Specific examples of legalism?

[Audrey]

I think that this means extra-biblical teachings/instructions/dictates, but with the myriad of interpretational possibilities over the Bible, what really counts as legalism?

 

I don't really want a debate over it, but I do want to understand exactly what people are calling legalistic. So, to that end, what are specific examples that YOU consider legalism, even if another denomination may disagree.

[FairyMom]

I'll bite. Legalism, to me, is following a man-made law to the detriment of people. Usually legalism and hypocrisy go hand in hand, in my experience.

[Audrey]

I'll bite. Legalism, to me, is following a man-made law to the detriment of people. Usually legalism and hypocrisy go hand in hand, in my experience.

 

Okay, but what is an example of a man-made law that fits your definition of legalism? It is not hard to find Biblical justification for many, many things, nor hard to find Scripture that could be interpreted to justify something.

 

I am a pragmatic thinker. I need concrete examples. I am trying to remain objective and work through some IRL issues at hand. :001_smile:

Edited January 16, 2012 by Audrey

[Tiberia]

In my former church, the guys were taught to have their shirts tucked in and belts on to be considered true seekers/believers. Facial hair was allowed for guys, but frowned upon if they wanted to be in any position of leadership.

 

Smoking and drinking were considered weaknesses, no matter how much or how little people did it. R rated movies were frowned upon and considered a weakness. These things were not taught about as outright sins, but there was a certain pressure to conform. If you didn't conform, you were considered weak, not a real seeker, immature in faith, etc. You weren't shunned, but there was a subtle rejection.

 

THis was a popular, charismatic, evangelical church that played awesome contemporary worship music and considered itself cool. The new "rules" are not in the Bible. To me, Christian legalism is where religion becomes a set of man-made rules, usually culturally based, which totally miss/bypass/ignore the grace and freedom of Christ.

[pdalley]

Legalism - if you don't do x, y, z you are not truly saved.

 

If you are a woman and cut your hair, wear makeup, wear a skirt, work outside the home, you are not a christian.

 

If you are a man and you don't cut your hair, don't work outside the home, don't spank your kids and run your household you aren't a christian.

 

If you listen to certain types of music you aren't a christian. If you eat or drink certain things you are not a christian. If you associate with people that the 'church' considers 'unclean' (I can't think of a better description unless its sinner but I think we all are sinners so...)

 

If you truly believe you'll be healed, your kids will be perfect and never disobey. If you truly believe you will always have plenty of money, etc..

 

If you don't believe in creation as certain factions believe the Bible says it occurred then you are a christian.

 

Just a few things that spring to mind that I've seen IRL.

[AuntieM]

Joe is a conservative Christian, and believes it is sinful to consume alcohol. One day Fred asks him to help with a household move. Fred has packed some of his belongings in strong wooden wine crates that were given to him by Sam. Joe helps Fred move, but outspokenly refuses to handle the vintner's crates because they were made to contain alcoholic beverages.

 

Tony, a devout Catholic, is asked by a friend to serve as in a wedding. Close to the event, Tony realizes that his friend is not Catholic, but is actually getting married in the church of a different denomination. In a pickle, Tony conveniently "forgets" his tuxedo jacket so a substitute takes his place in escorting a bridesmaid down the aisle. So, he avoids participating in a religious ritual of a different denomination.

 

Okay, these sound outlandish, but both stories are true. :tongue_smilie: Both are examples of taking a tenet of a faith and stretching it into a practice that was never intended.

[Scarlett]

I'll bite. Legalism, to me, is following a man-made law to the detriment of people. Usually legalism and hypocrisy go hand in hand, in my experience.

 

The way the Pharisees added to the law....such as insisting upon washing up to the elbow...and taking the Sabbath to the extreme by saying Jesus was a 'sinner' because he healed someone on the Sabbath.

 

Traditions of men taught as scripture.

 

I see a difference between legalism and extra Biblical. Maybe only slightly though.

[Scarlett]

Joe is a conservative Christian, and believes it is sinful to consume alcohol. One day Fred asks him to help with a household move. Fred has packed some of his belongings in strong wooden wine crates that were given to him by Sam. Joe helps Fred move, but outspokenly refuses to handle the vintner's crates because they were made to contain alcoholic beverages.

 

 

I was thinking about this....I believe it is wrong to smoke...but I wouldn't refuse to help move boxes that once contained cigarettes!

 

Tony, a devout Catholic, is asked by a friend to serve as in a wedding. Close to the event, Tony realizes that his friend is not Catholic, but is actually getting married in the church of a different denomination. In a pickle, Tony conveniently "forgets" his tuxedo jacket so a substitute takes his place in escorting a bridesmaid down the aisle. So, he avoids participating in a religious ritual of a different denomination.

 

I would also refuse to participate in a religious ritual of another religion....but I think Tony compounded his situation by lying. Also, I find it weird that he wouldn't kow his friend is not Catholic!

 

Okay, these sound outlandish, but both stories are true. :tongue_smilie: Both are examples of taking a tenet of a faith and stretching it into a practice that was never intended.

 

I also think that a lot of things that are a matter of one's own conscience...well, there are things that I refrain from that I don't go around making a big issue of to those who do.

[fairfarmhand]

I feel that if the Bible figures something is important there will be multiple passages telling people to do it or not.

 

Meaning that some people who build a whole life philosophy around a single verse could be legalists.

 

Legalists also tend to point out other's flaws, and build up their own egos at the expense of others.

[twoxcell]

Anything someone adds to the teachings of scripture, and/or anything presented as a means for earning salvation. Examples; eat this not that, celebrate this not that, dress this way not that way, etc.

[fairfarmhand]

In my former church, the guys were taught to have their shirts tucked in and belts on to be considered true seekers/believers. Facial hair was allowed for guys, but frowned upon if they wanted to be in any position of leadership.

 

Smoking and drinking were considered weaknesses, no matter how much or how little people did it. R rated movies were frowned upon and considered a weakness. These things were not taught about as outright sins, but there was a certain pressure to conform. If you didn't conform, you were considered weak, not a real seeker, immature in faith, etc. You weren't shunned, but there was a subtle rejection.

 

THis was a popular, charismatic, evangelical church that played awesome contemporary worship music and considered itself cool. The new "rules" are not in the Bible. To me, Christian legalism is where religion becomes a set of man-made rules, usually culturally based, which totally miss/bypass/ignore the grace and freedom of Christ.

Totally:iagree: w the bolded.

[Little Nyssa]

Audrey, to me legalism doesn't have to do with the source of a rule. Legalism could have to do with a rule that is straight from the Bible, or made up yesterday.

 

It is when one takes that rule and makes it a universal for all people, at all times, in all circumstances, and one considers oneself better or more spiritual than other people who break the rule, no matter what their reason might be.

 

And, one starts to think that obeying that one rule is the main purpose of life!

HTH

[twoxcell]

To me, Christian legalism is where religion becomes a set of man-made rules, usually culturally based, which totally miss/bypass/ignore the grace and freedom of Christ.

:iagree:

[elegantlion]

These are some that I've encountered:

 

Not reading certain books, certainly not mythology. Classical homeschooling would be akin following Satan. Owning or reading religious texts of other religions. Certain people in my family would have a fit if they knew I owned a Qur'an.

 

Not listening to certain music, even as adults.

 

Smoking

 

Drinking, even in the privacy of your own home. I know a few people that liked a glass of wine with dinner, that knowledge was whispered in certain company. Plus you would check a restaurant before ordering alcohol, in case any of the fellow church members were eating there (smaller town).

 

Being a YEC as part of your salvation

 

No R rated movies

 

No association with people in "known religious cults" <--I'll leave their definition out

 

Playing cards, even solitaire. We could never take our playing cards to grandma's house when we were kids.

 

Wearing skirts above the knee (that one was personal. It was the 70s, I was like 7)

 

Attending church without your spouse (my mom had this issue, was practically skewered by the those wonderful church ladies :ack2: because my dad did not attend with us)

[AuntieM]

I was thinking about this....I believe it is wrong to smoke...but I wouldn't refuse to help move boxes that once contained cigarettes!

 

 

 

I would also refuse to participate in a religious ritual of another religion....but I think Tony compounded his situation by lying. Also, I find it weird that he wouldn't kow his friend is not Catholic!

 

I know, isn't that silly? I'm guessing the bride had a gazillion bridesmaids and maybe the groom was grasping at straws to wrangle up enough friends! Now that I think of it, maybe his friend was Catholic but marrying a Methodist girl, so it wasn't a Catholic ceremony? (ETA and that's why he didn't realize it until the last minute?) Anyway, I agree, the whole thing was not only rude but ridiculous. It was many years ago, though, and I think things were stricter then.

 

FWIW, I used the word "ritual" facetiously... I forget that tone is hard to read.

 

 

 

I also think that a lot of things that are a matter of one's own conscience...well, there are things that I refrain from that I don't go around making a big issue of to those who do.

. Edited January 16, 2012 by AuntieM

[Halcyon]

Legalism - if you don't do x, y, z you are not truly saved.

 

If you are a woman and cut your hair, wear makeup, wear a skirt, work outside the home, you are not a christian.

 

If you are a man and you don't cut your hair, don't work outside the home, don't spank your kids and run your household you aren't a christian.

 

If you listen to certain types of music you aren't a christian. If you eat or drink certain things you are not a christian. If you associate with people that the 'church' considers 'unclean' (I can't think of a better description unless its sinner but I think we all are sinners so...)

 

If you truly believe you'll be healed, your kids will be perfect and never disobey. If you truly believe you will always have plenty of money, etc..

 

If you don't believe in creation as certain factions believe the Bible says it occurred then you are a christian.

 

Just a few things that spring to mind that I've seen IRL.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Veritaserum]

Legalism - if you don't do x, y, z you are not truly saved.

 

If you are a woman and cut your hair, wear makeup, wear a skirt, work outside the home, you are not a christian.

 

If you are a man and you don't cut your hair, don't work outside the home, don't spank your kids and run your household you aren't a christian.

 

If you listen to certain types of music you aren't a christian. If you eat or drink certain things you are not a christian. If you associate with people that the 'church' considers 'unclean' (I can't think of a better description unless its sinner but I think we all are sinners so...)

 

If you truly believe you'll be healed, your kids will be perfect and never disobey. If you truly believe you will always have plenty of money, etc..

 

If you don't believe in creation as certain factions believe the Bible says it occurred then you are a christian.

 

Just a few things that spring to mind that I've seen IRL.

 

This is how I think of it, too. I think you'll find legalists in all faiths. Some personalities are like that. :tongue_smilie: Certain sects are inherently more legalistic than others.

[Xuzi]

To me, legalism is when so many "Letters" are added to the law, that the "Spirit" (pun intended) is lost.

 

I agree with a PP who mentioned the Pharasies and all the rules they added to Sabbath Day observance, etc. Perhaps well intentioned, but off the mark.

[Embassy]

Speaking as a former legalist here. In practical terms it would look like someone putting rules/standards above loving people, but it boils down to the belief that doing good things will put you in right standing with God. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone acting like a legalist who didn't have that belief.

[HiddenJewel]

Legalism to me is when someone follows a particular practice (wearing dresses only, wearing hats in church, etc.) and looks down on others who do not do those things and considers them lesser Christians.

[BigMamaBird]

I was thinking about this....I believe it is wrong to smoke...but I wouldn't refuse to help move boxes that once contained cigarettes!

 

 

 

I would also refuse to participate in a religious ritual of another religion....but I think Tony compounded his situation by lying. Also, I find it weird that he wouldn't kow his friend is not Catholic!

 

 

 

I also think that a lot of things that are a matter of one's own conscience...well, there are things that I refrain from that I don't go around making a big issue of to those who do.

 

I agree with Scarlett about not participating in things that you personally disagree with.

 

I know the Duggars get things hoppin' around here, but I'm going to risk dragging them out for a sec. I don't agree with most of that family's lifestyle, to me it seems very rigid. But I have always been impressed with how they stick to their standards while not trying to foist their ideology onto others. Their cousin who lived with them for example. Or the trip they took to San Fransisco. You know the producers were salivating for some shocked reactions from the parents, but I thought it was sweet how the Mom pointed out the similarities they shared with the people of SF; embracing love, etc.

 

To me, a BIG part of legalism is how you react to those who don't share your convictions. If someone wants to wear only skirts and grow their hair to their butt, but can graciously accept those who choose not to, that doesn't scream "Legalism" to me. It's people who look down on others and become self-righteous that get my red flags flying.

[twoxcell]

I know the Duggars get things hoppin' around here, but I'm going to risk dragging them out for a sec. I don't agree with most of that family's lifestyle, to me it seems very rigid. But I have always been impressed with how they stick to their standards while not trying to foist their ideology onto others. Their cousin who lived with them for example. Or the trip they took to San Fransisco. You know the producers were salivating for some shocked reactions from the parents, but I thought it was sweet how the Mom pointed out the similarities they shared with the people of SF; embracing love, etc.

 

To me, a BIG part of legalism is how you react to those who don't share your convictions. If someone wants to wear only skirts and grow their hair to their butt, but can graciously accept those who choose not to, that doesn't scream "Legalism" to me. It's people who look down on others and become self-righteous that get my red flags flying

:iagree:

[mytwomonkeys]

an example of legalism to me would be like zero tolerance in the school system. it takes nothing into account & there is no flexibility to look at situations individually.

[Onceuponatime]

Haven't read the other answers but here is what I have seen it look like:

 

No kitchen in a church building

No Eating in a church building

No musical instruments in a church building

No songs sung that were written after 1950

No women wearing pants to worship services

Men not being allowed to serve unless wearing ties

No power point projectors

 

I can think of TONS more but it might be stepping on some toes

[LG Gone Wild]

an example of legalism to me would be like zero tolerance in the school system. it takes nothing into account & there is no flexibility to look at situations individually.

 

Ooh. Zero tolerance policies are good example.

[Nakia]

Salvation comes to us freely when we accept Christ as our personal savior. It is by God's grace that we are saved. Basically I think legalism is "requiring" more than that for salvation. Jesus plainly said He is "the way, the truth, and the life." Salvation is about what Jesus did for us, not what about what we can do to earn or deserve it. He didn't say that if you have a drink, you're out. He didn't say if you dance, you're out. He didn't say that if a woman cuts her hair and wears make-up, she's out. He didn't say that if you don't tithe, you're out. The list goes on and on.

[Sputterduck]

Legalism is being extremely rigid about rules. Rules and rules and more rules, which are often extra-Biblical. It goes along with being graceless. Also, it's often coupled with a lack of true love for your neighbors.

[milovany]

Good discussion. I don't believe a blanket statement about "doing more than simply having faith to be saved" defines legalism, because we are clearly taught that there's a race to run (which involves real effort). We DO need to develop practices that are good for our souls. It's been my experience, though, that legalism results from people being concerned with how others are running their race (practicing their faith). If we can keep our eyes on our own plate, legalism has little room to take root and grow.

 

Specifics? Under the guidance of a priest, fasting a certain way may have been prescribed for me, but if I then think others should be fasting that way, that would be me putting a law on them that ought not be there. Things like that.

Edited January 17, 2012 by milovaný

[KrissiK]

A gf's uncle is shunning his daughter because she's divorcing her husband because of infidelity. Says if she remarries she's going to hell. That's legalism.

[simka2]

I think that this means extra-biblical teachings/instructions/dictates, but with the myriad of interpretational possibilities over the Bible, what really counts as legalism?

 

I don't really want a debate over it, but I do want to understand exactly what people are calling legalistic. So, to that end, what are specific examples that YOU consider legalism, even if another denomination may disagree.

 

 

Hmmm..... that is tricky. What if someone is a Muslim? Can they be legalistic? I couldn't consider their teaching extra-biblical as that is not their Holy book. What about someone who is Jewish? I think I have even read a book where a witch refers to the coven she left as being too "legalistic."

 

I do not think extra-biblical teachings or rules by themselves are legalistic, unless they meet some additional criteria.

 

Also, what about those who believe things that are in the Bible, but to a degree that it stifles and wounds others?

 

...and those Christian's who do have extra-biblical teachings, but are very far from being legalistic?

 

Legalism involves some "other" that I cannot put my finger on. It isn't the standards themselves that are legalistic, it is how they are enforced. There has to be a "harsh judgement" against someone or oneself, for the line to be crossed into legalism.

 

 

Just thinking out loud. Some of the most legalistic people I have met are "Bible only" types and some of the least legalistic have all sorts of extra-biblical material. I have also seen it vice versa.

 

For me legalism involves a certain rigidness in non-essential matters. Making a mountain out of a molehill, neglecting the weightier matters to focus on the small things.

Edited January 17, 2012 by simka2

[LG Gone Wild]

 

For me legalism involves a certain rigidness in non-essential matters. Making a mountain out of a molehill, neglecting the weightier matters to focus on the small things.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

The best definitions and explanations of why legalism is wrong:

 

Romans 4

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

 

Galatians 5

So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law. For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace. You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth? It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough! I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.

 

For you have been called to live in freedom, For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.†But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another. So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves.

 

 

Galatians 3

Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

 

 

I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.†The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

 

 

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.â€So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.†This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.â€

 

 

 

For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ.There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

 

 

Galatians 5, Romans 4 and Galatians 3

 

 

it boils down to the belief that doing good things will put you in right standing with God.

:iagree:and so does Paul... and the Holy Spirit, God Himself.

 

Good discussion. I don't believe a blanket statement about "doing more than simply having faith to be saved" defines legalism, because we are clearly taught that there's a race to run (which involves real effort). We DO need to develop practices that are good for our souls. It's been my experience, though, that legalism results from people being concerned with how others are running their race (practicing their faith). If we can keep our eyes on our own plate, legalism has little room to take root and grow.

 

Specifics? Under the guidance of a priest, fasting a certain way may have been prescribed for me, but if I then think others should be fasting that way, that would be me putting a law on them that ought not be there. Things like that.

:iagree:

[6packofun]

I think Tim Challies said that legalism is "the fear of freedom" and I think that's a good starting point because I see legalism as being more concerned or overly concerned with the letter of the law--and extending that letter--rather than the spirit of the law.

 

Here is something I found which explains that and it leads into what I was thinking about how the Pharisees were appalled that Jesus would heal someone on the Sabbath because it was considered by them to be "work":

 

The Law lays it down that the Sabbath Day is to be kept holy, and that on it no work is to be done. That is a great principle. But these Jewish legalists had a passion for definition. So they asked: What is work? All kinds of things were classified as work. For instance, to carry a burden on the Sabbath Day is to work. But next a burden has to be defined. So the Scribal Law lays it down that a burden is ‘food equal in weight to a dried fig, enough wine for mixing in a goblet, milk enough for one swallow, honey enough to put upon a wound, oil enough to anoint a small member, water enough to moisten an eye-salve, paper enough to write a customs house notice upon, ink enough to write two letters of the alphabet, reed enough to make a pen’—and so on endlessly. So they spent endless hours arguing whether a man could or could not lift a lamp from one place to another on the Sabbath, whether a tailor committed a sin if he went out with a needle in his robe, whether a woman might wear a brooch or false hair, even if a man might go out on the Sabbath with artificial teeth or an artificial limb, if a man might lift his child on the Sabbath Day. These things to them were the essence of religion. Their religion was a legalism of petty rules and regulations.

 

Source: http://bible.org/seriespage/fatal-failures-religion-2-legalism-matthew-517-48

 

The "letter of the law" here is all of the activities and rules associated with the Sabbath day, when the spirit or heart of the law was meant to provide a day devoted to the worship (not just church/temple, but in LIFE) of the Lord.

Edited January 17, 2012 by 6packofun
add

[mytwomonkeys]

when i think of examples from the bible, legalism is apparent when the pharisees get angry with jesus for healing on the sabbath. they were so caught up in the rules that they couldn't see anything good in what he had done. this constantly occurred with them.

 

milovany, i think you nailed it when you said legalism is focusing on how others live out their faith instead of focusing on themselves. it comes back to the speck in a brother's eye when there is a telephone pole in your own.

[Ester Maria]

(I really appreciate your answers and thank you for not having quoted me, because I really did change my mind about posting that. Thank you for your understanding, I appreciated reading your responses.)

Edited January 17, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Caitilin]

EM,

 

I think this is one of those Dr. Seuss situations: those who mind do not matter, and those who matter don't mind. :001_smile:

 

Personally, I would consider myself so ignorant of actual Judaism that I could not possibly have an opinion on it as legalistic or otherwise. (And I am reverting to a faith that is full of what outsiders would perceive as rules, so I understand what you mean.) :grouphug:

[mytwomonkeys]

ester maria, even if someone lives rigid and strict that isn't legalistic in the sense that i think this thread is referencing. i think the legalism in question here is whether or not you hold everyone else within your same faith to the same standard in which you yourself live. many of the examples referenced here aren't black and white rules laid out that everyone agrees upon, and that's where interpretation comes in and application becomes muddy.

 

with christianity it gets extra sticky because there are so many various denominations & beliefs, etc. even on TWTM forums within a christian thread it will vary greatly, even though all posters express a unified faith.

 

like you, i am very strict in many areas of my life, including no friendships of the opposite sex, i believe in a literal creation, i very rarely watch rated R movies, we do not drink, etc. however, i don't make my sisters feel bad about themselves for living differently. when my parents visit, they are welcome to drink wine in our home. my best friend currently lives with her boyfriend while i waited to have sex until marriage; it is not an issue in our friendship though and never will be. with myself i have a strict standard & i'm sure it may look stringent to those reading. it isn't rules i adhere too but true conviction. and i understand that conviction varies from person to person. this is where i am in my faith right now. with others i trust their journey is working itself out as well.

[Heather in Neverland]

Legalism is turning a rib issue into a spine issue. Spine issues are those that affect your salvation... Like the deity of Christ. If you say you do not believe Jesus was/is God's son then you are not a Christian. Period.

 

A rib issue would be like head covering. It is a PERSONAL conviction... Not a salvation issue but some people/churches/denominations take a rib issue and blow it out of proportion until it becomes a spine issue.

 

I grew up in one of those churches. They had a booklet called "The 29 Prominent Teachings". I imagine when it was first written it was supposed to be a guideline for Christian behavior but as I was growing up it became 29 ways to end up in hell.

 

Like don't go to R rated movies. Probably good advice for Christians but it was taught to us like anyone who goes to an R rated movie is going to hell. :glare:

 

Most sentences that end with "or you will go to hell" are usually a form of legalism. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

.

[Daisy]

Salvation comes to us freely when we accept Christ as our personal savior. It is by God's grace that we are saved. Basically I think legalism is "requiring" more than that for salvation. Jesus plainly said He is "the way, the truth, and the life." Salvation is about what Jesus did for us, not what about what we can do to earn or deserve it. He didn't say that if you have a drink, you're out. He didn't say if you dance, you're out. He didn't say that if a woman cuts her hair and wears make-up, she's out. He didn't say that if you don't tithe, you're out. The list goes on and on.

 

Exactly. I don't have a problem with people who choose to do or not do certain things out of personal conviction, but when they rely on these rules to "save them" they are on thin ice.

 

One woman may wear head-coverings out of a genuine desire to follow what she believes is an interpretation of Scripture. Another does it because she is under the impression that her salvation depends upon it. There's the difference.

 

I'd be hard pressed to arbitrarily create a list because most of this depends on the intent of the heart.

 

We create a "family culture" that from the outside looking in MIGHT appear legalistic. However, none of us believes that by following our particular family culture that we are saving anyone. We simply feel our choices are the best for our family.

[Happy]

Here's a non-religious example...

 

Texas is a great place to homeschool. When we moved to Texas from our years in Europe, I knew what I needed to do to homeschool. Not much. We had never lived in this school district so no withdrawal was needed. All we needed to do was start our homeschool life here.

 

Then...

 

A local support group leader totally confused me by INSISTING that I must send a letter to the local school district informing them that we had moved here and were homeschooling.

 

Talk about confused....

 

I knew what was required, but this woman pushed hard.

 

Finally I consulted an expert and was reassured of the legality of my stance. The pushy support group leader's calls were blocked from there on out.

 

That, to me, is legalism.... doing extra when it's isn't desirable or required....and could actually hinder the future of what I was doing. As in once the school gets used to homeschoolers 'reporting' when they don't have to...then the behavior is expected.

[Daisy]

I have a question, if I may interrupt. Or maybe it would be better to make a spin-off? Anyway, asking here in hope of keeping it short and to the point.

(ETA: HAHA. Short and to the point. LOL.)

 

Whenever I read these legalism comments, or legalism debates brought up over here, I always get insatiably curious to ask one thing. HOW, just HOW do you perceive Judaism?

 

Judaism is pretty much legalism incarnated.

 

We don't believe the law is a bad thing. Most Christians believe that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law not abolish it.

 

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 5:17-20 ESV)

 

We simply believe that Christ fulfilled the demands of the law and thus believers are not judged by the law. We are counted as righteous because of Christ, his perfect fulfillment of the law, and his offering as the perfect sacrifice.

 

The law is not bad. It just is no longer the basis for our salvation.

 

Back to Legalism. The problem then with legalism is not with the rules. The problem is what these folks believe the rules will do for them. The problem is that they genuinely and sadly believe that following these rules will earn them salvation.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Daisy

[Heather in Neverland]

Salvation comes to us freely when we accept Christ as our personal savior. It is by God's grace that we are saved. Basically I think legalism is "requiring" more than that for salvation. Jesus plainly said He is "the way, the truth, and the life." Salvation is about what Jesus did for us, not what about what we can do to earn or deserve it. He didn't say that if you have a drink, you're out. He didn't say if you dance, you're out. He didn't say that if a woman cuts her hair and wears make-up, she's out. He didn't say that if you don't tithe, you're out. The list goes on and on.

 

Love it.

 

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

I think that this means extra-biblical teachings/instructions/dictates, but with the myriad of interpretational possibilities over the Bible, what really counts as legalism?

 

I don't really want a debate over it, but I do want to understand exactly what people are calling legalistic. So, to that end, what are specific examples that YOU consider legalism, even if another denomination may disagree.

 

Random example from my life: The Bible disallows tattooing yourself in memory of the dead. Some people take this as a Biblical prohibition against tattoos. We once had a pastor who went off about a whole bunch of things one Sunday, including tattoos. Several tattooed people we know were extremely insulted, including 3 people who were up on stage as part of the worship team.

 

When you wind up insulting a bunch of people because you are implying that they aren't good enough for church or are not proper Christians because of some extra-Biblical reason, then that is legalism.

 

Daisy said:

One woman may wear head-coverings out of a genuine desire to follow what she believes is an interpretation of Scripture. Another does it because she is under the impression that her salvation depends upon it. There's the difference.

 

It isn't just that. It is also when you think, "the Lord has convited me to wear a head covering, so I believe *everyone* should be doing it or they aren't right with God, like I am."

[milovany]

Ester Maria, I loved your post. I really liked the part where you said a truly religious life should look somewhat rigorous (eek, I didn't quote you because you told me not to, so I'm not sure that's the word you used, LOL). There should be certain things we do, and even have to do.

 

As an Orthodox Christian, to outsiders, it might seem like we live our faith with a lot of rules, too. It might seem we have a lot of extra "trappings" and things to do. We go to church a lot. We have morning and evening prayers. We fast for more than half the year, all told (which to us means not eating animal-based foods, nor oil or wine). We celebrate the feasts a certain way. Etc. It might seem like we think we have to do these or we're not right with God, or that we're working hard to please Him, but it's not that way. Our faith is something we believe and do, and we do it with joy (or try to!) because it's how we love and know God. These things ARE part of our salvation (we're defining salvation differently than modern evangelical/fundamental thought).

 

Anyway, just wanted to comment that no, I don't see your faith practice as legalistic. In fact, ideally, I'm not looking at your plate at all (;)) so couldn't make that determination. Your walk is between you and God, as lived out in your faith community.

Edited January 17, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

however, i don't make my sisters feel bad about themselves for living differently. i understand that conviction varies from person to person. this is where i am in my faith right now. with others i trust their journey is working itself out as well.

:iagree: There is one Mediator between God and man and I trust that His Spirit will convict others of their needs for individual growth.

[Nakia]

Legalism is turning a rib issue into a spine issue. Spine issues are those that affect your salvation... Like the deity of Christ. If you say you do not believe Jesus was/is God's son then you are not a Christian. Period.

 

A rib issue would be like head covering. It is a PERSONAL conviction... Not a salvation issue but some people/churches/denominations take a rib issue and blow it out of proportion until it becomes a spine issue.

 

I grew up in one of those churches. They had a booklet called "The 29 Prominent Teachings". I imagine when it was first written it was supposed to be a guideline for Christian behavior but as I was growing up it became 29 ways to end up in hell.

 

Like don't go to R rated movies. Probably good advice for Christians but it was taught to us like anyone who goes to an R rated movie is going to hell. :glare:

 

Most sentences that end with "or you will go to hell" are usually a form of legalism. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

.

 

I love your spine/rib analogy. I'll have to remember that.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, I think we have to be careful about what is legalism and what is conscience and what is completely individual weirdness.

 

If all members of XYZ church refused to go to marriages in other denominations, that is probably legalism.

 

If *some* members refused to go but that isn't a requirement, just something they are uncomfy with because of X or Y, then that is just conscience in which case, they SHOULD follow it though it would be wrong for them to expect anyone to do so. This person probably doesn't figure it's a salvation issue, just a pleasing/displeasing God one.

 

If one person was just plain odd <ahem> and wouldn't even turn around in certain parking lots, that is just that person. BTW, I also don't like bathtubs. LOL

 

ETA: Ester Maria, I think the difference is stress. You aren't stressing because we aren't doing like you. In fact, you don't seem to be stressing too much to follow it yourself. If you were sure you were going to some eternal fiery torture because you were imperfect in your following things like opening the fridge or you were d@mning the rest of us there, it'd be different :)

Edited January 17, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[Joker]

 

For me legalism involves a certain rigidness in non-essential matters. Making a mountain out of a molehill, neglecting the weightier matters to focus on the small things.

 

:iagree: The last church we were at long term told my youngest she was sinning because she planned to dress as a witch for Halloween. She came home terrified and in tears. :glare: She picked the costume because it was orange. We went back to doing church at home on Sunday for several months before trying again. So many places seem to focus on the negatives and what others are maybe doing wrong that the positive messages and the truly important things get lost or overlooked.

[milovany]

If all members of XYZ church refused to go to marriages in other denominations, that is probably legalism.

 

If *some* members refused to go but that isn't a requirement, just something they are uncomfy with because of X or Y, then that is just conscience in which case, they SHOULD follow it though it would be wrong for them to expect anyone to do so. This person probably doesn't figure it's a salvation issue, just a pleasing/displeasing God one.

 

I'm not really seeing why there's a difference. In fact, with where we're at in life right now, I am more comfortable trusting the tradition of my church than my own personal feelings and interpretation. If I wonder if I should or shouldn't be doing something (not every little thing of course, just something before me that I feel conflicted about), I often ask my priest for guidance/advice knowing his advice will be based on the interpretation and beliefs of the apostles and church fathers over hundreds of years. There's something about unchanging tradition. I do understand and respect that not everyone will agree with that.

Edited January 17, 2012 by milovaný

[silliness7]

Following the letter of the law without the Spirit of the law.

Requiring people to submit to things that God does not require.

Believing that it is your law-following that saves you.