"How do you know he is on grade level?"

[Loowit]

I got this question recently from a doctor that my youngest son (7) was seeing. We were seeing her for behavioral issues, so I expected questions about how school is going for him, but she seemed really concerned about knowing whether or not he was on grade level.

 

I explained that he would be in 1st grade if I had sent him to public/private school, but that at home he was doing well with 2nd grade curriculum. That didn't seem to make her less concerned as she kept asking a number of times throughout the appointment.

 

Towards the end of the appointment she asked me what I was doing to make sure that I knew he was keeping up. She seemed to want something measurable like testing. I told her that my children start standardized testing at age 8 as per state law, but until then I just trust that if they are doing their work at home okay I am not concerned. When she pushed it further I told her that I wasn't really interested in testing him at this time as I felt he was academically fine. The nice thing with homeschooling is being able to work around his issues. He requires more one-on-one time than I would expect most children his age, but I am able to provide that for him.

 

With friends and family I just tell them that the kids are fine and change the subject if they keep asking. But with professionals like doctors I am not sure what, if anything, I can do to reassure them that DS is "on grade level". DH thinks I should find another doctor, but it is really hard to find someone on our insurance and that deals with these types of behavior issues. I am just not sure what to do.

[myfunnybunch]

Not her business. I had a doctor like that and dropped her like a hot potato.

 

:iagree:

 

I decided to switch to a doctor within walking distance of our house, and switched back to our old pediatrician after our first visit. The new doc asked my son, "Do you ever get to play with other children?" and kept trying to get him to read things to her.

 

LOL, my ds was not disrespectful (just startled), but he looked at her like she'd sprouted a second head when she asked him about playing with other kids. She also told me reprovingly, "You have to make sure to keep things clean," when ds told her we had a dog and cats and birds. I think *I* looked at her like she'd sprouted an extra head. I barely did not add, "DUH" before I said, "Yes, of course." Who says that?

 

Cat

[Arcadia]

But with professionals like doctors I am not sure what, if anything, I can do to reassure them that DS is "on grade level". DH thinks I should find another doctor, but it is really hard to find someone on our insurance and that deals with these types of behavior issues. I am just not sure what to do.

 

Is your doctor thinking of getting your child services through the school district? I ask because that was the reason my boy's pediatrician asked if my older boy is on grade level. He has behaviour issues that would have gotten him some services.

 

I would look for another doctor if that is not the case. Eventhough I know it is tough to find a good in-network doctor sometimes.

 

For answering being on grade level to parents and in-laws, I use my state's framework as a checklist. If my kids know everything on that list, they are "at grade level"

[Mommy22alyns]

There IS NO "grade level" for a 7yo! Kids vary WIDELY in their levels until around 3rd/4th grade when things start to even out a little bit.

 

You should have asked her how she knew she was a good doctor.

 

:lol: I should just keep you ladies in my pocket if I ever get asked rude questions. :D

[Belacqua]

 

You should have asked her how she knew she was a good doctor.

 

I think I would pay to see that. :)

 

We dumped our first pediatrician for similar reasons. She insisted that my then-four-year-old NEEDED to be around other kids for at least two hours every day. She also pointedly made a note in her file that she would "keep a close eye on his academic progress."

 

Happily, we asked around and found a family doctor who homeschools her own kids. Still with her more than a decade later.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Before I dropped her I would try to see if she really and truly does not understand homeschooling.

 

When my boys were little I once printed out our state's academic standards and showed someone how our curriculum fit those standards and even went beyond. It was the only way to get through to her that I did know what the state thinks children are "supposed" to learn, and I was diligently covering all of it.

 

She truly didn't get it until I explained it that way.

 

Lots of people think the schools really are teaching all those standards. :001_huh:

 

Now if her argument is about you personally, as in, how could you, a non-teacher, really teach him everything at home that he should be learning in school...that's something else entirely and you need a new doc.

[Anne in CA]

There IS NO "grade level" for a 7yo! Kids vary WIDELY in their levels until around 3rd/4th grade when things start to even out a little bit.

 

You should have asked her how she knew she was a good doctor.

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

"Why do you ask?" I think the answer to this question would go a long way toward deciding if this was the doctor for me.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Then again, is it our job to make a doctor understand something like this? I don't think so. It sounds to me that the doctor either has never encountered a homeschooler or is anti homeschooling. I want a doctor to work with me, not against me. I'm not doing anything shady, wrong, or weird by homeschooling.

 

Well, no. It's not our job. I wouldn't blame anybody who didn't want to go through the rigmarole. But if the doctor is otherwise a perfect fit, it might be worth it to find out exactly what she wants to know.

 

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting the OP haul out all the gear and do what I did. I didn't mean that. My effort wasn't for a doctor a school official but for MIL who I have to make peace with for the duration. I was just saying that yes, people can be that clueless about hs'ing.

[Loowit]

Is your doctor thinking of getting your child services through the school district? I ask because that was the reason my boy's pediatrician asked if my older boy is on grade level. He has behaviour issues that would have gotten him some services.

 

I would look for another doctor if that is not the case. Eventhough I know it is tough to find a good in-network doctor sometimes.

 

For answering being on grade level to parents and in-laws, I use my state's framework as a checklist. If my kids know everything on that list, they are "at grade level"

 

I doubt it. I didn't even know you could get services for behavior issues through the schools if they were otherwise on track developmentally. From talking to a few local teacher that are friends/family you have to be behind by a certain amount academically to get help. Now, if he were in a public school I am pretty sure he would need services/help because in a classroom environment he would struggle IMO.

 

I don't even really know what my states guidelines are for what is expected academically at each grade level. I looked years ago when I started homeshooling and didn't find anything. My older two have always done fine on the testing they have done, so I never really worried about it since then.

[Loowit]

I guess I will start looking into other options for a doctor. I will ask his counselor at his next appointment if she has any recommendations. Hopefully there are other options.

 

His primary care doctor, while not supportive of homeschooling, at least doesn't question it. She has never asked about the academics side except a quick "how are they doing with schoolwork" which I suspect she asks everyone.

[GAPeachie]

I think I would pay to see that. :)

 

We dumped our first pediatrician for similar reasons. She insisted that my then-four-year-old NEEDED to be around other kids for at least two hours every day. She also pointedly made a note in her file that she would "keep a close eye on his academic progress."

 

Happily, we asked around and found a family doctor who homeschools her own kids. Still with her more than a decade later.

 

This is exactly why we left the pediatricians we had seen (I tried several here!) and ended up at a conservative, pro-life family practitioner. His wife homeschools their 6 children. He is 100% supportive of breastfeeding and safe co-sleeping. It is nice for him to "get" the homeschooling, the large family and that I don't want to use hormonal birth control.

 

He sees our whole family and has learned how we fit together. His advice is as valuable to us as his medical care. Everytime we go in, I beg him not to retire until my children are all grown.

[TranquilMind]

I got this question recently from a doctor that my youngest son (7) was seeing. We were seeing her for behavioral issues, so I expected questions about how school is going for him, but she seemed really concerned about knowing whether or not he was on grade level.

 

I explained that he would be in 1st grade if I had sent him to public/private school, but that at home he was doing well with 2nd grade curriculum. That didn't seem to make her less concerned as she kept asking a number of times throughout the appointment.

 

Towards the end of the appointment she asked me what I was doing to make sure that I knew he was keeping up. She seemed to want something measurable like testing. I told her that my children start standardized testing at age 8 as per state law, but until then I just trust that if they are doing their work at home okay I am not concerned. When she pushed it further I told her that I wasn't really interested in testing him at this time as I felt he was academically fine. The nice thing with homeschooling is being able to work around his issues. He requires more one-on-one time than I would expect most children his age, but I am able to provide that for him.

 

With friends and family I just tell them that the kids are fine and change the subject if they keep asking. But with professionals like doctors I am not sure what, if anything, I can do to reassure them that DS is "on grade level". DH thinks I should find another doctor, but it is really hard to find someone on our insurance and that deals with these types of behavior issues. I am just not sure what to do.

 

Wow. I was never grilled by the doctor like this. You mention behavior issues, so I can only assume that it had something to do with this.

 

Oh, and from what I have heard and read, you couldn't pay me to see a pediatrician. We used my family doctor. Family of origin, husband and myself and now my kids. He really knows us and our history.

[TranquilMind]

Everytime we go in, I beg him not to retire until my children are all grown.

 

Mine is two years older than me, and is a geriatric specialist, I discovered when my elderly Mom was ill (he was her doctor too). How convenient for me (unless he retires first).

[justamouse]

Find another Dr.

[Arcadia]

I didn't even know you could get services for behavior issues through the schools if they were otherwise on track developmentally.

 

My kid would not talk in school, outside, doctor's office, dentist office. It took him about 30mins at the clinic before he would talk to the pediatrician. His first pediatrician could not get him to talk at all. At one point we were wondering if he has selective mutism.

 

From 3-5 years old, our pediatrician could give us a referal to speed up getting the school district to test my boy for services. I understand he would have qualified for speech theraphy.

 

Once he is eligible for kindergarten, than he has to be enrolled in a school/chartered school/virtual academy to get services. That is for our school district.

 

We choose not to pursue services.

 

ETA:

These are the school related questions on the 6-12 years old checklist my pediatrician's medical group uses.

 

"

 

 

SCHOOL

Current grade /name of school _______________________________________________________________________

Do you have concerns about your child’s school performance? No Yes Unsure

Has your child’s teacher raised concerns about your child’s school performance? No Yes Unsure

Do you have concerns about your child’s interactions with peers at school? No Yes Unsure

Please list any activities your child participates in after school or on weekends: _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________________________________ "

Edited October 5, 2012 by Arcadia

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I think you handled it better than I would have. I don't like pushy people. :glare:

[Dmmetler]

I think some of that is typical for pediatricians in general. My DD's pediatrician has a standard list of questions for each age level that she runs through, and it includes academic skills, making me think they ask it of everyone. Since it takes a pediatrician referral to get any sort of testing paid on my insurance, and the appointments are fairly quick, I can see where it might be worth it to give parents an opening to mention that they've seen something that might be troubling, but may not seem like something to tell the pediatrician about. And if your DS's doctor is used to "He's getting A's and B's", she just may not be sure what a homeschooling answer "looks like".

 

I wouldn't assume there was any intent to be insulting or that the doctor is anti-homeschooling over one incident. If it becomes a pattern, that's different.

[Catwoman]

You should have asked her how she knew she was a good doctor.

 

:D :D :D :D

 

That would have been the perfect response! :thumbup:

[JenC3]

I don't want my Dr to care anything about my kids education, just like my plumber shouldn't.

 

I test after 3rd grade to shut people down.

[Luckymama]

 

I wouldn't assume there was any intent to be insulting or that the doctor is anti-homeschooling over one incident. If it becomes a pattern, that's different.

 

:iagree:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't want my Dr to care anything about my kids education, just like my plumber shouldn't.

 

I test after 3rd grade to shut people down.

 

:confused: But the doctor was evaluating the child's behavior and development. Unlike roto-rootering, her job really does have some connection to how the child is learning.

[Loowit]

Sorry, not sure I was clear in my OP. The doctor he saw was a psychiatrist, not his regular ped. He is having anger issues with rages. He is on track developmentally right now.

 

The psychiatrist has currently diagnosed him with Mood Disorder NOS, but is looking to change that as he is going through therapy. She suggested a wide range of things it might be (ADHD, Bipolar, ODD, etc.) but said it would be hard to diagnose without a teacher's impressions.

 

The therapist/counselor he sees does play therapy with him. The psychiatrist he saw that questioned his academics has only seen him once in an online session since she is in another part of our state.

 

I really did expect questions about school and how he is doing, but I didn't expect it to be such an issue.

[Farrar]

Before you switch, I would just bring the issue up with the doctor and say that she was recommended (or whatever, that you want to work with her), but that you don't feel like you can work with her if homeschooling is going to be an issue and you're happy to talk with her about your schooling methods and philosophy to a point as background, but that after that, you want her to be focused on helping your child.

 

As for the "teacher's impressions," I have filled many of those out as a teacher for parents and doctors looking for a diagnosis. They're cursory at best. More like a double checking than anything else - to make sure that the observations match up. If your doctor needs such a form filled out, I would ask if someone else (a scout leader, a Sunday school teacher, a co-op teacher, etc.) could fill them out.

[JenC3]

I know kids that are not too bright to put it lightly, but have normal behavior and physical development, kid who have met milestones. I didn't know whether you could do fractions or spell was the Dr.'s area of knowledge. Seems they miss enough diagnosis' already.

[Arcadia]

The psychiatrist has currently diagnosed him with Mood Disorder NOS, but is looking to change that as he is going through therapy. She suggested a wide range of things it might be (ADHD, Bipolar, ODD, etc.) but said it would be hard to diagnose without a teacher's impressions.

 

That makes sense now. Typically one questionnaire goes to the parent, another to the teacher. After the questionnaires are filled up the psychiatrist will evaluate again.

 

Is there any group activities class your child attend like gym, karate? The coach might be able to fill out the teacher questionnaire.

[Susan in TN]

There IS NO "grade level" for a 7yo! Kids vary WIDELY in their levels until around 3rd/4th grade when things start to even out a little bit.

 

You should have asked her how she knew she was a good doctor.

 

:D How about, "so tell me what you knew when you were 7yo and I'll just make sure to teach him that next week". Pfthffff

[hsingscrapper]

I'm lucky to have pro-homeschooling doctors. It makes scheduling less of a nightmare.

[redsquirrel]

Not having input from a teacher can make things difficult in getting a dx. Often one of the boxes to check off is that the behavior presents itself in more than one environment, and when the parent is not present. The Drs put the same onus on the teachers. If the school is seeing a behavior but the parent is not, then the issue is with the school environment.

 

And a psychiatrist will want to know if a child is struggling (or not) with academics because that can inform a diagnosis. Again, they are used to getting that information through the school. If a child seems very bright, but not working up to level it, along with other pertinent information, can help along a diagnosis. Or, if a child isn't very communicative, but is working on paper beyond their level, it gives a different kind of information.

 

I have had a number of friends who took their homeschooled child to see a psychiatrist and not having the input from the school personnel threw them every time. It was worked around, but it needs a person who can be flexible and work with the parents.

[Forget-Me-Not]

You should have asked her how she knew she was a good doctor.

 

For realz!! "Can I see your MCAT and Board scores? How did your last peer-review go? How many CMEs have you logged this year?" :D

Edited October 5, 2012 by LemonPie

[Impish]

"He quit trying to eat bugs/paste/his little sister" whatever works. ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not having input from a teacher can make things difficult in getting a dx. Often one of the boxes to check off is that the behavior presents itself in more than one environment, and when the parent is not present. The Drs put the same onus on the teachers. If the school is seeing a behavior but the parent is not, then the issue is with the school environment.

 

And a psychiatrist will want to know if a child is struggling (or not) with academics because that can inform a diagnosis. Again, they are used to getting that information through the school. If a child seems very bright, but not working up to level it, along with other pertinent information, can help along a diagnosis. Or, if a child isn't very communicative, but is working on paper beyond their level, it gives a different kind of information.

 

I have had a number of friends who took their homeschooled child to see a psychiatrist and not having the input from the school personnel threw them every time. It was worked around, but it needs a person who can be flexible and work with the parents.

 

Very well said. I hope that you don't automatically see an anti-homeschool bias. This is why I suggested asking for why he/she was asking.

[wapiti]

:confused: But the doctor was evaluating the child's behavior and development. Unlike roto-rootering, her job really does have some connection to how the child is learning.

 

:iagree:

 

Sorry, not sure I was clear in my OP. The doctor he saw was a psychiatrist, not his regular ped. He is having anger issues with rages. He is on track developmentally right now.

 

The psychiatrist has currently diagnosed him with Mood Disorder NOS, but is looking to change that as he is going through therapy. She suggested a wide range of things it might be (ADHD, Bipolar, ODD, etc.) but said it would be hard to diagnose without a teacher's impressions.

 

The therapist/counselor he sees does play therapy with him. The psychiatrist he saw that questioned his academics has only seen him once in an online session since she is in another part of our state.

 

I really did expect questions about school and how he is doing, but I didn't expect it to be such an issue.

 

FWIW, when something like ADHD is on the table - which is a learning issue - I think it's not only perfectly reasonable, but pretty important, for the psychiatrist to ask how the student is performing and whether you've done any standardized testing. I personally would not accept a diagnosis of ADHD without IQ and achievement testing. Achievement testing is how a student is performing for age (/grade level). Not having heard the tone, I have a hard time imagining that any slight toward homeschooling was intended.

[sunriseiz]

"Why do you ask?" I think the answer to this question would go a long way toward deciding if this was the doctor for me.

:iagree:

[kroe1]

I agree that an academic measure of performance is needed for a childhood behavioral diagnosis. Many of the diagnoses have a stipulation that academic performance is affected.

 

But if you really feel this physician was anti-homeschooling because of ignorance, it would be very nice if you could enlighten her. It is certainly not your responsibility to do so. But it will help future homeschoolers in the the same position as you. Perhaps just a quick email with a link to your favorite homeschooling website would help.

 

I have to admit during my "ignorant to homeschooling" years, I was very vocal to admonish lack of socialization. It was my DH, when the last kiddo was already in first grade, who accidentally picked up a homeschooling book and started to read it. Now in my "enlightened" years, I'm angry that homeschoolers did not explain things when it could have made a difference in the other kiddo. I know we want to roll our eyes when we encounter the uninformed, but for the benefit of their children and grandchildren, take the time to explain when you can.

 

:)

[Dmmetler]

Another part of the grade level question might be "What is it taking to KEEP him on grade level?". A lot of homeschooling parents are doing pretty extensive accommodations and adaptations that end up masking what, in the school setting, would be seen as a fairly serious learning/behavioral issue, so the fact that a child is doing 2nd grade level work may or may not actually put him "on grade level" if, for example, the parent is reading much more aloud and is sitting with the child to show the child where each blank is on the page, or is scribing everything for the child. In a school setting, there is going to be documentation of the child's performance AND of any accommodations it's taking, whether they're on an IEP or done through RTI. I can see why a psychiatrist might keep circling back to this point to get more information from a homeschooler.

 

 

And having sat at Park day and heard a parent proudly stating that her 4th grader has finished Explode the Code book 4, so is "ahead of grade level", I can also see why a psychiatrist might want specifics.

[merry gardens]

:iagree:

 

 

 

FWIW, when something like ADHD is on the table - which is a learning issue - I think it's not only perfectly reasonable, but pretty important, for the psychiatrist to ask how the student is performing and whether you've done any standardized testing. I personally would not accept a diagnosis of ADHD without IQ and achievement testing. Achievement testing is how a student is performing for age (/grade level). Not having heard the tone, I have a hard time imagining that any slight toward homeschooling was intended.

:iagree:

I agree with you and with the people you quoted.

 

Based just on the information in the op, it doesn't neccesarily sound anti-homeschooling bias. If a psych md asks how a homeschooler knows her child compares to average, many homeschoolers would provide some type of documentation to answer that question with objective data. Lots of homeschoolers give standardized tests above and beyond state guidelines. The doctor probably expected to hear some objective data because that information could be part of making the prelimary diagnosis and even a pro-homeschooling doctor might have asked for it.

 

Just because a state doesn't require standardized testing until age 8 doesn't mean you have to wait until age 8 to test. Even if a child performed below grade level, that wouldn't neccesarily bring an anti-homeschooling response from a doctor who asked how a parent how she knew it.

[melmichigan]

Another part of the grade level question might be "What is it taking to KEEP him on grade level?". A lot of homeschooling parents are doing pretty extensive accommodations and adaptations that end up masking what, in the school setting, would be seen as a fairly serious learning/behavioral issue, so the fact that a child is doing 2nd grade level work may or may not actually put him "on grade level" if, for example, the parent is reading much more aloud and is sitting with the child to show the child where each blank is on the page, or is scribing everything for the child. In a school setting, there is going to be documentation of the child's performance AND of any accommodations it's taking, whether they're on an IEP or done through RTI. I can see why a psychiatrist might keep circling back to this point to get more information from a homeschooler.

 

 

And having sat at Park day and heard a parent proudly stating that her 4th grader has finished Explode the Code book 4, so is "ahead of grade level", I can also see why a psychiatrist might want specifics.

 

:iagree: This has been our experience with neuropsych, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. In our case they all fully supported homeschooling for each child once they had the big picture.

[Nestof3]

That is the main reason I haven't even started looking for a child psychologist for my boys. I feel like making an appointment and saying first off, "If you have any problems with me homeschooling my boys, this isn't going to work. If I am expected to trust that you know what you are doing in the field of psychology, then I expect the same from you in this matter."

 

For the most part, I still cringe when people start to ask questions about my homeschooling. This is my 13th year doing it. They are just so ignorant. Standard questions:

 

1. What do they do for socialization? Don't even get me started.

 

2. Do they play any sports? (Of course they mean team sports. Since when did sports become so important to the development of a person? Yeah, because every important figure throughout history played sports!)

 

3. Do you have any special training? Do you have a teaching degree? It's hilarious how little the population even knows about a teaching degree and what that schooling even teaches.

 

***************************

 

And, yes, I agree that the questions the doctor was asking are perfectly legitimate, but I get tones, looks and questions of disapproval from our pediatrician group. I get them from most people, so I don't expect our doctors to be any different. And -- they aren't.

Edited October 6, 2012 by nestof3

[wapiti]

Another part of the grade level question might be "What is it taking to KEEP him on grade level?". A lot of homeschooling parents are doing pretty extensive accommodations and adaptations that end up masking what, in the school setting, would be seen as a fairly serious learning/behavioral issue

 

:iagree: :iagree:Indeed, this may be the case here:

 

 

He requires more one-on-one time than I would expect most children his age, but I am able to provide that for him

 

This is an example of an accommodation. It seems to me that proper diagnosis would include considering all angles of the academic situation, and at this point I'd be asking the psych to do the IQ and achievement testing.

 

It's fantastic that you've been able to keep him on track with your great efforts to accommodate him at home. Getting a proper diagnosis of his issues is likely to help both of you in the long run. Not only should that include testing, but a description of your efforts to keep him on track. There's no reason to feel defensive about that - you've done a great job but I imagine the psych wants a particular description of the accommodations you have made.

 

I explained that he would be in 1st grade if I had sent him to public/private school, but that at home he was doing well with 2nd grade curriculum. That didn't seem to make her less concerned

 

Note that learning issues are common amongst bright kids - 2E, twice exceptional - you want to know if he's performing according to his ability.

Edited October 6, 2012 by wapiti

[Rosy]

I would put it back on her: "Which of the state standards are you concerned about? He can read books like __________, he's working on __________ skills in math, etc.". Or I would say that he's moving at a pace that is comfortable and challenging, but we are using a different scope and sequence than the schools. I might even ask, "What kind of answer would satisfy you?" I'm with Jean about finding out where she's coming from--I understand her need to get a picture of his ability levels and how he's being educated. OTOH, if she's just anti-homeschooling and refuses to be open-minded, you need a new doc.