felt unsafe might well return if they can pack heat and feel safer.

 

Not saying I agree or disagree.

[TXMomof4]

Another observation, why is it that every time there is a tragedy, everyone is in a huge rush to "make changes" or "do something" without seriously taking the time to investigate how effective those changes are? It's all about making people FEEL safer whether or not they actually ARE safer.

 

"Let's arm teachers..." "All guns should be outlawed..." I'm not saying neither of those might help, but they are just gutcheck emotional reactions that need to be thought through and investigated logically.

 

There is usually a flurry of "do something" and then everything fades into the background again often without the problem being addressed in any serious way. Much of the TSA policy changes after 9/11 fall into the category in my view.

 

It's just so frustrating to watch the same scenario play out over and over.

 

 

I agree entirely.

[justamouse]

Here is a piece written by a police officer, I think he hits the nail right on the head.

 

http://www.policeone...nemy-is-denial/

 

 

That was a really good article.

[I.Dup.]

Another observation, why is it that every time there is a tragedy, everyone is in a huge rush to "make changes" or "do something" without seriously taking the time to investigate how effective those changes are? It's all about making people FEEL safer whether or not they actually ARE safer.

 

"Let's arm teachers..." "All guns should be outlawed..." I'm not saying neither of those might help, but they are just gutcheck emotional reactions that need to be thought through and investigated logically.

 

There is usually a flurry of "do something" and then everything fades into the background again often without the problem being addressed in any serious way. Much of the TSA policy changes after 9/11 fall into the category in my view.

 

It's just so frustrating to watch the same scenario play out over and over.

 

 

Nobody is saying all guns should be outlawed. Ugh!

 

And I'm more concerned about continuing for years to sit on our hands and do nothing, I think the desire to want to DO something or CHANGE something in the wake of what could have been a completely preventable tragedy is a perfectly healthy response. How long are we supposed to twiddle our thumbs and let things stay the way they are?

[Lucy the Valiant]

I understand why gun control and mental health are part of the discussion, but I would (respectfully) like to also know why violent video games and media sources are not also part of the discussion.

[Trez]

Can I just say I'm happy to be in Canada when it comes to the gun ownership laws.

 

There are people here with registered firearms primarily for hunting. (My dad had a few) I was attempting to find stats online that are not slanted one way or another but I think this issue is one where stats get interpreted in different ways. Here is a link to an article which states that the US does not have the highest gun violence rate compared to all contries but it does exceed most other industrialized counties.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/

 

I can't see that arming citizens so that they can do the job of trained police would necessarily help. It won't deterr those who are mentally unstable and may increase accidental shootings. I would think that tighter control on at least the assault-type rifles would at least make it a little more difficult for an unstable individual to do as much damage in so little time. (People do kill with knifes, blow torches, cars, etc but they are not usually successful in killing so many in so short a time.)

[justasque]

Several unrelated thoughts:

 

1)

In my school district (hell I think my entire state) police officers are assigned to every school, every level and are armed. ...Is this not the norm across the country? ... I thought this was normal. ... Is it not that way elsewhere?

 

No. No one is armed in my local elementary school, nor the middle school, nor the local private high schools I'm familiar with. The fact is that this kind of event is very, very rare. My local elementary school has been there for 60+ years, and has never had such an incident. That's true of the vast, vast majority of schools in our country.

 

 

2)

I was in an elementary classroom once where a child started to choke. He could not speak - it was serious. The teacher recognized that he was choking (to her credit), and then proceeded to *completely freak out*. She totally panicked, was basically screaming, and started pounding him on the back. She didn't know what to do. She was not able to respond rationally. (I ended up Heimlich-ing the kid. It was scary all around. He was OK in the end.) I cannot begin to imagine how this particular first grade teacher would react if she felt threatened and had access to firearms.

 

(In addition, the teachers in this district do not have any first aid training; nor is there a school nurse at each school full-time. A child needing first aid is a much more likely scenario than a child needing armed protection from an intruder.)

 

3)

The town a few towns over from me has had 23 murders this year, most if not all from gun violence. That's one every other week. That doesn't include those injured by firearms; there were three people injured by firearms on one just one day this week. *This* week, of all weeks. Three wounded by guns on Monday, one killed on Tuesday.

 

Arming teachers wouldn't have prevented any of these deaths. (In fact, I'd assume that the schools in that town already have police presence.)

 

And yet,

4) Last year, a college student in another nearby city, sitting on his stoop at 2am, was the target of a robbery. When the 15-year-old robber shot the student, the student, who had a concealed carry permit, returned the fire. Both ended up in the hospital.

 

I don't have any easy answers.

I'm glad we're all asking the questions.

[DarlaS]

What scares me about armed teachers is that there is always the possibility that a TEACHER could be the shooter.

 

Then what?

 

:confused1:

 

You think a teacher that wanted to shoot someone would wait for permission to carry the gun to class?

[Lolly]

My first thought when the final story was in was that if the principal had had a gun, it would have stopped right there.

 

My second thought was that the drugs being used to treat children are likely behind the violence. The vast majority of school shootings are by people/kids who have been on psychiatric drug treatment that are known for causing violent acts. I think any action taken should start with more research here. The fact that such a large portion (virtually all) of these crimes are committed with this one single link needs to be investigated. Having experienced mental health care for a child personally, tossing drugs at the problem is all doctors seem to know/want to/are able to do. The solution to any problems with a drug is to add another to the cocktail. Children's brains are not fully formed. The results of taking these drugs on a work in progress is unknown. (In my personal experience, it was decided to stop administering the prescribed drugs against the drs orders. Parents have the right to say no.)

 

My third thought was that if he had not had access to guns, he would have made bombs. Everything is easy to gather and assemble. Those bombs could have been even more successful in killing even more in even a shorter amount of time.

[Spy Car]

If the bad guys move to bombs perhaps we could station bomb-squads in every school? Or just give the teachers bombs to throw back at the bad guys?

 

Then maybe the bad guys would turn to rocket attacks? Fortunately we have "The Iron Dome" technology that is battle tested.

 

Of course then the bad guys might turn to thermo-nuclear weapons, but if we gave teachers nukes of their own it might level the playing field. It an't easy staying safe.

 

Bill

[jelbe5]

 

 

 

Yet other murderers have attacked at movie theaters, shopping malls, and work places. They don't seem to be intimidated by the thought that someone might have a gun in those locations.

 

You're suggesting that someone that sick and disturbed went through some kind of logical assessment to select a place least likely to have guns for defense. I don't see that happening.

 

 

Most of those places advertise as "gun free zones" also. I live in IL, the only state in the nation where a person cannot carry concealed. I have visited other states where restaurants, movie theatres, Wal-Marts and other places of business post "gun free zone" signs. Most concealed carry citizens will obey these zones. Personally, I think having such zones are silly. If a person has a cc permit, the state has deemed the individual fit to carry and that should be the end of it.

 

And yes, while I do believe the various shooters dicussed or alluded to in this discussion were mentally ill, I also think they were well enough to plan elaborate schemes where they could hurt lots and lots of people and create noteraity for themselves. And most probably planned to kill themselves or be killed by police. They are the most frightening because they have nothing to lose.

[redheadmom]

Here is a piece written by a police officer, I think he hits the nail right on the head.

 

http://www.policeone...nemy-is-denial/

 

This to me was a great article. It explored ways to keep kids safe while including members of tne community. It didnt require that teachers be armed, only police officers.

[I.Dup.]

If the bad guys move to bombs perhaps we could station bomb-squads in every school? Or just give the teachers bombs to throw back at the bad guys? Then maybe the bad guys would turn to rocket attacks? Fortunately we have "The Iron Dome" technology that is battle tested. Of course then the bad guys might turn to thermo-nuclear weapons, but if we gave teachers nukes of their own it might level the playing field. It an't easy staying safe. Bill

 

This is also the main argument used when talking about any form of gun control, IMO.

[Retired]

The post was a lot of random thoughts with to much cold medicine LOL. I didn't even read the thing. Those that have quoted me were taken out of context.

 

I don't believe that certain religions have a culture of death. I do believe that their is moral decline do to a spiritual loss in this nation. I attibute in to moral relativism.

 

I also made comments about growing up in a culture of guns. When I attended school the guys all had guns at school. They didn't shoot each other.

 

I don't have a problem with the teacher being armed. I'm armed while I traved to and from work in a inner city e/r. We just had a shooting at work. We have guards in the hospital that are not armed. We had to wait for the local police. Oh and 3 were shot but are ok now.

 

I can understand those against guns. I've seen gunshot wound and death. I also benefited from a gun. My family has been kept in meat from deer hunting. I grew poor and when I was first married we were broke. The hunting was a great budget helper.