Has this article been discussed? Wow. Just WOW. (slipping educational standards in PS

[Carrie12345]

I just looked up 11th grade PSSAs, which are required to pass as proficient to graduate. (http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=18&objID=354520&mode=2 if you want to see.)

 

I don't know how to feel about the first essay, which was given a perfect score. Technically, it does seem to follow the rubric. And the student appears to have great potential, imo... if she would receive proper writing instruction! But I can't stop picturing red ink all ober the place! I just can't see how so many obvious errors can add up to a perfect score!

[FaithManor]

Wow, this is just sad--not that this is what level of work some people are capable of, but that the diploma issued for this level of work is the same as for the AP student. No wonder college is a prerequisite to a good job these days. There will always be those on the higher and lower ends academically. IMO, where that becomes a problem is when we shoot to the middle instead of tailoring education for at least a few different levels.

 

 

 

This is just scary.

 

 

Yes, that's the crux of the matter. A high school diploma now does not mean much and many employers demand an associate's degree or even a bachelor's as the default replacement for unskilled labor jobs.

 

My dad does not need those with bachelor's degrees for his plumbing/heating/air conditioning business, but he does need people who can think and who have reading and math skills high enough that if he pays for them to take the licensing classes for mechanical/air conditioning/plumbing etc., they have a good chance of passing the exams. These exams are not easy. He no longer accepts GED applicants nor high school applicants that do not have some college classes or who have not already pursued licensing and procurred it because he has thrown so much money down the chasm for people who are illiterate and will not be able to pass these tests. On top of that, he created a basic logic exam (think mindbenders, Fallacy Detective type stuff, analogies, etc....basic, not something that would require a lot of formal logic training if one has been taught HOW to think or problem solve) that also includes very basic algebra 1 and writing a short memo. They have to get an 80% on his exam to be considered for hiring. The sad thing is that most of the applicants take one look at the exam and announce, "I can't pass that." They leave without even trying. Dad isn't certain if it is because they really could not do it or if they have a pride issue about being tested...possibly a combo of both.

 

Down the street, the florist has been looking for someone to train to eventually take over her business. She has a lovely floral shop and in this rural area, not all that much competition so she does a huge amount of the wedding, funeral, get-well business. She makes a very nice living and would be happy to fully train a partner and then hand over 49% of the business to that person so she can retire or at least slow way down. She can not find anyone. Not.one.single.qualified.person. It would be a great job for some non-college bound person who loves to be creative, work with plants, has an entrepreneurial spirit, etc. She's tried several times now and the reading/math skills of these twenty-somethings is just sooooo poor that she ends up having to let them go. She can not retain them as employees much less trust them with her business. It's very scary! She's worried that she'll be in ill health before she ever finds a partner and knows that in the current economic crisis in Michigan, she'll never find a buyer for the building and inventory, much less for the investment in building up the business.

 

I tried to get my niece, who has a 1 yr. old child to support and a dirt poor boyfriend whose a nice daddy, but no help on the financial front, to apply for that job. However, I wonder if she could handle it. She went to the public school down the road and spent the last two years of her high school career getting D's and E's...they basically "made up" credits for her so she could graduate. Her reading comprehension skills are pretty wonderful (she's a marvelous amateur poet), but I suspect that her math skills are quite poor and I don't know if she could begin to handle the accounting. She's such a creative soul and her own floral arrangements that she makes for her tiny rented efficiency (out of wildflowers & grasses from her grandpa's property) are a sight to behold. This could be a great thing for her. But, chances are, without going to CC and taking remedial math classes and then adding some accounting classes and maybe a business law class onto her resume, she probably couldn't really handle working into a partnership.

 

So, so, sad....these kids just don't have a bright future ahead of them.

 

Faith

[GoVanGogh]

We're also in TX. You should see the math here. My 4th grader is working on the same math level as the 7th grader next door.

Same here.

Yet I hear almost weekly, "You homeschool? But we have such a wonderful public school system."

It may be "wonderful" but it is still stuck with Texas standards and I want more than that for my child.

I have yet to find anyone in our public school system that has looked at our state standards and actually compared them with other states. They are just blindly following what the school district says. Then they are shocked when their children that graduated from high school near the top of their class struggles and fails in college. Seen that happen now with half dozen teens in our neighborhood. But I'm the crazy one for homeschooling. :lol:

[Halcyon]

HOLY SMACKS! I downloaded the 1950 homemaking exam. This stuff is brilliant!!! Not to mention the first question is startling and prescient.

 

I want my kids to ace this exam when they finish 9th grade -- it seems one would have so much common sense -- how to cook, how to organize, how to take care of themselves, how to remove stains!

 

http://nysl.nysed.gov/Archimages/87584.PDF

 

To be frank, I have no idea what the answers to some of those questions would be....#7?? Anyone know what they're looking for? :confused: But I love the hot iron question. Sweet!

[DawnM]

But this isn't he fault of the students or the teachers. When I first started teaching, ESL student were exempt from standardized tests (other than the ESL tests) until after their 3rd year of living in our country.

 

Welcome NCLB and special education AND 2nd year ESL students were no longer exempt. They had to be thrown into the mix.

 

Dawn

 

I think this is exactly the point! How are they hoping to accomplish ANYTHING with an exam (and with teaching to an exam) that has to accommodate such a diversity of people?! I know nothing about NY or the local diplomas the article mentioned, but I'm guessing that the local diplomas would more easily accommodate situations like an ESL student so that the Regents could go on being whatever traditionally higher standard it seems to have been. But they probably decided that it was hurting people's feelings and that everybody's self esteem was more important than allowing our children to understand that situations differ and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

This said, my dh the public health student is over here groaning because higher education is associated with better health--so how could I want to allow for all this diversity that adversely affects the population's health? But I'm an anthropologist--I say bring on the diversity! ;)

[Wheres Toto]

I think a lot of standardized tests actually show more about how well the person takes a test than their actually knowledge. In NJ, the required for graduation test is the HSPA taken in 11th grade. My oldest took it last year and received Advanced Proficiency (95-100%) on every section. She's a good student (A's, B's) but not a GREAT student, IYKWIM. A passing score is something like a 55%. I used to receive 100% on standardized test I took in school and I was a B/C student. I knew kids who drew pictures or did patterns filling in the dots because they just didn't care. This was back in the 80's.

 

My very first non-retail job I had to take generalized test that sounds similar to what FaithManor's dad offers - a little bit of logic, a little bit of math, some spelling/grammar, etc. I failed the typing test for the job, which was as a clerk/typist, but still was hired because I received the highest score they ever had on that test. Not because I was necessarily smarter than other people taking it. I just knew how to take a timed test. The third question on the test was a fairly complicated long division (no calculator allowed). I skipped it, did the rest of the test and came back to it at the end. Any one who went ahead and did the test in order would end up not finishing the test because of that one problem.

 

Schools today are dealing with a lot of issues they didn't have to deal with 40 years ago, or even 20 years ago. ESL students, mainstreamed students (who might actually do BETTER in smaller, more specific classes), increases in ADHD, Autism, teachers who have no control over what they teach, can't fail anyone and have to deal with parents who think their kids can do no wrong.

[stripe]

To be frank, I have no idea what the answers to some of those questions would be....#7?? Anyone know what they're looking for? :confused: But I love the hot iron question. Sweet!

 

The answers are at the end of the document, I think. For #7 it's 3, to be loved.

Edited February 8, 2012 by stripe

[Julie in Austin]

Someone could make a daily anti-stress devotional for hs moms that consists of nothing more than ps exam answers.

[Kathryn]

Someone could make a daily anti-stress devotional for hs moms that consists of nothing more than ps exam answers.

 

:lol:

[SunD]

This is why we were taught the five-paragraph essay. I'm giving away my age here, but I graduated in 2004. By that point I was attending a specialized school, and the students there were definitely of a higher caliber, but at my local PS that would have been considered a great effort.

 

Starting in sixth grade, we wrote essays pretty much weekly. There would be a prompt on the blackboard and we would go over, for the UMPTEENTH time, the format of the five-paragraph essay. This is what they looked like.

 

----

 

Say something about the topic. Pick a significant word and define or otherwise explain it in the second sentence. List three examples that support what you said about the topic.

 

Most importantly, restate your first example. Give some more information. Make up another sentence with filler words because a paragraph must have three sentences.

 

Second, restate your second example. Follow the instructions given for the last paragraph. Write one more sentence and you're done with the second paragraph.

 

Finally, restate your third example. Make this paragraph just like the others. Make sure it has three sentences.

 

In conclusion, restate your first sentence using different words. Say that it is supported by examples one, two, and three. Wrap it up with a quote, statistic, rhetorical question, or possible vague meaning of the topic.

 

----

 

No matter if spelling is horrendous, punctuation is nonexistent, the "supporting statements" are silly, or their handwriting is illegible. They're writing essays that can rate Basic on the LEAP test!

 

At that more specialized school, my very favorite English teacher received several one-page, five-paragraph "essays" for our first assigned paper. She handed them back and gently pointed out the length requirement (in PAGES) on the assignment sheet. One of the students responded, "But I don't know how to write an essay longer than five paragraphs. Do you just want me to do, like, six examples instead of three? That would make it eight paragraphs." :001_huh: And those students were supposedly the cream of the crop, from throughout the state!

[Virg]

Someone could make a daily anti-stress devotional for hs moms that consists of nothing more than ps exam answers.

 

:lol::lol:

[justamouse]

This is what bothers me about 'reform'. There IS no reform this, we've been fighting this battle since the 70s and going further into hell. The system needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.

 

One gloriously astute person in the local editorials said that he thinks all parents ought to pay 15,000 per child they have in school.

 

:001_huh: Really, there are no words for that level of disconnect.

 

I know I keep talking about the Marva Collins books, but she's been fighting the battle long and hard and says the $ IS the problem. It hasn't gotten better since we've been ignoring her and throwing more $ at it, so I'm inclined to believe she's on to something.

 

With writing like that as the example of what is expected to obtain a diploma, I should give my littles the rest of the year off, because they're already besting those seniors.

 

 

ETA, my daughter, a junior in PS, just won an award for an assignment on writing a 'Canterbury Tale'. I never would have accepted it. I told her so. But at this point, she already knows the playing field and knows her mediocre work will gain her honor status. Momma was NOT happy. Saddest thing is, is that I think this particular teacher is good, her assignments just are better suited to 7/8th graders, not juniors and seniors.

Edited February 8, 2012 by justamouse

[laughing lioness]

For that matter, I wasn't horribly prepared when I got to college, I had most of the basic skills down, but when I look back, I realize there was so much more that I should have and could have known going in!

 

:iagree:

 

I love Marva Collins, too. However, money is only the solution IF there is accountability attached to it. Hiring more admininstrators who can't be fired, instead of excellent, amazing teachers like Collins doesn't help the system.

Paying teachers serious money and demanding serious results would be a solution.

[prairiebird]

I am all for tracking. At my son's high school, students are tracked according to ability (testing, prior work) and recommendations (student, parents, teacher). The school places students but allows them to move up or down one track, but if they can't cut it, they move down. My son's English class began with 24 or so kids and was reduced to 12 by the end of first quarter. The removed students got their chance but were poorly placed -- and of those students all of them were there because of parental requests.

 

 

 

 

We had very flexable tracking at our school too. And we had a huge vocational ed department. I'm pretty sure they still have it there.

[The Girls' Mom]

My 11 year olds just read the sample for scoring a 3. Their words: "I hope that didn't get a good grade. It didn't make sense!"

[MBM]

We had very flexable tracking at our school too. And we had a huge vocational ed department. I'm pretty sure they still have it there.

 

Our public high school offers all sorts of options for different abilities and interests. I keep waiting for the school to disappoint me, but it hasn't happened yet. Not that I'm complaining!

 

:D

Edited February 8, 2012 by MBM
changed a word

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Faith, I would love to see your Dad's test. Would he give you a copy to share? :001_smile:

[justamouse]

T

ETA2: Also, a commenter linked a fascinating resource: long-ago Regents exams for NYState, downloadable as pdfs for your perusal. Wow. They are...challenging! I can't imagine most students today could pass them. Here's the link if you're interested in looking at them. I perused the Mathematics tests and the American History tests.....amazing.

 

I was giving Ds 12 the English exam from the 50s, Pt 1. He missed one. :001_smile:

 

Those tests are awesome. The Home Ec is amazing.

 

Lioness, I totally agree, there needs to be an extremely high level of accountability for the teachers, and admins, but I also think the teaching colleges need to get a grasp on reality. I keep wondering if reform starts there.

[lionfamily1999]

O/Tish... I'm reading G.K. Chesterton (on Eugenics) and he was talking about capitalism vs socialism.

 

What's interesting (and seems at least somewhat to do with this) is that he blames the stupidity of the working class on capitalism and the enslavement of them on socialism.

 

Capitalism led to the idea that man was a tool. Keep him just poor enough that he cannot leave for better wages (as if they existed). This led to a bunch of little hammers at home, growing up without either parent capable of caring for them, because they are both too busy working for just enough to keep on working. The little hammers become hoodlums. They have no supervision, no food, no restraint and their parents are too worn out to do anything about it. Now, the capitalist starts to have too many tools to choose from, but those tools are not of the same quality as their parents. They aren't respectful or strong, because they haven't been raised to be so.

 

The capitalist turns to the socialist and they work on stopping all the babymaking nonsense that's getting in their way. They make it illegal for the parents not to raise their children properly, without raising their wages so they can afford to parent their children. So, the same worn out hammers are expected to do more with the same amount they had to begin with (sort of like Egyptians telling the Israelites to makes bricks without straw).

 

At this point he ends up guessing at what can be done to fix this, versus what might be done to prolong it.

 

Over a hundred years later and it seems, to me, that the idea is to try and make the hammar think it's just as smart as the carpenter, without bothering to actually educate it. Like building a pretty world where all the mechanics read Dickens (albeit from Dalmation Press) and know the leading parties lines by heart, all the while ignorant that he's been raised like a mushroom.

The past has to be painted pitch black, that it may be worse than the present.

 

HA! That ended up way more than I expected.

[Kathleen in LV]

One gloriously astute person in the local editorials said that he thinks all parents ought to pay 15,000 per child they have in school.

 

I expect this person's intention was to just generate more money for schools. I personally disagree with that solution.

 

However, if parents did actually pay for their children's education, maybe, just maybe, they would require more accountability from the schools. When people make a decision about spending their own money, they are usually more discriminating than when they are getting "something for free". I'm not suggesting we actually adopt this approach, but the concept is food for thought.

[ocelotmom]

The answers are at the end of the document, I think. For #7 it's 3, to be loved.

I'd probably have chosen 5, as that seems to encompass 3 + more. It would be hard to feel truly emotionally secure without feeling loved for yourself, but I can see someone feeling loved for themselves but feeling insecure for other reasons.

[lionfamily1999]

I expect this person's intention was to just generate more money for schools. I personally disagree with that solution.

 

However, if parents did actually pay for their children's education, maybe, just maybe, they would require more accountability from the schools. When people make a decision about spending their own money, they are usually more discriminating than when they are getting "something for free". I'm not suggesting we actually adopt this approach, but the concept is food for thought.

If they did that, though, they'd have to make education optional. You can't force people to pay (or take away their children/arrest them for not paying) a service that is outside of their financial capabilities. It's an undue burden (I think).

 

So, we'd be back where we were when all schools were private schools and poor children uneducated.

 

Besides, while public schools may not charge tuition (in most cases), they still charge for other things. We used the ps system for a while and have found it cheaper to homeschool. The education itself isn't free, there is work involved, especially if the child wants to succeed.

[justamouse]

I expect this person's intention was to just generate more money for schools. I personally disagree with that solution.

 

However, if parents did actually pay for their children's education, maybe, just maybe, they would require more accountability from the schools. When people make a decision about spending their own money, they are usually more discriminating than when they are getting "something for free". I'm not suggesting we actually adopt this approach, but the concept is food for thought.

 

Oh, I disagree with it, too, I was just being sarcastic.:D Read Marva Collins' Way and you'll see what she did with nothing, and the results she got.

[ereks mom]

I am all for tracking. At my son's high school, students are tracked according to ability (testing, prior work) and recommendations (student, parents, teacher). The school places students but allows them to move up or down one track, but if they can't cut it, they move down.

 

I think this is great.

[creekland]

Can I just add this note about the Regents. Please don't be awed by them. They prep you so much that by the time you take them you have seen 75% of the questions on practice exams. I took them in the early 80's and clearly remember thinking, "Sweet! I did this essay in class already." They taught to the test back then as well. I don't think I missed more than 3 questions on an exam and that was Chemistry.

 

We never did this. We were well prepared, but had never seen any actual questions (or similar with different numbers/books) before sitting for the test.

[JenniferB]

I asked my oldest daughter to read that sample, and not telling her who wrote it, I asked her to analyze it. I asked her what grade she thought the writer was in. She said "third, or maybe second." When I told her that it was a high school level writing test, she was amazed. I told her that the person scoring the paper and the test passed that student. She responded, "Was the teacher drunk?"

 

I fear we are in for it as a nation. Lord have mercy on us all.

[beaners]

We never did this. We were well prepared, but had never seen any actual questions (or similar with different numbers/books) before sitting for the test.

 

Many of my classes included practice exams, old copies of exams, and review books based on the tests. It was a waste of time for those of us who already knew the material. I went to a "good suburban school" and it was the same with my friends at other schools. I graduated in 2003.

[Wheres Toto]

My daughter's high school has tracks and we have a county Vo-Tech school that they can attend for 1/2 days while doing the other 1/2 at their local school, or full day. The tracks are regular - math/science oriented/college bound, regular - not math/science oriented, Honors and AP. Students are placed by their 8th grade teachers but have the option to test into a higher track or decide to move to a lower track. A student can do Honors or AP just for certain subjects. My dd has done a mix of Honors, AP and regular classes depending on what her strengths are.

 

Our district is one that is in the top 5 of the state and is considered to have a lot of offerings. The parents are VERY involved in this school. It is also a magnet school for deaf students.

[Halcyon]

She responded, "Was the teacher drunk?"

 

:lol: You gotta laugh, or else......

[LMD]

OMGoodness, that homemaking exam! No wonder I stink (I nearly wrote 'suck' ;)) at this vocational homemaking thing...

 

I'm printing it off, DH will laugh at me. :D

[Ester Maria]

There could be some things not being said here. If we are talking about NYC we may very well be referring to someone who is ESL. Anyone above beginning ESL would be required to take that test, even if he/she had only been in the country for one year. I would be hard pressed to analyze a poem in Portuguese after only one year in the country.

 

I taught high school ESL for years and I could easily see this type of writing coming from my 2nd year students.

The ESL thing is an excuse. English is not even my second language (third, fourth... depending on how you count) and I was fully functionally literate in it before I ever set foot or lived in an anglophone country. English was not a spoken language in my family, I never attended an international school and I lived in a country notorious for the fact that its high school kids are more proficient in Latin than in English (a trend that has been sadly reversing lately), in which all the TV programs and movies were dubbed and there was no such thing back then as casually running into English all the time. Yet I knew English, and many other kids knew English well enough to apply for and attend US/UK universities after high school. Many educated Europeans speak English so well that you basically cannot tell them apart from native speakers in writing, it is only their accents that betray them, and most of them have never lived in an English-speaking environment. Whenever I hear ESLs being blamed for low tests scores, I chuckle, because I recall those cases and know that it cannot be reason behind it. ESL instruction in the US is often lacking because instruction as such is often lacking - it is not specifically a problem of children who have to learn to function in a different language. It may be difficult during the first year, but after two to three years, the "ESL factor" of that student should be completely erased. If they are not on par with native speakers after that time, while living in the country and *being educated in the language* (the crucial factor, as if you live in the country, but conduct all of your business in another language, it does not mean much - ask me how I know), something is seriously wrong.

[Dmmetler]

The ESL thing is an excuse. English is not even my second language (third, fourth... depending on how you count) and I was fully functionally literate in it before I ever set foot or lived in an anglophone country. English was not a spoken language in my family, I never attended an international school and I lived in a country notorious for the fact that its high school kids are more proficient in Latin than in English (a trend that has been sadly reversing lately), in which all the TV programs and movies were dubbed and there was no such thing back then as casually running into English all the time. Yet I knew English, and many other kids knew English well enough to apply for and attend US/UK universities after high school. Many educated Europeans speak English so well that you basically cannot tell them apart from native speakers in writing, it is only their accents that betray them, and most of them have never lived in an English-speaking environment. Whenever I hear ESLs being blamed for low tests scores, I chuckle, because I recall those cases and know that it cannot be reason behind it. ESL instruction in the US is often lacking because instruction as such is often lacking - it is not specifically a problem of children who have to learn to function in a different language. It may be difficult during the first year, but after two to three years, the "ESL factor" of that student should be completely erased. If they are not on par with native speakers after that time, while living in the country and *being educated in the language* (the crucial factor, as if you live in the country, but conduct all of your business in another language, it does not mean much - ask me how I know), something is seriously wrong.

 

I did my teaching internship with an ESL teacher, and her comment was that the biggest problem she had was that ESL instruction assumed a child was fluent and capable in their first language. And many of them weren't (this was in TX). The students who came to school speaking no or very little English, but who had been able to function in the equivalent to their current grade's classrooms in their home country without issue would generally catch up within a year to the degree that they could function quite well in the limited setting of a classroom (although they might have difficulty with idiomatic language and slang for years) and often needed very little ESL support-the main benefit for ESL instruction, for them, was to give them, on a regular basis, someone they could ask questions of about culture without feeling stupid. The students who came to school who hadn't had that level of proficiency-maybe they hadn't regularly attended school for one reason or another, or maybe they had learning issues in ANY language-but for whatever reason, they started out behind and stayed behind, because adding the difficulty of immersion in a new language on top of already being behind your age peers made it next to impossible to catch up.

[Ester Maria]

I did my teaching internship with an ESL teacher, and her comment was that the biggest problem she had was that ESL instruction assumed a child was fluent and capable in their first language. And many of them weren't (this was in TX). The students who came to school speaking no or very little English, but who had been able to function in the equivalent to their current grade's classrooms in their home country without issue would generally catch up within a year to the degree that they could function quite well in the limited setting of a classroom (although they might have difficulty with idiomatic language and slang for years) and often needed very little ESL support-the main benefit for ESL instruction, for them, was to give them, on a regular basis, someone they could ask questions of about culture without feeling stupid. The students who came to school who hadn't had that level of proficiency-maybe they hadn't regularly attended school for one reason or another, or maybe they had learning issues in ANY language-but for whatever reason, they started out behind and stayed behind, because adding the difficulty of immersion in a new language on top of already being behind your age peers made it next to impossible to catch up.

True. My observations are in line with this too.

[cindergretta]

I did my teaching internship with an ESL teacher, and her comment was that the biggest problem she had was that ESL instruction assumed a child was fluent and capable in their first language. And many of them weren't (this was in TX). The students who came to school speaking no or very little English, but who had been able to function in the equivalent to their current grade's classrooms in their home country without issue would generally catch up within a year to the degree that they could function quite well in the limited setting of a classroom (although they might have difficulty with idiomatic language and slang for years) and often needed very little ESL support-the main benefit for ESL instruction, for them, was to give them, on a regular basis, someone they could ask questions of about culture without feeling stupid. The students who came to school who hadn't had that level of proficiency-maybe they hadn't regularly attended school for one reason or another, or maybe they had learning issues in ANY language-but for whatever reason, they started out behind and stayed behind, because adding the difficulty of immersion in a new language on top of already being behind your age peers made it next to impossible to catch up.

 

I was thinking this. My sister is raising her dc in Germany. English is their first language and German is their second, but they were born there and attend school there. They are quite proficient in both languages with no learning barriers, if that makes sense. I would expect them to do equally well on an exam presented in English and one presented in German on materials they have been taught.

[Mommy22alyns]

On the plus side, those of us homeschooling children older than age 8 or 9 can quit now.

 

I know, right? Some of those excerpts look like what Rebecca might write on her own. Or her spelling might actually be better. :001_huh: Yep, I had her read it and she corrected about 5 things on her own.

[creekland]

Many of my classes included practice exams, old copies of exams, and review books based on the tests. It was a waste of time for those of us who already knew the material. I went to a "good suburban school" and it was the same with my friends at other schools. I graduated in 2003.

 

I graduated back in the mid 80's. I have no idea what they do now. My mom worked there for years before retiring and has said it's not the same as what it was. I think education has declined in most areas.

[creekland]

And now, there is research to prove them wrong... declining numbers of kids prepared for, let alone entering, STEM fields (among other things).

 

I've been telling them that for years (that good kids can't succeed no matter what). They need a foundation and parents assume that foundation is coming from the school. I feel for many academically talented kids who aren't getting as good of a foundation as they could be. Some do still succeed, but it's a bit of a rough transition to college. Of course, colleges have had to morph to accepting less prepared students too.

[GoVanGogh]

The ESL thing is an excuse. ... Many educated Europeans speak English so well that you basically cannot tell them apart from native speakers in writing, it is only their accents that betray them, and most of them have never lived in an English-speaking environment.

I did my teaching internship with an ESL teacher, and her comment was that the biggest problem she had was that ESL instruction assumed a child was fluent and capable in their first language. And many of them weren't (this was in TX).

Both quotes are good food for thought.

We were in France last year and I was amazed at how well the French spoke English.

I kept telling my DH that the French spoke better (more proper) English than Americans! :glare: We had extended conversations with two different people that spoke French as their second language and English as their third language (they had immigrated into France) and even they spoke better English than most people here in the south. :tongue_smilie:

 

We live in Texas and ESL is a large issue in our school system. I had never heard anyone say before that ESL students may not even be fluent in their native language. That does explain something that is not openly talked about in our area.

Our school district is fairly large and encompasses several suburbs - some schools are in areas with extreme wealth and some with extreme poverty. Funding is the same across the district. Yet the test scores vary wildly. We live in the wealthier area (moved here 20 years ago before it was) and have numerous neighbors from India, Korea and Japan. Their students are/were ESL and are now at the top of their class. I work with a charity on the other side of town and notice that their children never progress beyond ESL, despite having the same resources at school. Are the schools giving the students a pass because they are ESL? Are they assuming a baseline that simply isn't there?

 

Like I said, good food for thought.

[Happy2BaMom]

We live in the wealthier area (moved here 20 years ago before it was) and have numerous neighbors from India, Korea and Japan. Their students are/were ESL and are now at the top of their class. I work with a charity on the other side of town and notice that their children never progress beyond ESL, despite having the same resources at school. Are the schools giving the students a pass because they are ESL? Are they assuming a baseline that simply isn't there?

 

Um, perhaps I shouldn't say this, but it is mostly the family that influences whether their children proceed beyond the "ESL stage". Kids from the countries you mentioned largely have parents and a home culture that expects them to succeed and there is support and consequences for not.

 

When I taught elementary school, I had white kids failing, some Hispanic kids excelling, and a rainbow of other children all over the map. In every single case, it came down to home/parental support and expectations.

[GoVanGogh]

Um, perhaps I shouldn't say this, but it is mostly the family that influences whether their children proceed beyond the "ESL stage". Kids from the countries you mentioned largely have parents and a home culture that expects them to succeed and there is support and consequences for not.

 

I know. That is why I found the ESL topic interesting. I always see it blamed on the schools and teachers, yet I know these schools have the same resources since they are in the same district. It shows how important family support/culture is.

[NavyWifeandMommy]

HOLY SMACKS! I downloaded the 1950 homemaking exam. This stuff is brilliant!!! Not to mention the first question is startling and prescient.

 

I want my kids to ace this exam when they finish 9th grade -- it seems one would have so much common sense -- how to cook, how to organize, how to take care of themselves, how to remove stains!

 

http://nysl.nysed.gov/Archimages/87584.PDF

 

 

 

I cannot get the link to work

[KrissiK]

I did my teaching internship with an ESL teacher, and her comment was that the biggest problem she had was that ESL instruction assumed a child was fluent and capable in their first language. And many of them weren't (this was in TX)p.

:iagree:

My mom taught K for years in a low-income school that was very high ESL kids and she can totally attest to this. She'd say, "Those kids can't speak English, but they can't even speak Spanish because their parents don't talk to them." It was a very difficult job.

[stripe]

I cannot get the link to work

Not sure why, as it's worked for several others, but you can reconstruct it via the link Halcyon gave in the first post to find it and any other tests you want to look at.

 

http://www.nysl.nysed.gov/regentsexams.htm

[stripe]

:iagree:

My mom taught K for years in a low-income school that was very high ESL kids and she can totally attest to this. She'd say, "Those kids can't speak English, but they can't even speak Spanish because their parents don't talk to them." It was a very difficult job.

This is a major problem. And it's awful to think what it must be like to be incapable of expressing oneself in any language.

[Meriwether]

I was giving Ds 12 the English exam from the 50s, Pt 1. He missed one. :001_smile:

 

Those tests are awesome. The Home Ec is amazing.

 

Lioness, I totally agree, there needs to be an extremely high level of accountability for the teachers, and admins, but I also think the teaching colleges need to get a grasp on reality. I keep wondering if reform starts there.

 

Absolutely. I was a good teacher, but I could have been better. I only had one good education course. I have learned so much about education since I started researching to teach my own kids. There are fascinating, exciting education philosophies. Why aren't they being taught - debated - in the education courses? And all the practical skills that could be taught, but aren't! If I went back to teaching now, I would much better prepared.

[mlkmnsgrl]

I cannot get the link to work

 

On my computer it just took a long time to load. Click it then come back to another tab/window and do something else for a few minutes. Eventually it should show up. Not sure why, but they all seemed to load slower than most pdf docs. Maybe the version they used?

[zaichiki]

Then you have the whole diversity thing - whether due to environment (e.g. ESL) or native ability, some people will have to work way harder than others to achieve a lesser result, and said result may be meaningless to them in substance.

 

But it's just like real life. Some work very hard and don't achieve as much... some have disabilities, some are functioning in a second language... it doesn't matter. We are measured (at work and in our lives) by our achievements, not by our effort.

 

Sorry, but that's the way it is. (I say this as someone who has close family members functioning in a second language WITH dyslexia. It's life.)

 

It's also true that someone who has developed the habit of exerting a lot of effort will most likely benefit from it down the road. And those who don't put in any effort will most likely get bit by that, too.

[zaichiki]

The ESL thing is an excuse.

 

snip

 

ESL instruction in the US is often lacking because instruction as such is often lacking - it is not specifically a problem of children who have to learn to function in a different language. It may be difficult during the first year, but after two to three years, the "ESL factor" of that student should be completely erased.

 

My dh came to the US with *no* English just a year before high school. He was not placed in ESL classes. His family was warned, by other recent immigrants, to keep him out of the ESL classes: they were the kiss of death. Just a couple of years later the kids who *were* in ESL classes were still struggling. Dh was in all honors classes and had gained admission to a local prestigious (admission by exam only) high school.

[JennifersLost]

What's funny about this (in a sad way) is that when I was taking the "hard" Regents exams in the late 1980s, they were considered EASY!!!!

 

We sweated the AP exams, and thought the Regents were a piece of cake. Granted, I went to a rigorous school in a wealthy area - probably not the same experience as other areas in the state.

 

I'm so glad we homeschooled our kids so rigorously for a number of years. Right now my 9th grader is in public school. He is reading ONE novel for English this entire year - an Agatha Christie novel.

 

Sigh.

 

I told him he'd better do a lot of reading at home. (He does.)

[AdventureMoms]

What's funny about this (in a sad way) is that when I was taking the "hard" Regents exams in the late 1980s, they were considered EASY!!!!

 

We sweated the AP exams, and thought the Regents were a piece of cake. Granted, I went to a rigorous school in a wealthy area - probably not the same experience as other areas in the state.

 

I'm so glad we homeschooled our kids so rigorously for a number of years. Right now my 9th grader is in public school. He is reading ONE novel for English this entire year - an Agatha Christie novel.

 

Sigh.

 

I told him he'd better do a lot of reading at home. (He does.)

 

Yup. I graduated in NYS in 1999. There was still a Regents/local diploma. I lived in a poor rural area with a decent (relatively) school system. Even then, we all knew the Regents were dumbed down, and they weren't nearly as bad as the newest ones!!

 

In HS for English, we were supposed to read one Shakespeare play per year. That was usually all the reading we did. In 9th I had an older teacher with a reputation for being terribly hard - we had to diagram sentences, and we read Romeo & Juliet AND The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, IN THE SAME YEAR. This was shocking to our little systems at the time, but is scary in retrospect.

 

Thank goodness, in 12th grade we got the teacher who liked movies. We didn't have to read anything that year, we just watched a video of Hamlet. :lol::lol::lol: Also, the 10th grade teacher didn't bother with any required reading, I'm frankly not sure what we did during 10th grade English. I think we wrote a lot of bad poetry.

 

So, my school required reading list for the entire 4 years of high school:

Romeo & Juliet

Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner

Macbeth

 

My first semester college English course was shocking, to say the least, and I was at an Engineering school, so it was still dumbed down. Thankfully I have always liked to read, and always read more than required, but I really do wish that more had been required of me in HS. It's frightening that they are requiring LESS now.