treading gently here...

[Onceuponatime]

I would like to ask for more patience, understanding, and real options for those who spank, swat or "thump" their children, or have done so in the past.

 

I'm not saying it's right, but consider this: For generations, even centuries, millions of parents have used these methods on their children and have done it because it was expected of them. That's how their parents raised them. They were told it was the right way. They believed they were doing it because they loved their children. They believe their parents did it out of love.

 

Many classic children's books have examples of "loving parents" using corporal punishment. Little House on the Prairie and Little Men are a couple. We praise these books and read them to our children.

 

It has really only been in the last half century that that mind set has been calling what was once acceptable and common "abuse." (I'm not talking about more severe punishments with harmful physical consequences, and I am not talking about the Pearls.) Now, if spanking or switching is abuse, then our parents and grandparents and great grandparents, who we love, were abusers. That can be hard to swallow.

 

If we say that they were not abusers, they were just ignorant, then we must allow for that ignorance in society today and gently educate instead of verbally shame and chastise.

 

I can't write any more at the moment, but this is my opinion, fwiw.

[creekland]

Mine are too old to spank now and have absolutely no need anyway, but I'll freely admit to being a spanker in the past when it has been needed and I'd continue to do so in the future if I had any more kids. I honestly don't care what others think. It's not abuse. There's nothing at all mentally that I need to get over. I simply disagree with the current fad. To each our own. ;)

 

(Like you, I'm not talking about the type of spanking that is abuse.)

[Mrs Mungo]

When my babies were nursing and they bit me I pulled them in towards me to cut off the air to their nose. Babies have very good survival instincts. They let go and it enourages them not to bite. It got the job done without smacking or thumping a baby.

 

I am not 100% anti-spanking. I am anti-spanking babies. I am against hitting kids with a switch until they cannot breathe. I have no patience, tolerance or understanding of that.

[delaney]

If my toddler dashes out into the road he WILL get smacked on the rump. Some things need a firmer understanding in my house. Situations that can kill you are one of them. If he climbs on the counter I pull him off and will Super Nanny him with a 30 minute round of that if needed, but will not swat him. I reserve the right to swat in extreme circumstances. Is it abuse? No, obviously not. I appreciate you asking for me to have patience and look for real options but I find it offensive. I am a deist and do not ask for you to examine your religious beliefs so that you may take on my beliefs. These threads never end well so I am at a lose as to why start one.

[GinaPagnato]

Mine are too old to spank now and have absolutely no need anyway, but I'll freely admit to being a spanker in the past when it has been needed and I'd continue to do so in the future if I had any more kids. I honestly don't care what others think. It's not abuse. There's nothing at all mentally that I need to get over. I simply disagree with the current fad. To each our own. ;)

 

(Like you, I'm not talking about the type of spanking that is abuse.)

 

 

 

:iagree: I used spanking when necessary, and within reason. My kids are happy, well-adjusted, and a whole heck of a lot better behaved than most of their peers who spent lots of time in time-out, lol! They know and understand rules and boundaries, and are respectful to others because they have been disciplined and trained. And yes, sometimes that meant they got spankings.

 

It's ridiculous to say that those who sometimes use spanking in their discipline are either abusers, ignorant, or suffer from psychological dysfunction.

[Pam Wilhelm]

I'm for swatting a kid when they are heading for the electrical outlet with a fork to see what it does....... (toddlers)

 

I'm also for swatting a kid when they are taking a cricket impaled on a long pin and heading for the electrical outlet to watch it fry....... (when my Mom saw my brothers doing this...they were preteen and teens)

 

I'm for swatting a kid when they mouth off to me using foul language in a particularly vile manner...... (teen I used to babysit years ago)

 

 

I don't particularly like premeditated spankings.... but the quick (and not hard) swats that sort of happen to keep the kid safe from something worse happening.... that is what I've always done.

[melissad2]

IDK how I feel about it. My kids have gotten spankings and we do the whole time-out thing. Most of the time a time-out isn't effective for my oldest bit OTOH neither is spanking. Now, losing a privilege usually works pretty well for the oldest. I've been look at the Focus on the Family website and find some pretty creative consequences there but don't agree with all of them. I guess I'm still figuring out which parenting style works best for me and my kids. ;)

[Momof3littles]

And in decades past, people didn't even believe babies felt pain. Circumcisions and more intense surgeries were performed on babies who were thought to not even feel pain :(

 

I think the argument that it has been going on for hundreds of years really glosses over the amount we've learned about child development and psychology.

 

I honestly don't understand how smacking a toddler on the rump will prevent them from running the next time. Psychologically, young toddlers have poor impulse control. Why not just keep them from running, period? We've never swatted a child for trying to take off. If they attempt to run away or I feel they might, they go directly into the stroller, the sling, hold my hand, or be carried. I see absolutely no point in punishing afterward. As my kids have matured it hasn't been a problem. I wouldn't want to rely on the "lesson" taught from previous spankings for running into the street..IMO, why not prevent in the first place? If I'm not preventing, I'm not doing my job as a parent, and I would be angry with myself if my child took off. Ditto any other dangerous situation that people advocate spanking for. I'd rather use the twist style outlet covers than have to swat a toddler attempting to stick a fork in there.

[Onceuponatime]

If my toddler dashes out into the road he WILL get smacked on the rump. Some things need a firmer understanding in my house. Situations that can kill you are one of them. If he climbs on the counter I pull him off and will Super Nanny him with a 30 minute round of that if needed, but will not swat him. I reserve the right to swat in extreme circumstances. Is it abuse? No, obviously not. I appreciate you asking for me to have patience and look for real options but I find it offensive. I am a deist and do not ask for you to examine your religious beliefs so that you may take on my beliefs. These threads never end well so I am at a lose as to why start one.

 

 

I don't understand your point. My post had nothing about religion and was not religious in any way. I was not asking those who spank to have patience with those who choose not to, but a little patience all around would be a good thing, don't you think? I was asking those who do not spank to try to understand the background of those who do and to not judge so quickly.

 

I was not asking anyone to justify their position.

 

Peace.

[TXMary2]

I am not anti-spanking, but I find it isn't effective all the time. My little one is the only one not too big to be spanked, but even with him the removal of privileges works better than a spanking. I do time outs for a cooling off period.

 

I think the definition of abuse has been watered down and I find it shameful because it will cause people to pay less attention to REAL abuse. Spanking is not abuse, BEATING and PELTING that causes bruising, swelling and bleeding is abuse. Anything that leaves a mark beyond a red temporary sting, is abuse. Name calling, insulting and screaming in one's face is emotional abuse and shouldn't be put in the same category of physical abuse. JMO of course.

[Ellie]

That they used physical correction of some kind does not mean they were ignorant. Neither were they abusers. It is not clear to me that children--especially older children--are better behaved today, or better adjusted emotionally, than they were in previous generations when parents physically corrected their dc for misbehavior.

[Firefly]

When you know better, you do better. Parents of past generations did what their parents did. But what if you could could get the same results and never had to strike your child? We did not spank. I never raised a hand to either of my children, ever. We had gentle, firm discipline in the form of consequences and boundaries. No spanking does not = no discipline; there is such a thing as discipline without physical punishment. That said, do I think people who spank are abusers? No. But I do think there is a better way.

[Onceuponatime]

I think the argument that it has been going on for hundreds of years really glosses over the amount we've learned about child development and psychology.

 

.

 

This is what I am talking about, the general assumption that everyone knows about child development and psychology, the assumption that everyone is capable of seeing the options, the assumption that we are all capable of rising above the past so easily.

 

I'm not trying to justify, just asking for patience, understanding, and education for those who do not have the same understanding that you have. Old habits and traditions take time to change. More people need to learn what works.

 

Peace.

[Peela]

Loving parents spank and don't spank. Crazy, neurotic parents spank and don't spank. I have seen some terrible parenting from both camps.

Spanking is not the be all and end all definition of good and bad parenting. Kids are amazingly resilient.

 

I do think we live in different times to the past and in order to move to a more human society, we can learn from others (and our grandparents usually only had other spankers to learn from...not people who had found another way. Also, abuse was pretty common- my dh was abused daily simply because spanking was considered normal and good). I am admiring that in places like Sweden, I have heard, they just don't spank.

 

However, I have spanked and I think my kids have survived ok, with deep sensitivity intact. Truthfully I would *ideally* have had the resources, the role models, the teachers, and the patience, to have found other ways to discipline, to guide, and to handle my own overwhelm at times, but I did the best I could at the time.

[4wildberrys]

:iagree: I used spanking when necessary, and within reason. My kids are happy, well-adjusted, and a whole heck of a lot better behaved than most of their peers who spent lots of time in time-out, lol! They know and understand rules and boundaries, and are respectful to others because they have been disciplined and trained. And yes, sometimes that meant they got spankings.

 

It's ridiculous to say that those who sometimes use spanking in their discipline are either abusers, ignorant, or suffer from psychological dysfunction.

:iagree::iagree: My brothers and I were spanked---and are healthy functioning adults. Our kids were spanked when needed----and are not scarred whatsoever. They see that kids who aren't spanked or otherwise disciplined properly are awful brats to be around. That there is even a debate about 'spanking' is ridiculous. It is not beating or abuse when used properly.

[Onceuponatime]

When you know better, you do better. Parents of past generations did what their parents did. But what if you could could get the same results and never had to strike your child? We did not spank. I never raised a hand to either of my children, ever. We had gentle, firm discipline in the form of consequences and boundaries. No spanking does not = no discipline; there is such a thing as discipline without physical punishment. That said, do I think people who spank are abusers? No. But I do think there is a better way.

 

Parents of this generation also do what their parents did. People need to be taught alternatives. Not everyone knows of other ways. If there is a better way, gently teach someone else. Please.

[Onceuponatime]

Loving parents spank and don't spank. Crazy, neurotic parents spank and don't spank. I have seen some terrible parenting from both camps.

Spanking is not the be all and end all definition of good and bad parenting. Kids are amazingly resilient.

 

I do think we live in different times to the past and in order to move to a more human society, we can learn from others (and our grandparents usually only had other spankers to learn from...not people who had found another way. Also, abuse was pretty common- my dh was abused daily simply because spanking was considered normal and good). I am admiring that in places like Sweden, I have heard, they just don't spank.

 

However, I have spanked and I think my kids have survived ok, with deep sensitivity intact. Truthfully I would *ideally* have had the resources, the role models, the teachers, and the patience, to have found other ways to discipline, to guide, and to handle my own overwhelm at times, but I did the best I could at the time.

 

Thank you. :001_smile:

[Momof3littles]

This is what I am talking about, the general assumption that everyone knows about child development and psychology, the assumption that everyone is capable of seeing the options, the assumption that we are all capable of rising above the past so easily.

 

I'm not trying to justify, just asking for patience, understanding, and education for those who do not have the same understanding that you have. Old habits and traditions take time to change. More people need to learn what works.

 

Peace.

Oh, I agree that not everyone knows there are options. On the flip side, I personally have seen many people assume that not spanking=not disciplining your child. I have witnessed parents who are permissive and do spank (Johnny, don't do that. Johnny, stop that. Johnny, if I have to say it one more time. Johnny, do not do that. And then they spank). I have witnessed punitive parents who do not spank.

 

In my mind, it goes back to the difference between authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive parenting. I strive for authoritative. That doesn't mean my kids don't have rules and boundaries, and that we don't have expectations as a family, or that we don't discipline/teach. I don't strive for authoritarian or permissive parenting.

 

eta: I have said to my parents many times that I think it would be lovely if more child psychology was taught in schools. Most people interact w/ children in some way or go on to have children of their own. I've personally witnessed many college educated folks who really don't have a good understanding of typical child development. I think understanding the normal course of development, and the typical challenges that arise at each age, would really help. Many things need to be taught/outgrown no matter what discipline strategy one employs. My other concern w/ punitive discipline is that it teaches kids to avoid behaving a certain way in response to an external authority. When you remove that authority (child knows no adult is around, etc) there have been studies showing the kids will often engage in the undesirable behavior. They know no one is around to punish or "catch" them. I'm oversimplifying my explanation but I think it is important to help a child develop those qualities from an intrinsic desire vs. fear of an extrinsic force coming down on them.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Momof3littles

[Firefly]

Parents of this generation also do what their parents did. People need to be taught alternatives. Not everyone knows of other ways. If there is a better way, gently teach someone else. Please.

 

I do (I hope) by example. I also hope my post didn't come across harsh, as it was not my intent. I was spanked as a child; my parents were very loving and I know they were doing the best they could. I think I turned out okay. ;)

[zenjenn]

But I do think there is a better way.

 

Often there is a better way. But not always.

 

I am not generally a spanker, though I never thought of it as universally wrong either. And I never spanked my oldest.

 

I have spanked my youngest on a handful of occasions. She is the most stubborn, willful, boundaries-testing child I have ever met. She didn't care about time-outs. She didn't care about the confiscation of her toys. She really, truly, didn't.

 

Sometimes, when she'd do something wrong, as young as age 3, she'd independently bring me all her favorite toys and dump them at my feet, look at me defiantly, and then go back to doing whatever she was doing wrong. I kid you not. Sometimes, I'd put her in time-out, and when the time-limit was up, she'd stay there, a defiant glare, refusing to do ANYTHING for HOURS. HOURS, as if proving to me she didn't care about time-outs, and she had no problem with being in time out for jolly well as long as I wanted. No wait, LONGER. It was her big "F you, mom, and F your consequences!"

 

Positive reinforcement? HA! She didn't connect positive reinforcement with BOO at the ages between 3 and 5. It was like "Thanks mom for the sticker. SUCKER!"

 

I had to withdraw her from a Montessori preschool that I loved into a more traditional structured pre-school because the Montessori respect of her freedom of choice as a child resulted in her sitting defiantly in the middle of the carpet all. day. long. The gentle directed-learning that worked so well for my oldest was a nightmare for my youngest who effectively said "I'm not being gently directed to do anything, you hippie freaks!"

 

So one day, when she refused to do what I asked, I told her if she didn't do what she was told, I'd spank her. She looked me square in the eye, got all up in my face, and STARED at me as if to say "I'm calling your bluff."

 

"Oh crap," I thought, "I guess I gotta follow through on this one."

 

And I did.

 

And it worked. After crying for a minute, she got her little tush in gear and did as I asked, no problem.

 

Of course, SOME kids continue to act defiantly after being spanked, so for them, spanking is not the consequence one should use. You have to find every child's currency, but it is vital to find what communicates meaningful consequence to the child.

 

She's 6 now, I haven't spanked her in over a year. It is no longer necessary. She now cares about her Nintendo DS and her computer time, and for whatever reason she now emotionally responds to praise and verbal disapproval. She just didn't, before. And I do think spanking her between 3-5 on occasion did help to establish my authority as a parent over a stubborn child who constantly challenged that.

 

Oh and she is still incredibly stubborn and willful. I respect that about her and it will serve her well in many areas. And it remains appropriate to channel that character trait into something that is constructive rather than self-destructive and antagonistic to everyone around her. Now I can help her channel that without spanking, but when she was younger, spanking is the only thing I found that worked.

Edited August 19, 2011 by zenjenn

[BarbecueMom]

This is what I am talking about, the general assumption that everyone knows about child development and psychology, the assumption that everyone is capable of seeing the options, the assumption that we are all capable of rising above the past so easily.

 

I'm not trying to justify, just asking for patience, understanding, and education for those who do not have the same understanding that you have. Old habits and traditions take time to change. More people need to learn what works.

 

Peace.

 

This. Not everyone is a natural parent, and I'm so tired of the condensation and judgment heaped at parents who would love to sit down and read a parenting book without being needed for something or falling asleep. It's not even about spanking. It's about wagging a finger and saying, "Well I never..." when a person needs some helpful advice and a hug. It's about using the phrase, "It takes a village..." and using that and experience to criticize rather than step in and give a helping hand. The Pearls have an audience because young mothers and fathers are confused about all the conflicting advice and have a hole to fill, a hole that probably didn't exist when everyone grew up around young children.

 

There are lots of "common sense" things about little kids that I just didn't know and still don't that leave me incredibly frustrated. Like the potty training thread, "Set a time for 20 minutes and have them sit for 5 minutes.". Followed by the responses that of course 1 year olds can potty train and Americans are odd for not doing so. I tried it. My choices were potty train and duct tape him to the chair, or relax, let him stay in a diaper until 3, and not get arrested for duct taping my child to a plastic frog. Oh but if he was "first time obedient..." This is why people gravitate toward advice to smack toddlers, because no one else seems to have *helpful* advice. Or if they do, it's in a 200-page book that I won't have time to read until the kids are in college.

 

Sorry, I have a stomach virus and it's making me more cranky than usual. I'll probably regret writing this, but it's keeping my mind off nausea.

[swellmomma]

I agree with you OP, but I think that no matter what form of discipline you use, spanking or not spanking you get judged here. If you chose to discipline in anyway you are the bad guy and the issues are apparently deeper than just the kids needing to be corrected. If you spank you are an abuser, if you don't spank you are lax, if you find other ways to discipline you are doing it wrong by their standards. You can't win around here so there is no point in trying to get everyone to have patience with each other on this topic because it just isn't going to happen.

[Firefly]

She is the most stubborn, willful, boundaries-testing child I have ever met. She didn't care about time-outs. She didn't care about the confiscation of her toys. She really, truly, didn't.

 

Sometimes, when she'd do something wrong, as young as age 3, she'd independently bring me all her favorite toys and dump them at my feet, look at me defiantly, and then go back to doing whatever she was doing wrong. I kid you not. Sometimes, I'd put her in time-out, and when the time-limit was up, she'd stay there, a defiant glare, refusing to do ANYTHING for HOURS. HOURS, as if proving to me she didn't care about time-outs, and she had no problem with being in time out for jolly well as long as I wanted. No wait, LONGER. It was her big "F you, mom, and F your consequences!"

 

This made me smile, because you could be describing my DD! This is a child that simply had no currency. It reminded me too of how when she was around 2, if I would ask her to do something, she would look at me imperiously and say, "No. I not." :lol:

[swellmomma]

She looked me square in the eye, got all up in my face, and STARED at me as if to say "I'm calling your bluff."

 

"Oh crap," I thought, "I guess I gotta follow through on this one."

 

And I did.

 

And it worked. After crying for a minute, she got her little tush in gear and did as I asked, no problem.

 

 

 

THis is the case no matter what discipline/punishment you chose. You have to follow through with what you say. Just went through this last night. Complete with the attitude coming from the kid trying to call your bluff and I wasn't spanking.

[Onceuponatime]

I agree with you OP, but I think that no matter what form of discipline you use, spanking or not spanking you get judged here. If you chose to discipline in anyway you are the bad guy and the issues are apparently deeper than just the kids needing to be corrected. If you spank you are an abuser, if you don't spank you are lax, if you find other ways to discipline you are doing it wrong by their standards. You can't win around here so there is no point in trying to get everyone to have patience with each other on this topic because it just isn't going to happen.

 

I thought it was worth a try. :001_smile:

[Joanne]

The presence or absence of spanking as a parenting tool says very little about the quality of parenting. "Spanking" covers a wide range of understanding. There are parents who spank as "training" (ala Pearls) and parents who reserve spanking for rare, specific situations. They are not the same thing, and can not compared in a valid manner.

 

I think the woodshed experiences of Laura Ingalls were excessive, and unnecessary. That said, clearly Ma used redirection in the early years and baby Carrie (?) was not subjected to a scripted program of thumps, swats, and physical reminders. She was expected to be a baby and toddler, and she was handled with get off your butt parenting.

 

The *impulse* to spank for safety issues is understandable. But I find the theory flawed. If children are young enough to run into the street or play with outlets, they are too young to understand "enough" to keep themselves safe even after a spanking. Kids that age (and if they are runners) need to be supervised. It's not like you can spank a 2 year old, set them at the end of a driveway, and walk away. Children outgrow running into the road (impulse control issue combined with an understanding of big picture realities) when they are MATURE enough. Spanking does not create maturity.

 

Yes, spanking is very cultural. Research shows in the US, somewhere in the high 90's percent of children are spanked. I can tell you this, it's 100% of kids where I counsel (for at risk youth). So, all the stupid Facebook reposts, and emails about how "before spanking was not used" are bunk.

 

There are great parents who spank; and lousy ones who don't.

 

In conclusion, Let's Not Talk About Spanking.

[Haiku]

I think spanking is a straw man in a parenting discussion.

 

I know spanked kids who are delightful and spanked kids who are awful to be around. I know not-spanked kids who are delightful and not-spanked kids who are awful to be around.

 

My belief is that how kids turn out has more to do with the interplay of their personalities with their parents' personalities, and the types of things that occurred to stress the family as the child grows up, than it does with whether they were ever spanked. If parents are reasonably consistent, stable, and loving, chances are their kids will turn out fine whether they were spanked or not.

 

Spanking does not automatically create well-behaved kids, nor does it automatically create bitter, resentful kids. I think spanking is a far less powerful issue than people make it out to be.

 

Tara

[SailorMom]

Mine are too old to spank now and have absolutely no need anyway, but I'll freely admit to being a spanker in the past when it has been needed and I'd continue to do so in the future if I had any more kids. I honestly don't care what others think. It's not abuse. There's nothing at all mentally that I need to get over. I simply disagree with the current fad. To each our own. ;)

 

(Like you, I'm not talking about the type of spanking that is abuse.)

 

:iagree:

We spanked. It was not our "first line" of discipline (we used time outs), and was reserved for what I thought were dangerous offenses (i.e. not listening and running into a street, somehow harming another child, etc). We stopped altogether sometime around age 7 because it just wasn't necesarry. We never spanked in anger and it was a pretty rare occurence.... we also never left a mark/hand print.

I think there is a huge difference between what the Pearls advocate and what most parents do. To lump them altogether is ridiculous.

Also - fyi - the military family support groups (that I am aware of) consider yelling at your children abuse. They also consider yelling and "raising voices" during arguments as spousal abuse.

So - I think we all need a reality check sometimes.

[Onceuponatime]

The presence or absence of spanking as a parenting tool says very little about the quality of parenting. "Spanking" covers a wide range of understanding. There are parents who spank as "training" (ala Pearls) and parents who reserve spanking for rare, specific situations. They are not the same thing, and can not compared in a valid manner.

 

I think the woodshed experiences of Laura Ingalls were excessive, and unnecessary. That said, clearly Ma used redirection in the early years and baby Carrie (?) was not subjected to a scripted program of thumps, swats, and physical reminders. She was expected to be a baby and toddler, and she was handled with get off your butt parenting.

 

The *impulse* to spank for safety issues is understandable. But I find the theory flawed. If children are young enough to run into the street or play with outlets, they are too young to understand "enough" to keep themselves safe even after a spanking. Kids that age (and if they are runners) need to be supervised. It's not like you can spank a 2 year old, set them at the end of a driveway, and walk away. Children outgrow running into the road (impulse control issue combined with an understanding of big picture realities) when they are MATURE enough. Spanking does not create maturity.

 

Yes, spanking is very cultural. Research shows in the US, somewhere in the high 90's percent of children are spanked. I can tell you this, it's 100% of kids where I counsel (for at risk youth). So, all the stupid Facebook reposts, and emails about how "before spanking was not used" are bunk.

 

There are great parents who spank; and lousy ones who don't.

 

In conclusion, Let's Not Talk About Spanking.

 

Thank you. :001_smile:

[SailorMom]

When my babies were nursing and they bit me I pulled them in towards me to cut off the air to their nose. Babies have very good survival instincts. They let go and it enourages them not to bite. It got the job done without smacking or thumping a baby.

 

I am not 100% anti-spanking. I am anti-spanking babies. I am against hitting kids with a switch until they cannot breathe. I have no patience, tolerance or understanding of that.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think spaking is appropriate or even effective at such a young age. What the Pearls advocated made me ill. Really - until about 2 they won't understand it.....

[SailorMom]

If my toddler dashes out into the road he WILL get smacked on the rump. Some things need a firmer understanding in my house. Situations that can kill you are one of them. If he climbs on the counter I pull him off and will Super Nanny him with a 30 minute round of that if needed, but will not swat him. I reserve the right to swat in extreme circumstances. Is it abuse? No, obviously not. I appreciate you asking for me to have patience and look for real options but I find it offensive. I am a deist and do not ask for you to examine your religious beliefs so that you may take on my beliefs. These threads never end well so I am at a lose as to why start one.

 

:iagree:

I'm a diest as well - I decided on discipline based on a rational examination of the facts. I'm not saying that's the only way to decide, but it was our way - religion was not involved.

Edited August 19, 2011 by SailorMom

[SailorMom]

This. Not everyone is a natural parent, and I'm so tired of the condensation and judgment heaped at parents who would love to sit down and read a parenting book without being needed for something or falling asleep. It's not even about spanking. It's about wagging a finger and saying, "Well I never..." when a person needs some helpful advice and a hug. It's about using the phrase, "It takes a village..." and using that and experience to criticize rather than step in and give a helping hand. The Pearls have an audience because young mothers and fathers are confused about all the conflicting advice and have a hole to fill, a hole that probably didn't exist when everyone grew up around young children.

 

There are lots of "common sense" things about little kids that I just didn't know and still don't that leave me incredibly frustrated. Like the potty training thread, "Set a time for 20 minutes and have them sit for 5 minutes.". Followed by the responses that of course 1 year olds can potty train and Americans are odd for not doing so. I tried it. My choices were potty train and duct tape him to the chair, or relax, let him stay in a diaper until 3, and not get arrested for duct taping my child to a plastic frog. Oh but if he was "first time obedient..." This is why people gravitate toward advice to smack toddlers, because no one else seems to have *helpful* advice. Or if they do, it's in a 200-page book that I won't have time to read until the kids are in college.

 

Sorry, I have a stomach virus and it's making me more cranky than usual. I'll probably regret writing this, but it's keeping my mind off nausea.

 

I read every parenting book I could get my hands on. Most people I know IRL come to me for parenting advice, and I understood/understand my kids very well. I chose to spank because I don't think the current discipline trneds/fads/strategies/whatever you want to call them are working very well. My kids are complimented all the time on their behavior.

I don't think spanking is the right way or the best way for every kid, but I don't think a blanket ban on it is good. My boys are very independent and strong willed, and the occasional spanking worked very well.

Edited August 19, 2011 by SailorMom

[twoforjoy]

I think you need to understand that much of the pushback online is because in most settings, spanking is still the norm. 90% of parents report spanking their kids. It is what most parents use for discipline, especially with little kids.

 

So, people who don't spank, or don't want to spank, are under enormous pressure in nearly every setting to do so, especially if they have difficult children. I know that I've had to either justify why I don't spank or just keep quiet while parents talk about spanking as if it's just a given that everybody does it or must do it, more times than I can count. And I don't travel in very conservative circles. Even among the middle-of-the-road parents I know, it's still very much the norm and expectation.

 

So if there's pushback, that's probably why. It's pretty freeing to come online and meet people who don't spank, when it's so difficult to find people who don't in real life in most places (again, given that 90% or so of parents spank). And that probably does lead to some overly intense pushback, since people maybe feel free to say things they can't say in real life.

 

That said, I wouldn't judge somebody for spanking. I don't spank, at this point, more for me than for my kids. I don't like what spanking does to me. It goes against deeply held convictions of mine. It makes me feel like somebody I don't want to be. For me, I think it hurts my relationship with my kids because of what it does to me. But I can't know what happens in anybody else's family and as long as they love their kids and aren't causing them physical or emotional injury, then it's just not my business how they discipline and not something for me to judge.

Edited August 19, 2011 by twoforjoy

[delaney]

Okay see I read this as you asking for those who spank needing to have patience asked on their behalf, meanng, you wanted people who have spanked to have more patience. I am assuming now that you meant for patience to be had WITH people who have spanked so there is less judgement. :tongue_smilie:See how it got all befuddled??

[jewellsmommy]

I think spanking is a straw man in a parenting discussion.

 

I know spanked kids who are delightful and spanked kids who are awful to be around. I know not-spanked kids who are delightful and not-spanked kids who are awful to be around.

 

My belief is that how kids turn out has more to do with the interplay of their personalities with their parents' personalities, and the types of things that occurred to stress the family as the child grows up, than it does with whether they were ever spanked. If parents are reasonably consistent, stable, and loving, chances are their kids will turn out fine whether they were spanked or not.

 

Spanking does not automatically create well-behaved kids, nor does it automatically create bitter, resentful kids. I think spanking is a far less powerful issue than people make it out to be.

 

Tara

 

 

:iagree: very much.

[LibraryLover]

That's so true. Spanking gets a ton of support, but if you don't spank, the assumption is your kids are horrors. Most believe you can't raise decent children without spanking, and that's simply not true. I just can't get behind hitting kids, but I can get behind supporting parents who would rather not and want other ideas.

 

People like the Pearls divide parents...it's ok to hit, but not to use PVC piping to hit? How is this helpful?

 

I agree with Joanne that a spanking won't teach a toddler not to run in the road...maturity and supervision are the tickets. That takes time and energy and spanking seems less time intensive, but not much with toddlers isn't time intensive. It would be nice to skip that stage with some kids. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I think you need to understand that much of the pushback online is because in most settings, spanking is still the norm. 90% of parents report spanking their kids. It is what most parents use for discipline, especially with little kids.

 

So, people who don't spank, or don't want to spank, are under enormous pressure in nearly every setting to do so, especially if they have difficult children. I know that I've had to either justify why I don't spank or just keep quiet while parents talk about spanking as if it's just a given that everybody does it or must do it, more times than I can count. And I don't travel in very conservative circles. Even among the middle-of-the-road parents I know, it's still very much the norm and expectation.

 

So if there's pushback, that's probably why. It's pretty freeing to come online and meet people who don't spank, when it's so difficult to find people who don't in real life in most places (again, given that 90% or so of parents spank). And that probably does lead to some overly intense pushback, since people maybe feel free to say things they can't say in real life.

 

That said, I wouldn't judge somebody for spanking. I don't spank, at this point, more for me than for my kids. I don't like what spanking does to me. It goes against deeply held convictions of mine. It makes me feel like somebody I don't want to be. For me, I think it hurts my relationship with my kids because of what it does to me. But I can't know what happens in anybody else's family and as long as they love their kids and aren't causing them physical or emotional injury, then it's just not my business how they discipline and not something for me to judge.

Edited August 19, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Harriet Vane]

I think spanking is a straw man in a parenting discussion.

 

I know spanked kids who are delightful and spanked kids who are awful to be around. I know not-spanked kids who are delightful and not-spanked kids who are awful to be around.

 

My belief is that how kids turn out has more to do with the interplay of their personalities with their parents' personalities, and the types of things that occurred to stress the family as the child grows up, than it does with whether they were ever spanked. If parents are reasonably consistent, stable, and loving, chances are their kids will turn out fine whether they were spanked or not.

 

Spanking does not automatically create well-behaved kids, nor does it automatically create bitter, resentful kids. I think spanking is a far less powerful issue than people make it out to be.

 

Tara

 

:iagree: Posts like this are why I luvya!!!! Well said.

[justamouse]

I used spanking when necessary, and within reason. My kids are happy, well-adjusted, and a whole heck of a lot better behaved than most of their peers who spent lots of time in time-out, lol! They know and understand rules and boundaries, and are respectful to others because they have been disciplined and trained. And yes, sometimes that meant they got spankings.

 

And parents who don't spank who have well behaved kids? They exist, you know. spanking does not automatically equal a well adjusted child. It's not either or.

 

When you know better, you do better. Parents of past generations did what their parents did. But what if you could could get the same results and never had to strike your child? We did not spank. I never raised a hand to either of my children, ever. We had gentle, firm discipline in the form of consequences and boundaries. No spanking does not = no discipline; there is such a thing as discipline without physical punishment. That said, do I think people who spank are abusers? No. But I do think there is a better way.

 

:iagree:

 

:iagree::iagree: My brothers and I were spanked---and are healthy functioning adults. Our kids were spanked when needed----and are not scarred whatsoever. They see that kids who aren't spanked or otherwise disciplined properly are awful brats to be around. That there is even a debate about 'spanking' is ridiculous. It is not beating or abuse when used properly.

 

Again, it's not an either or. I don't spank. My kids are amazing. They are NOT awful brats to be around.

 

 

The presence or absence of spanking as a parenting tool says very little about the quality of parenting. "Spanking" covers a wide range of understanding. There are parents who spank as "training" (ala Pearls) and parents who reserve spanking for rare, specific situations. They are not the same thing, and can not compared in a valid manner.

 

I think the woodshed experiences of Laura Ingalls were excessive, and unnecessary. That said, clearly Ma used redirection in the early years and baby Carrie (?) was not subjected to a scripted program of thumps, swats, and physical reminders. She was expected to be a baby and toddler, and she was handled with get off your butt parenting.

 

The *impulse* to spank for safety issues is understandable. But I find the theory flawed. If children are young enough to run into the street or play with outlets, they are too young to understand "enough" to keep themselves safe even after a spanking. Kids that age (and if they are runners) need to be supervised. It's not like you can spank a 2 year old, set them at the end of a driveway, and walk away. Children outgrow running into the road (impulse control issue combined with an understanding of big picture realities) when they are MATURE enough. Spanking does not create maturity.

 

Yes, spanking is very cultural. Research shows in the US, somewhere in the high 90's percent of children are spanked. I can tell you this, it's 100% of kids where I counsel (for at risk youth). So, all the stupid Facebook reposts, and emails about how "before spanking was not used" are bunk.

 

There are great parents who spank; and lousy ones who don't.

 

In conclusion, Let's Not Talk About Spanking.

 

Thank you.

[Mrs Mungo]

Ultimately, I feel like people who give a rare tap on the butt are taking offense at people being up in arms due to something totally different. It's as if we were up in arms over someone poisoning their child by giving them an overdose of tylenol and anyone who ever gave their child tylenol is feeling a need to defend their actions.

[justamouse]

Ultimately, I feel like people who give a rare tap on the butt are taking offense at people being up in arms due to something totally different. It's as if we were up in arms over someone poisoning their child by giving them an overdose of tylenol and anyone who ever gave their child tylenol is feeling a need to defend their actions.

:iagree:

[SailorMom]

I think it is interresting that one of the above posts mentions that the majority of parents she knows spank. Most of the people I know don't - and always raised eyebrows at me when I said that I had. In fact - I've even had someone say, "Oh - but you're such an intelligent person..."

:lol:

[Joanne]

I think it is interresting that one of the above posts mentions that the majority of parents she knows spank. Most of the people I know don't - and always raised eyebrows at me when I said that I had. In fact - I've even had someone say, "Oh - but you're such an intelligent person..."

:lol:

 

Where do you live? Pacific Northwest? California?

[Jen500]

Ultimately, I feel like people who give a rare tap on the butt are taking offense at people being up in arms due to something totally different. It's as if we were up in arms over someone poisoning their child by giving them an overdose of tylenol and anyone who ever gave their child tylenol is feeling a need to defend their actions.

 

:iagree:

 

And I don't know any of you IRL. How do I know what kind of parent someone else is? (I don't) When one posts in support of the Pearls...and then writes of thumping their baby...and writes of being hit as a child by laughing parents...I am left thinking this is a cycle of abuse.

[LibraryLover]

Ultimately, I feel like people who give a rare tap on the butt are taking offense at people being up in arms due to something totally different. It's as if we were up in arms over someone poisoning their child by giving them an overdose of tylenol and anyone who ever gave their child tylenol is feeling a need to defend their actions.

 

 

Even as a non-spanker, I don't think a parent who has once or twice hit in frustration, or even one who believed it is useful in some rare situations (running into the street) is an abuser. I don't like to think about hitting children being a regular tool of discipline however, and if a parent would like to figure how to not hit again, I would want to listen and help them through that. I would rather support that than a blanket statement of "It's sometimes OK to hit your child." I'd rather start from the statement of "Hitting isn't the best discipline tool."

 

No spanking doesn't equal no discipline. I am not sure why so many people think it does.

[SailorMom]

Well - I'm from CA - and none of the friends I know out there spank. My in-laws spanked, and my parents spanked me - but CA is notorious for being anti-spanking now.

 

I live near Pensacola, FL. Most of the people here that I know (and have talked to about it) don't spank as well.... unless they just aren't admitting to it:D

[simka2]

When my babies were nursing and they bit me I pulled them in towards me to cut off the air to their nose. Babies have very good survival instincts. They let go and it enourages them not to bite. It got the job done without smacking or thumping a baby.

 

I am not 100% anti-spanking. I am anti-spanking babies. I am against hitting kids with a switch until they cannot breathe. I have no patience, tolerance or understanding of that.

 

:iagree:I can agree that a certain type of spanking can be granted patience and understanding.

 

What the authors in the previous threads were advocating deserves the complete opposite. Especially, from the Christian community.

[Onceuponatime]

Okay see I read this as you asking for those who spank needing to have patience asked on their behalf, meanng, you wanted people who have spanked to have more patience. I am assuming now that you meant for patience to be had WITH people who have spanked so there is less judgement. :tongue_smilie:See how it got all befuddled??

 

I'm glad it's straightened out now. :001_smile:

[Joanne]

No spanking doesn't equal no discipline. I am not sure why so many people think it does.

 

:iagree:

 

I'd also offer that spanking does not = discipline. Spanking is punishment, and may or may not qualify as a part of discipline.

[Slartibartfast]

Hitting babies is not ok, hitting kids with a belt is not ok. I will not be patient or tolerant with that.

 

The Pearls have *nothing* to do with your average parent who occasionally uses spanking as a tool. I don't spank but I am not going to debate about it.

[Soror]

I don't spank. I know nobody in real life who does not, all my friends do to some degree. I don't think they are bad parents because of that. I've not personally seen anything like the Pearls. The argument that we just need to return to the 'good ol days' and kids misbehave because they aren't spanked is really tiresome. I worked with juvenile deliquents and not one of them came from permissive, non-spanking parents, there are many factors in how kids turn out. I have one friend who spanks who is infinitely gentler than me, it is her personality, she never even nears raising a voice or cross words. I don't spank because I cannot wrap my head around using hitting, in any form, as teaching. When I get together with my friends my kids are just as well-behaved, although happy and excited at times(my one friend did tell me she thought my kids were happier- that was not my observation). We all have to discipline for the same things. My kids have more responsibility around the house by far and cheerfully help out. I don't think that is a sole result of spanking or non-spanking though, but expectations and such.