Pressing your beliefs on someone in frail health

[Laura Corin]

This is not about one particular set of beliefs.

 

A neighbour of mine (aged 92) whom I'll call 'B' has been in hospital with complications from flu. I went to see her a few days ago and she had just been visited by another neighbour. The visitor had brought a book with her about her latest beliefs, and had insisted on reading extracts to B and discussing them with her. B was feeling quite frail and was frankly not interested.

 

I do understand that the visitor is so convinced about the rightness of her beliefs that she wants to spread the joy, but where do the limits lie?

 

Laura

[Xuzi]

This is not about one particular set of beliefs.

 

A neighbour of mine (aged 92) whom I'll call 'B' has been in hospital with complications from flu. I went to see her a few days ago and she had just been visited by another neighbour. The visitor had brought a book with her about her latest beliefs, and had insisted on reading extracts to B and discussing them with her. B was feeling quite frail and was frankly not interested.

 

I do understand that the visitor is so convinced about the rightness of her beliefs that she wants to spread the joy, but where do the limits lie?

 

Laura

Once the persons says (or obviously shows) disinterest in the topic, you stop, IMO. (although, if it were me, I'd have asked if they were interested in the *first place* before even starting). Do you know if B had previously expressed interest, or if this is the kind of thing they typically discuss together?

[Laurie4b]

Why do you ask? It sounds like it's past your limits, but I'm not sure the point of the question, so don't know how to answer.

[Laura Corin]

Why do you ask? It sounds like it's past your limits, but I'm not sure the point of the question, so don't know how to answer.

 

However, I don't have any kind of spiritual beliefs, so I find it hard to understand the behaviour. I was hoping that others might help me to understand.

 

Laura

[Lang Syne Boardie]

In my own personal opinion, the line is here:

 

Visiting friend: "I brought some materials about my new spiritual beliefs and I want to share some thoughts with you. Do you mind?"

 

Ailing friend: "No, thank you." (Other non-positive responses could include a sigh, an eyeroll, or sinking back into the pillows, or even nodding tolerantly but not enthusiastically. Anything other than, "Yes, please, I'm 92 and in hospital from the flu but my spiritual beliefs are all up in the air and I hoped you would save me," should be taken as a No and respected.)

 

There's the line.

 

Visitor says, "Alright. Would you like me to water the hydrangeas when I stop to take care of your dogs?" (or whatever is considered bean dip in the hospital-visiting realm)

 

I think that visitor was rude to the point of being abusive to wear out the hospitalized lady by insisting on a book club in her sick room. Awful!

[Laura Corin]

Once the persons says (or obviously shows) disinterest in the topic, you stop, IMO. (although, if it were me, I'd have asked if they were interested in the *first place* before even starting). Do you know if B had previously expressed interest, or if this is the kind of thing they typically discuss together?

 

B is old-school gracious. If I know her, she will not have shut her visitor down, any more than she would have done over an elegant cup of tea.

 

Laura

[Night Elf]

I imagine it depends on the individual. That neighbor could be truly scared for this elderly woman and may feel that if this woman passes away without believing whatever religion this is, that her soul is in jeopardy. That scares the willies out of some people. I personally think it's more appropriate to ask if it's okay to pray aloud with them, or at the very least to pray for them. I've always wondered about religious decisions made in times of great stress, especially near the end of one's life. It seems sort of like cheating to me but I guess belief is belief regardless of when it started. It seemds kind of mean to take advantage of someone's frail health, knowing the sick person can't move or may feel guilty for asking the person to go away. They just seem cornered.

[black_midori]

I thought it sounded nice, actually. Aren't people always saying that when you are stuck in a hospital it gets super-boring because hardly anyone takes the time to hang out and chat? I see this as the neighbor's way of hanging out to chat. She probably thought she was doing a great favor - spending time with B as well as sharing something she was passionate about (especially with someone so frail as to seem likely to need saving extra-soon).

 

IMHO, if B wants guests... he probably ought to introduce his own topics or be gracious about hers. If he doesn't want guests, he should say so. If he doesn't want to talk about that but wants to talk about something else, he should say so.

[NicAnn]

I would probably say something like "can I share this scripture you with?" If she said yes, then I would share it and briefly talk about why I chose that scripture. But I wouldn't really go beyond that, if the person wasn't interested.

 

But I don't come from a religion that believes in soul saving or that someone will go to Hell if they don't know the word of God. If I did, my answer would be entirely different.

[AimeeM]

You're assuming the 92 year old hospitalized friend has the ability or presence of mind to tell somebody to go away.

OP - I find it incredibly rude.

I thought it sounded nice, actually. Aren't people always saying that when you are stuck in a hospital it gets super-boring because hardly anyone takes the time to hang out and chat? I see this as the neighbor's way of hanging out to chat. She probably thought she was doing a great favor - spending time with B as well as sharing something she was passionate about (especially with someone so frail as to seem likely to need saving extra-soon).

 

IMHO, if B wants guests... he probably ought to introduce his own topics or be gracious about hers. If he doesn't want guests, he should say so. If he doesn't want to talk about that but wants to talk about something else, he should say so.

[sbgrace]

This is about religion talk specifically and not a visit that went too long, right? I wouldn't share my religious beliefs uninvited but I'm not surprised some people would. I'm sure the neighbor was doing what she was doing out of care, apparently misguided care, even if it wasn't received that way.

 

Limits lie where they are set in my opinion. If a person is "too polite" to indicate disinterest in any way I don't know how another would be responsible for "pushing" something??

 

I know some people who wouldn't pick up on a person's lack of interest in any topic (religion, politics, sports, whatever) because they have social issues. I'm not gathering this is your neighbor but rather that the signals aren't even given??

 

Do you think the neighbor knew that sharing her passion or even her visit altogether wasn't wanted? If she knew and continued anyway I don't know why she would do so. That would socially boorish no matter the topic first. Second, I wouldn't think she would assume someone who didn't want her religious information was going to receive it in their heart anyway so going on and on would be sort of pointless? If she knowingly continued on or stayed past her welcome then she's as socially wrong as anyone who does the same for any reason.

 

As far as inability to handle the neighbor--if the 92 year old could tell the OP all about the other neighbor and her feelings about it surely she could tell the original neighbor she needed rest or whatever excuse to end the visit if she wasn't willing to honestly indicate she was disinterested?

Edited January 13, 2012 by sbgrace

[Laura Corin]

Well if a person is "too polite" to indicate disinterest in any way I don't know how another would be responsible for "pushing" something??

 

I suppose I was assuming that when you visit someone in frail health you are looking for.... I don't know, 'safe but interesting' topics of conversation. The person in bed is trapped and might not feel strong enough to assert her will. I do understand that B's politeness might have made it hard for the visitor to know that her intervention wasn't wanted, but the visitor's diving in with religious topics seems pushy. Politics would have seemed pushy to me too at that time, unless it was something they shared.

 

Laura

Edited January 13, 2012 by Laura Corin

[Daisy]

I desperately want those close to me (friends and family) to hear the Gospel message before they die. I'm not going to go beyond what the person is willing to listen to, but I have no qualms about bringing up the topic even if the timing is viewed as indelicate.

 

My husband and I still regret not having sharing the Gospel more clearly with our elderly neighbor before he died. It was so much more comfortable to skirt the issue. I realize that God is sovereign over all of that but still regret the missed opportunities.

[Joanne]

(Assuming this is about spirituality or religion) I think the limits are expressed in the lack of solicited commentary.

 

If a person doesn't ask, that's it. I don't believe in doing things *so that* a person asks, either.

[Laura Corin]

I desperately want those close to me (friends and family) to hear the Gospel message before they die. I'm not going to go beyond what the person is willing to listen to, but I have no qualms about bringing up the topic even if the timing is viewed as indelicate.

 

Laura

[Daisy]

I think an "I'm not interested" would be clear enough.

[gardenmom5]

This is not about one particular set of beliefs.

 

A neighbour of mine (aged 92) whom I'll call 'B' has been in hospital with complications from flu. I went to see her a few days ago and she had just been visited by another neighbour. The visitor had brought a book with her about her latest beliefs, and had insisted on reading extracts to B and discussing them with her. B was feeling quite frail and was frankly not interested.

 

I do understand that the visitor is so convinced about the rightness of her beliefs that she wants to spread the joy, but where do the limits lie?

 

Laura

 

I'm very sorry for your neighbor. :grouphug:

 

my brother did this with his latest "aint't this grand (he finds something new at least every other year.)" with our mother the WEEK before she died. He tried to push them on me via an online video during her bedside vigil (she was unconcious) in the hospital. (I told him to turn it off, I wasn't interested and I had to put my foot down about it.). while going through her things after her death, I found a printout he'd given her and she'd obviously been reading :svengo:. It was negative, horrible, and positively gave me the creeps:eek:. words cannot adequately express my fury:cursing:. Now I *really* understand why the last time I saw her, she wanted to know about my beliefs. She wanted a counter to what my brother was shoving at her. At least I know my very last conversation with her I was able to express how much I loved her, and that I believed God loved her.

 

eta: I know some people don't respect (or hear) "I'm not interested" as an answer. My brother sure doens't, but I can push back harder than he can withstand.

Edited January 13, 2012 by gardenmom5

[sbgrace]

I think an "I'm not interested" would be clear enough.

Or a "you know, I'm really tired and would like to have a nap now" or "tell me about your grandkids" or "thanks, I can tell you're interested in that. Now what do you think of this weather?"

 

Most socially aware people can pick up on disinterest and since the neighbor apparently went on and on I'm thinking no disinterest was communicated.

 

I think it's sort of yucky to do that to someone who presumably cares about you enough to visit and put themselves out there and then complain to the next visitor about the previous visitor's rudeness. That said, we all have our yucky times and I'm certainly not at my best when I'm feeling bad. Likely your ill neighbor is doing the best she can. I hope she recovers well.

Edited January 13, 2012 by sbgrace

[Liz CA]

However, I don't have any kind of spiritual beliefs, so I find it hard to understand the behaviour. I was hoping that others might help me to understand.

 

Laura

 

If the visitor was a believer in life after death, he/she may have thought this is possibly the last chance to lead this neighbor to heaven.

If the visitor was hoping to impart another belief system, perhaps it had to do with supernatural healing or some kind? Just guessing here.

[mta]

Maintaining at least a facade of good manners and decent behaviour should trump any personal need to share beliefs or wisdom, especially under such circumstances.

 

WendyK said it well.

[kalanamak]

 

I do understand that the visitor is so convinced about the rightness of her beliefs that she wants to spread the joy, but where do the limits lie?

 

Laura

 

 

I say it lies on the line between good and bad manners. Could you have a nurse drop a hint?

[annandatje]

It strikes me as pretty self serving. Maybe the neighbor needs it. It's not about her at that moment though. So I think she did cross the line. Some people just don't get it, however.

 

Not surprisingly, numerous people who were well aware of my dying relative's complete lack of belief in deities and afterlife insisted upon trying to "save" the village heretic.

 

Strangely, a couple of local preachers who had never met my relative came uninvited into the hospital room to pray over him. That did surprise me. In exasperation, one of this relative's family members put a sign on door to effect that no religious or spiritual care was desired. Even more surprising is that the sign did not deter them but made them only that much more determined. Thus, I agree that you are correct about the salvation being more about the proselytizer than the target.

 

I hope that it is not like that everywhere; this was in a small Southern town in the U.S.

[lluv]

I do understand that the visitor is so convinced about the rightness of her beliefs that she wants to spread the joy, but where do the limits lie?

 

Laura

 

My dissenting opinion is that the visitor needs to learn some tact more than anything.

 

Based on what I believe, I would absolutely bring up the topic. As a christian, my job is to share the gospel and I think the bible is pretty clear about this. However, there is a difference between sharing your faith and pressuring/forcing someone to adopt your faith. I don't think it's rude to bring up the topic, but I would do it in a tactful manner and as soon as the person looked disinterested or asked to stop I would because it's not my job to convert anyone, period. If I truly believe that a person only goes to one of two places when they die, why wouldn't I share with you (tactfully) how to get to the best place?

 

I've heard it explained like this once: If you were absolutely certain that the hotel you were staying at was going to explode: would you run around telling as many people as you could to get out? Or would you simply keep the information to yourself and not care what will happen to everyone else?

Edited January 13, 2012 by lluv

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would probably say something like "can I share this scripture you with?" If she said yes, then I would share it and briefly talk about why I chose that scripture. But I wouldn't really go beyond that, if the person wasn't interested.

 

Right. Like tonight, a friend of mine had to go to the ER with a serious issue (well, that *should* be the only issue one goes to the ER about, but you know what I mean). I *definitely* was thinking something along the line of how Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth as well as Psalms 37:10, 11, 29 (she has been extremely stressed and "exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" sounded good!) and Isaiah 33:24.

 

But I don't come from a religion that believes in soul saving or that someone will go to Hell if they don't know the word of God. If I did, my answer would be entirely different.

 

Right. I can imagine that if you were worried about the FOREVER TORTURE of your elderly neighbor, you would feel it NECESSARY to push that pretty strongly. Similarly, if you believe that illness is punishment from God, you might do similarly. I don't have those beliefs; but I can imagine. And my beliefs DO include sharing with others.

 

Of course, some people, especially if they are new in their beliefs, are a little less tactful regardless. They really want people to have hope of GOOD things. Some beliefs have some pretty exciting things involved! It'd be hard to pick up on those signs of disinterest (especially from someone less likely to be fairly clear) when you just hope you can help them look at the rainbow that is about to come after this storm. Have you ever pointed out a rainbow after the rain? There is just an excitement that goes with that!

 

Anyway...just some thoughts.

Edited January 13, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[mta]

Perhaps it is more a matter of a lack of interpersonal skills in the visitor. Interpersonally capable and socially adept people are able to read a situation better and would only bring up such a topic if they knew it to be welcome.

I think it is a bit similar to deciding that a person needs to know the truth about their prognosis. It may be true, but some people would rather not know or be told and it takes skill to discern when this is the case.

[Little Nyssa]

But kindness and consideration to a suffering person are a way of showing the Gospel. You don't always have to use words.

IMO a short, kind visit that shows you care about the person is more likely to help her realize that God loves her, rather than droning on when she is too tired & uncomfortable to pay any attention.

[EmilyK]

I think there's a reason that politics and religion are considered off-limits in "polite company" kinds of discussions.

 

I think the main object of a visit with someone who has been released from hospital, bereaved, facing bad news, whatever, is to put them at ease and give them the comfort of company. Pushing views on them that they have to be (what they perceive as) rude to cut the visitor off is putting them in a bad position at a vulnerable time. I think most of us would know not to share our candidate recommendations at a time like this, or other things that could be controversial and upsetting.

[Laura Corin]

I've heard it explained like this once: If you were absolutely certain that the hotel you were staying at was going to explode: would you run around telling as many people as you could to get out? Or would you simply keep the information to yourself and not care what will happen to everyone else?

 

Let me change your metaphor to another one I've heard. Say you see someone walking straight for a cliff edge. You see the cliff and the person, but she might be trying to launch her hang-glider, she might be a champion abseiler or she might be about to walk that cool chain walk. Her reality may not be yours; is not the responsibility yours to avoid tripping her up or getting tangled in her ropes?

 

Laura

Edited January 13, 2012 by Laura Corin

[LucyStoner]

This is a sensitive topic for me as my mother was dying from cancer and people did try to convert her with a very negative line and even told her that she was going to hell. She was a practicing Catholic but there are people the family who think Catholics are not Christians. I don't care what the heck someone thinks they need to share, imposing on a dying person and that person's family is appalling. In our case I has to literally block my mother's sisters and mother from contacting her. It was too upsetting and cruel. I also told them in no uncertain terms to stay away from her funeral. Not that they would have quietly entered a Catholic church or cemetery anyways. I seriously doubt I will ever speak to my grandmother and my aunts again.

 

It is no more acceptable to explain your religious views to an aged person laying in bed who is not asking you to do so than it is a walk up to someone and start in on your politics or what you like to do in bed. Sex, Politics and Religion people. Don't share unless asked, especially with someone who may not be able to walk away or say "no, thanks."

[lluv]

Religion/politics will always be hot topics, I think we all agree with that. Nothing gets people more heated than when you challenge their belief system/worldview. I was simply answering the OP's question as honest as I could from my own perspective, which I believe is what the OP was asking. I'm fully aware that others don't think the same way, and I'd probably say that MOST people nowadays don't. However, that's not going to stop me from sharing with someone tactfully and in love.

 

Let me change your metaphor to another one I've heard. Say you see someone walking straight for a cliff edge. You see the cliff and the person, but she might be trying to launch her hang-glider, she might be a champion abseiler or she might be about to walk that cool chain walk. Her reality may not be yours; is not the responsibility yours to avoid tripping her up or getting tangled in her ropes?

 

Laura

 

I totally understand what you're saying. But with much respect, I can't imagine NOT calling out to any person walking toward a cliff. I'd feel more responsibility in making sure she didn't fall off the cliff than tripping her up. :)

[Heather in Neverland]

If the visitor was a believer in life after death, he/she may have thought this is possibly the last chance to lead this neighbor to heaven.

If the visitor was hoping to impart another belief system, perhaps it had to do with supernatural healing or some kind? Just guessing here.

 

Yes.

 

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think the friend had any nefarious purposes in mind. It sounds like the friend CARES about the patient and is trying to share something important. Politics isn't eternally important but to some people, the state of your soul is.

 

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

 

 

 

 

.

[Xuzi]

Yes.

 

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think the friend had any nefarious purposes in mind. It sounds like the friend CARES about the patient and is trying to share something important. Politics isn't eternally important but to some people, the state of your soul is.

 

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

 

 

 

.

You know, I hear this reasoning a lot, but I don't buy it. I'm from a denomination that most other Christians consider to be "unsaved", and boy would I be *ticked* if somebody tried to preach to me on my death bed uninvited, even if I knew they fully believed I was destined for a lake of fire. I would wonder if they ever really respected my intelligence and my ability to make an informed choice.

 

But then, I'm not from a denomination that believes non-believers are on a one-way track to Hell, so I don't feel that same sense of urgency to "save" someone from themselves.

[Impish]

This sort of thing makes me nuts.

 

MIL is famous for it.

 

She brought her convicted of molesting his own dds brother to visit their suffering from dementia sister in a locked ward.

 

She BRAGGED to me about it later, how sister is so far gone that she didn't remember HATING their brother! And how she's such a wonderful Christian for forgiving her brother, etc, etc, etc.

 

That her sister could have become completely agitated and ended up chemically or physically restrained just didn't matter to her...she was going to FORCE forgiveness from this incredibly vulnerable woman. :cursing:

[Heather in Neverland]

 

But then, I'm not from a denomination that believes non-believers are on a one-way track to Hell, so I don't feel that same sense of urgency to "save" someone from themselves.

 

And therein lies the issue. Some people ARE coming from that viewpoint and that is why I would choose to give them the benefit of the doubt... That they were trying to be caring... And not being purposely rude. I also think if I were dying I wouldn't be all that concerned about polite vs. rude.

 

But I am from old school manners where you usually just smile, accept that the other person THINKS they are doing the right thing, feel blessed that they care enough to try, and let it go. YMMV

[Laura Corin]

I totally understand what you're saying. But with much respect, I can't imagine NOT calling out to any person walking toward a cliff. I'd feel more responsibility in making sure she didn't fall off the cliff than tripping her up. :)

 

You call out at the cliff edge and the person says, 'I'm just heading for the chain walk,' and you say, 'Oh, okay.' You say to someone frail 'Would you like to talk about faith?' and accept 'No' or the lack of a 'Yes' for an answer.

 

Not asking if your intervention is welcome, sitting down with a book, reading extracts, expecting discussion? That's tripping other people up.

 

Laura

[choirfarm]

Laura,

 

We will probably just have to agree to disagree about this issue. But for what it is worth:

 

Yes I would say something no matter what "they" wanted. I have to try. Some day I will be standing in front of God and he will ask me why I didn't. At least that is how I see it. It will be my fault that I didn't reach out to them and now they are lost forever. I couldn't live with myself......... not if I loved that person...

[keptwoman]

It is no more acceptable to explain your religious views to an aged person laying in bed who is not asking you to do so than it is a walk up to someone and start in on your politics or what you like to do in bed. Sex, Politics and Religion people. Don't share unless asked, especially with someone who may not be able to walk away or say "no, thanks."

:iagree: Absolutely!!

 

Yes.

 

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think the friend had any nefarious purposes in mind. It sounds like the friend CARES about the patient and is trying to share something important. Politics isn't eternally important but to some people, the state of your soul is.

 

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

.

I completely disagree! As an "unbeliever", if my Christian friends did not respect that fact that I had clearly known and rejected their beliefs, and tried to talk to me about them when I am DYING. I'd tell them to get the hell out my room and never come back. But then I imagine that I'm a lot ruder and more blunt than the woman in question, who was imposed on in the worst way.

 

I think that we can all safely assume that unless someone is dying aged 10, and from an atheist family, that those dying have heard the "good news" and if they are not following that belief system, it's because they are not interested.

 

Choosing to bring it up when someone is ill or dying is far beyond rude and goes well into the type of behaviour most likely to turn a person further off your religion. It would undo every second of friendship they had offered and would make their faith abhorrent to me. If the ill or dying person know sthat you are Christian and they have any interest at all in knowing more when they know they are dying, if you are a good friend, they will ask you.

[Heather in Neverland]

:iagree: Absolutely!!

 

 

I completely disagree! As an "unbeliever", if my Christian friends did not respect that fact that I had clearly known and rejected their beliefs, and tried to talk to me about them when I am DYING. I'd tell them to get the hell out my room and never come back. But then I imagine that I'm a lot ruder and more blunt than the woman in question, who was imposed on in the worst way.

 

I think that we can all safely assume that unless someone is dying aged 10, and from an atheist family, that those dying have heard the "good news" and if they are not following that belief system, it's because they are not interested.

 

Choosing to bring it up when someone is ill or dying is far beyond rude and goes well into the type of behaviour most likely to turn a person further off your religion. It would undo every second of friendship they had offered and would make their faith abhorrent to me. If the ill or dying person know sthat you are Christian and they have any interest at all in knowing more when they know they are dying, if you are a good friend, they will ask you.

 

A very close friend of mine who died from cancer at age 29 just 6 weeks after giving birth to her first child did accept Christ just days before she died because a complete stranger walked into her hospital room and prayed for her. Even though she had "heard" the gospel many times before in life, it was that moment that did it for her. Many people are aware of Jesus but still do not come to faith until years later. You never know the moment when God will change someone's heart. So we will have to agree to disagree on this because I am grateful for that "rude" stranger.

 

 

.

[Lady Florida.]

 

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

 

 

But you're not an unbeliever, so you see it differently. My Christian friends who are real friends wouldn't go there. They know I'm am fully aware of their beliefs and am fully capable of making my own decisions. They might be sad for me because of their beliefs, but they would not spend our last moments together trying to change my mind.

[TravelingChris]

I think the neighbor is mostly a clueless person. I think she could have been reading from a gardening book, a new diet book, or the newspaper if those were her interests. There is a big difference in asking can you pray with someone or do they want to hear about Jesus and heaven and whipping out a book, reading excerpts, and expecting discussion. I don't care if it was a subject that the old lady was passionate about- that behavior would still be rude. I am not her age but when I was in the hospital the first day after admission when I had antibiotic resistant peri-orbital cellulitis and had been kept up almost all the previous night, I wouldn;t have wanted this kind of discussion and behavior even on the topics I am most interested in. It just isn't proper behavior for a seriously ill person. I am a Christian and it is far from asking to pray for you, which I would have and did accept.

[Hannah]

So we will have to agree to disagree on this because I am grateful for that "rude" stranger.

 

If the stranger had asked politely and your friend had agreed that the stranger could pray for and with her, it would not have been rude.

 

Pushy proselytizing is rude.

[Xuzi]

Laura,

 

We will probably just have to agree to disagree about this issue. But for what it is worth:

 

Yes I would say something no matter what "they" wanted. I have to try. Some day I will be standing in front of God and he will ask me why I didn't. At least that is how I see it. It will be my fault that I didn't reach out to them and now they are lost forever. I couldn't live with myself......... not if I loved that person...

 

But this begs the question, are you trying to save their soul or your conscious? Does God really leave the fate of someone else's eternal destination in the hands of frail humans like that? I don't personally believe so.

[AimeeM]

Yikes. If you were my friend, there would be a restraining order (or, at least, you would be escorted off my property/out of my hospital room and told to NEVER return - whether I be dying or living!).

 

I believe in a loving God. People are never "lost forever" simply because they didn't hear the gospel.

Laura,

 

We will probably just have to agree to disagree about this issue. But for what it is worth:

 

Yes I would say something no matter what "they" wanted. I have to try. Some day I will be standing in front of God and he will ask me why I didn't. At least that is how I see it. It will be my fault that I didn't reach out to them and now they are lost forever. I couldn't live with myself......... not if I loved that person...

[Lady Florida.]

If the stranger had asked politely and your friend had agreed that the stranger could pray for and with her, it would not have been rude.

 

Pushy proselytizing is rude.

 

:iagree:This is the difference.

[*********]

In my own personal opinion, the line is here:

 

Visiting friend: "I brought some materials about my new spiritual beliefs and I want to share some thoughts with you. Do you mind?"

 

Ailing friend: "No, thank you." (Other non-positive responses could include a sigh, an eyeroll, or sinking back into the pillows, or even nodding tolerantly but not enthusiastically. Anything other than, "Yes, please, I'm 92 and in hospital from the flu but my spiritual beliefs are all up in the air and I hoped you would save me," should be taken as a No and respected.)

 

There's the line.

 

Visitor says, "Alright. Would you like me to water the hydrangeas when I stop to take care of your dogs?" (or whatever is considered bean dip in the hospital-visiting realm)

 

I think that visitor was rude to the point of being abusive to wear out the hospitalized lady by insisting on a book club in her sick room. Awful!

 

Yeah, this.

 

Dh and I are well acquainted with evangelism. And yes, dh did try to share with his mother as well as he could when she was dying in the hospital. But she never indicated she wanted dh to stop talking or whatever; he would have.

 

Not to mention, if the visitor was REALLY pestering B, she could have called the nurse to have security escort the neighbor out. Just saying.

[MinivanMom]

This is a sensitive topic for me as my mother was dying from cancer and people did try to convert her with a very negative line and even told her that she was going to hell. She was a practicing Catholic but there are people the family who think Catholics are not Christians. I don't care what the heck someone thinks they need to share, imposing on a dying person and that person's family is appalling. In our case I has to literally block my mother's sisters and mother from contacting her. It was too upsetting and cruel. I also told them in no uncertain terms to stay away from her funeral. Not that they would have quietly entered a Catholic church or cemetery anyways. I seriously doubt I will ever speak to my grandmother and my aunts again.

 

It is no more acceptable to explain your religious views to an aged person laying in bed who is not asking you to do so than it is a walk up to someone and start in on your politics or what you like to do in bed. Sex, Politics and Religion people. Don't share unless asked, especially with someone who may not be able to walk away or say "no, thanks."

 

:iagree:

 

Something similar happened to my mother in her last days. It was not about showing her love or trying to save her. It was 100% selfish. As in, "My desire to be right about religion matters more than politeness, kindness, or respect." No one who tells someone else they are going to hell is being kind, especially if the person they are speaking to is elderly, dying, sick, or in any other way vulnerable. That is not kindness nor does it resemble kindness in any way.

 

Live so that those who know you, but do not know Him . . . will want to know Him, because they know you. - I'm not sure who said it, but I used to keep that quote tacked on my wall as a teen. If the woman had visited the elderly patient to just to sit beside, listen to her, comfort her . . . well . . . that would have been a far more loving and christian thing to do. I'm all for trying to understand other people's point-of-view, but what she did was selfish and unkind.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Laura,

 

We will probably just have to agree to disagree about this issue. But for what it is worth:

 

Yes I would say something no matter what "they" wanted. I have to try. Some day I will be standing in front of God and he will ask me why I didn't. At least that is how I see it. It will be my fault that I didn't reach out to them and now they are lost forever. I couldn't live with myself......... not if I loved that person...

 

 

And with the bolded is where you cross the line. When my brother was dying he was told by my Aunt's preacher that he was dying because he had studied the Qu'aran. :confused: My Aunt was convinced that Jim was dying because he "didn't embrace his healing". (ignoring the FACT that 100% of people who are diagnosed with this disease die quickly from it.) If anyone had tried to preach to him the night he died I would have run them out of the room and then BEEN OUT FOR BLOOD after the fact.

 

His moment of death was not about YOUR agenda, as life-altering and eternally meaningful as you think it is. It is not about YOU/your agenda/your religion......it IS about the person who is dying and if you would preach to them EVEN IF THEY SAID NO.....wow. Just horrible.

 

Why can't people respect the power differential that is in play in this situation? You have a captive audience. Be there for them in a way that THEY want, not in a way that pushes your own agenda.

 

Also, if we are to discuss manners......it is TERRIBLE manners to push religious discussion on an unwilling participant!

Edited January 14, 2012 by ThatCyndiGirl

[dragons in the flower bed]

However, I don't have any kind of spiritual beliefs, so I find it hard to understand the behaviour. I was hoping that others might help me to understand.

 

These types of beliefs bring giant amounts of comfort, joy, hope and strength to their carriers. It's a natural human impulse, and a kindly one, to want to give someone who is ailing the thing that helps you so greatly with your own ailments. It takes a measure of maturity and insight to recognize that not everything is like you, not everyone is comforted by those things.

[lluv]

You call out at the cliff edge and the person says, 'I'm just heading for the chain walk,' and you say, 'Oh, okay.' You say to someone frail 'Would you like to talk about faith?' and accept 'No' or the lack of a 'Yes' for an answer.

 

Laura

 

We are actually in agreement ;). I don't see anything wrong with simply bringing up the topic. I might say "May I share what I believe?" or "Can I share with you my personal experience?" or even "Do you ever think about heaven?" depending on how close I am to that person. I can accept a person's "No thanks." or lack of interest just fine because it's not my job to "make converts".

 

My job as a christian is to try to share whenever I'm given the opportunity (clarified: someone is open to hearing more) and leave the results to God. It's the power of God that changes someone's heart, not any song and dance or strong-arming that I come up with.

[Joanne]

I might say "May I share what I believe?" or "Can I share with you my personal experience?" or even "Do you ever think about heaven?" depending on how close I am to that person. I can accept a person's "No thanks." or lack of interest just fine because it's not my job to "make converts".

 

My job as a christian is to try to share whenever I'm given the opportunity (clarified: someone is open to hearing more) and leave the results to God. It's the power of God that changes someone's heart, not any song and dance or strong-arming that I come up with.

 

In a different role, end-of-life counseling includes finding out what the *dying person believes* and work within that framework. I had clients die (I worked in a nursing home) last spring and conversations were about their beliefs, not mine.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Edited to add:

 

I think that even "polite asking" to pray with or for a dying person is coercion. To the asker/prayer, it likely seems harmless, or even gracious and kind. But many people will WANT to say "no, thank you" but won't say it. The same thing with sharing "your experience" or "opinion."

 

If you, as a spiritual person of some kind, feel you need to pray for the dying person; pray - silently. If you feel that YOU are supposed to be the one to mention "the Gospel", ask your Jesus for that clear opportunity. If you believe in Him, he won't withhold the clear opportunity. If you believe in traditional Christian theology, YOUR introducing "the gospel" won't save a person (or **** them if you don't). A loving Jesus won't remove the opportunity, relying on you to intrude spiritually. What kind of cruel God would that be?

Edited January 14, 2012 by Joanne