WWYT if your son said this to you?

[Just Kate]

A tiny bit of background...DS8 is typically a great kid. There are truly many positive things I can (and do!) say about him. However, he has always been very intense. He angers easily and does not like to be told what to do. He enjoys playing alone and often gets upset if anyone gets in his way. Lately these behaviors have gotten a lot worse. As an example, today he was at my parents house (my mom often babysits while I work) and my mom and dd were playing a board game in the dining room while ds watched tv in another room. Now the dining room is the room that ds has claimed as "his" at his grandparents house and he often plays with his toys in there. When he was finished with his show and he realized that his grandma and sister were in "his" room, he yelled at them to "get out NOW!!!" His response to being told what to do is to yell, growl, stomp or whine. It is getting out of control.

 

So tonight during bed time, I sat down on his bed and tried to talk with him a little bit about his behavior. I truly feel that he wants to behave and that he doesn't want to act angry all the time. I was trying to figure out why he always shouts, stomps, growls, etc. when something doesn't go his way (and this happens many, many times a day). This is what he said to me...

 

"There is something inside me that makes me want to do something bad to (my sister, my grandma, etc.). It hasn't happened for about a week now, but it usually happens every few days. It is inside me and it covers up the good part of my heart. It makes me wish I didn't even have a (sister, grandma, etc.)."

 

He seemed very remorseful when telling me this. He said that he hates the yucky feeling that he gets and that he wants it to go away.

 

After going to bed, he got back up and came to me to "confess" some recent lies that he has told me...1. Even when he says he isn't hitting his sister, he usually is. 2. Most of the time when he says he's sorry, he's really not sorry (he just doesn't want to get in trouble). He *wants* to be sorry though. 3. He handed me his ipod touch and said that he has been hiding and using it at night time. He told me he shouldn't have it in his room any more.

 

I just don't know what to think about this. As I mentioned earlier, he can be a great kid! But it seems like he goes in cycles where his behavior is just awful (we are there now). And I am just so embarrassed by how he treats my mom. He is very close to my parents, as we actually lived with them for 18 months and my mom has babysat him regularly since. But he is quite mean to her (for no good reason...she treats my kids so well). And the regular back talk from him...it is just so out of control. He complains about anything and everything that he is asked to do. It is exhausting.

 

If you have read this far, thank you. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[kalanamak]

I would seek professional help. I don't say that to every Sarah, Jane, and Jill, but he is suffering, and certainly has the capacity to talk to someone about it.

 

:grouphug:

[Ottakee]

Sounds like it might be time for some outside help and an evaluation.

 

I am not saying this is what you are dealing with but my daughter at age 5 was begging me to help her with her fighting (and that was the least of our worries). She has early onset bipolar and hated the way the mood swings made her feel. Her moods would change rapidly and we had a lot of irritability. Now she is much older and on the correct meds and she is my "easy" child.

[OrganicAnn]

Ditto - get some evaluations. See what a professional makes of it. You need to understand what is going on before you can decide what to do.

[HeidiKC]

I don't have any advice, but here is a :grouphug:

 

He does seem like a great kid, and I am very impressed that he turned in the iPod, confessed to all that stuff! and sounds like he has a good heart. Sounds like he struggles with being "good", just like many of us do. I can relate! I do think maybe some outside help for helping him deal with controlling his emotions would be a good idea. I'm guessing it will really help since he wants to be good!

[Ottakee]

I would start trying to keep a simple daily log of his behavior, mood, sleep habits, any outside activites, diet, etc. You might find over time that every time he eats ............he struggles more or if he misses a meal/eats later, he has a problem. You might see cycles in his behavior or other patterns.

 

This is helpful as there can be so many causes for behavioral issues---anything from medical issues, food allergies/intolerances, mental health concerns, aspergers/gifted/other learning needs, etc. The more information you have, the easier it is to know what to look at.

[AmyontheFarm]

I have to agree. That's a lot of dark feelings for an 8 year old boy who seems to want some help. Call your GP and make an appoint for just you to go in and talk with them. Tell them what is going on and get the ball rolling. He's half way to being 16 and that can be a difficult time with raising an easy going 8 year old. There is no shame in asking for help, only remorse when years later you realize that you could have made that call.

[happi duck]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Farrar]

I agree that professional help would probably be useful.

 

But I also want to say that it's completely normal for kids this age to struggle with empathy, to be intense like that, to lie... So I don't think you should completely freak out.

[justLisa]

I would seek professional help. I don't say that to every Sarah, Jane, and Jill, but he is suffering, and certainly has the capacity to talk to someone about it.

 

:grouphug:

 

THIS. I'm kind of sad reading that. He sounds like a great kid with some feelings he doesn't know what to do with. And he feels bad when he does wrong. :grouphug:

 

I wish I had advice.

[8circles]

I would seek professional help. I don't say that to every Sarah, Jane, and Jill, but he is suffering, and certainly has the capacity to talk to someone about it.

 

:grouphug:

 

This. I've posted about my son before. I know how you feel. You can handle this.

[Anne in CA]

Please read the book, Living With Intensity. Children with unusual intensity often do things that are hard to understand, show tremendous insight at times, and sometimes do things that seem pathological to people who don't know them. From this limited post I would say that you need to read this book. Also, if you decide to get a professional evaluation please make sure that you get one who has experience with highly intelligent children.

[Just Kate]

I agree that professional help would probably be useful.

 

But I also want to say that it's completely normal for kids this age to struggle with empathy, to be intense like that, to lie... So I don't think you should completely freak out.

 

I guess I am freaking out a little. I have called ds intense since birth! As a newborn, he wouldn't sleep. He also refused to drink from a bottle (I nursed him). No big deal for most kids, but I worked full time and he refused food until I was there to feed him! He has gone through cycles where his behavior is out of control, and then it seems okay again. As a matter of fact, two years ago I met talked with our ped about ds and his "quirky" behavior. Our ped recommended me to a group 3 hours away and I waited months to hear from this group. After doing an over-the-phone evaluation, we decided that ds didn't even meet the requirements for their therapy. Also, by that time ds had "cycled" again and his behavior seemed okay.

 

So, do I just talk to our ped again? What kind of professional help am I looking for? I don't really love our ped, but haven't found time to look for one that I do. He will likely give me a referral if I ask though.

 

I started a thread the other day about food sensitivities. This is something I have always wondered about. Also, lack of sleep may be a problem. I did let ds stay up to watch the Olympics and we have had trouble getting back on track.

 

Thanks for helping me to think through this.

Edited August 15, 2012 by mandos mom

[sbgrace]

Did he tell you what thoughts? Was he afraid to voice them?

Confession can be a kiddo feeling guilty and wanting to come clean or it could be scrupulosity type OCD perhaps. And intrusive, disturbing thoughts can certainly be OCD too. It may be intense personality/feelings all by itself. But I wanted to mention OCD as a possibility.

[8circles]

In our similar case we talked to the ped who asked a bunch of questions to rule-out physical problems. Then he recommended we see a psychologist.

Edited August 15, 2012 by momoflaw

[MomatHWTK]

Our experience has been that the onset of adolescence takes quirky or intense into a new level that may be hard for the child to manage. Our professionals have had no difficulty recognizing DS' intelligence. But EQ is a very different beast to manage.

[Just Kate]

Our experience has been that the onset of adolescence takes quirky or intense into a new level that may be hard for the child to manage. Our professionals have had no difficulty recognizing DS' intelligence. But EQ is a very different beast to manage.

 

EQ?

[8circles]

EQ?

 

Emotional intelligence

[Little Nyssa]

:grouphug:

[Incognito]

I mentioned my DS has dairy issues on the other thread and although he is younger I can easily see him saying that in a few years. He says some things like that to me now. It surprises me a bit that people find it that concerning. Don't we all sometimes get angry with people we love and have to control our anger impulses? I hear your DS trying to say that - seems like brilliant understanding of the complexity of his own emotions, IMO.

 

I find his outbursts to your mom more concerning than anything he said. How does your mom behave/does he act this way for others as much too? I once minded a 7yo who wanted me to do things I refused to do. He acted a bit like that for the first few weeks and I thought maybe he had issues, BUT when I consistently didn't give him the attention he was used to getting for his outbursts he quit trying them on me.

 

FWIW most people don't know how volatile my DS is - I keep him under control or get him to calm down and out of a situation before he gets to that boiling point. BUT when he's eating dairy it becomes very hard because the window to intervene gets too small and he just seems bent on trouble (and also FWIW the dairy seems to tie into him not sleeping well, so it might be poor behavior and impulse control from lack of sleep ... but the lack of sleep is because of the dairy).

 

So I'd try to sort out if this is truly something he can't control or if it is something he isn't controlling, and I'd look into food stuff too. This could be done in conjunction with professional assitance if you think it's warranted.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Tjej

[mommybee]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

Edited August 17, 2012 by mommybee

[ondreeuh]

I wonder if it could be some issue with impulse control ... my 4 year old has episodes of awful behavior pretty much every day and he tells me his brain is bad and makes him do bad things he doesn't want to do. He yells to himself that he's "a freaking idiot," stupid, and a bad boy. In his case, I am pretty sure it is impulsiveness due to ADHD coupled with a short fuse. I'm going to ask for a referral to a child psych soon.

[kolamum]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Yes, I'd get professional help, but I'd also consider a MAJOR diet change for him. It's amazing how much that can HELP, not cure, but help!

[jennynd]

 

...

 

"There is something inside me that makes me want to do something bad to (my sister, my grandma, etc.). It hasn't happened for about a week now, but it usually happens every few days. It is inside me and it covers up the good part of my heart. It makes me wish I didn't even have a (sister, grandma, etc.)."

.

this will really worries me. I will also agree seeking outside help. And I will not leave the 2 kids together by themselves. And give your boy some extra hugs and kisses.

[Trish]

Professional help? Well maybe it's worse than what you described. It sounds 8-year-oldish to me. And as far as treating Grandma poorly, if she is a regular caregiver, how does she handle the discipline? Generally when we deal with rudeness/disrespect around here, an apology is required, and sometimes the offender gets sent to his room (eh, not the "dining room" in this case) to think about things.

 

Does normal discipline not work with him? Does it escalate his bad behavior? Based on what you described, professional help is pretty far down on the list of what I would try. Unless there is more to it than the original post.

[bettyandbob]

I have a child who was always intense about everything from birth. You need to get outside help. I would suggest getting an outside evaluation at a children's hospital. Such an evaluation will test psychological, emotional, intellectual and physical measures. We did this at age 7. It was worth every penny to have such a comprehensive report to refer back to many times over the years. The evaluations in all took a couple of full days.

 

Schedule the appointment now. It will take months to get the appointment unless someone cancels. While you are waiting keep a diary of daily food and daily behavior. Besides food, note environments where negative behavior occurs. For instance, does ds usually play nice with neighbor child, but then always falls apart in their living room (where they happen to keep a pet guinea pig). Stuff you never noticed will pop out in such a journal. Finding these things will make your life easier because without testing you can start to see what ds is may be allergic or sensitive to and plan around it.

 

After doing the journal for about a month and eliminating some of his triggers set up an elimination diet and keep documenting in your journal. Look at the book Is this your child by Doris Rapp MD. It is 20 years old, but it is relevant. It explains environmental factors affecting some children.

 

If you are up to and have the money, I think it is also worth it to get an additional evaluation by a naturpathic physician or similar professional. I find they have a bit more insight into environmental factors than you will get at the children's hospital. I found the advice I got from these professionals did not conflict with what I got from the children's hospital. It just added to the big picture of what my child needed and helped.

 

I suspect reading these responses, you are looking at a big scary unknown. We put a lot of resources (financial, emotional) into our intense child. More than the other children in our family, but honestly he needed them. So, far the outcome is good--he started college last week.

[Just Kate]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Yes, I'd get professional help, but I'd also consider a MAJOR diet change for him. It's amazing how much that can HELP, not cure, but help!

 

I started this thread about my concerns about food sensitivities. In post 29 I listed out his normal diet. Would love your thoughts...as I am not sure how major of a change I need.

[Just Kate]

Professional help? Well maybe it's worse than what you described. It sounds 8-year-oldish to me. And as far as treating Grandma poorly, if she is a regular caregiver, how does she handle the discipline? Generally when we deal with rudeness/disrespect around here, an apology is required, and sometimes the offender gets sent to his room (eh, not the "dining room" in this case) to think about things.

 

Does normal discipline not work with him? Does it escalate his bad behavior? Based on what you described, professional help is pretty far down on the list of what I would try. Unless there is more to it than the original post.

 

Grandma is a normal care giver and has been a big part of my dc's lives. (I have joked that she is their second mother). Normal discipline doesn't usually work very well with him. He is that kid that when sent to his room will cry (and not a soft, quiet cry) and go on and on the whole time he is there.

[Just Kate]

I have a child who was always intense about everything from birth. You need to get outside help. I would suggest getting an outside evaluation at a children's hospital. Such an evaluation will test psychological, emotional, intellectual and physical measures. We did this at age 7. It was worth every penny to have such a comprehensive report to refer back to many times over the years. The evaluations in all took a couple of full days.

 

Schedule the appointment now. It will take months to get the appointment unless someone cancels. While you are waiting keep a diary of daily food and daily behavior. Besides food, note environments where negative behavior occurs. For instance, does ds usually play nice with neighbor child, but then always falls apart in their living room (where they happen to keep a pet guinea pig). Stuff you never noticed will pop out in such a journal. Finding these things will make your life easier because without testing you can start to see what ds is may be allergic or sensitive to and plan around it.

 

After doing the journal for about a month and eliminating some of his triggers set up an elimination diet and keep documenting in your journal. Look at the book Is this your child by Doris Rapp MD. It is 20 years old, but it is relevant. It explains environmental factors affecting some children.

 

If you are up to and have the money, I think it is also worth it to get an additional evaluation by a naturpathic physician or similar professional. I find they have a bit more insight into environmental factors than you will get at the children's hospital. I found the advice I got from these professionals did not conflict with what I got from the children's hospital. It just added to the big picture of what my child needed and helped.

 

I suspect reading these responses, you are looking at a big scary unknown. We put a lot of resources (financial, emotional) into our intense child. More than the other children in our family, but honestly he needed them. So, far the outcome is good--he started college last week.

 

I appreciate your post. I think your ideas are great...I just don't know how to start the process. Do I call his pediatrician? Unfortunately I live in WV and there aren't nearly as many resources here as there are in other states.

[Just Kate]

Well I'll be the oddball here and say it doesn't sound that serious to me. I have 2 intense boys. The older boy has made similar comments. He has never acted on them and I have never wondered if he would. When he says stuff like that I try to talk to him about it and help him sort through those thoughts. There is a difference between thoughts and acting on them.

 

I have "thoughts". I just know better that it will freak people out if I tell them all of my thoughts. But at this point I want my kids to feel safe to tell me thoughts that scare or confuse them.

 

FWIW I have talked to the Ped about various things that I wondered about with my kids. He never seems concerned about it.

 

Thank you for your thoughts, Wendy. I agree with you about the "thoughts". There are times when I get frustrated and have thoughts too. I just wish I knew if, for ds, this is normal or not. I also wish that I had more faith in our ped. I honestly don't care for him much. If you have time, I would love to hear more about how you have parented your intense boys. I am overwhelmed here.

[8circles]

Well I'll be the oddball here and say it doesn't sound that serious to me. I have 2 intense boys. The older boy has made similar comments. He has never acted on them and I have never wondered if he would. When he says stuff like that I try to talk to him about it and help him sort through those thoughts. There is a difference between thoughts and acting on them.

 

I have "thoughts". I just know better that it will freak people out if I tell them all of my thoughts. But at this point I want my kids to feel safe to tell me thoughts that scare or confuse them.

 

FWIW I have talked to the Ped about various things that I wondered about with my kids. He never seems concerned about it.

 

I agree with Wendy too. There isn't anything wrong with my child who sees a psychologist. He is normal, his thoughts are normal. Problem is, I don't know how to help him manage his thoughts. The chances of him continuing to grow normally are reduced if he doesn't learn how to manage his thoughts.

 

Oh, & I echo the advice about dietary changes. For us, gluten is a major trigger.

[bettyandbob]

I appreciate your post. I think your ideas are great...I just don't know how to start the process. Do I call his pediatrician? Unfortunately I live in WV and there aren't nearly as many resources here as there are in other states.

 

 

what resources are in the nearest city and how far is the nearest "big" city?

 

If you are pretty remote, start with the food, environment and behavior diary. Read is this your child and set up an elimination diet as in the book. Be strict with your data keeping. After you have a couple months of data go back to your pediatrician. He may say all is well. Sometimes they say that and all is well. If your gut says there's more keep digging on your own.

 

Even if you have found no allergies or sensitivities clean up your diet--eliminate artificial colors, flavors and dyes. The feingold diet can be a resource on how to do this. You do not need to go organic to do this. You do need to read labels. Your produce will more likely need to be fresh or frozen, not canned and you will need to cook from scratch more. If you buy snack foods you would need to look for things like corn or potato chips that have 3 ingredients (corn, oil, salt) rather than the cheese cracker with 50 ingredients.

 

Digging on your own will take you in many directions before you can narrow it down. Some of the things you've said sound like impulse issues related to ADD/ADHD, some could be a nonverbal learning disorder, sensory integration, anxiety. These are some areas to research.

 

Is your son intellectually gifted? Consider looking at twice exceptional boards here and elsewhere. People on the boards may help you narrow down the possibilities and help you track down a professional within reasonable driving distance.

[laundrycrisis]

"There is something inside me that makes me want to do something bad to (my sister, my grandma, etc.). It hasn't happened for about a week now, but it usually happens every few days. It is inside me and it covers up the good part of my heart. It makes me wish I didn't even have a (sister, grandma, etc.)."

 

He seemed very remorseful when telling me this. He said that he hates the yucky feeling that he gets and that he wants it to go away.

 

 

 

I would look for a child psychology practice that offers things like social skills groups for young kids. Our DS2 took a very small social skill class for young kids. It turned out to be 3 very bright, intense young boys. The doctor taught many things, but one was self control which she called "personal power", and thinking vs acting, and how to think about doing something before you do it. Everyone has thoughts that are negative and angry sometimes, and impulses that aren't acceptable to act on. With intense young kids, the process of sorting through their impulses is not automatic and they have to think through most of them, decide what is okay or not okay, and use their "personal power" for self control. For some kids this maturity comes later than normal, and for some kids, they do not ever get to understand this unless it is explicitly taught in a very clear way. This way of taking the process apart and looking at it has been very helpful for him. Whether it is taught in a class or through individual sessions, I would look for a professional who can help him with this approach. Our son feels much more empowered now. His behavior is much better and he feels better about himself. He knows he's not an awful person for having angry thoughts and impulses, and he has a way to be in control, so his behavior is not at the mercy of his feelings - he can choose.

[Danestress]

I would also just mention that he might need a lot of "Dad time." Has his Dad been involved in these talks about his feelings? Is he needing a bit more time with guys? It sounds like he spends a fair amount of time with three generations of females.

 

I would also be looking into dietary causes and seeking professional help as needed. But the above did also strike me.

[Just Kate]

 

 

what resources are in the nearest city and how far is the nearest "big" city?

 

If you are pretty remote, start with the food, environment and behavior diary. Read is this your child and set up an elimination diet as in the book. Be strict with your data keeping. After you have a couple months of data go back to your pediatrician. He may say all is well. Sometimes they say that and all is well. If your gut says there's more keep digging on your own.

 

Even if you have found no allergies or sensitivities clean up your diet--eliminate artificial colors, flavors and dyes. The feingold diet can be a resource on how to do this. You do not need to go organic to do this. You do need to read labels. Your produce will more likely need to be fresh or frozen, not canned and you will need to cook from scratch more. If you buy snack foods you would need to look for things like corn or potato chips that have 3 ingredients (corn, oil, salt) rather than the cheese cracker with 50 ingredients.

 

Digging on your own will take you in many directions before you can narrow it down. Some of the things you've said sound like impulse issues related to ADD/ADHD, some could be a nonverbal learning disorder, sensory integration, anxiety. These are some areas to research.

 

Is your son intellectually gifted? Consider looking at twice exceptional boards here and elsewhere. People on the boards may help you narrow down the possibilities and help you track down a professional within reasonable driving distance.

 

We are only 30 minutes from the state capital, but trust me when I say that the resources here are limited!

 

I have put Is This Your Child on hold at our library. I should have it in a few days. In the meantime I am going to start a journal listing foods/behavior/sleep patterns/etc.

 

I have looked at ADD/ADHD assessments online before and ds doesn't seem to fit the criteria (what do I know though?). I have considered sensory disorders and even anxiety. My problem is that there is so much information out there and I don't even know how to begin going through it all

 

As far as being intellectually gifted, I have no idea. He is at grade level with math and other subjects. He seems to "get" new material quickly. I don't know about being gifted though.

[Just Kate]

I would also just mention that he might need a lot of "Dad time." Has his Dad been involved in these talks about his feelings? Is he needing a bit more time with guys? It sounds like he spends a fair amount of time with three generations of females.

 

I would also be looking into dietary causes and seeking professional help as needed. But the above did also strike me.

 

Well, funny you should mention "dad time". Dh started working at a new job a year ago that takes him out of town on a regular basis. Right now he is gone for 15 days and home for 6 days. I know many will think that this is the cause of the problem, but ds has been having similar issues for way longer than dh has had the work schedule. However, I do know that the lack of "dad time" is probably a contributing factor. Oh, and did I mention that ds is starting school for the first time in less than two weeks? This probably isn't helping either.

[Incognito]

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Romans 7:15 (and continuing or previous verses, 7:19 says it perhaps even clearer)

 

I had a thought on this upon awakening this morning. I don't know if you read the Bible as a part of your faith or not, but even if you don't, you could point your son to this as an example that people long ago had the same struggles.

 

And I forgot to mention in my other post that I would hug my son and shower him with kisses and pat myself on the back that my son had felt remorse for sneaking and was honest with me about it and about tough feelings. :) Good Job on that, Mom!

[Just Kate]

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Romans 7:15 (and continuing or previous verses, 7:19 says it perhaps even clearer)

 

I had a thought on this upon awakening this morning. I don't know if you read the Bible as a part of your faith or not, but even if you don't, you could point your son to this as an example that people long ago had the same struggles.

 

And I forgot to mention in my other post that I would hug my son and shower him with kisses and pat myself on the back that my son had felt remorse for sneaking and was honest with me about it and about tough feelings. :) Good Job on that, Mom!

 

We are Christians and we do read the Bible. Thank you for that verse and the thought to share it with him.

 

Ds is very remorseful for his behavior. He has always struggled with wanting to be "good" (and I hope and pray that I don't make this worse for him!). I will definitely spend some time loving on him. :)

[*********]

Professional help? Well maybe it's worse than what you described. It sounds 8-year-oldish to me. And as far as treating Grandma poorly, if she is a regular caregiver, how does she handle the discipline? Generally when we deal with rudeness/disrespect around here, an apology is required, and sometimes the offender gets sent to his room (eh, not the "dining room" in this case) to think about things.

 

Does normal discipline not work with him? Does it escalate his bad behavior? Based on what you described, professional help is pretty far down on the list of what I would try. Unless there is more to it than the original post.

 

Grandma is a normal care giver and has been a big part of my dc's lives. (I have joked that she is their second mother). Normal discipline doesn't usually work very well with him. He is that kid that when sent to his room will cry (and not a soft, quiet cry) and go on and on the whole time he is there.

 

Well, then IMO, he needs consequences for 'going on and on the whole time he's there'.

 

Look, I realize this isn't a popular opinion on this board. But you need to train your boy to have self discipline. I see that you are Christians; read scripture with him about self discipline. Help him develop that in himself by disciplining him when he's out of line; consistently.

 

He doesn't need professional help. He needs YOUR help. This is what parents are for; to train our children.

 

For example, if he yells at his grandma to get out of the dining room (her own house!), then he needs some swift consequences. In my family, that would mean that the dining room was no longer 'his'. Plus he'd be apologizing (when he was able to do it SINCERELY) for trying to boss grandma.

 

He needs to learn his place in the family. He needs you to teach him, with love, what his place is. And his place is *not* as the boss. And your mother should be involved as well.

 

Just my opinion, I know it's not everyone's cuppa.

[kalanamak]

 

He doesn't need professional help. He needs YOUR help. This is what parents are for; to train our children.

 

It is hard to tell this from one post, but I will say what the child is saying the kind of things I have heard from parents of teens and young adults who are mental patients. Given the evidence that starting help sooner rather than later may prevent deterioration, an evaluation by a profession is not unreasonable.

 

Again, I don't even take my healthy boy in for annual physicals, don't go in for mammos or paps or cholesterol checks myself, send hubby in once every 10 years for cholesterol check, so I'm not "referral happy". I would take this child in.

[Trish]

I think this kid is just better able (or willing) to express what a lot of kids feel. And it sounds like he's been getting away with some stuff that he probably shouldn't be, discipline-wise. I really don't get a deep dark undertone to this. Not that there's anything wrong with seeking professional help anyway.

 

:grouphug:

[1GirlTwinBoys]

It doesn't sound like your son needs professional help IMO. I think it's great that he feels comfortable enough to come to you with honesty and how he is feeling about certain things. I don't know your situation, but it sounds like your son is NOT being made to respect his grandmother. If any of my children yelled at my mom, or spoke to her in a disrespectful way, there would be MAJOR consequences for that. That's something that needs to be taught and made clear at a very young age. I also think that your DH needs to step in and make this very clear to him now.

 

Also, since you're a Christian, can you just maybe explain the bad thoughts as Satan trying to put bad thoughts in his head and it happens to all of us???

 

If he was actually trying to hurt someone or animals, then I would say get him some professional help now.

 

He really sounds like a good, normal little boy that just hasn't got enough discipline in a certain area maybe...

 

:grouphug:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I agree with most of what the others are saying. However, I'd start right now with an elimination diet. I wouldn't even bother talking to the ped about it. IME, most mainstream doctors don't know or understand or believe much about food sensitivities. Allergies, they know. Allergies are easy to see. Sensitivities start to fall into "all in your head" territory, IMO.

 

I would start keeping the food journal, just like Betty described. And if you don't already eat this way, I would go completely natural with his food--no artificial colors or flavors, no caramel coloring, no MSG (this includes "natural flavors," hydrolyzed anything extract, etc.), no nitrites or nitrates, etc. Don't trust the front labels--they're often deceptive or inaccurate. Scrutinize the ingredients on everything he eats or make it yourself. Give this 3-4 weeks and journal it all.

 

If his behavior improves, then you know what you need to do from there. Eliminating additives is the easy part.

 

If his behavior doesn't improve, pick the next major thing and eliminate that. The big ones are soy, gluten, dairy, and corn. IMO, corn and gluten are the easier ones. Gluten sounds hard, but there are lots of alternative carbs out there--potatoes, rice, alternative flours, etc. If you cook at home a lot, corn is easy to avoid.

 

And then you keep journaling and keep going down the list if you have to.

 

Personally, I would (and did) do this before looking for an evaluation. Some of the things you've described sound a lot like my youngest at her worst. She was also one who would take herself to her room and carry on the whole time. I don't think there's any harm in looking for an eval at the same time, though. I wouldn't medicate in any way until I tried everything I could diet-wise though (not that anyone would want to medicate right away, but you just never know).

 

I'm sorry. I know it's hard and overwhelming. I suspected food dye issues for my youngest for 6-9 months before everything finally clicked into place. When I thought about dietary issues being a possible cause of her behavior, I just got so overwhelmed that I couldn't even think about it and put it out of my head. It wasn't until I read the article about red 40 specifically that I realized I could just pick one thing and start there. Even then, it took a little time for me to realize that while red is bad, yellow is 1000x worse.

 

:grouphug: I know the feeling you feel in your heart and gut. I know it. I can still feel the fear and despair I felt when I finally decided that something was not right with her, that she wasn't just in her "terrible 3s" or miserable 4s or needing more sleep or having a low blood sugar or... I hope you can help him, in whatever way is necessary. :grouphug:

 

ETA: One last thing. You may think you are on top of everything he eats, and it's possible you are right. But you would be surprised how little things sneak in, especially if he's being cared for by someone else part of the time. This is why the food journal is key. You also have to get your mom on board with this if you do it. IME, it's hard from grandmas to not give treats, even when they KNOW the reason why and they believe in the reason. For example, I recently found out that my mom was letting the kids have maraschino cherries when they stay at her house. Because apparently, two kinds of ice cream, chocolate sauce, and whipped cream are not enough of a treat :banghead:

Edited August 15, 2012 by Sweet Morning Air

[justamouse]

It is hard to tell this from one post, but I will say what the child is saying the kind of things I have heard from parents of teens and young adults who are mental patients. Given the evidence that starting help sooner rather than later may prevent deterioration, an evaluation by a profession is not unreasonable.

 

Again, I don't even take my healthy boy in for annual physicals, don't go in for mammos or paps or cholesterol checks myself, send hubby in once every 10 years for cholesterol check, so I'm not "referral happy". I would take this child in.

 

:iagree:

 

Not to mention, you have nothing to lose by going for an evaluation. You do have something to lose if you don't.

[PeacefulChaos]

I agree that professional help would probably be useful.

But I also want to say that it's completely normal for kids this age to struggle with empathy, to be intense like that, to lie... So I don't think you should completely freak out.

:iagree:

Professional help? Well maybe it's worse than what you described. It sounds 8-year-oldish to me. And as far as treating Grandma poorly, if she is a regular caregiver, how does she handle the discipline? Generally when we deal with rudeness/disrespect around here, an apology is required, and sometimes the offender gets sent to his room (eh, not the "dining room" in this case) to think about things.

 

Does normal discipline not work with him? Does it escalate his bad behavior? Based on what you described, professional help is pretty far down on the list of what I would try. Unless there is more to it than the original post.

I agree with this post as well. My 8yo is a rather intense kid, as well. ;) I'm thinking as I'm reading it about what he says regarding being mad at people - I have to wonder what does it make him want to do? Hit them? Yell at them? Because neither of those are a really big deal once he can learn to control himself. Now, if it's going deeper and darker than that, it's different, kwim?

I don't necessarily see any problem with getting an eval or something. But I think that really you should go with your gut on that. Only you know what you would feel comfortable with. :)

[lauranc]

Well, then IMO, he needs consequences for 'going on and on the whole time he's there'.

 

Look, I realize this isn't a popular opinion on this board. But you need to train your boy to have self discipline. I see that you are Christians; read scripture with him about self discipline. Help him develop that in himself by disciplining him when he's out of line; consistently.

 

He doesn't need professional help. He needs YOUR help. This is what parents are for; to train our children.

 

For example, if he yells at his grandma to get out of the dining room (her own house!), then he needs some swift consequences. In my family, that would mean that the dining room was no longer 'his'. Plus he'd be apologizing (when he was able to do it SINCERELY) for trying to boss grandma.

 

He needs to learn his place in the family. He needs you to teach him, with love, what his place is. And his place is *not* as the boss. And your mother should be involved as well.

 

Just my opinion, I know it's not everyone's cuppa.

 

Problem with this is that not *all* children respond in the same way to this kind of thing. It takes a sensitive, patient parent to work with kids with strong wills. The old 'show 'em whose boss' just doesn't work.

 

There's nothing wrong with letting the kid know bossing grandma around isn't ok (and why), and that 'his' room just isn't really 'his' (he's welcome to use it, but not ok to try and force people out of it)--- but honestly, 'learning his place in the family' isn't what's going to really help a kid like this.

 

To the OP: I've got an intense child. He's struggled his whole life with a will of steel and an intensity that requires endless patience. He used to tell me things he 'thought' about too. He's sensitive that way.

 

It's been really difficult but with direction, patience, and a whole lot of trying to understand and help meet his needs (and teaching him to get his own needs met) he's turned into a teenager who shares with me, thinks about other people, speaks his mind, and doesn't follow the crowd.

 

I believe in the idea that we need these kinds of kids. They are the ones who will change the world-- for good-- if we take the time to direct their intensity and really try to work with them not against them.

[deacongirl]

Please read the book, Living With Intensity. Children with unusual intensity often do things that are hard to understand, show tremendous insight at times, and sometimes do things that seem pathological to people who don't know them. From this limited post I would say that you need to read this book. Also, if you decide to get a professional evaluation please make sure that you get one who has experience with highly intelligent children.

 

I strongly agree with this.

[Lady Florida.]

I have looked at ADD/ADHD assessments online before and ds doesn't seem to fit the criteria (what do I know though?). I have considered sensory disorders and even anxiety. My problem is that there is so much information out there and I don't even know how to begin going through it all

 

 

 

It doesn't sound like ADHD from what you describe, but that doesn't mean there isn't something going on. I would start by talking with his pediatrician. He or she can then refer you to a specialist if necessary.

 

My son was diagnosed with ADHD at age 5. Yes, 5. It was obvious that his behaviors were more than just "he's a boy" or "he's five". One day when he was nearly kicked out of an activity he told me, "I try to behave and do what's right but my body just won't let me." He didn't know it, but he was describing his impulse control issues. That statement broke my heart because I could imagine how difficult it must have been for him to always get in trouble when he was trying not to. Perhaps your son is describing something to you, even though you don't yet know what it is.

 

:iagree:

 

Not to mention, you have nothing to lose by going for an evaluation. You do have something to lose if you don't.

 

It can't hurt. It can help. Maybe it will be nothing and then you can breathe easy and work on helping him learn to control himself. If it isn't "nothing", then early intervention is the best thing you can do for him.

[Guest submarines]

He sounds like a great, very aware kid. :grouphug: He sounds a lot like DD, now 10. I was close to medicating her, after CBT was a total failure.

 

I'd try a GF diet first. It took me years of "thinking about it" with DD, and I regret not doing it sooner. It made a huge difference.

 

ETA: this might sound like over simplifying the issues, but really, it was like a miracle for us, even DD admits it.

Edited August 15, 2012 by sunflowers

[PeacefulChaos]

Hey, not to hijack, but is there another book like Living with Intensity that isn't geared toward just gifted kids? (I'm asking this for myself - I thought it looked interesting but I don't consider any of my children to fall under that 'gifted' category. They're just normal. :D )

Thanks.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled conversation... :)