Pressing your beliefs on someone in frail health

[5Bmom]

I was in the hospital a lot last year. I am a Lutheran, born and raised. Many times a day, well meaning people would come into my room and try and talk to me about their religions (from LDS to 7th Day to Catholism to JH to non-denom Christians). Sometimes, I felt really overwhelmed. At this point, I was in a physical rehab hospital and was struggling to relearn everything and the effort to be polite was hard enough but worse was feeling like I had to defend my religion. Normally, I love debating and I welcome witnesses in my home and enjoy the coversations... but hitting me while I was sick felt so invasive most of the time. Now, had I not been firm in my faith and facing what I was facing, maybe things would have been different.

 

I always think back to my dad's friend who was dying of cancer. He was an evangelical and his wife was catholic. Two days before he died, he was at home and in and out it... his wife had her priest come and baptize him catholic so he could be buried in the catholic cemetary. This man was VEHEMENTLY anti-catholic. Loved his wife, didn't love her religion... and as I sat through that catholic funeral, my heart was breaking because he was a man of faith and his wife and the priest took advantage of him in his weakest moment. UGH... 16 years later and it still ticks me off...

[KarenC]

I can't imagine bringing up anything even remotely controversial or irritating to an ill, captive person. I sympathize with the lady. Maybe next time she can pull out pictures of her great grandchildren and change the topic.

 

Karen

[KarenC]

Yes.

 

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think the friend had any nefarious purposes in mind. It sounds like the friend CARES about the patient and is trying to share something important. Politics isn't eternally important but to some people, the state of your soul is.

 

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

 

 

 

 

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Really? If she were my friend I would think she would know me well enough to know that I don't want to be preached at when I'm in a fragile state.

 

Different points of view sure are interesting.

 

Karen

[dragons in the flower bed]

But I am from old school manners where you usually just smile, accept that the other person THINKS they are doing the right thing, feel blessed that they care enough to try, and let it go.

 

Is that old school manners? I want a ray gun that shoots old school manners into people.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

But, truly, old school manners would dictate that you not attempt to force your beliefs onto others in the first place. It is rude. It is presumptious. It is arrogant. It is cruel. None of those things are really compatible with manners. :glare:

[goldberry]

This is not about one particular set of beliefs.

 

A neighbour of mine (aged 92) whom I'll call 'B' has been in hospital with complications from flu. I went to see her a few days ago and she had just been visited by another neighbour. The visitor had brought a book with her about her latest beliefs, and had insisted on reading extracts to B and discussing them with her. B was feeling quite frail and was frankly not interested.

 

I do understand that the visitor is so convinced about the rightness of her beliefs that she wants to spread the joy, but where do the limits lie?

 

Laura

 

Pushing your beliefs on someone who has expressed that they are not interest is rude. So, I'm wondering about this part...

 

B was feeling quite frail and was frankly not interested.

 

Did B say this to you but was not willing to say this to her visitor? If so, then the visitor may very well think her discussion was welcome. If that is the case, I would not think anything bad about the visitor. If you have a strong faith, it is normal to talk about your faith because you believe it would be a help to someone, even if you have not been specifically invited to do so. I don't think it is "predatory", it's just Christian to be concerned about how you can help others.

 

That is different than continuing to talk about it after you have been asked not to, or have been told they are "not interested".

 

However, I think it is up to the person to express that, rather than for others to just "assume" the person is not interested. Not saying that happened with the OP, if B expressed it to you. Just saying in general.

[kalanamak]

But, truly, old school manners would dictate that you not attempt to force your beliefs onto others in the first place. It is rude. It is presumptious. It is arrogant. It is cruel. None of those things are really compatible with manners. :glare:

 

My mother was old school manners to the hilt (had a little ruler on her writing desk to make sure the margins in her thank-you notes were up to snuff), and "never discuss religion or politics" was heavily hammered home. She meant in non-professional or quasi-professional situations. With a neighbor in the hospital, extra extra EXTRA infra-dig. When visiting the sick or frail one must match one's step to theirs, not vice versa.

 

That people think they are so "right" they get to (are compelled to) break this rule is a strike against that religion, IMO, but it may well keep the numbers up. Religions that don't try to convert are perhaps more inclined to die out.

[kalanamak]

Yeah, but if the potential member is about to die that's not going to do much for the numbers.

 

The OP didn't say dying, she said frail.

 

Plus, hubby's church-of-birth was big on having member-attorneys do "free" wills with the common inclusion of 10% for the church. Set up a good fight in the family as no one could afford to pay the 10% and the family property was going to have to be sold. After some back and forthing and some scary-sounding legal documents sent out by the church, they threw themselves on the church's mercy (with the help of a family friend who was a mucky-muck in the church) and the church accepted a payment plan.

[Laura Corin]

She's staying with another neighbour (not 'the visitor') for a few days, then will be going back home.

 

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

 

Laura

[Rivka]

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

 

Heather, I've heard a lot of people say this. They have always been Christians. I have never heard this point of view from someone who is actually an unbeliever. Why do you think that is?

[Danestress]

is that when a elderly person is frail and in the hospital, it's hard to know what they want and don't want if they won't say.

 

In that situation, for example, I had a sister who insisted our Dad wanted to listen to music all the time, and she was always playing jazz in his room. I suspected he actually was annoyed by this, but he couldn't/wouldn't really express that one way or another. He has a guy friend who had very strong religious beliefs that my father did not share. I could never decide whether having a visitor was worth it. People really encourage visits, but I actually thought my father maybe wanted more time to himself.

 

Hard to know - even with one's own father.

 

I think extroverts tend to think that any visit is good. Play music, read aloud, play pod casts of the news, etc. I think introverts tend to think that people want to be left alone.

 

I'm not sure religious belief visits are that different from, "let's listen to my favorite big band album" visits. Maybe annoying to the patient, but maybe not.

[justamouse]

 

I think extroverts tend to think that any visit is good. Play music, read aloud, play pod casts of the news, etc. I think introverts tend to think that people want to be left alone.

 

 

So, so, true.

 

If a person ASKS, then yes, by all means, share. They asked you for a reason, they know you and want you to share. If they don't ask, then no, it's off limits.

[nmoira]

Heather, I've heard a lot of people say this. They have always been Christians. I have never heard this point of view from someone who is actually an unbeliever. Why do you think that is?

My father wasn't an atheist exactly, but he explicitly and vehemently rejected God (think Ivan in The Brothers Karamazov, but up the intensity). Inexplicably, he had a good relationship with his minister, a man of no little intellect and in possession of a fine sense for humour. No one who knew him would have been brave enough to attempt to reconcile him with his -- or their -- God.

[kalanamak]

Inexplicably, he had a good relationship with his minister, a man of no little intellect and in possession of a fine sense for humour.

 

Nothing inexplicable about this. I could be shipwrecked with only people like this and be happy.

[nmoira]

Nothing inexplicable about this. I could be shipwrecked with only people like this and be happy.

 

You're absolutely right. "Ironically" is a better fit. :001_smile:

[PiCO]

Honestly, if I were an unbeliever and on my deathbed, and my friend who is a Christian DIDN'T try to share the gospel with me one last time before I died, I would think she wasn't much of a friend.

 

Um. No.

 

I am an unbeliever, and I would hope my christian friends would come and talk about what I want to talk about. They can pray for me on their own time.

 

A "friend" asked to come visit my dh when he was home on hospice. This friend had never been to our house before, so I asked him what he wanted to talk to dh about. When he said he wanted to read the bible with him, I told him we would need to pass on that opportunity. (Dh had already expressed a few rules for visitors, and no "god talk" was near the top of the list.)

 

There really are proverbial atheists in foxholes. Most atheists I know are not interested in hedging their bets.

[hana]

Um. No.

 

I am an unbeliever, and I would hope my christian friends would come and talk about what I want to talk about. They can pray for me on their own time.

 

There really are proverbial atheists in foxholes. Most atheists I know are not interested in hedging their bets.

 

I agree. Someone pressing their beliefs on me (and in a frail state, anything more than "Can I talk to you about God?" would be too much) is not what I would call a friend.

[gardenmom5]

You know, I hear this reasoning a lot, but I don't buy it. I'm from a denomination that most other Christians consider to be "unsaved", and boy would I be *ticked* if somebody tried to preach to me on my death bed uninvited, even if I knew they fully believed I was destined for a lake of fire. I would wonder if they ever really respected my intelligence and my ability to make an informed choice.

 

But then, I'm not from a denomination that believes non-believers are on a one-way track to Hell, so I don't feel that same sense of urgency to "save" someone from themselves.

:iagree: My mother had been in very poor health, but death was expected to not be imminent, and I felt no need to rush to share my beliefs with her that last week. (I was also fighting an illness). We had shared many conversations over the years. However, my mother reported to me, my brother *had* been pressuring her that week with his latest "beliefs". (he doesn't take "I'm not interested" as an answer. I had to put my foot down. I found a print out while cleaning my mother's apartment. I was furious he had such little respect for her, and in that case it was *seriously* about lack of respect.)

 

That experience she had with my brother did spark a conversation between us - coincidently, the LAST conversation we ever had. She asked me what I believed and I was able to share my beliefs, and that God loved her and that I loved her. But she ASKED me first. (I didn't ask her if we could talk about God - she brought it up.)

 

eta: this was less than a week before my mother died. my brother had found something about some guy who "died" and went to hell. so the entirerty of my brother was sharing with her was she was going to go to hell and how horrible it was - according to his current belief. I found the print out he'd given her/read to her from and it was creepy beyond belief. I was furious with him - but I didn't know specifics until after she died. My brother may ocassionally refer to himself as a christian - but you'd NEVER know it by his behavior.

 

if someone is concerned about what will happen to them when they die, they know who among their family/acquaintence has religious beliefs and they will ask if they are interested!

Edited January 15, 2012 by gardenmom5

[Lovedtodeath]

IMO Frail Health = NO

[gardenmom5]

And therein lies the issue. Some people ARE coming from that viewpoint and that is why I would choose to give them the benefit of the doubt... That they were trying to be caring... And not being purposely rude. I also think if I were dying I wouldn't be all that concerned about polite vs. rude.

 

But I am from old school manners where you usually just smile, accept that the other person THINKS they are doing the right thing, feel blessed that they care enough to try, and let it go. YMMV

 

when dealing with a frail older person - you should be worried about polite vs rude because the line is VERY easily crossed to elder abuse. (I know my brother crossed that line - an ER Doc witnessed his manipulations of our mother and called me.) what would be acceptable with someone capable of standing up for themselves, isn't when you have someone who has no choice but to sit there and take it and has a harder time speaking.

 

A frail older person who is too polite for their own good may sit there and take it - while becoming increasingly agitated and can be left upset for hours after the visit ends requiring extra care to calm them. (or worse). even you are capable of getting up and leaving under premise of "I need to get going" if you become too agitated by what is being said to you, but a bedridden elderly person is not.

[catz]

Heather, I've heard a lot of people say this. They have always been Christians. I have never heard this point of view from someone who is actually an unbeliever. Why do you think that is?

 

:iagree: I can't imagine visiting a Christian on their death bed and telling them their entire belief system is wrong and they should consider switching over to mine? And preferably quickly. :confused:

[catz]

A frail older person who is too polite for their own good may sit there and take it - while becoming increasingly agitated and can be left upset for hours after the visit ends requiring extra care to calm them. (or worse). even you are capable of getting up and leaving under premise of "I need to get going" if you become too agitated by what is being said to you, but a bedridden elderly person is not.

 

:iagree: This is what I find alarming about this. My grandmother who was a devout catholic had 2 horrible, debilitating strokes last year before dying. They would have had to knock her out if someone would have come in and talked religion in this way with her. HER version of Catholicism was bringing her much comfort during that time and she definitely would not have wanted to hear anything else. And it breaks my heart to even think of someone doing that to her when she was in that condition.

 

If you want to talk about religion with someone you love, do it while they're able to participate in a 2 way, peer conversation. Not when they're vulnerable and weak.

[gardenmom5]

Not to mention, if the visitor was REALLY pestering B, she could have called the nurse to have security escort the neighbor out. Just saying.

 

that would take more strength of mind (and energy!) than many in a vulnerable position have. It would be so upsetting to that hospital patient. while some nurses may be aware enough to realize a visitor has crossed a line, most don't. the visitor is the one who crossed the line that never should have been approched.

 

My mother had a nurse who thought my brother was wonderful. (db is NPD) My mother's ER dr SAW firsthand my brother's repeated attempts at manipulation of her. My mother was never able to tell my brother to take a hike, she just laid there and took it, becoming more and more upset. the Dr. called ME, asking if I wanted hospital security to escort him off campus. (security was standing by, and the Dr had already consulted the hospitals lawyers over it.)

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, I've heard a lot of people say this. They have always been Christians. I have never heard this point of view from someone who is actually an unbeliever. Why do you think that is?

 

I can't say why that is. All I know is that my friend is heaven now because someone was "rude" enough to walk into her hospital room and pray for her. It is possible that she could have rejected this person, yelled at them, gotten offended, etc. But to this person it was worth the risk and I am eternally grateful to him wherever he is.

 

.

[keptwoman]

I can't say why that is. All I know is that my friend is heaven now because someone was "rude" enough to walk into her hospital room and pray for her. It is possible that she could have rejected this person, yelled at them, gotten offended, etc. But to this person it was worth the risk and I am eternally grateful to him wherever he is.

 

.

I've been thinking about this a lot Heather, and I still can't get your POV. Firstly, if the person asked and your friend accepted, then it isn't rude. Secondly if she was in that place, she most likely would have sought to talk about it with someone. Thirdly, if that was on her heart, and someone had not prayed with her, surely your God is not that cruel that he would have sent her to eternal ****ation because of the lack of actions of someone else? I assume he is expected to know what is on her heart?

 

Either way, for the reasons above, and many others, this situation is not a selling point for me.

[Lovedtodeath]

I've been thinking about this a lot Heather, and I still can't get your POV. Firstly, if the person asked and your friend accepted, then it isn't rude. Secondly if she was in that place, she most likely would have sought to talk about it with someone. Thirdly, if that was on her heart, and someone had not prayed with her, surely your God is not that cruel that he would have sent her to eternal ****ation because of the lack of actions of someone else?

Perhaps He sent them to her.

[Xuzi]

I've been thinking about this a lot Heather, and I still can't get your POV. Firstly, if the person asked and your friend accepted, then it isn't rude. Secondly if she was in that place, she most likely would have sought to talk about it with someone. Thirdly, if that was on her heart, and someone had not prayed with her, surely your God is not that cruel that he would have sent her to eternal ****ation because of the lack of actions of someone else? I assume he is expected to know what is on her heart?

 

Either way, for the reasons above, and many others, this situation is not a selling point for me.

 

This is where I get hung-up too. The Lord can see our hearts. I don't think third-party witnesses are necessary for someone's faith to be recognized by God. If someone is "ready to accept God" on their death bed, He knows.

[nmoira]

I can't say why that is. All I know is that my friend is heaven now because someone was "rude" enough to walk into her hospital room and pray for her. It is possible that she could have rejected this person, yelled at them, gotten offended, etc. But to this person it was worth the risk and I am eternally grateful to him wherever he is.

 

.

It takes some nerve to assume it's the interloper who is assuming all the risk when dealing with someone in their final days, with no regard to their comfort and peace of mind. I find this attitude to the the height of arrogance. Edited January 16, 2012 by nmoira
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