Do you ever question "ages & stages" in WTM?

[Sahamamama]

This forum is probably not the place to admit it, ;) but I've been reading a book that is highly critical of the "ages and stages" definition of classical education (Diane Lockman's Trivium Mastery). Honestly, when I borrowed the book from the library, I had no idea... :D

 

According to the author, authentic classical education as it was carried out for over 2,000 years was never structured as outlined in WTM (and other neo-classical resources). That is, it was not set up according to three age-based or grade-based stages -- Grammar (1st--4th grades), Logic (5th--8th grades), and Rhetoric (9th--12th grades). In fact, there were no grades. Nor did it teach grammar, logic, and rhetoric sequentially. Grammar (language), logic (critical thinking), and rhetoric (communication) were taught simultaneously. World history and the sciences were not taught on a four-year, repeating cycle starting at age six.

 

I knew this from LCC2, but it never clicked quite the same way, KWIM? I have been thinking (my husband just walked by and said "I thought I smelled smoke"). :glare: We already do not organize our history the WTM-way, and our science study is evolving in another direction, also. For us, I just don't see any problem with doing it differently, and for us, our way is "better."

 

Do you ever feel yourself moving away from the "ages and stages" approach of WTM/neo-classical education... towards... anything else as an organizing principle? If so, what pulls you?

[hmschooling]

I was strictly classical at first and now I'm like you! I veered more toward CM b/c it has classical flavor to it but in a more natural progression and more natural method. You meet the child where they are instead of following a certain outline..I'm a little short of words right now (started a new med that has me "off") so I'm not going to be able to explain in. I don't link starting the history cycle in K/1 and I don't anymore. We follow HOD's way of teaching which has been so effective in our home and produced better learners than our classical attempts ever did. The progression through the ages-stages make sense but there's something missing for sure..and teaching those together for some subjects and some kids just works.

[AvasMom]

I think that is really interesting actually. :) I might have to put that book on my list. The trivium makes sense for me simply because it matches my kids developmentally (so far) and I think it lines up well with what we know to be true about the cognitive development of children. They had very very different ideas about children back then. That being said, it sounds like this could be an interesting discussion and I'll be watching for replies.

[kalanamak]

We are 1/2 way through 4th grade, at 9.5 years, and I can feel a sea change coming.

 

Just today kiddo did his dictation PERFECTLY. First time ever! I gasped.

Also, things like being told Papa went to the store and later claiming her didn't know if he did, because, "he TOLD me he was going, but I didn't WITNESS it." And arguing just about every darned point. Constantly correcting the merest error of his parents. Suddenly having insight that there are things he does NOT know. Longer memory. Noticing more details.

 

There has been, a la Chairman Mao, a Great Leap Forward.

[jhschool]

I switched over to WTM this year (8th grade)

after doing 6 years of eclectic/unschooly/Waldorfy stuff

 

DS is *thriving* on logic (Intermediate and Introductory

texts suggested in WTM + text he chose himself),

grammar (diagramming with private tutor + simple things with me),

and Latin (loves his teacher, loves the grammar, declensions,

conjugations, etc.)

We started with Imitations in Writing (Aesop) to learn to outline,

which we never did before, and he did fine.

We are starting with the Classical Writing (Aesop and Homer)

next week. I read him the theory of progymnasmata (sp?) and

we are talking to a teacher to have him learn persuasive writing

(rhetoric).

 

So, he is learning grammar, logic, rhetoric, Latin, all at once and

he is doing great!

 

We also started Story of the World and are almost done with

the first volume--we are enjoying ourselves immensely! (Grammar-level

book I suppose but I decided to start at the beginning).

 

I don't see any reason why you couldn't teach everything whenever

your DC is ready. Unless they were very young and had no interest

in rhetoric--although, younger kids are experts at rhetoric sometimes.

Supposed logic-stagers are also brilliant rhetorists sometimes.

 

I say, if the stages works for you, great, but each child is different.

I see no reason to follow the stages blindly.

 

I am not surprised at all to hear that it wasn't taught in stages

for 2000 years. It makes sense.

[Hedgehogs4]

Do you ever feel yourself moving away from the "ages and stages" approach of WTM/neo-classical education... towards... anything else as an organizing principle? If so, what pulls you?

 

I think that the term "neo-classical" in and of itself is an oxymoron. Something cannot be both "new" and "classical" at the same time. I think the term should be "classical" with the understanding that a modern understanding of child development is implied. I do think that the study of history, great books, languages and philosphies, logic and rhetoric are what define a good, solid classical education, but I don't think it has to be done SWB's way in order to be "classical." I think she just kind of gives some really good ideas as to how to get it done. KWIM? It's not that we are trying to replicate the way they educated in ancient Greece...Lord knows I'm not putting my kid in a robe as their school uniform. :lol: I just think that the principles are applied and the philosophy exercised. People get really caught up in semantics. Perhaps they should just call it "a really good education" and not get so hung up on the "classical" part.

[Bluegoat]

Yes yes yes.

 

I don't think that the idea of equating the stages of life with aspects of the Trivium is totally without merit - I think there is some insight there, which shouldn't be a surprise as Dorothy Sayers was no dummy. Thinking about that can give some help in structuring a program.

 

But it isn't how I understand the idea of a classical education. To me that means an education where the student is engaged in the history of Western thought in a meaningful way.

 

I'm with hmschooling though - I've found Charlotte Mason to be much more classical than what is commonly purported as classical schooling - the neoclassical movement. I think what appeals to me is that the center of her idea is that the student needs to be understood to be a person in the deepest sense; and that the role of the teacher is to facilitate the environment and develop habits so that the student can actively engage in the best thoughts of humankind through the ages.

 

I find that classical systems kind of circle around that but don't quite pinpoint it, and it can leave the approach kind of hollow. (Mnid you, many classical educators don't fall into this, because their sense of their students means they fill in the gaps in the basis of their system.) But the Trivium as age stages and cyclical history and such just aren't adaquate as an insight into what human nature that needs to be educated is, and what education actually means. It is a method but not a principle.

 

There are a few concrete examples of this I see in more neoclassical approaches - one is the overuse of books that are, IMO, not at all adequate as literature. The other, which IMO is very serious, is the tendency to push the grammar stage far too young, so that children entering school at five or six (or even four) are considered grammar students. That is not at all developmentally appropriate IMO - those children are in a place that is developmentally quite different from the grammar students from about age nine to twelve. But the reason that it is possible to make the error is that the Trivium is not enough alone to describe how to educate children. - a more basic principle needs to be found, and that principle is the child himself.

[Sahamamama]

Some aspects of Dorothy Sayers' stages approach do ring true, but some of the details feel "off" to me. For example (IME), young children do memorize rote material easily, but I believe that the first years -- K, 1st, 2nd, and even the beginning of 3rd -- should be focused mainly on forming good habits, appreciating beauty, and enjoying language than on memory work. To the extent that memory work strengthens language and is beautiful, it is wonderful, but to separate the content of memory work from the context is a waste of time with students this young (IMO). Unless you review everything for years, much of it is "lost." And for so much of what is considered necessary memory work, these children are too young to grasp the context.

 

IME, the real Work Horse Rote Memory Years are from the middle of 3rd grade to about the end of 8th or 9th, depending on the student. Most middlers (3rd-5th) are able to spout out REAMS of stuff, LOL, but they may be able to tell you what they know about it, too. By the end of 8th/9th students want to make sense out of everything, and I think the ability to sit down and "memorize the page" deteriorates a bit because the student is more caught up in the why of it all -- including, "Why do I need to memorize this?" :lol:

 

WTM and CC and a few other methods put the burden of memory work in the earliest years, first through fourth. This is too soon, I think. I always wonder, "When you're doing that list of memory work, what else are you not doing?" Poetry, Bible passages, hymns, song lyrics -- these are great to utilize for memory content in the early years, but with the focus on becoming stronger in language and verbal expression.

[8filltheheart]

;) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324820&highlight=classical

 

However, I also do not believe that it is really possible to replicate an authentic classical education at home. True classical education relies heavily on the mastery of the teacher. I know for myself that I am so far from a master at anything! I think that the WTM has done a lot to raise the "modern" bar of education. It provides it guidelines for an excellent education.....I just don't believe classical is the correct classification for the education it provides.

[Terabith]

I think the ability to memorize easily drops off sharply around age 10 or 11. I know that the things I memorized prior to fifth grade I still know word perfect, but those I learned after that? Not so much.

 

However, I think at least 75% of that memory work done before age 10 or 11 should be poetry/ literature/ Bible and songs. Things of beauty and language. I think memorizing facts....math facts, history facts, geography facts, science facts, etc are important and should be done. But those should not be the primary things that are memorized. The idea is to learn by heart, and the heart needs things of beauty to cultivate it.

[laughing lioness]

I think that is really interesting actually. :) I might have to put that book on my list. The trivium makes sense for me simply because it matches my kids developmentally (so far) and I think it lines up well with what we know to be true about the cognitive development of children. They had very very different ideas about children back then. That being said, it sounds like this could be an interesting discussion and I'll be watching for replies.

:iagree:I remember hearing Joyce Herzog speak years ago saying that when she first researches something she goes to the kids section of the library and starts with kids books. I like that idea and have done it often enough myself. I think we learn things in the order of grammar, dialectic and rhetoric stage, regardless of our actual ages. So the trivium makes sense to me in the order of how we learn things, too- kwim?

Edited December 4, 2011 by laughing lioness

[Bluegoat]

Some aspects of Dorothy Sayers' stages approach do ring true, but some of the details feel "off" to me. For example (IME), young children do memorize rote material easily, but I believe that the first years -- K, 1st, 2nd, and even the beginning of 3rd -- should be focused mainly on forming good habits, appreciating beauty, and enjoying language than on memory work. To the extent that memory work strengthens language and is beautiful, it is wonderful, but to separate the content of memory work from the context is a waste of time with students this young (IMO). Unless you review everything for years, much of it is "lost." And for so much of what is considered necessary memory work, these children are too young to grasp the context.

 

IME, the real Work Horse Rote Memory Years are from the middle of 3rd grade to about the end of 8th or 9th, depending on the student. Most middlers (3rd-5th) are able to spout out REAMS of stuff, LOL, but they may be able to tell you what they know about it, too. By the end of 8th/9th students want to make sense out of everything, and I think the ability to sit down and "memorize the page" deteriorates a bit because the student is more caught up in the why of it all -- including, "Why do I need to memorize this?" :lol:

 

WTM and CC and a few other methods put the burden of memory work in the earliest years, first through fourth. This is too soon, I think. I always wonder, "When you're doing that list of memory work, what else are you not doing?" Poetry, Bible passages, hymns, song lyrics -- these are great to utilize for memory content in the early years, but with the focus on becoming stronger in language and verbal expression.

 

Including K, 1st and 2nd in grammar stage is really particular to WTM as far as I can see. Sayers and Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning have it start at about age 9, which is I think about right. But that seems to get lost among a lot of the classical educators I see online.

[boscopup]

WTM and CC and a few other methods put the burden of memory work in the earliest years, first through fourth. This is too soon, I think. I always wonder, "When you're doing that list of memory work, what else are you not doing?" Poetry, Bible passages, hymns, song lyrics -- these are great to utilize for memory content in the early years, but with the focus on becoming stronger in language and verbal expression.

 

What list of memory work are you seeing in WTM? She mentions poetry for the most part. She mentions math facts AFTER the child has learned the concept of the math (not rote memory work of things the child doesn't fully understand yet). It's quite different from what I understand CC-style memory work to be (memorizing things without context), which I personally do not practice. I don't think your list of memory work goes against WTM at all. Her focus is on poetry - beautiful things. I'm sure you could count Bible verses and hymns as your "poetry" also.

 

In WTM, you're learning things like grammar definitions AS you learn the grammar, but it's in context and during a lesson. For example, if you use FLL, you'll be reviewing the definition of a noun several times (SEVERAL times in FLL1 :lol:), but that's during the grammar lesson, not part of a separate "memory work" part of your day. It's just part of learning, just like you learn your math facts as part of math.

 

I think that the WTM has done a lot to raise the "modern" bar of education. It provides it guidelines for an excellent education.....I just don't believe classical is the correct classification for the education it provides.

 

Completely agree with this. There probably should be a different name for this style of education. I tend to just say I follow a WTM-style education, rather than saying I follow a "classical education".

 

I do think the stages are helpful and useful. You don't expect your first grader to necessarily think logically like an 8th grader, and your 6th grader should be starting to do more analysis than you expect of your 2nd grader. I don't think the ages/stages are exact, and I don't think SWB necessarily thinks that either (she has mentioned in her lectures that kids hit the stages at different times - some early, some late... it isn't BAM... 5th grade... You're in logic stage now!). I think the main point is to give a child appropriate type of work for the developmental stage they are in. So far, the recommendations in the WTM, as far as developmental readiness goes, have seemed very appropriate and actually quite gentle in the early elementary years.

[TheAutumnOak]

I actually have never questioned the "ages/stages" as written in TWTM...It makes sense to me, so I intend to go along with it...

[Mrs Twain]

Thank you for this interesting discussion. I have had some of the same questions, and I am interested to read all of the replies.

 

Sahamamama, I completely agree about memorizing facts along with the context. We always explain the context, and I find that my younger elementary aged kids can understand it fine as well as discuss difficult issues (as in history) very logically. It is good to develop the logical thinking when they are young and help them to make it a habit IMO.

 

I have planned history in a different way than the four year cycle. I think that only discussing the various time periods and events every four years is not often enough for young kids to retain the information and ideas. For the first half+ of the school year, I do a world history overview up to explorers. For the second half, I do American history. We add in living books and lapbooks so that we can learn a few areas in depth each year. I have been repeating this "cycle" every year. So far I think it is working extremely well because my kids are able to retain a lot of what they are learning year to year. I have lately found out that Epi Kardia organizes their history program in almost the same way.

 

I am thankful for WTM because I do think it raises the bar for homeschoolers, and that challenge is certainly needed. However, I don't think one must follow the philosophy exactly as prescribed.

[SorrelZG]

We are 1/2 way through 4th grade, at 9.5 years, and I can feel a sea change coming.

 

Just today kiddo did his dictation PERFECTLY. First time ever! I gasped.

Also, things like being told Papa went to the store and later claiming her didn't know if he did, because, "he TOLD me he was going, but I didn't WITNESS it." And arguing just about every darned point. Constantly correcting the merest error of his parents. Suddenly having insight that there are things he does NOT know. Longer memory. Noticing more details.

 

There has been, a la Chairman Mao, a Great Leap Forward.

 

This is possibly why I've never really grasped the ages/stages thing - this description fits my 5yo. Perhaps it's just that my firstborn has tainted my perception of reality. LCC made more sense to me. I haven't read the book in the OP. I'll check the library for it.

[ladydusk]

I first found myself questioning the "ages & stages" when I read Wisdom & Eloquence by Littlejohn & Evans (excellent book, BTW). However, I think Christopher Perrin does an excellent job bringing the two ideas together in his little pamphlet (free pdf download) An Introduction to Classical Education. Good stuff :)

[Colleen in NS]

What list of memory work are you seeing in WTM? She mentions poetry for the most part. She mentions math facts AFTER the child has learned the concept of the math (not rote memory work of things the child doesn't fully understand yet). ...

 

In WTM, you're learning things like grammar definitions AS you learn the grammar, but it's in context and during a lesson.

 

(bolding is mine) I am wondering the same thing. I used a lot of the memory suggestions for the WTM-defined grammar stage, and what I see is all in context (math facts in a math program, English grammar definitions within the lesson, Latin vocab/grammar forms within the simple Latin lesson - in fact, memory WAS the lesson for a long time in the series we used - etc.). I also see in the history and science lists, frameworks being memorized. Not random history and science facts, but frames that kids can hang later read information on. Looking back, I can say that those frameworks are coming in handy for my kids as they continue to read their way more deeply into history and science. Truly, just like the WTM book said, lol. And then things like literature/Bible/poetry/songs? They are all beautiful icing (that I DO include) on the cake - the demonstration of beauty in the language we are studying.

 

But now I realize I never did address your OP, Sahamamama. :D Hmm...no, I never really felt pulled away from the ages/stages of WTM. But that's probably because WTM was the first book that ever gave me a teaching structure, it made sense to me, and so I followed it. And so far things have pretty much worked out the way the book said they might. OK, so my son couldn't write a few paragraphs of a history or science report in grade 3, but SWB's introduction of WWE on the market told me that maybe WTM grade 3 writing suggestions may have been a little too ambitious for many eight year old boys, not just mine. :D But overall, the structure (whatever anyone wants to call it - classical, neo-classical, non-unschooling, whatever) did raise the bar on excellent education *in our generation* of home-educating, and it has helped many people (I know you, SHM, in particular know that - am just making a general statement). I believe SWB has probably learned right along with the rest of us, too, ever since publishing WTM twelve years ago.

 

I think what else might be going on, though, is that as some of those of us who maybe needed WTM years ago (as opposed to those homeschoolers who somehow knew how to educate their kids excellently) have gone along, they've (you've?) seen other aspects you liked/made more sense to you, and you've decided to break out and try (such as not doing biology all year long, or such as doing history geographically as opposed to chronologically). So long as you know WHY you are doing things the way you are, and your kids are still learning how to learn, then why not? I'm content to stay mostly within my trusty WTM framework, but more power to those who figure out different ways. I don't see anything wrong with that, if you are confident in why you are doing that.

[acurtis75]

I recently heard a speaker at a conference I attended say that people in general are predictable but specific people are totally unpredictable. I think that statement sums up the the WTM suggestions perfectly. I think in general they are appropriate for a large majority of children. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be right for your child. I see comments on this thread that say grammar stage shouldn't ever start before age 9 but other comments state that a 5 year old can do perfect narrations. I think WTM is an incredible resource to help us develop our own plan for our specific and unique children. Nobody's system is a perfect fit for everyone.

[SorrelZG]

I recently heard a speaker at a conference I attended say that people in general are predictable but specific people are totally unpredictable. I think that statement sums up the the WTM suggestions perfectly. I think in general they are appropriate for a large majority of children. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be right for your child. I see comments on this thread that say grammar stage shouldn't ever start before age 9 but other comments state that a 5 year old can do perfect narrations. I think WTM is an incredible resource to help us develop our own plan for our specific and unique children. Nobody's system is a perfect fit for everyone.

 

 

That makes sense.

[Another Lynn]

Some aspects of Dorothy Sayers' stages approach do ring true, but some of the details feel "off" to me. For example (IME), young children do memorize rote material easily, but I believe that the first years -- K, 1st, 2nd, and even the beginning of 3rd -- should be focused mainly on forming good habits, appreciating beauty, and enjoying language than on memory work. To the extent that memory work strengthens language and is beautiful, it is wonderful, but to separate the content of memory work from the context is a waste of time with students this young (IMO). Unless you review everything for years, much of it is "lost." And for so much of what is considered necessary memory work, these children are too young to grasp the context.

 

 

:iagree:

[Sahamamama]

What list of memory work are you seeing in WTM?

 

I am wondering the same thing.

 

You all please forgive me, I went to a CC open house two weeks ago, just to check it out in person, and have not yet recovered. :tongue_smilie:I think CC-style memory work for small fries was more of what I had in mind when I posted about content without the context. ;) We recited Latin, dontcha know? No one ever mentioned what it meant, though. There was NO explanation of anything, and I thought I would lose my mind. My children turned to me and whispered, "What does this mean? What does that mean?" They are accustomed to explanations and context, as much as they can understand and I can provide.

 

FWIW, I love what Jessie has done with OPG and FLL (we use both) and what Susan has done with WWE (which we also use). There is beauty in the memorizing well-written poetry (which was seriously lacking at CC), and I'm forever thankful that Jessie brought poetry memorization and recitation into our lives. My three girls could ALL stand up and recite poem after poem, or Bible passage after Bible passage, or hymn after hymn -- young as they are -- and that is through WTM methods.

 

I think my main question was about the "ages and stages" proposal of Dorothy Sayers -- how that is NOT the traditional, centuries-old meaning of "classical education." Thanks, 8fillstheheart, for that link to the other thread. I've been reading that and my eyes are drying out now. LOL.

[redsquirrel]

Well, I never thought of the 'ages and stages' as set in stone or something I MUST follow. SWB knows a lot about history and teaching and writing and prob a few other things, but she doesn't know my kids. That said, the method clicks for my kids in a big way. So, I use it as one of the tools in my tool box.

[laughing lioness]

What I bolded conveys well part of the reason we ditched Classical Conversations after two years. Memory work without the context can be beneficial in some instances, but if it isn't reinforced regularly, I fear it's pretty much lost. And why would I spend the time reinforcing random facts or lists that had no real meaning for us in the first place? Blech.

 

This year our memory work is focused on geography (which we enjoy) and poetry (which we are learning to appreciate).

 

(Haven't read all of the other replies yet; sorry if this was a hijack of sorts.)

 

I do think much of CC is random but I caution throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My 2 youngest were invovled in CC at 4-6 and 7-10 yo. They memorize easily and well. They memorize a lot of stuff, often times without realizing it. Their understanding of VP history timeline is amazing- and they have tucked away a myriad of poems and historical facts, all because they were trained at an early age to memorize vast amounts of information.

The history that they know and understand amazes me- but it has been reinforced over and over again, just in various ways. The rote memorization that they did early on has set a great foundation for them.

[AvasMom]

We are 1/2 way through 4th grade, at 9.5 years, and I can feel a sea change coming.

 

Just today kiddo did his dictation PERFECTLY. First time ever! I gasped.

Also, things like being told Papa went to the store and later claiming her didn't know if he did, because, "he TOLD me he was going, but I didn't WITNESS it." And arguing just about every darned point. Constantly correcting the merest error of his parents. Suddenly having insight that there are things he does NOT know. Longer memory. Noticing more details.

 

There has been, a la Chairman Mao, a Great Leap Forward.

 

My ds just turned 10 and is in 4th grade. He has the WORST habit of arguing lately. He's driving us all nuts with it! So I had this epiphany earlier tonight while going over logic stage stuff for him for next year. The boy is not being naughty, he's entering logic stage! I feel like I did when he was a baby and was being fussy and it dawned on me that he was teething. Duh. lol! :tongue_smilie:

[LAS in LA]

 

There has been, a la Chairman Mao, a Great Leap Forward.

 

Here's hoping it works out better for you (and us!) than it did for the Chairman! :cheers2:

[stripe]

I feel the WTM has lots of excellent resources appropriate for various ages, but I do not really subscribe to the ages & stages perspective.

[boscopup]

You all please forgive me, I went to a CC open house two weeks ago, just to check it out in person, and have not yet recovered. :tongue_smilie:I think CC-style memory work for small fries was more of what I had in mind when I posted about content without the context. ;)

 

I'd agree with that. I have had no desire whatsoever to even step foot in CC. I look at it and think, "It'd take a whole day out of my school week and would teach a lot of memorization that would be completely useless until the child studies that material at an older age, meaning you're locked into CC for years and years. No thank you." :)

 

My son would also want to know about the material and not at all be satisfied with learning things out of context.

 

I think my main question was about the "ages and stages" proposal of Dorothy Sayers -- how that is NOT the traditional, centuries-old meaning of "classical education."

I agree that it's not the traditional, centuries-old meaning of "classical education". They also started that education much later, right? Here in the US, most states require students to begin "school" by age 7 or so. And really, what is it about the "grammar stage" that young students aren't ready for? You're just learning basic facts in context, right? I do think a focus should be on the 3R's until the child is reading well, but these days, many children are reading by 1st or 2nd grade and ready to start learning some history and science. I don't think you have to strictly adhere to the 4 year cycle either. I'm taking a detour into American History the next 2 years since my son already "finished world history" on his own. :tongue_smilie: My middle son has some language delay, and may not be ready for history in 1st. It will be an optional subject for him that year. If he's ready, we'll go full speed ahead. If he's still struggling with understanding the material, we'll back off with it. My youngest will join the history cycle in K, and I'll bet he'll be ready for it, and he'll probably already be reading before then anyway (he's following the pattern of my oldest). So I'm adjusting things to fit my kids. The WTM is not a Bible. I don't have to follow every word. ;) It's just a really good book that gives some really good ideas. :D

[Crimson Wife]

What list of memory work are you seeing in WTM? She mentions poetry for the most part. She mentions math facts AFTER the child has learned the concept of the math (not rote memory work of things the child doesn't fully understand yet). It's quite different from what I understand CC-style memory work to be (memorizing things without context), which I personally do not practice.

 

What about the suggestions to memorize laundry lists of historical figures like the Egyptian pharaohs, Roman emperors, or the monarchs of England in chronological order? I love TWTM, but that kind of rote memorization is something I just don't see the need for in this age of Google. The books of the Bible, that I can see as being handy to a Christian for ease in locating a Scriptural reference (though I don't personally have them memorized).

[Murmer]

I recently heard a speaker at a conference I attended say that people in general are predictable but specific people are totally unpredictable. I think that statement sums up the the WTM suggestions perfectly. I think in general they are appropriate for a large majority of children. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be right for your child. I see comments on this thread that say grammar stage shouldn't ever start before age 9 but other comments state that a 5 year old can do perfect narrations. I think WTM is an incredible resource to help us develop our own plan for our specific and unique children. Nobody's system is a perfect fit for everyone.

 

This is how I think about it. Having taught in PS a variety of ages there is something about that 3rd/4th/5th grade jump. It is so incredible to see the change that happens in those grades. That said 1st and 2nd graders are jumping at the bit for "fun" facts. I think WTM is a large idea kind of things but then it must be tapered for developmental needs of the child. Also I think to advantage of WTM is that it is developed to be used with multiple ages of children so that you can combine easily history and science which is what the true advantage of the 4 year cycles is.

[Haiku]

Any method of homeschooling is (or education in general) is just someone's interpretation on how best to educate kids. I don't think there is any one best way. All kids are different. "Ages and stages" is SWB's organizing principle. Other people will have other organizing principles. The way things were done 1,000 years in monastery schools was someone else's organizing principle. Today's public school education, with it's NCLB testing, is someone else's organizing principle. There is no magic bullet.

 

Homeschooling philosophy, to me, should be a framework, not a prison.

 

Tara

[LND1218]

This forum is probably not the place to admit it, ;) but I've been reading a book that is highly critical of the "ages and stages" definition of classical education (Diane Lockman's Trivium Mastery). Honestly, when I borrowed the book from the library, I had no idea... :D

 

 

Just quoting a snippet to save space.

Diane Lockman makes these claims that classical ed isn't about the ages/stages etc but what are her credentials and what evidence does she use to support her claims?

 

I do think that the WTM does things that aren't historically classical - they didn't teach history in a 4 year cycle. I think some of the methods are to make classical education do able for parents in our current society.

 

Look to some authorities in the classical education world and see what they say before you decide who to agree with. I found that book thought provoking but lacking in evidence to support the claims.

 

I think CC-style memory work for small fries was more of what I had in mind when I posted about content without the context. ;) We recited Latin, dontcha know? No one ever mentioned what it meant, though. There was NO explanation of anything, and I thought I would lose my mind. My children turned to me and whispered, "What does this mean? What does that mean?" They are accustomed to explanations and context, as much as they can understand and I can provide.

 

With CC and the Latin, the students already learned what each of the words meant. The students already knew the vocab - that was taught first. Now they are putting their vocab into a passage of scripture.

 

Memory work is an exercise for the brain. There are some great resources out there on what memorizing doesn't for the brain. We use CC to train our children's brains. And because in our home learning never stops nothing is ever out of context. These things come up all the time.

 

What about the suggestions to memorize laundry lists of historical figures like the Egyptian pharaohs, Roman emperors, or the monarchs of England in chronological order? I love TWTM, but that kind of rote memorization is something I just don't see the need for in this age of Google. The books of the Bible, that I can see as being handy to a Christian for ease in locating a Scriptural reference (though I don't personally have them memorized).

 

But Google can't always be trusted. And for us like I mentioned it's less about the information and more about the exercise of the brain. There are lot of other ways to accomplish this too though. CC/TWTM memory work are just 2 of the many ways.

[Kalmia]

Boscopup: I do think the stages are helpful and useful. You don't expect your first grader to necessarily think logically like an 8th grader, and your 6th grader should be starting to do more analysis than you expect of your 2nd grader. I don't think the ages/stages are exact, and I don't think SWB necessarily thinks that either (she has mentioned in her lectures that kids hit the stages at different times - some early, some late... it isn't BAM... 5th grade... You're in logic stage now!). I think the main point is to give a child appropriate type of work for the developmental stage they are in. So far, the recommendations in the WTM, as far as developmental readiness goes, have seemed very appropriate and actually quite gentle in the early elementary years.

 

I agree with Boscopup. All you have to do is listen to Susan's lecture on the Real Child to know she doesn't see children as progressing lockstep through the stages.

[elegantlion]

I've always leaned more towards the LCC model of classical education. Although we started homeschooling in first grade, we didn't start classical ed until 5th. LCC gave me a better direction to start from, at least for me. I ascribe to LCC feeling more classical to me than WTM. But as 8 stated true classical is not necessarily feasible in a home environment due to the lack of expertise.

 

We don't follow a 4 year history rotation, but I do use WTM methods in some subjects. WTM and both LCC books sit side-by-side on my shelf, both get used repeatedly.

 

I've read the Dorothy Sayers essay and Climbing Parnassus and some of Adler's work. One might say classical is the process of how you educate, some might say classical is the subjects you chose to become educated. We mix it up a little, using some classical subjects, some classical processes. In our 4th year of classical education, I call our philosophy Adapted Classical. It works for us.

[kalanamak]

Here's hoping it works out better for you (and us!) than it did for the Chairman! :cheers2:

 

 

I just love the English translations of Chinese-isms, like the tea The Iron Goddess of Mercy. Many moons ago I wandered through NYC's Chinatown with a native speaker. She said that the Chinese thought it ill-luck to toot your own horn, and that the restaurants that were called Jade Palace in English were named "Same Old Stuff" on the sign in Chinese. :)

[Hedgehogs4]

You all please forgive me, I went to a CC open house two weeks ago, just to check it out in person, and have not yet recovered. :tongue_smilie:I think CC-style memory work for small fries was more of what I had in mind when I posted about content without the context. ;) We recited Latin, dontcha know? No one ever mentioned what it meant, though. There was NO explanation of anything, and I thought I would lose my mind. My children turned to me and whispered, "What does this mean? What does that mean?" They are accustomed to explanations and context, as much as they can understand and I can provide.

 

FWIW, I love what Jessie has done with OPG and FLL (we use both) and what Susan has done with WWE (which we also use). There is beauty in the memorizing well-written poetry (which was seriously lacking at CC), and I'm forever thankful that Jessie brought poetry memorization and recitation into our lives. My three girls could ALL stand up and recite poem after poem, or Bible passage after Bible passage, or hymn after hymn -- young as they are -- and that is through WTM methods.

 

I think my main question was about the "ages and stages" proposal of Dorothy Sayers -- how that is NOT the traditional, centuries-old meaning of "classical education." Thanks, 8fillstheheart, for that link to the other thread. I've been reading that and my eyes are drying out now. LOL.

 

:iagree: It's like you're supposed to just go along with the program and while you're at it you can say, "my kid is studying Latin..." Really?

 

I'm reading a book about Queen Victoria aloud to the kids, and it lays out in detail the education that the Princess was given to prepare her...now THAT was a classical education, and you'd better believe there was memory work and there was CONTEXT. It was a very good representation of what a child of decent intellect can accomplish, given the right circumstances.

[Joyofsixreboot]

For my children, the ages and stages don't hold true. They may for others. What I've gleaned from WTM, CK, CM and other educational schools of thought is that there are many ways to reach a desired destination and that the beauty of homeschooling is the freedom to mix and match for each family.

[momto2Cs]

I was strictly classical at first and now I'm like you! I veered more toward CM b/c it has classical flavor to it but in a more natural progression and more natural method. You meet the child where they are instead of following a certain outline.

 

But it isn't how I understand the idea of a classical education. To me that means an education where the student is engaged in the history of Western thought in a meaningful way.

 

I'm with hmschooling though - I've found Charlotte Mason to be much more classical than what is commonly purported as classical schooling - the neoclassical movement. I think what appeals to me is that the center of her idea is that the student needs to be understood to be a person in the deepest sense; and that the role of the teacher is to facilitate the environment and develop habits so that the student can actively engage in the best thoughts of humankind through the ages.

 

...The other, which IMO is very serious, is the tendency to push the grammar stage far too young, so that children entering school at five or six (or even four) are considered grammar students. That is not at all developmentally appropriate IMO - those children are in a place that is developmentally quite different from the grammar students from about age nine to twelve. But the reason that it is possible to make the error is that the Trivium is not enough alone to describe how to educate children. - a more basic principle needs to be found, and that principle is the child himself.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: We've definitely moved to a CM type education, which for us is classical and fits my children's needs/levels better. I bolded the parts above that really struck me as a foundation of how I see learning. My son fits the classic WTM stages far better than my daughter, but even so I see areas where he doesn't fall into one stage or the other, but instead a meeting of the two, in this case both grammar and logic.

[Elizabeth in MN]

None of the ages and stages things every applied to my daughter beyond the first year of life, and even then only the physical development stuff.

 

Not Charlotte Mason

Not Waldorf

Not Ames and Ing

Not WTM

 

Not a single bit of it has applied to my child.

[Colleen in NS]

You all please forgive me, I went to a CC open house two weeks ago, just to check it out in person, and have not yet recovered. :tongue_smilie:

 

hahaha, you are funny! :lol: I've always enjoyed your posts.

 

I think my main question was about the "ages and stages" proposal of Dorothy Sayers -- how that is NOT the traditional, centuries-old meaning of "classical education." Thanks, 8fillstheheart, for that link to the other thread. I've been reading that and my eyes are drying out now. LOL.

 

Oh dear, I did veer off track a bit - sorry about that!

 

Hope you recover a bit. :D

 

ha, this reminds me of reading past articles on the Memoria Press site, about learning Latin. While they were VERY helpful, I also came to realize that Latin-teaching is part of their very fiber. I also realized that I just did not have the time to devote an hour or more to Latin memory work every day. So I took the general principles for Latin memory, and created my own memory work routine for Latin. My kids get what they need (and they still tell me it's too much, lol), but we don't go through every single thing every single day. I also created our own exercise study pattern that was a little less intense but still accomplishes the objective of memory and translation practice. It's working just fine (so far!).

 

What about the suggestions to memorize laundry lists of historical figures like the Egyptian pharaohs, Roman emperors, or the monarchs of England in chronological order? I love TWTM, but that kind of rote memorization is something I just don't see the need for in this age of Google. The books of the Bible, that I can see as being handy to a Christian for ease in locating a Scriptural reference (though I don't personally have them memorized).

 

What if you have your kids memorize the books of the Bible when they are young, but they decide not to read their Bibles when they get older? Will you then consider it to have been a waste of time to memorize them? Or is there some other reason you believe it is important to do now? If there is, can you think of reasons why a historian might think it's important to have young kids memorize lists of pharaohs/etc.; or why a scientist might think it's important for young kids to memorize science definitions or lists (types of clouds, makeup of the earth's layers, chemistry or physics definitions, etc.)? Or why a generalist might still believe these things are important?

 

The way I see it is that if it's within my young child's mental capacity to memorize things like this (major content-study frameworks, as opposed to random factoids out of millions of random factoids within each discipline), then we will memorize, as far as they are able without stressing them out. Google or no google - creating big and encompassing mental frameworks within a mind while that mind is flexible enough to absorb it is FAR more efficient than having to stop and google everything when they get older. They can just rely on their memory storehouse of wealth - they can refer to those frameworks as they read/write/experiment their way through history and science study at higher levels.

 

I think some of the methods are to make classical education do able for parents in our current society.

 

(bolding is mine) :iagree::iagree::iagree: The WTM book brought me order out of random chaos. Now I understand a few things about educating my kids, and can knowledgeably adapt as I go.

[TheAutumnOak]

I've always leaned more towards the LCC model of classical education. Although we started homeschooling in first grade, we didn't start classical ed until 5th. LCC gave me a better direction to start from, at least for me. I ascribe to LCC feeling more classical to me than WTM. But as 8 stated true classical is not necessarily feasible in a home environment due to the lack of expertise.

 

We don't follow a 4 year history rotation, but I do use WTM methods in some subjects. WTM and both LCC books sit side-by-side on my shelf, both get used repeatedly.

 

I've read the Dorothy Sayers essay and Climbing Parnassus and some of Adler's work. One might say classical is the process of how you educate, some might say classical is the subjects you chose to become educated. We mix it up a little, using some classical subjects, some classical processes. In our 4th year of classical education, I call our philosophy Adapted Classical. It works for us.

 

What is LCC?...I checked the abbreviations and can't find it...

[Bloggermom]

What is LCC?...I checked the abbreviations and can't find it...

 

Latin Centered Curriculum

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1930953739/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=ldsclassical-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1930953739

[MeganW]

You all please forgive me, I went to a CC open house two weeks ago, just to check it out in person, and have not yet recovered. :tongue_smilie:I think CC-style memory work for small fries was more of what I had in mind when I posted about content without the context. ;) We recited Latin, dontcha know? No one ever mentioned what it meant, though. There was NO explanation of anything, and I thought I would lose my mind. My children turned to me and whispered, "What does this mean? What does that mean?" They are accustomed to explanations and context, as much as they can understand and I can provide.

...

There is beauty in the memorizing well-written poetry (which was seriously lacking at CC),

 

 

 

It's all in what you make it! Using the curriculum guide, I try to make sure that we have talked about at home (at least in general) all of the info BEFORE we go to CC. (So for the week before we talked about the digestive system in class, we read books about it, watched the Magic School Bus about it, etc. etc.) So when they got to class, they already had a basic idea of what those things were. I'm not going to say I manage to get that done for everything, but I try for pre-exposure.

 

I will admit that I have completely ignored the Latin for my kindergarteners, though moms of older kids at our CC group say that they questioned it at our age but are so glad now that they learned it. I would agree that adding poetry would be a great addition, but it's so much a matter of taste. It would be very hard for them to choose appropriate pieces.

 

The first 2 weeks we were at CC, I was thinking this is "this is absurd - there is no way that they can possibly learn all this, retain it, and get anything out of it". By the 3rd & 4th weeks, my kids were getting the hang of it. At this point, I wouldn't call it easy, but it certainly isn't the big deal I thought it was. I try to choose read-alouds ahead of time that relate to what we will be learning at CC. The tutor introduces the material, and then we review it once at home. After that, we just listen to the CD in the car, and they have it down. Yes, I am saying that my 6.5 year olds are easily learning & remembering these massive quantities of information - much more easily than I am. I find myself having to refer to my notes repeatedly, or ask one of the kids.

 

I assume that by listening to the CD once through every month or so, they should retain this info long-term. Only time will tell of course...

Edited December 4, 2011 by MeganW

[Bluegoat]

 

I agree that it's not the traditional, centuries-old meaning of "classical education". They also started that education much later, right? Here in the US, most states require students to begin "school" by age 7 or so. And really, what is it about the "grammar stage" that young students aren't ready for? You're just learning basic facts in context, right? I do think a focus should be on the 3R's until the child is reading well, but these days, many children are reading by 1st or 2nd grade and ready to start learning some history and science.

 

I think there are some real differences between the 5 to 7 or 8 crowd, and the 8 or 9 to 12 crowd.

 

The younger group tends to be quite developmentally disparate, so while one child is ready to read at 4, another may be reading little at 7. Many may not be fluent readers until near the end of that stage. The same is true of writing. Their comprehention will typically be far above their ability to read and write. Their attention span is shorter. They are still likely to be very involved in learning the social and disciplinary aspects of being a student.

 

But in particular, I would say that they are still tied to the concrete. There experience of actual things still requires a lot of reinforcement, and moving the body and handling objects is still a big part of their brain development and learning processes.

 

I think we see that in most of the good math curricula. And studies suggest that with math, moving from the concrete to quickly will result in kids that may be able to solve the equations, but they won't necessarily understand them. And remedial work is not a matter of just redoing things because the brain changes the way it take in information.

 

I suspect the same is true for other kinds of abstractions, like formal grammar. I don't think learning the rules or lists will necessarily be helpful later on when the subject is really understood, because the brain has not really stored the memorized material in a way that is easily accessible or linked up with the context.

 

I've noticed a fair number of people on the board who are saying they notice a big difference in their kids at around age 9 or 10, in their ability to abstract and accomplish a lot of work - my suspicion is that is when they are reallt entering the true grammar stage where traditionally children were sent to begin really serious schooling.

[Beth in SW WA]

 

Do you ever feel yourself moving away from the "ages and stages" approach of WTM/neo-classical education... towards... anything else as an organizing principle? If so, what pulls you?

 

I never did TWTM as originally intended. I don't have cookie-cutter kids so I can't use a cookie-cutter approach. We do more math than SWB suggests. We will most likely bypass Latin to accomplish a more STEM focus. We do history, science at our whim -- not according to any contrived 'cycle' or stage. I'm not married to 'classical/neo-classical' ed by any means.

 

I reserve the right to change my mind next week. :)

[kalphs]

This forum is probably not the place to admit it, ;) but I've been reading a book that is highly critical of the "ages and stages" definition of classical education (Diane Lockman's Trivium Mastery). Honestly, when I borrowed the book from the library, I had no idea... :D

 

According to the author, authentic classical education as it was carried out for over 2,000 years was never structured as outlined in WTM (and other neo-classical resources). That is, it was not set up according to three age-based or grade-based stages -- Grammar (1st--4th grades), Logic (5th--8th grades), and Rhetoric (9th--12th grades). In fact, there were no grades. Nor did it teach grammar, logic, and rhetoric sequentially. Grammar (language), logic (critical thinking), and rhetoric (communication) were taught simultaneously. World history and the sciences were not taught on a four-year, repeating cycle starting at age six.

 

I knew this from LCC2, but it never clicked quite the same way, KWIM? I have been thinking (my husband just walked by and said "I thought I smelled smoke"). :glare: We already do not organize our history the WTM-way, and our science study is evolving in another direction, also. For us, I just don't see any problem with doing it differently, and for us, our way is "better."

 

Do you ever feel yourself moving away from the "ages and stages" approach of WTM/neo-classical education... towards... anything else as an organizing principle? If so, what pulls you?

Good point!

From what Dh and I noticed the WTM assigns the stages of the trivium to coincide with the age/grade levels in the public/private schools.

On the other hand in Dorothy Sayers essay "The Lost Tools of Learning" http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html stages of the trivium are spoken of as phases of learning.

Dh and I view the trivium as a "developemental process."

Each individual is different and will progress through the trivium at their own pace.

 

:)

Edited December 12, 2011 by kalphs

[9763653]

I have recently read TWTM, and it was eye-opening for me. While the ages and stages may not turn out to exactly apply to my specific children, the way in which education is organized in TWTM makes an awful lot of sense to me - in fact, it is the first education philosophy that makes any sense to me, and also fits in relatively well with obligations we will have toward the state (living in Europe). TWTM offers me a clear guide, and I am grateful that I don't have to work it all out blindly, by myself.

 

I only have one school-aged child at the moment, and she is in first grade. My opinion may not be relevant. But, SWB's guidelines certainly look reasonable to me; working on a solid foundation first, and then building on that in further study, following a pattern that looks sound to me.

 

While I was reading the logic and rhetoric stage parts, I realized just to what extent my own education was lacking. I didn't get the proper foundation, and

am now educating myself in the areas that are lacking, following SWB's suggestions - being in my thirties! It's never too late to receive a proper education, but some students will be able to do more, earlier on.

 

Perhaps what is laid out in TWTM is not strictly speaking a classical education, but it certainly is a thorough education that should open wonderful opportunities to any student. There are other possible paths to follow, and perhaps studying logic and rhetoric simultaneously works well too (for instance), but we have to have some kind of schedule, and TWTM's schedule looks solid and practical to me.

[grace'smom]

I'm reading a book about Queen Victoria aloud to the kids, and it lays out in detail the education that the Princess was given to prepare her...now THAT was a classical education, and you'd better believe there was memory work and there was CONTEXT. It was a very good representation of what a child of decent intellect can accomplish, given the right circumstances.

 

I'd love to know the title of that book if you don't mind sharing... :D

[warneral]

:iagree: It's like you're supposed to just go along with the program and while you're at it you can say, "my kid is studying Latin..." Really?

 

I'm reading a book about Queen Victoria aloud to the kids, and it lays out in detail the education that the Princess was given to prepare her...now THAT was a classical education, and you'd better believe there was memory work and there was CONTEXT. It was a very good representation of what a child of decent intellect can accomplish, given the right circumstances.

 

Kelly, what is the book called? I watched "young victoria" last night and wanted to read about her after watching it.

[LMD]

I'd love to know the title of that book if you don't mind sharing... :D

 

I'd be interested too. :bigear:

 

I was recently talking to my dad about his education. He went to school in England, didn't start until about age 9 - he spent his early years free range in India avoiding wild animals. He was telling me of a highschool assignment (about age 15), translate Homer's Odyssey from Latin into English :eek:, they would race to get it done because the story was so rivetting!

 

They sure don't do anything like that around here...