About to give up, Please encourage me or be honest...

[honeymommy4]

Will they play games with you? If you set up the table with playdough and playdough tools will they play with it? What about a table set up with different types of paper and paints? Will they cook\bake with you?

 

I'm hearing you say that they won't voluntarily "go play", but if you engage in something with them or set something up and hover\conversate\participate will they participate?

 

 

they wil paint for 5 mins.

my 2nd or 3rd child will cook/bake. My oldest does not enjoy that either. he likes to draw the same character over and over: right now it is Captain America, and write in his notebook.

 

I have taken all of this to heart. I think the real issue is I just need to enforce the routine and get on wiht it. you either comply or you get left behind so to speak. but the work will get done. i don't think it is a matter of changing their mindset I have tried that road before. thanks so much everyone for your input. I appreciate all the comments!!! lots of good ideas!

[TKDmom]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I agree with pp who said to focus on your 8yo, give yourself a break, and start some habit training. I've been reading CM lately, and I just love her ideas about raising and educating children. I just took almost 3 months off while I had mono, and now I've put my youngest in preschool so that I can focus on getting my older two kids back in the habit of school during the mornings (without a whirlwind toddler). I'm not saying that's the right solution for you, but it's what I needed to do right now.

 

:grouphug: You have a house full of littles, which makes life difficult whether or not you're homeschooling. For the last couple of weeks I had various children in various summer camps and it reminded me what ps was like. I had to drag kids out of bed, pack multiple lunch boxes, cajole children to eat breakfast before it was time to go, pick up tired kids at the end of the day, listen to grumpiness from those tired kids in the afternoons, do their chores for them because they really were too exhausted to do the chores themselves, etc, etc. they had a lot of fun at their summer camps, but now I'm grateful for the freedom that homeschooling provides.

[Mommy22alyns]

I don't know if it would be helpful, but we have a "work, then play" policy. No TV, videos, "high currency" items until work is finished for the day. I had a major attitude dd when it came to work and that policy put it all into perspective for her. If she refused to do work, no tv/pc games, no outside classes, etc until the work was done. I still try to limit to a 30-60 min screentime per day, but...only after work!

 

 

This is our policy too. I haven't had many attitude problems, but I think it's a good way to stay focused.

[ktgrok]

I don't know if what i mean is coming across right. they are low-energy. they just want to lay around. NOT bouncy or full of energy at all. not wanting to do anything. not even play with toys, etc.

 

You see we havent ben doing school since I had the baby. we are gong on vaca. next week so i was going to start school back up when we return. so they are kind of on summer break. But I was trying to come up with some activities just so I am involved in their day. They might do the things half heartedly. Am I going to punish because DS spent 5 mins. on a drawing rather than 20?

 

 

Ok, so what ARE they doing? They must be doing something. Are they watching TV? Playing quietly? Looking at books? If you tell us what they ARE doing it would help.

[stripe]

Your kids are so young. Self-starters in work? My eldest was like that in high school, but he worked 30 hours a week and homeschooled. He's graduating from college this summer, and he's needed kicks in the rear several times.

I agree with everyone who's questioned the selfstarter business, and if a 5 yo hates school, something is just wrong. I think there is way too much going on, and it's not a case where cracking down and assigning awful chores while complaining about your own life will make everyone magically perfect.

 

How about just some advice? Sometime when the kids are asleep, get you a cup of tea and go read through Charlotte Mason's comments on habit training. It sounds as if many of the difficulties you have with your school age children could be helped by habit formation.

And what's fascinating about CM is the number of people who use her name to promote behaviorism through rewards and punishment to "train" the child, when this is the opposite of her approach.

[Critterfixer]

And what's fascinating about CM is the number of people who use her name to promote behaviorism through rewards and punishment to "train" the child, when this is the opposite of her approach.

:iagree:

 

Which is why I suggested to the OP to read it for herself. Preferably the original. I don't agree with some of what she says, but the section on habit training is well worth reading and thinking about. There was a modern language version that I found off of Ambleside Online that was pretty readable.

 

 

What worries me is that the OP is saying that almost everyone is very lethargic. It just doesn't seem normal to me to have a three year old without energy. It would be interesting for the OP to post back after the vacation, to see if everyone feels a little better.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Critterfixer

[Dealea86]

Will they play games with you? If you set up the table with playdough and playdough tools will they play with it? What about a table set up with different types of paper and paints? Will they cook\bake with you?

 

I'm hearing you say that they won't voluntarily "go play", but if you engage in something with them or set something up and hover\conversate\participate will they participate?

 

IDK about the OP, but I have a child who won't do anything all day. If we start playing with playdough, she will ask me to make everything for her and just watch me do it. If we pull out the crayons and markers, she will color for about 2 minutes and then refuse to do any more - she wants me to color for her. If we pull out the blocks, she wants me to build a tower for her.

 

If I send her outside with sidewalk chalk, or water, or just to play, she's asking to come inside 5 minutes later. If I go out with her, she maybe lasts another 5 minutes.

 

If I start doing chores, she whines for me to read to her or play with her (ie play for her).

 

I've set timers for her and told her she needed to play for 10 minutes. She basically treats the 10 minutes like a time-out and sits by the door waiting for the timer to go off (asking me every few minutes how much time is left).

 

Now my DD is 3yo, not 8 or 5 like the OP's children. For all I know this could be normal behavior for a 3yo. But when she was describing how her children are all day, it sounded to me just like days at my house with DD. I can attest to having a child who hardly does a thing all day long! :)

 

(FTR, we average 1 hour or less of screen time a week and we're dairy-free and have tried gluten-free before.)

[5LittleMonkeys]

My oldest does not enjoy that either. he likes to draw the same character over and over: right now it is Captain America, and write in his notebook.

 

 

 

I would consider getting some additional evaluations and therapy with your oldest, but in the meantime set up a very structured routine for him. I don't think letting him opt out of activities and just doing what he wants is a good idea. You're giving him too much control and now he is in the habit of doing nothing. Create a daily schedule along with a list of alternatives for each activity that you feel aren't mandatory. Get him into the mindset of knowing what to expect and understanding that even if he doesn't want to do xyz then he has to do abc. If baking is on the schedule and he doesn't want to bake then he gets to clean the toilets, or wash the baseboards, or do some extra math. However, the three R's should be mandatory and he can't choose an alternative. I would offer some incentives to completing the work though. If he completes the work without complaint and in a timely manner he gets a token toward a reward at the end of the week (determine what his currency is...a small toy, time with a friend, an icecream cone, the opportunity to save tokens for a month and then get to go to a movie...)I would even structure his down time (okay, you can lay on the floor and stair at the ceiling, or draw Captain America but only from 10 to 10:30).

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I will say one more thing. I don't think putting him in ps will solve the underlying problems you are having, but if you have a good school that is able to offer you more in the way of getting your son some additional evaluations, some therapy, and some support for you then it might be what your family needs right now. It doesn't have to be forever.

[Plateau Mama]

BTW what extra chores do you assign for not complying? because when i do this i have one that does the chore half heartedly and another that gets super angry etc. i can punish for the anger but it just makes him more angry.

 

don't phrase it aspunishment. In our house if you arent going to do school you do chores. It's their choice. Learn or work. If they get angry or do a poor job I add more chores.

 

I have a jar of chore that don't regularly get done (wipe cabinets, clean sliding door, mop, etc, along with regular chores I do that they are able, vacuum, sweep, dust ). I either ave them clean for a time period or just pick a chore. If the grumble I increase the time.

 

When I first started there was lots of stomping, tears (on both sides) etc. now he rarely takes this "choice", but when he does he does it quickly w/o complaint.

[Walking-Iris]

okay the title of your thread asks for honesty----

 

You mention your child seeing "a therapist" and he hated it. Is that as far as you have gone?

 

Because honestly the listlessness, food sensitivities, the tying shoes really tight, drawing the same character over and over etc., not showing an interest in things possibly outside his interest realm....

 

Have you had your child evaluated for anything beyond OCD/ADD? Have you had a neuropsych eval, seen an occupational therapist etc.? Because those are the things you're posting that stand out for me to look into possible other issues besides discipline. The shoe tying screams sensory processing issues to me, the drawing over and over screams possible spectrum (which is unfortunately co-morbid with OCD and sensory issues a lot of the times) especially if it's done in a compulsion type way. I'm not telling you to borrow trouble. And I'm not denying that discipline is necessary. Like I said above, there's a time to put your foot down and a time to address any underlying issues.

 

Are there other signs? Poor muscle tone? Can they (your ds and dd) pedal, run, swing, climb, and generally move their body in a smooth, coordinated way? Are they "floppy" or "stiff" when you pick them up? Do they sensory seek in any way---rubbing against walls, pacing around the room, pulling on their hair, anything that seems odd that they do over and over? Or do they sensory avoid---do they refuse to paint because of the mess, are they over sensitive about water or messy activities, do they eat well, do they fuss about keeping their hands clean, or seem unaware their hands are messy?

 

Honestly---the tight shoes until there were bruises is a big one. Do they fuss about other clothing stuff---scratchy, tight, loose, uncomfortable?

[5LittleMonkeys]

IDK about the OP, but I have a child who won't do anything all day. If we start playing with playdough, she will ask me to make everything for her and just watch me do it. If we pull out the crayons and markers, she will color for about 2 minutes and then refuse to do any more - she wants me to color for her. If we pull out the blocks, she wants me to build a tower for her.

 

If I send her outside with sidewalk chalk, or water, or just to play, she's asking to come inside 5 minutes later. If I go out with her, she maybe lasts another 5 minutes.

 

If I start doing chores, she whines for me to read to her or play with her (ie play for her).

 

I've set timers for her and told her she needed to play for 10 minutes. She basically treats the 10 minutes like a time-out and sits by the door waiting for the timer to go off (asking me every few minutes how much time is left).

 

Now my DD is 3yo, not 8 or 5 like the OP's children. For all I know this could be normal behavior for a 3yo. But when she was describing how her children are all day, it sounded to me just like days at my house with DD. I can attest to having a child who hardly does a thing all day long! :)

 

(FTR, we average 1 hour or less of screen time a week and we're dairy-free and have tried gluten-free before.)

 

Yes, you just described my 3yo too. That's why I commiserate with the OP. I asked so I could get a better idea of if this is what was really going on in the OP's house or not.

 

These type of dc are so frustrating, exhausting, and have the ability to make you feel like a failure as a good parent, but it is imperative that one starts early with routines and teaching expectations and good habits so that when they are 8 they understand what is expected of them and are in the habit of cooperating...even if deep down inside they would still rather sit on the floor and bang their head against the wall.;)

[fruitofthewomb]

I think you have gotten some good advice from others who are much more wise and experienced than me-I agree with some PPs that further evaluation of your oldest 2 might be needed.

 

But...how are you? You just had a baby and you have a lot of others in the house who are little. I ask because I just had #4 and my oldest is 6. Lots of littles. I was really struggling and it trickled down to the kids. I had trouble focusing and completing tasks. Some days I would enforce rules, then the next I was just overwhelmed and would let them do whatever they wanted. I knew it was the wrong thing to do but I was just so overwhelmed with life. Went to ob/gyn who diagnosed me with post partum depression. Started medication and since then I have been able to think more clearly and life at our house is SO MUCH BETTER.

 

So I suggest taking an honest look at yourself-are you taking care of yourself? In my house I have to be functioning at 100% or everything falls apart. I could be way off but maybe this is contributing to the problems. I do think your oldest 2 need an eval from neuropsych and OT. And just bc oldest didn't like therapist-can't you find new therapist?

 

I also agree with others that school won't magically fix their problems. You still have to be a parent even if it is the mornings, evenings and weekends.

 

:grouphug:

[G5052]

I haven't read all of the replies, but after over a decade now, I can officially say that my children hate school and are perpetually resistant to learning. So what, too bad. They don't get away with much complaining or bad work habits either.

 

I was with one in the ER last night until 1 am and then up off and on every few hours after that changing ice packs, so I excused that kid from school today because we're both shot. But the others immediately assumed they could get away with doing nothing. Nope. But that is always the trend, they don't want to work, but they do work. Life is tough, and I set the expectations. They also test beautifully on national standardized testing and have been scoring very well on national subject exams like the National Latin Exam and CLEP exams.

 

The reality is that I know what makes them tick and push the buttons in the right places to keep them going. When they were younger we went lighter than some on this board and focused on good work habits. That paid off. I'm also unyielding. I'm the boss, and they can petition for changes but they don't run the show.

 

I haven't dealt with learning disabilities, but we've had significant family issues that we enlisted professional help for and I juggle paid work in the mix. If I suspected problems, I'd get help.

 

When mine were young, it helped me to realize that I'd be having to get them out the door every day, manage all the homework, and deal with teachers who made assumptions and/or we're being what my child needed. That in itself is a lot of work too.

[fruitofthewomb]

wanted to add-my oldest has seizure disorder and we have trouble keeping them under control with meds so we are constantly adjusting which is hard on her body. Some days she is lethargic, other days she bounces off the wall. I try my best to enforce the rules no matter what kind of day she is having bc I don't want her to ever see her problems as an excuse to behave however she wants BUT there are some days when I just don't know what to do with her. So just know that there are lots of mamas out there who struggle with very imperfect (but precious) children.

[honeymommy4]

Ok, so what ARE they doing? They must be doing something. Are they watching TV? Playing quietly? Looking at books? If you tell us what they ARE doing it would help.

um... rolling around on the floor. laying around. occasionally playing or fighting. wandering around picking things up to play with that are not toys.

 

Now my DS seems to have come down with something so this could be why he is doing this today. (we had a stomach bug going around here a few weeks ago) but there have been many other days like this.

 

I am thinking we need to start back up school ASAP. If it is PPD then I need to step up and start taking my vitamins! I;m not taking anything right now, i have to admit and i have awhole bunch of supplements I need to take. i just honestly forget. Once I get the baby on a schedule things go much better. i need to work on this.

Edited June 20, 2012 by honeymommy4

[redsquirrel]

Sweetheart, you need to take care of yourself for a little while. You just had a baby, your fifth baby. You have five children aged 8 and under. One of those children is a newborn. Two of them are not typical and are fairly challenging behavior wise.

 

I really can't imagine how you are even making it through the day, much less thinking about educating a couple of them. Are you eating? Are you managing to get dressed? I remember being fairly challenged by those two things when my second was 8 weeks old. I don't imagine it is any easier when it is your fifth.

 

Why don't you just get everyone healthy this summer and then worry about school in a few months? You are still very much post-partum.

[Critterfixer]

What Redsquirrel said.

At least take the vacation first!

[NASDAQ]

I don't have an eight-year-old. I have a six-year-old. Take this with that in mind.

 

I have to force my child to do school work every. Single. Day. Every day. Okay, we take Sabbath off. But every other day I have to make her do it. And it's nothing as hands off as "do this or else you get extra chores" and then she does the darn work. It's much more intensive. Sometimes she's ended up in the corner for thirty minutes before she'll do her Kumon without whining over every problem.

 

I know it's easy to say, well, it's a parenting problem. But after a few days of High Whine, it does wear me down. Then I tell my mum, and she says, of course they cry. Would you want to do arithmetic drills? :lol: You make them do it anyway.

 

Sometimes it's easiest for me to just be a lot less creative and to set out what we're going to do and when we're going to do it, and just plod through. How long did you try each of these programs for?

[Parrothead]

I didn't read past the first page of replies. And since I only have one child take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

1st: Stop schooling and get the discipline issue under control.

 

2nd: Work out a schedule that is useable for you when you go back to schooling. Make sure you build in breaks, naps and meals.

 

3rd: Remember your kids are young yet. They need to learn what is expected both with discipline and the schedule as much as the 3Rs.

 

If I had as many kids as you do I think I'd have a mandatory 1.5 hours every afternoon for down time.

 

:grouphug:

[LittleIzumi]

okay the title of your thread asks for honesty----

 

You mention your child seeing "a therapist" and he hated it. Is that as far as you have gone?

 

Because honestly the listlessness, food sensitivities, the tying shoes really tight, drawing the same character over and over etc., not showing an interest in things possibly outside his interest realm....

 

Have you had your child evaluated for anything beyond OCD/ADD? Have you had a neuropsych eval, seen an occupational therapist etc.? Because those are the things you're posting that stand out for me to look into possible other issues besides discipline. The shoe tying screams sensory processing issues to me, the drawing over and over screams possible spectrum (which is unfortunately co-morbid with OCD and sensory issues a lot of the times) especially if it's done in a compulsion type way. I'm not telling you to borrow trouble. And I'm not denying that discipline is necessary. Like I said above, there's a time to put your foot down and a time to address any underlying issues.

 

Are there other signs? Poor muscle tone? Can they (your ds and dd) pedal, run, swing, climb, and generally move their body in a smooth, coordinated way? Are they "floppy" or "stiff" when you pick them up? Do they sensory seek in any way---rubbing against walls, pacing around the room, pulling on their hair, anything that seems odd that they do over and over? Or do they sensory avoid---do they refuse to paint because of the mess, are they over sensitive about water or messy activities, do they eat well, do they fuss about keeping their hands clean, or seem unaware their hands are messy?

 

Honestly---the tight shoes until there were bruises is a big one. Do they fuss about other clothing stuff---scratchy, tight, loose, uncomfortable?

 

um... rolling around on the floor. laying around. occasionally playing or fighting. wandering around picking things up to play with that are not toys.

 

Now my DS seems to have come down with something so this could be why he is doing this today. (we had a stomach bug going around here a few weeks ago) but there have been many other days like this.

 

I am thinking we need to start back up school ASAP. If it is PPD then I need to step up and start taking my vitamins! I;m not taking anything right now, i have to admit and i have awhole bunch of supplements I need to take. i just honestly forget. Once I get the baby on a schedule things go much better. i need to work on this.

 

Okay, now I agree with Iris. Get thee to an evaluation, stat!! That sounds EXACTLY like The Drama, right before I had her evaluated by Early Intervention. She had severe sensory issues and communication deficits too, but most of what I had noticed as a parent was how she would do nothing--just wander the house listlessly, or want to be held, or holler. That was it. (And she tried to chew on metal things, sensory seeking/not getting enough sensory input, like your shoe tying until it bruised story.) She was in therapy for 1.5 years, plus some energy work (I'm a bit hippie :tongue_smilie:), and she is a DIFFERENT CHILD now. Completely. She is the "normal" one now, can focus, finish her schoolwork in no time flat, ASKS for schoolwork, eats normally, runs, plays, draws, pretends, the whole lot. But when she was younger, all she would do was nothing, just meander like she had no idea why she was even here, or find ways to get insane input like diving headfirst into things. And then wander slowly around the house and do nothing at all again. Then follow me around and want to be held constantly. Then do nothing again. That was our day.

[WeeBeaks]

I browsed replies. I agree with several of them. I'm coming at this with an ADHD/bipolar 10yo son, a reasonably neurotypical though maybe "quirky" 6yo son, seemingly neurotypical 4yo DD and a 1yo who is ... a toddler. ;)

 

We've got the H portion of ADD so not wanting to do anything is NOT a problem here. You mention ADD - do you have the hyperfocus on anything except drawing over and over? Anything that is a particular passion/interest? Drawing in general? Pick out anything you can to help you with interest. No, every bit of school won't be joyful (I had to give up some of those HSing blogs too), but you can use interests to help. Lego crazy? Build models of things you are learning about and so forth. Drawing? Use Draw Write Now for handwriting, draw a picture of that math problem, whatever.

 

I've got 4 kids, though thankfully a bit more spacing than you have. :tongue_smilie: How organized are you in general? Do you have a definite laid-out plan of what you want to accomplish weekly, monthly, etc. SOMETHING definitive? If not, start there. It doesn't mean you can't deviate based on needs, but you need a goal in order to meet it. Then portion out what needs done by week, month, day, whatever works for YOU. Go for the absolute basic minimums here by the way, not the ideal. You can add and feel good, but it's depressing to overanticipate and not meet those goals. Pick the min.

 

ADD kids do seem to do well with routine, same thing day in and day out, predictable, perhaps a tad on the boring side. No surprises, minimal transitions, not requiring a ton of brain power. IMHO, they like to see it all laid out too. In that respect, we use workboxes for some of my kids. They can see exactly what is to be done, what order, and have a place to find and store everything. Put a pencil in every single box if you have to if your ADD kid can't find supplies. Eraser too. Yes, I had to do that. :D Workboxes don't have to mean workbooks/school at home though. If you read Sue Patrick's stuff, it can seem that way. They can work with whatever you eventually choose to use. There are loads of blogs. I put our readaloud in one box, math in another, etc.

 

We plow through the school work whether they feel like it or not honestly. It just needs done. Period. That is where some discipline comes in, and I don't think it is bad. But, again, I do NOT overload. That is depressing to feel like the work never ends, from your point of view and the kids! We school and then go have fun, however you determine it. TV/electronics/games/toys are not out until school is done. Work, then play is our motivator.

 

If they truly have zero motivation and the TV truly is not on, not reading, not playing, nothing even when demands are met, I really would look into further workup for depression/allergies/illness or something medically going on. :grouphug:

 

My caveat - we do also use meds for one of mine. HE is happier (not to mention me of course). He went from not even being able to focus on things he loved prior to being able to really focus and enjoy more (Snap Circuits, Lego, reading an entire book). He said he felt better and his joy came back. We tried holistic routines alone and now in combination, but we had to do meds for now. I would work on all the other things first though.

[EKS]

At a certain point I do think a homeschooled child has to be somewhat a self-starter, don't you think?

 

At a certain point, yes, but at the ages of your children you aren't at that point yet and won't be for a very long time.

 

First, don't expect them to like or want to do schoolwork. That said, be sure you make curriculum choices that work for your children and don't cause tears or undue stress.

 

Make a schedule. Teach the 5yo first. Work with him for one hour--30 minutes for math, 30 minutes reading, and 5 minutes for handwriting. OK, that's an hour and five minutes, but who's counting...

 

Then work with the 8yo for 2 hours--45 minutes for math, 30 minutes for language arts, 15 minutes for writing on his own (with you sitting next to him), and 30 minutes of history or science plus 30 minutes of assigned reading at the end (where you are in the same room but not necessarily right next to him).

 

Obviously you don't have to do exactly this, but the idea is to make the lessons mandatory but short and sweet. Do not expect your children to do anything without you right at their sides. Once this becomes a routine, you can try adding in more independent work, but make sure to do it very gradually. A good thing to start with might be math problem sets or handwriting practice.

 

The important thing is that they don't have a choice. You may have to resort to bribery or threats at first because you didn't establish that there was no choice up front, but be sure to be consistent in enforcing the consequences of a poor attitude and lack of cooperation.

 

Also, park programs can be stressful for some kids. They usually don't last long enough, both in terms of time spent at each session and number of sessions for kids to settle in and develop relationships with the other kids. Many times homeschooled kids feel out of place because the other kids all go to school together and the homeschooled kid doesn't know anyone. If possible, I'd look for a co-op or public homeschool support program that offers classes over a long period with the same kids each time. Once your kids feel part of things and have made some friends that they see each time, they'll probably love going.

[MeganW]

They might do the things half heartedly. Am I going to punish because DS spent 5 mins. on a drawing rather than 20?

 

BTW what extra chores do you assign for not complying? because when i do this i have one that does the chore half heartedly and another that gets super angry etc. i can punish for the anger but it just makes him more angry. I get that this sounds like disobedience but it is them just not wanting to do anythign, not even creative play. I hear people say structure them and make them do certain things at certain times. how long does this last being difficult and when do they start enjoying their time with you (if at all??)

 

 

I have each kid read a beginning reader book each day, draw a picture to go with it, and then bring it to me to read/show. I have one kid who started out doing 5 minute drawings. I just had to ask questions to get him going. "Tell me about your picture." "It's a dog." "What's he doing?" "Playing catch." "Maybe you could add some grass, and a ball, and a boy playing with him." I also have to let them know I want them to use at least 3 different colors. For whatever reason, that gets them going! :)

 

I don't punish for doing a chore or schoolwork half-heartedly, I just keep sending them back until it is done properly. If someone is really having an attitude, the others go outside to play until that person finishes their work, as well as the others, b/c "I hate for the other kids to have to be around you when you are acting this way".

 

I also take work along to afternoon activities, and anyone who didn't do all their work that morning finishes it while the others are having fun. Again, any work not done properly is re-done until it is their best.

 

I often think work gets done half-heartedly b/c the kids don't know exactly what the expectations are. Give more guidelines, and more praise. "I LOVE the way used up the whole piece of paper for this drawing! You put in so many details so I would really know what was going on, instead of just scratching something out as fast as you can to get it done. This is great - we'd better put that work over by the mail so Daddy will see it when he gets home!" (Leave sticky note on it telling Daddy you knew he would want to see what a great job X did of their work today, so he will praise as well.) It's amazing how much a little praise of something specific impacts their future work.

[happymomofboys]

They do not want to do ANYTHING. I feel like giving up. At a certain point I do think a homeschooled child has to be somewhat a self-starter, don't you think?

 

Not at 8 years old, no I don't. My kids have choices, but they don't have a choice. If they won't choose one of the choices I give them, then I choose for them. They're children. I'm the adult. They need an education and I'm entrusted by God and society to provide that education to them.

 

They don't have to like everything they have to do, but they do have to do it. They won't like everything they have to do as adults either. I try to make things fun, but not everything is fun. Not everything can be fun. They have to learn that a lot of the "fun" comes from their attitude.

Edited June 20, 2012 by happymomofboys
typo

[Pen]

... It's amazing how much a little praise of something specific impacts their future work.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, notice improvements and mention them.

 

And praise effort.

 

And notice your own efforts and improvements and praise yourself for those too.

[warneral]

I'm not convinced the parent can do this. It seems to me that this is a choice for the child to make, not the parent. I can insist on *behavior* that does not complain, and completed work before privileges are allowed but I am not in control of dc's mindset. Ds will rarely if ever want to do school, and I can get him to do it since it is required of him, but I cannot make him like it. That is his own internal motivation that must come into play. I can hopefully entice him into learning, and show him passion for life and all its adventures by living my own, but otherwise it is up to him how he chooses to feel about it. As long as he does his work and keeps his negative feelings to himself, my job is done.

 

No I mean mom needs to change her mindset that the children saying they don't want to do something. It is time to care less about what they want to do and just talk through it, while still requiring participation of at least the bare minimum.

 

When parents say their kids won't or don't want to do something, I typically scratch my head. Who is the parent here? I'm not talking about forcing, but I am talking about thinking long and hard about expecting more from your children.

[Parrothead]

At a certain point, yes, but at the ages of your children you aren't at that point yet and won't be for a very long time.

 

 

:iagree: Dd is 12 and just starting to be a self started. It is my understanding that for boys that could come later.

[MeganW]

um... rolling around on the floor. laying around. occasionally playing or fighting. wandering around picking things up to play with that are not toys.

 

My big kids were born 9 weeks early, and have some challenges as a result. I literally had to teach them to play. We focused on a book a week, and did a different activity each day.

 

For example, one week we did Little Red Riding Hood. One day we made the characters out of Playdoh. We assigned each person a character, and then reenacted it. One day we did it with puppets. One day we built houses with pine straw, Lincoln Logs, & blocks & reenacted it. One day we dug through the dressup bin & reenacted it. One day we drew pictures. One day we used the dollhouse figures. One day we drew with sidewalk chalk. One day we played it outside using the trees as houses and turned it into a game of tag.

 

I had to literally lead them every step of the way. By the time we had done that with 10 stories, they knew how to use puppets, playdoh, legos, lincoln logs, etc. I tried to incorporate every toy in the playroom & garage.

 

After a while, we read a story, and I would send the kids off to find appropriate puppets, practice, and put on a show, or I would send them off to illustrate the story with sidewalk chalk. I didn't do that until I knew they could be successful at it though.

 

I know a lot of kids just figure all this out, but some kids just don't. Mine didn't, but it was work investing the time to teach them step by step.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MeganW

[FairProspects]

No I mean mom needs to change her mindset that the children saying they don't want to do something. It is time to care less about what they want to do and just talk through it, while still requiring participation of at least the bare minimum.

 

When parents say their kids won't or don't want to do something, I typically scratch my head. Who is the parent here? I'm not talking about forcing, but I am talking about thinking long and hard about expecting more from your children.

 

Ok, I misunderstood. Carry on! :D

[TracyP]

Sweetheart, you need to take care of yourself for a little while. You just had a baby, your fifth baby. You have five children aged 8 and under. One of those children is a newborn. Two of them are not typical and are fairly challenging behavior wise.

 

I really can't imagine how you are even making it through the day, much less thinking about educating a couple of them. Are you eating? Are you managing to get dressed? I remember being fairly challenged by those two things when my second was 8 weeks old. I don't imagine it is any easier when it is your fifth.

 

Why don't you just get everyone healthy this summer and then worry about school in a few months? You are still very much post-partum.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

My 5th is 18 mos old and I still feel like I am in a fog. The fog is just lifting enough that I am starting to realize how thick the fog was a year ago. :grouphug:

 

Get some rest, take your vitamins, (B vitamins have done wonders for me) and forget about school for now. I have a child with sensory and other issues too. I think you need to make it a priority to figure out what your son needs whether it be meds, OT, whatever. Then sloooowly work on establishing a routine, then adding in a minimum of school to be done without complaint whether you enjoy it or not.;)

[MerryAtHope]

okay--I'm going to be the lone voice here and say that saying it's just a "discipline" issue is very annoying to me. She mentioned in her OP that her child has OCD/ADD and she suspects another does as well.

 

My 9 year old is on the spectrum (pdd-nos) with OCD/anxiety and he is a lovely little boy who respects his parents BUT his issues do get in the way at times and he will act in ways that other parents would consider "disrespect" or "undisciplined" without knowing what I know about what he struggles with daily.

 

My ds "hates" school, never wants to do it, would gladly rot in from of a tv or computer screen or draw endlessly in his room if I let him. It's not from lack of discipline or structure or routines or parental expectations. He honestly cannot help himself falling into the broken record groove in his brain. I'll be honest, meds have helped, although I resisted for years. I do have to force him a lot of mornings to do the simplest things even though he has been inundated with every kind of chart recommended for kids on the spectrum. I have to just sit down and flat out tell him that he has no choice but to do his schoolwork. And just try my best to cheerfully keep on it throughout any resistance. I have had to become real skilled at knowing when he's struggling due to his dx's and when he's being a typical 9 year old trying to get out of something. I think you have to be very careful to not let learned helplessness and self-fulfilling prophecies to take over. Don't let a dx become an excuse, but do learn how to work with and around it.

 

You have to get rid of the illusion right now that homeschooling kid's with special needs of any sort is going to resemble in any way the sugar-coated, lovely time that others make it out to be. <hint: don't read blogs ;)>

 

I'm not homeschooling my child because I have grand plans of spending my day a la Satori Smiles, kwim? I continue to homeschool because I want to give my smart, capable, creative ds a chance that I feel he would more than likely be denied at a ps. It's too easy for kid's like ours to be shunted aside into spec ed and LD programs that have little to no intention of challenging them. I would rather accept that my kid has challenges and address those at home and give him the chance to learn at his pace and to challenge him to go past his comfort level and try some harder tasks.

 

It's extremely difficult to pull him out of "his world" that he gets lost in and to make him realize the value in math and history reading etc. I do plan fun projects, and there have been plenty of times he has wandered off, but I don't care if I'm the one gluing, cutting and building, he will stay with me and we'll talk about it and he will participate where and how he is able. Exposure and expanding the world is more important with kid's suffering with certain issues than maybe others who have their natural curiosity intact.

 

I expect, if not a cheerful attitude, at least no open hostility. I realize that the OCD self in him finds hiding in his room and writing lists over and over of certain characters necessary, but it will have to wait because *this* is the time for learning long division. There is a balance you have to strike with these kiddos between giving them choices and flat out telling what's next, like it or not.

 

My ds also does not "play" very well. It's a limitation of his dx. You have to keep your energy high to be their brain in a way. To keep fun activities available, to be the one initiating games and such. Another illusion you can get rid of right now is the one parents of nt kids take for granted--that our kids will just "go play" and we are blissfully left to pursue adult interests and tasks. We have to be INVOLVED to a much higher degree than I see a lot of other parents being. Some kids do not know how to play creatively, do not know what to do with a pile of blocks or lump of playdoh.

 

For the OP I suggest (for the low-energy) looking into the Out of Sync books and Brain Gym books, think about an OT eval if you haven't, and put nonnegotiable, even severe, limits on screens. They tend to zap sn kids energies even more rather than help imho. There could be some underlying sensory issues that an ot could help with.

 

If your kid is not enjoying anything, has ocd, and low energy it may be time to look into meds. Talk to your dr. I resisted but as soon as my ds had a low dose zoloft he began to open up and be much more willing to try new things and let go of some compulsions and stims.

 

You have to change your expectations about "enjoyment" as well. Take your successes where they come and don't give up. Try hard to quell any disappointment and take time to come to grips with the fact that any fantasy you may have had about your kid's personality or abilities and your homeschooling experience may just have to be let go. I've been there, I've mourned the "loss" of what I dreamed about my ds while he was a baby etc. But letting that go and accepting and loving and appreciating "what it is" in regards to homeschooling him has actually helped me enjoy and appreciate the quirks in my family.

 

HTH

 

Great post!

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll throw in a little bit here. One, I think you'd do really well to find a teenage or adult "mother's helper" for a while. You need someone old enough and with enough energy to come in and create some structure for a while. It can be PLAY structure, not anything particular. They just need to come in and help implement the order of the day you want and give you a break. You have a little baby and a bunch of others, and you need some help. No crime there. I would DEFINITELY pursue that.

 

Thing two, it sounds (or feels when you're in that position) really perjorative to call something a discipline problem that isn't so much of a discipline problem as a structure and SN problem. Some things are going to be an uphill slog no matter how much you discipline. Or you get results at the point of really harming the child. Sometimes you find a really wise balance. Sometimes typical discipline backfires. Sometimes the word you were needing wasn't discipline but STRUCTURE.

 

So now let's talk structure. You've already figured out romance and ADHD don't go together, lol. Not that romance, I mean the romance of homeschooling. I'll agree with the others that you may need to prune your expectations. ADHD 8 yo, you're talking 2 hours of school work a day plus some reading, maybe less. That's all. K5 with ADHD is 40 minutes plus read alouds. That's all. Whatever you're attempting beyond that is sheer insanity. And frankly I can see how getting anything done is hard with the mix you have. If I could counsel you, it would be to take that list down to what is NECESSARY and then think about what kind of STRUCTURE you require in your day to make that essential list happen. By structure I mean: I need 40 minutes to hit these two subjects with my oldest so I will do that during a mandatory quiet time (as in LOCKED IN THEIR ROOMS) for the others. That's structure. That's making a routine and a plan that helps you get done what has to be done.

 

Now for the romance stuff. My dd would never ever ever remember or initiate on her own all the amazing things I had found for her. Just saying. But if you trim down that list and you yourself prep a little list of 4 or 5 cool ideas at the beginning of the week, then when you see them bored you pull out that list and go 'Oh, let's do these shrinky dink kits!" and they go cool and off you go.

 

I'm concerned about the hypoglyecmia, so much protein, etc. I ate low carb for hypoglycemia. It's actually possible to reverse it by eating fruit, but we won't talk about that. Or we could. :) Anyways, it makes kids over-acidic, cuts out food groups they need, and is cutting out the fuel that makes their brains go. That may partially account for their unusual fatigue. I'm not talking crappy carbs, but good carbs can be, well, good. But when you do that you feed them good food every two hours. Whatever, that's its own rabbit trail.

 

Pen mentioned environmental stuff. She's right that for instance if your house is unusually close to high tension power lines, it would actually account for what you're experiencing.

 

Have any of your kids had an OT eval? You can have "high stim" and "low stim" kids. A low stim kid can be adhd but is the polar opposite of what you expect. They have the impairments with attention span, exective function, working memory, etc., but they're slow to rise, groggy, slow responders, etc. etc. My dd is like that. We put her on a supplement for allergies and it made a big difference. If they're congested and not breathing well at night, they don't rise well and are slow to warm up to the day.

 

There's also some stuff you can do for the ADHD. Linguisystems has an executive function training workbook for elementary that would be good.

 

Lastly, come hang out on the SN board. People don't bite. You'll fit right in. :)

Edited June 21, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[stripe]

My big kids were born 9 weeks early, and have some challenges as a result. I literally had to teach them to play. We focused on a book a week, and did a different activity each week.

...

I know a lot of kids just figure all this out, but some kids just don't. Mine didn't, but it was work investing the time to teach them step by step.

 

This post was so wonderful. Do you have any resources to suggest for how I can learn to do this?

 

I think it is a very hard thing for a lot of adults to teach small children. Things look so easy to us, but they are so complicated for them. I had this realization one day seeing how happy my kids were at a library storytime for little kids led by a really great children's librarian.

[MerryAtHope]

(((Hugs))) to you and congrats on your new baby!

 

I think special needs are playing more of a role here than discipline, although there may be aspects there too. I like what Walking Iris said about not letting SN become an excuse to not make them do things they don't want. It's tough though when you have a child who struggles.

 

I agree with taking a bit of a break, get into a routine of sorts with having a 5th child, rest and take care of yourself, and then look at school again.

 

I also agree that there is a strong possibility that more is going on here (tying shoes sound like sensory issues to me too, etc...) If you can do a further eval, a neuropsych exam etc..., that might be helpful.

 

When it comes to school, something that really helps with ADD is to lay out the expectations ahead of time. I use workboxes to structure our day. There is no "want" or "don't want," although I do work with my kids (and at age 8 I was still sitting with my oldest to get him through math and some other subjects, sometimes scribing for him--but he did it). I wouldn't expect independence at all right now, but put a good routine in place and help him until he can do more and more on his own. SN kids need lots of teacher time though.

 

I did the "what if I didn't do all the things I don't want to do" conversation as well, very helpful here.

 

We also talked through curriculum--math isn't optional, but what we use for it is. But once we chose something together (by looking at samples together and so on), that was it for the year--we didn't keep changing. The next year we could do something different if needed, but mid-year I almost never change. Again, setting that expectation is important.

 

Workboxes provide a structure that kids with ADD need. Talk through the expectations before you start school back up. I start up gradually--one subject, then keep adding another every day or two until we are at a full schedule. But they have to complete each box.

 

Hang in there! Merry :-)

[PeterPan]

Just to echo what Merry is saying about workboxes, I'll tell you that even my 3.5 yo enjoys having a list for his school day. His is more flexible, so he gets to chose what to do next from the list, but the fact is he HAS a list, gets the idea that it structures our options and that there's a plan, and he can come in line with that. So it's something that can work for a LOT of your littles, either with a pocket chart and cards with pictures or a checklist on an ipad or workboxes or whatever you want to try. They can have structure and know what's happening and develop a sense of routine.

[besroma]

Merry, walkingIris, and Elizabeth have offered great advice. I did not read all of the posts.....I am sure others did as well.

 

 

I would also take a break, rest, rejuvenate, and enjoy some time with them and regroup before jumping back in. They are still very young....you have a lot of time for school.

 

If you think it might be a combination of discipline and the special needs, I would spend some time addressing their attitudes (gently), teaching them to accept what you say. If this is not the issue, I would keep trying different approaches until you find one that works, knowing that you have time to figure things out.

 

:grouphug:

[honeymommy4]

I think you'd do really well to find a teenage or adult "mother's helper" for a while.

I will check our homeschool group for a mother's helper. Our group is located much further North so not sure I will find someone close by, but I will check.

 

I'm concerned about the hypoglyecmia, so much protein, etc. I ate low carb for hypoglycemia. It's actually possible to reverse it by eating fruit,

 

Can you elaborate on this - what is the best stuff for them? :)

 

Pen mentioned environmental stuff. She's right that for instance if your house is unusually close to high tension power lines, it would actually account for what you're experiencing.

 

We are not close but we are in a neighborhood. We have a laptops in the house. Air conditioing running 24/7 right now because of the heat index and DH can not breathe well in the evenings if the air is not on (once we hit the humid months like this)

(HOPING to move next year to a one-level ranch - right now we have a 3 level split + basement and being up so high the house gets warmer than normal in the summer. )

 

Have any of your kids had an OT eval? You can have "high stim" and "low stim" kids. A low stim kid can be adhd but is the polar opposite of what you expect. They have the impairments with attention span, exective function, working memory, etc., but they're slow to rise, groggy, slow responders, etc. etc. My dd is like that. We put her on a supplement for allergies and it made a big difference. If they're congested and not breathing well at night, they don't rise well and are slow to warm up to the day.

noted. It is a bad allergy time here!

 

There's also some stuff you can do for the ADHD. Linguisystems has an executive function training workbook for elementary that would be good.

 

I will get this book!

 

This all makes the most sense.

 

i will add my DD hated workboxes at 3.5, She did not want to do what was in them. :(

[honeymommy4]

Ok, so i understand create a structure. As an example, at this time today we are just having some free play time indoors. I am feeding the baby. going to have lunch soon.

We just finished up a series of Crazy 8s games. We have friends coming by from 2-4. So my 5yo has asked several times when they are coming. I have told him and asked him not to ask me again.

 

He does not want to do anything. I asked him to play with the blocks (to direct him somewhere) he just wants to lay on the coffee table (or the floor)

finally i tell him he MUST play with these blocks. He says "I want to color". It is like this every time so that tells me it IS just a defiance thing. So I tell him no, he must play with the blocks.

 

it is a BAD allergy time here. it is one of the worst allergy years in Ohio they are saying. We have a lot of air pressure, too - we are just outside a valley. So I feel miserable today, too. but not letting it get to me. I get that no one feels like doing much. I wish there was something to give them to help. They already take vitamins, fish oil and probiotics. My 5yo only takes fish oil because he does not like the sour taste of the kids vitamins. its just what we have right now.

[PeterPan]

Jarrow brand quercitin is what I've been giving my dd. We're in Ohio too, and yes it has be awful for allergies this year! Normally I wouldn't even consider us to have a problem. It has just been a bad year.

[Guest]

You have received a lot of good advice, and given that there are special needs children in the family, I was really happy to see several ladies from the SN board offer their advice. They have been there and know what they are talking about :).

 

I really enjoyed reading Walking-Iris' post and OhElizabeth's advice but also several others from the SN board. I also agree with Merry and a few others like Ellie's posts and those that said that you, the mom, need to rest. You just had a baby and you have all young aged children.

 

I won't focus on repeating what others have already said though. I want to touch on something that, since I did not read all the posts here, I am not sure if it has been mentioned. Yes, structure is what is needed here. I am working on that myself ;). Also though, kids need to feel like they can control something. Controlling everything they do in a day can eventually break their spirit and make them give up. For example, if I am giving my son to draw and he wants to build with his K'Nex, he can go right ahead. That is his right. Kids need to feel that they have rights in the family too. I am not saying that being disrespectful is ok. What I am saying is that you pick your battles.

 

Another thing, putting a child in the corner because he is not willingly doing his work, not going to motivate the child next time around! It will probably make him more resistant. Finding what works for the child's learning style and personality and being careful not to overwhelm the child with too much, will probably have much better results. Ask me how I know ;)!

 

Anyway, this comes from someone that loved school. You know why? I was lucky enough to have come across some excellent educators in my life that inspired the love of learning.

 

Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel. (Socrates)

 

Hope we see you on the SN board :)!

Edited June 22, 2012 by Guest

[Pen]

You have received a lot of good advice, and given that there are special needs children in the family, I was really happy to see several ladies from the SN board offer their advice. They have been there and know what they are talking about :).

 

I really enjoyed reading Walking-Iris' post and OhElizabeth's advice but also several others from the SN board. I also agree with Merry and a few others like Ellie's posts and those that said that you, the mom, needs to rest. You just had a baby and you have all young age children.

 

I won't focus on repeating what others have already said though. I want to touch on something that, since I did not read all the posts here, I am not sure if it has been mentioned. Yes, structure is what is needed here. I am working on that myself ;). Also though, kids need to feel like they can control something. Controlling everything they do in a day can eventually break their spirit and make them give up. For example, if I am giving my son to draw and he wants to build with his K'Nex, he can go right ahead. That is his right. Kids need to feel that they have rights in the family too. I am not saying that being disrespectful is ok. What I am saying is that you pick your battles.

 

Another thing, putting a child in the corner because he is not willingly doing his work, not going to motivate the child next time around! It will probably make him more resistant. Finding what works for the child's learning style and personality and being careful not to overwhelm the child with too much, will probably have much better results. Ask me how I know ;)!

 

Anyway, this comes from someone that loved school. You know why? I was lucky enough to have come across some excellent educators in my life that inspired the love of learning.

 

 

Hope we see you on the SN board :)!

 

Yes. This is a good point.

 

I sometimes also do choices, like "you can do music or art now." Or "you can draw or watercolor."

 

Similarly I allow some choices of what green vegetable like "cooked spinach or raw greens tonight."

 

It gives some choice as to the specifics, but still requires something in a particular area, whether that is a food or schoolwork.

[MeganW]

This post was so wonderful. Do you have any resources to suggest for how I can learn to do this?

 

My sister has wonderfully imaginative twins who are almost exactly 2 years older than my trio, and another child who is about 6 months older. I truly just watched and copied them in the beginning. After a while it really does become a lot easier!

[Sahamamama]

I have not read through the replies, but here are my thoughts on the OP's post:

 

It sounds as though you're not really in charge -- in charge of your routine, in charge of their routine, in charge of your attitudes towards getting work done, in charge of what you will cover, or in charge of what they will do, whether they feel like it or not (and whether you feel like it or not). Homeschooling is not for the faint of heart. You have to want to do it, not just talk it and plan it and buy it -- DO it. Decide if you truly want to be in charge of your children's education, and if not, admit it. If you do want to take on that responsibility, then take it on... don't just let it lie there, half-dead in the living room.

 

Your children are young -- 8, 6, 4, 2, and a baby. At this point, no, they are not going to direct their own academic-type learning. They can and will learn on their own, but not necessarily math, reading, spelling, penmanship, composition, grammar, history, geography, science, and literature. ;) KWIM? And if they are now learning how to loaf around, complain, argue, procrastinate, distract you, not cooperate with you, and give you a hard time about everything, then ask yourself if that is what you want them learning?

 

You have five very young children, so it's going to be hard work, no matter what. But if you are in charge, it should not feel overwhelming all the time. Decide what you want, commit to a workload that is realistic, and then get up and make it happen. Or, yeah, put them in school and someone else may be able to make them do work, if you stand behind that at home. Either way, it's up to you to make it clear to yourself and to your children that, if you want to succeed, you have to put the effort into learning.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh, but homeschooling is only "better" if it is better. At least in my own limited experience, my children (6, 6, 8) would loaf and play all day, if they didn't have to get their school work done. It's not negotiable. Come and do this. They do it. I'm really not concerned about their moods or preferences. I prefer that they learn. That's the end of it, IMO.

[beaners]

(This is an old thread.) ;)

[unsinkable]

(This is an old thread.) ;)

 

Yeah. I think there is a new member who needs to put some clothes on in her avatar.

 

I reported it. I think it might be spam.

[Spryte]

Yeah. I think there is a new member who needs to put some clothes on in her avatar.

 

 

I read this entire thread before realizing it was old. Then got to this post and snorted coffee. My keyboard thanks you for the laugh. :)

 

OP, if you're around ... How are things now?

[Hottater]

I would love to trash the TV but it is DH's evening thing.

 

 

Unplug it during school time and tape it with packing tape. My mom actually cut the cord, and My brother (now electrical engineer) figured out how to rewire the frayed edges of the tv cord! LOL

[Sahamamama]

It wasn't me! :) I didn't start it back up again. There was another post that resurrected it.

[PachiSusan]

At their ages I would say this is a mommy issue not a kids issue. Of course they just want to play and lay around the house. It is your job to say tough cookies and get the work done. I get what it is like homeschooling challenging/difficult kids, if you have read any of my past posts you know how true that is. I also know that I should have forced my kids to suck it up much younger because now that they are teens it is much harder to get them doing what they need to. I don't make school nothing but busy work and mindless worksheets, but the fact it I don't give a carp whether they *like* grammar or *want* to do math. It must be done. And speaking as someone looking back after 6 yrs of hsing I can say my biggest regret is not about curric choices, or what cool activities we didn't do etc It is for MY lack of diligence in teaching them work ethic, perseverence, and diligence whether they *want* to do something or not. I am now working on remediating that short fall and it is way harder than if I did it back then because they now have 6 years of getting away with arguements and refusals (even when they eventually did the work, they still "won" because it was on their timetable after they made the steam come out of my ears). Nip it now, spend the summer focused on character, cheerful attitude and behaviours related to school work obedience. Stop changing methods, it is not the method it is the attitude.

 

If YOU as mom can not step up at these ages and stop letting them determine whether they want to/need to/will do whatever the assignment is, then yes perhaps putting them into school before it is too late would be best. If however you are like most of us here that want to homeschool, and homeschool well and are willing to be the driving force in doing so give it another year. Do not change methods, change attitudes.

 

I would focus on the 8 yr old first, the 5 yr old I would not push the seat work, but play board games etc that will get him cooperating with you and learning while you focus on changing the attitude and work ethic of the 8 year old. Many many 5 year olds are not ready for much schooling at this point. Once things are improving with the 8 year old start introducing seatwork again to the 5 year old in small increments with the attitude of "tough cookies this is getting done now". Given their issues, it WILL get worse before it gets better. They will push back and challenge you harder than ever. Don't argue, don't fight, don't waver. Like when training obstinate puppies, "be a tree". They will see that you will not sway from this. School will be done whether they want to or not. They will see as well that if they just hop to it, school work is over very quickly compared to dragging it out all bloody day and night with attitudes.

 

Can I just say "ditto" ?

[Snow]

Nm. Didn't read through the whole thing until now.