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I suspect some of this is what researchers call "rater's bias". It's when you know something of the persons involved and you filter evaluations through it.

 

Someone ignorant of or hostile to homeschooling, for example, is more likely to spot awkward social behavior in homeschoolers and label it as having been created my homeschooling/lack of socialization.

 

A non-spanker is more likely to see obedient behavior in children as "robotic, because the child is scared."

 

A parent who believes in spanking is more likely see see childish behavior and evaluate it as "out of control".

 

If it IS permissiveness, it is not lack of spanking that is the problem; it is lack of discipline.

 

I like what you've said here. I'm probably going to ponder it all weekend. Totally off topic, but since my oldest is entering Jr High, the judgmental bias against homeschooling has come up again, but worse than with Kindergarten. Maybe remembering this will help ME be less judgmental towards those that pass judgement on me.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

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One of mine responds best to "if you do that again I will smack your hand" where the other responds to "you will need to go to time out / to your room". If I try time out or other alternatives with one, the issue will escalate and will last for hours / even recommence the next day, whereas a sharp slap on the hand gets the message across and it's over. As they get older different things work for them so I'm hoping to find another 'currency' at some point. My father smacked us as children, but my mother engaged in ongoing verbal and emotional bullying - I have a much better relationship with him than I do with her.

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And yet I can't comprehend why one would want to spank when both parties are calm, other than to show one's dominance and control. My goal is to parent from love and kindenss, not from dominance and control. I think it is possible to set boundaries, without resorting to violence.

:iagree:

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Referring to my earlier post (which you quoted), I admit that I was feeling angry when I spanked. The key factor was that I was in control of my responses, and did not simply lash out violently. I never have heard of anyone spanking when they were NOT angry. That would be bizarre.

 

At any rate, the occurrences were few and far between. Perhaps I would have fared better had I said nothing -- (?)

 

I was totally shocked to hear that people spanked when they weren't angry.
Edited by Orthodox6
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I came across this yesterday while I was researching parenting books. It seems appropriate for the ongoing dialogue we have been having here. It looks like times are changing, and honestly, I would be thrilled if spanking were illegal.

 

 

I know most of you would be horrified if that were to happen. (I don't think it will anytime soon.)

 

 

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-06-23/news/29710674_1_spanked-harm-smoking

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And in decades past, people didn't even believe babies felt pain. Circumcisions and more intense surgeries were performed on babies who were thought to not even feel pain :(

 

I think the argument that it has been going on for hundreds of years really glosses over the amount we've learned about child development and psychology.

 

I honestly don't understand how smacking a toddler on the rump will prevent them from running the next time. Psychologically, young toddlers have poor impulse control. Why not just keep them from running, period? We've never swatted a child for trying to take off. If they attempt to run away or I feel they might, they go directly into the stroller, the sling, hold my hand, or be carried. I see absolutely no point in punishing afterward. As my kids have matured it hasn't been a problem. I wouldn't want to rely on the "lesson" taught from previous spankings for running into the street..IMO, why not prevent in the first place? If I'm not preventing, I'm not doing my job as a parent, and I would be angry with myself if my child took off. Ditto any other dangerous situation that people advocate spanking for. I'd rather use the twist style outlet covers than have to swat a toddler attempting to stick a fork in there.

I agree with you. I don't hit my children. If my children get to the point where I would be tempted, I just chill and think about developmental reasons for their behavior or what I have been doing wrong as a parent to allow that sort of behavior. I am not permissive at all. In fact, I get glowing commendations for my childrens' behavior all of the time. I just have expectations and I have nurtured trust and love with my children. My children listen the first time when I tell them 95% of the time. My dh is much more authoritative and they only listen to him 10% of the time. I was never spanked as a child and I would have lost all love and trust if I was ever touched in an aggressive manner. My children have ownership of their body and if it was a stranger hitting my children, I would be irate, so that doesn't mean I can have double standards and allow myself to hit them.

 

And the whole "in years past" thing is irrelevant. They did a lot of crazy stuff in the past-used urine for toothpaste, had slaves, infanticide, etc. That is part of a past culture and NOT my culture. My grandmother doesn't hit, and neither did her mother. Somehow we all lived past childhood (and I have a HUGE family). :lol:

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I suspect some of this is what researchers call "rater's bias". It's when you know something of the persons involved and you filter evaluations through it.

 

Someone ignorant of or hostile to homeschooling, for example, is more likely to spot awkward social behavior in homeschoolers and label it as having been created my homeschooling/lack of socialization.

 

A non-spanker is more likely to see obedient behavior in children as "robotic, because the child is scared."

 

A parent who believes in spanking is more likely see see childish behavior and evaluate it as "out of control".

 

If it IS permissiveness, it is not lack of spanking that is the problem; it is lack of discipline.

 

:iagree:

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Onceuponatime, I totally agree with your statement. I believe there is a BIG difference between spanking and beating. I spanked my oldest 2 dc. My middle son, in the same age bracket as the 2 older, spanking was VERY ineffective. I stopped using that as a form of discipline and found something else that would make him stop and think. For him at a very young age all I had to do was ground him from his friends.

 

I do believe that with parents who spank it is many times over used. I never used spanking as a first result. I would redirect or simply talk to the child about the infraction. If the actions continued the said child would be sent to him room and in private I would give him/her a couple of smacks on the bottom, hug him,pray with him and normally it was all over.

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:confused: With very few exceptions, I do not believe in "rotten kids". I work with the highest level of at risk kids from the CPS system and the juvenile court system, and I STILL don't believe in "just a rotten kid".

 

I don't feel the need to avoid judging parents.

 

:iagree: many of those children described as "rotten kids" may have something nuerological going on with them that needs to be addressed, and if so, will totally change the child ability to interact with others. I think calling them rotten is the equivalent of condeming a child for not running a race when their leg is broken in three places.

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:iagree:

 

My SIL spanks and is overly permissive. Ridiculously overpermissive. But at the slightest irritation, she smacks her daughter. It makes no sense.

I know of a family like this. The child is a brat and is rarely disciplined (seems they only spank) but when it does happen the spanking is over the top and uncalled for. The kid pushes and pushes and pushes and most of the time gets away with whatever it is he is trying to do.

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Research on spanking is clearly biased. Spanking works for some kids. Parents who say "spanking is not effective" may be right with respect to THEIR kids, but not mine. If spanking did not improve my children's life, I would not spank. But it does, and I do.

 

I am not ignorant. I would, however, say that everyone else on the planet is ignorant about what works with MY kids. As am I regarding YOUR kids.

 

Funny how homeschoolers, who supposedly embrace the theory that all kids are different and benefit from different approaches to teaching/learning, don't extend that belief to spanking.

 

And, I would say that in the long run, a spank on the bottom will cause less pain than, say, sitting for extended periods for "school," engaging in certain hands-on educational experiences, and even beling allowed to throw unchecked tantrums. Pain is part of life. Our kids feel pain when they teethe (both times), get their period, or have the flu. So please, don't ask me to feel guilty or inferior because a tiny part of the pain my children have felt has come from my palm. They know I am correcting them in love.

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If it is normal within the culture of the child (whether in the family, church, or society at large) to be spanked, and they are spanked and not abused, then I would argue there is no psychological harm.

.

 

There is research showing exactly this done in cultures outside (not just within) the US.

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Hmm, well, we have to inflict pain sometimes. When we give birth, when we wash scrapes, when we immunize, when we comb knots out of hair, and a hundred other times . . . it would be near impossible for a child to not feel pain inflicted by (or on the instruction of) a loved one.

 

I think for those of us who have been spanked (not abused) and remember it, we realize that a spank isn't really that painful nor is it really about pain. It's more about getting the child's attention. Yes, it's uncomfortable in more ways than one, but so are most forms of correction.

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Hmm, well, we have to inflict pain sometimes. When we give birth, when we wash scrapes, when we immunize, when we comb knots out of hair, and a hundred other times . . . it would be near impossible for a child to not feel pain inflicted by (or on the instruction of) a loved one.

 

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't equate gently cleaning a boo-boo/working on a snarl with a smack. With the former, you're trying NOT to hurt; with the latter, the intent is to cause hurt.

 

I think for those of us who have been spanked (not abused) and remember it, we realize that a spank isn't really that painful nor is it really about pain. It's more about getting the child's attention. Yes, it's uncomfortable in more ways than one, but so are most forms of correction.

 

Again, I love my parents and don't think they were monsters for spanking me. But I can't say they weren't painful! Mine were also "calm" spankers, so it wasn't so much to get our attention. It was, "because you did x, when Dad gets home he will spank you." I realize others DO spank as an attention getting thing, though.

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Guest submarines
Research on spanking is clearly biased. Spanking works for some kids. Parents who say "spanking is not effective" may be right with respect to THEIR kids, but not mine. If spanking did not improve my children's life, I would not spank. But it does, and I do.

 

 

How do you define 'works' with respect to spanking? (That a non-physical method would not have worked?)

 

What does it mean for spanking not to work?

 

How does it improve your children's life?

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Sunflowers: how spanking "works" for my kids.

 

First, let me say that I use many other forms of discipline, resorting to spanking only in certain circumstances. I do not spank often at all.

 

Spanking works for my kids in the sense that when all other reasonable methods fail to lead to behavior modification, spanking does - quickly and decisively. It is extremely rare that I would have to spank more than once for the same offense. Spanking therefore results in fewer incidents requiring any sort of discipline or unpleasantness. Meaning happier kids.

 

When I've tried go on spanking strikes and do my very best with other methods, my kids have ultimately spent more time being unhappy. They are looking for clear boundaries and are very uncomfortable upon not finding them.

 

You can say that it's because I haven't mastered time-out or whatever your favorite is, but I say that I don't have forever to figure discipline out. My kids are 4. One hasn't had a spanking in a long time, and I hope she is done with that forever. The other is not quite there yet, but I'm trying. Still, I'd rather give a spank than let a child spin further and further out of control. Watching kids scream or become violent as their "understanding" parents shrug their shoulders does not convince me that they are happier than my occasionally spanked kid.

 

Not saying any of this to insult non-spankers. I know some kids who are not spanked are also well-behaved and happy. Personally I attribute that at least partly to the kids' inborn personality. Even siblings often need different discipline approaches. For those few of you who have better results with ALL of your non-spanked kids, you are awesome, but not everyone can meet that standard in the little time we are given to bring up our little ones. Just like not all of us can win a spelling bee or cook a gourmet meal.

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Guest submarines
Sunflowers: how spanking "works" for my kids.

 

First, let me say that I use many other forms of discipline, resorting to spanking only in certain circumstances. I do not spank often at all.

 

Spanking works for my kids in the sense that when all other reasonable methods fail to lead to behavior modification, spanking does - quickly and decisively. It is extremely rare that I would have to spank more than once for the same offense. Spanking therefore results in fewer incidents requiring any sort of discipline or unpleasantness. Meaning happier kids.

 

When I've tried go on spanking strikes and do my very best with other methods, my kids have ultimately spent more time being unhappy. They are looking for clear boundaries and are very uncomfortable upon not finding them.

 

You can say that it's because I haven't mastered time-out or whatever your favorite is, but I say that I don't have forever to figure discipline out. My kids are 4. One hasn't had a spanking in a long time, and I hope she is done with that forever. The other is not quite there yet, but I'm trying. Still, I'd rather give a spank than let a child spin further and further out of control. Watching kids scream or become violent as their "understanding" parents shrug their shoulders does not convince me that they are happier than my occasionally spanked kid.

 

Not saying any of this to insult non-spankers. I know some kids who are not spanked are also well-behaved and happy. Personally I attribute that at least partly to the kids' inborn personality. Even siblings often need different discipline approaches. For those few of you who have better results with ALL of your non-spanked kids, you are awesome, but not everyone can meet that standard in the little time we are given to bring up our little ones. Just like not all of us can win a spelling bee or cook a gourmet meal.

 

Thank you for your explanation. :)

 

The bolded is what I've thought a lot about, without reaching a solid conclusion. I'm not sure that children who avoid "unpleasant" behaviour because of their fear of spanking, are happier. But this is just my gut feeling, and I could be wrong.

 

Since your kids are so young, what kind of behaviours were severe enough to warrant spanking? I can't imagine anything a child younger than 5 or 6 could do to be spanked, but I'm coming from a different perspective.

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Sunflowers, as a person who was spanked, I can say that the "fear" of spanking was not the reason for my good overall behavior. Rather, the clear understanding of boundaries was. There is a big difference. Knowing one's boundaries (and parents' boundaries) results in security, not fear. I think this is why my kids tend to get more relaxed and even more affectionate the day after a spanking.

 

If you have been brought up in a different culture, I can understand how this could seem strange to you.

 

As for "what kind of behaviors would justify spankings" - chances are no two parents will agree on that. I notice that in your signature, you have one nine-year-old daughter. Whether your daughter is an easy or difficult child by nature, I cannot know. But I can say that your dynamic would change if you had multiple children close in age, if one or more of them were boys, and so on. But since I'm pretty sure our realities are significantly different, I don't think we can be on the same wavelenght. So I'm just not going to go there.

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In defense of all the other AP, LLL, crunchy-earth-mommas who seem to getting a bad rap as permissive and non-disciplining. I do not know a single one who does not set, establish and enforce logical boundaries and consequences. Sometimes, those are natural consequences and might be what I think is being deemed permissive here. For example, when DS8 was little, he and another boy were playing on a bench. I told DS that it was dangerous and he needed to get off (he was about 2 at the time), as did the other mom. Her little boy did not immediately respond and was yanked off the bench and spanked. When she dragged her kid off the bench, DS fell off and thumped on the ground. He was not hurt, but just a little shocked. He came over to me, I explained that he fell because the bench was not meant for running on, and he went off to play, and never bothered with the bench again. Did I let him stay on the bench? Yes. Did he learn the natural consequence of running on a bench? Yes. Would I have allowed him to run on the edge of a steep drop? No.

 

See, even back when I was a spanker (20 years ago) it wouldn't have occurred to me to spank for something like that.

 

I've never met anyone who thought they were an abusive parent.

 

Very true.

 

Hi, I'm Carol. My kids are not spanked. They are well-disciplined and are reported by all who interact with them as delightful, obedient and well-behaved. I don't take too much credit for that, frankly. They just have pleasant personalities now that they are beyond the difficult toddler stages. Now you have met another person who doesn't spank but has very predictable boundaries and discipline.;)

 

I have spanked in the past, much as Peela describes, due to being at the end of my rope. These were not my finest parenting moments.

 

[snip]

As others have stated, spanking doesn't equal abuse or well-behaved kids. Not spanking does not equal permissiveness or ill-behaved kids.

 

As Joanne stated, when spanking is "off the table" as an option, parents choose other disciplinary techniques.

 

I am completely with Tara on this one - spanking is the "straw man".

 

:iagree:

 

Cold, premeditated spanking to me sounds as if the parent has emotionally unplugged themselves from the situation--which is even scarier that a parent getting mad and smacking a kid. Then they KNOW they let their emotion get the better of them-they lacked self control and smacked the kid.

 

This spank them while calm--scary. To hit a child while emotionally detached--will only strengthen the ability to spank with emotional detachment. NOT a safe place to be. That's how parents go too far.

 

Which is why the best thing to do it take it off the table completely. It's MUCH easier to learn more effective parenting skills than emotionally detach yourself from your child while inflicting pain on them.

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Guest submarines
Sunflowers, as a person who was spanked, I can say that the "fear" of spanking was not the reason for my good overall behavior. Rather, the clear understanding of boundaries was. There is a big difference. Knowing one's boundaries (and parents' boundaries) results in security, not fear. I think this is why my kids tend to get more relaxed and even more affectionate the day after a spanking.

 

If you have been brought up in a different culture, I can understand how this could seem strange to you.

 

As for "what kind of behaviors would justify spankings" - chances are no two parents will agree on that. I notice that in your signature, you have one nine-year-old daughter. Whether your daughter is an easy or difficult child by nature, I cannot know. But I can say that your dynamic would change if you had multiple children close in age, if one or more of them were boys, and so on. But since I'm pretty sure our realities are significantly different, I don't think we can be on the same wavelenght. So I'm just not going to go there.

 

I still can't understand why spanking would be the method of choice to establish boundaries. ETA: You imply that it is the easiest way, as it achieves the fastest results, but somehow I don't feel that the easiest is always the best when it applies to children.

 

As for being more affectionate after spanking, this, honestly, scares me. Children will try very hard to connect with their parents, and when a connection is broken, they attempt to restore it. They learn that parental love is conditional on being nice, and they try to be nice, and try to please. This is based on my personal experiences as a spanked child, and on my understanding of child psychology--I took 4 advanced courses when I was in university (among many other psychology courses).

 

I actually have 3 children, my 9 yo is the oldest. They are all very different, with the oldest the most challening, the middle easy going and mellow, and the little one somewhere in between. I have to edit my signature, but I keep forgetting. I joined this forum with specific questions about homeschooling my oldest. My other two are 5 and 3, and not ready for academic homeschooling just yet.

Edited by sunflowers
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I still can't understand why spanking would be the method of choice to establish boundaries.

No one asked, but to not understand why it's the method of choice is not the worst thing. Sometimes, I wish I didn't understand.

 

And I actually do agree with a lot of what Tara said about spanking being the straw man.

 

I agree. Most people I know who admit to spanking occasionally have done so out of anger, frustration and loss of control. I have no experience with the kind of calm/premeditated spanking several people are discussing here.

My only experience has been with the premeditated sort. My former pastor taught in premarital class lessons on how to do it calmly, "lovingly", and effectively while staying within legal bounds. "It's normal to have days when you feel like that's all you do", he said. I know that sounds bad to some (and it's one of many reasons we left, but I'm not saying the church was full of child abuse) but as someone else said:

 

I've never met anyone who thought they were an abusive parent.
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Sunflowers, your theories sound logical, but they are just theories. I too took lots of psychology courses and I am well aware of the bias in modern psychology against spanking. Psychology theories have been wrong plenty of times. Psychology attempts to simplify something that is more complex than the field cares to believe.

 

For instance, the idea that a spanked child feels a need to be "nice" in order to be loved. That assumes that the child is spanked every time he is not "nice." Maybe that is the case for some children, but it is not the case for mine nor was it the case for me. It also assumes that the child associates a spank on the butt with parental hate. I never felt hated as a result of a spanking. I did feel hated at the hormonal stage when my mom reminded me to wash the dishes. How illogical! But reality doesn't always fit within the structure of a logical discussion - especially when the logic is influenced by bias.

 

In short, no matter how many textbooks you've read or lectures you've sat through, you don't know enough about me and my kids to judge or to make dire predictions. Obviously I am not trying to convince you to spank your kids, nor are my kids likely to ever affect your enjoyment of life. So . . . .

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And by the way, Sunflowers, I have enough sense to know whether my kids' affection is real or faked as a result of fear. Give parents some credit. Do you think your child could "pretend" to feel affectionate without your knowing it? Or do you assume that because I occasionally spank, I must be a weaker specimen and incapable of such discrimination?

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I "tap" my kids, only with my hand (I have sensitive hands, and usually it hurts me more than them LOL) either on their bum, or a slight "slap" to their hand. They are always told what they did wrong, the tap is just to give attention to the matter. I don't count it as slapping/smacking, and the Pearls thoroughly disgust me. I only ever do ONE tap, I don't do mutiples. Its just to bring full attention to what I am saying.

 

My parents were big believers in "corporal punishment" and to me, they abused me.

 

One time I was scared (after watching ET) and had a nightmare, I was hiccuping from crying so much, all my mother did was drag me by my arm into the spare bedroom and proceeded to smack my bum REALLY HARD, until I stopped crying (which was at least 45 minutes later) all I really needed was a hug, and assurance that everything was alright, I'd had a nightmare after all, but nope, I was smacked for crying, and being upset.

 

My parents use to use Belts on me (I hate belts, its made me afraid of a clothing object for goodness sakes). They used wooden spoons (when a wooden spoon my mother used on me broke, this got her madder, and she proceeded to up the ante, and got a metal spoon and hit me with that instead. This was all stuff that was "recommended" belts, spoons were the norm, and it was always only ever done on them bum. It doesn't mean it didn't scar me, and IMO it was abuse.

 

:grouphug:

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Cold, premeditated spanking to me sounds as if the parent has emotionally unplugged themselves from the situation--which is even scarier that a parent getting mad and smacking a kid. Then they KNOW they let their emotion get the better of them-they lacked self control and smacked the kid.

 

This spank them while calm--scary. To hit a child while emotionally detached--will only strengthen the ability to spank with emotional detachment. NOT a safe place to be. That's how parents go too far.

 

Which is why the best thing to do it take it off the table completely. It's MUCH easier to learn more effective parenting skills than emotionally detach yourself from your child while inflicting pain on them.

 

:iagree: This is exactly what I think, too. The times I've (unproudly) spanked was when I had blown a fuse and smacked a (clothed) behind in a parental temper tantrum. While I don't think there's anything admirable about that, at least it's logical - I was very frustrated and I reacted wrongly. This - while again, nothing to be proud of - is not as scary to me as a parent methodically planning to spank the child calmly and then kissing/hugging them afterwards. This seems like greater potential to mess up the child's understanding of love and relationships than a momentary loss of rationality on the parent's part.

 

It seemed better to me to take it off the table completely. If you still think it's a tool in the back pocket, it's too easy to use that instead of think through a better way. AND - if you're giving yourself time to plan a spanking, couldn't you easily use that time to plan a better way?

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I keep reading about "calm spanking." I hope *all* of you are referencing the "go sit in your room for the next few hours, until your father gets home..." type, because otherwise this has me flummoxed.

 

When we discipline, we offer our children a choice. We issue a verbal warning (not from across the room, but face to face.) We are stern, but calm. We tell the child what is expected, and what the consequence will be.

 

If the consequence is spanking, and the child CHOOSES to ignore the warning, we follow through. Most often this is for lying, and if I'm making THAT the consequence I'm 99.9% certain the individual is lying to me... the conversation goes something like this:

 

Me - "LegoManiac, Did you sign up for ReelVids? I expect the truth, the consequence for lying is three swats." (We were already 99.9% sure that he had done this... we were giving him the opportunity to come clean and help us fix the mess quickly).

 

LegoManiac - "I don't know what that is."

 

Me - "LegoManiac, I know you are lying to me...let's go look at your computer...." And so it goes as we unravel the whole messy truth, (a process which becomes a bit more involved by going back through histories, etc.)

 

LegoManiac receives his spanking for lying, and whatever other discipline is involved. I'm upset that he lied to me, I'm upset by the situation, but I am not lashing out at him. It is the pre-determined boundary and consequence for lying. There was much more involved during the 90 minutes we were with him... and the discipline is still on-going. The spanking for lying, however is over.

 

This is no different than what I did with my 5 & 8 yo's last night. All the olders were cleaning the room, but the 5 & 8 yo were not helping. They were goofing around and playing. I gave each of them a specific, small tast to complete. I told them that if the tast was not complete they would lose the privilege of movie night that night. I asked them to repeat the instruction, and the consequence. 5 minutes later, they were roughousing again, I told them there were 5 more minutes... I came back at the end of the specified time... and they were still goofing off. At this point, I pulled them apart, and dealt with each individually. We went over the choices they had, and I asked what choice was made. They understood that this was THEIR choice, and the consequence of their choice.

 

Spanking isn't a surprise, I don't know what to do with you right now thing. It is a specific consequence for a specific action. It does not require a parent to be out of control or fuming with anger... it's follow through. I was "equally" upset in the scenario with LegoManiac as I was with my 5 & 8yo, but the consequences were different based upon the situation.

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ETA: In my "career" as a mom I have not personally any non-spanking families that had predictable boundaries or discipline. I'm glad to read in this thread that they exist. But if I haven't met any, it isn't a far stretch to assume that others haven't either.

 

Hello, I'm Astrid. :seeya: This is my husband, Ray. :seeya: We do not now, nor have we ever spanked our only child, Molly who just turned 14. While I do not labor under the assumption that you will take my word for it, Molly is an exceedingly polite, respectful and compliant child. We hear this constantly from other adults with whom she interacts-- friends' parents, our friends, music teachers, coaches, people in our dog clubs and in the show world in general.

 

Do not get me wrong-- we run a very tight ship. I am confident that we have higher expectations and standards of behavior than all of her peers, and Molly is responsible for many chores around the house: feeding/watering the hens, cats and dogs, grooming the dogs, vacuuming the entire house (three floors,) cleaning her room, doing her own laundry, mowing the lawn, and those are just a few of her "regular" chores. Molly knows that in our home we all work together, and she tackles her responsibilities cheerfully and does them well. I assure you, we do have many boundaries and they are CRYSTAL clear.

 

Have we disciplined her? Yes, of course. But not with physical violence. For the 14 years we've been parents, we have never, EVER raised our hands in anger, frustration or punishment to our child. Never. Ever. Nor have we done so to each other.

 

Nice to meet you! :001_smile: I'm glad I could introduce myself so that now you "know" parents who do not spank and yet have well-behaved, respectful children.

 

astrid

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When we discipline, we offer our children a choice. We issue a verbal warning (not from across the room, but face to face.) We are stern, but calm. We tell the child what is expected, and what the consequence will be.

 

If the consequence is spanking, and the child CHOOSES to ignore the warning, we follow through. Most often this is for lying, and if I'm making THAT the consequence I'm 99.9% certain the individual is lying to me... the conversation goes something like this:

 

Me - "LegoManiac, Did you sign up for ReelVids? I expect the truth, the consequence for lying is three swats." (We were already 99.9% sure that he had done this... we were giving him the opportunity to come clean and help us fix the mess quickly).

 

LegoManiac - "I don't know what that is."

 

Me - "LegoManiac, I know you are lying to me...let's go look at your computer...." And so it goes as we unravel the whole messy truth, (a process which becomes a bit more involved by going back through histories, etc.)

 

LegoManiac receives his spanking for lying, and whatever other discipline is involved. I'm upset that he lied to me, I'm upset by the situation, but I am not lashing out at him. It is the pre-determined boundary and consequence for lying. There was much more involved during the 90 minutes we were with him... and the discipline is still on-going. The spanking for lying, however is over.

 

 

Spanking isn't a surprise, I don't know what to do with you right now thing. It is a specific consequence for a specific action. It does not require a parent to be out of control or fuming with anger... it's follow through. I was "equally" upset in the scenario with LegoManiac as I was with my 5 & 8yo, but the consequences were different based upon the situation.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Exactly this - thank you for explaining it so well.

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To the OP, or anyone else who wants solutions to avoid spanking:

 

Watch the Super Nanny. The naughty chair is the best thing ever invented. You can use the concept wherever you go. The shopping cart becomes the "naughty" cart if the child is acting up in the store. The bench outside church becomes the "naughty bench" if the child is acting up in church. It works for us and has revolutionized our parenting.

 

I have changed my views about spanking. I used to spank for just about every infraction. Now I only spank if my youngest goes in the front yard without permission. We use the naughty chair or couch for everything else, and a lot of explaining and trying to understand where the children are coming from.

 

Just because something has been used/done forever doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

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I keep reading about "calm spanking." I hope *all* of you are referencing the "go sit in your room for the next few hours, until your father gets home..." type, because otherwise this has me flummoxed.

 

When we discipline, we offer our children a choice. We issue a verbal warning (not from across the room, but face to face.) We are stern, but calm. We tell the child what is expected, and what the consequence will be.

 

If the consequence is spanking, and the child CHOOSES to ignore the warning, we follow through. Most often this is for lying, and if I'm making THAT the consequence I'm 99.9% certain the individual is lying to me... the conversation goes something like this:

 

Me - "LegoManiac, Did you sign up for ReelVids? I expect the truth, the consequence for lying is three swats." (We were already 99.9% sure that he had done this... we were giving him the opportunity to come clean and help us fix the mess quickly).

 

LegoManiac - "I don't know what that is."

 

Me - "LegoManiac, I know you are lying to me...let's go look at your computer...." And so it goes as we unravel the whole messy truth, (a process which becomes a bit more involved by going back through histories, etc.)

 

LegoManiac receives his spanking for lying, and whatever other discipline is involved. I'm upset that he lied to me, I'm upset by the situation, but I am not lashing out at him. It is the pre-determined boundary and consequence for lying. There was much more involved during the 90 minutes we were with him... and the discipline is still on-going. The spanking for lying, however is over.

 

This is no different than what I did with my 5 & 8 yo's last night. All the olders were cleaning the room, but the 5 & 8 yo were not helping. They were goofing around and playing. I gave each of them a specific, small tast to complete. I told them that if the tast was not complete they would lose the privilege of movie night that night. I asked them to repeat the instruction, and the consequence. 5 minutes later, they were roughousing again, I told them there were 5 more minutes... I came back at the end of the specified time... and they were still goofing off. At this point, I pulled them apart, and dealt with each individually. We went over the choices they had, and I asked what choice was made. They understood that this was THEIR choice, and the consequence of their choice.

 

Spanking isn't a surprise, I don't know what to do with you right now thing. It is a specific consequence for a specific action. It does not require a parent to be out of control or fuming with anger... it's follow through. I was "equally" upset in the scenario with LegoManiac as I was with my 5 & 8yo, but the consequences were different based upon the situation.

 

Lisa, this is nicely explained. I appreciate it. What I don't understand is why is the consequence for lying a spanking? That's what I don't understand about the thought-out spanking: why, if it's not a "heat of the moment" issue, why not work out a better approach? See - and I can't "know" obviously - but I would bet that whatever took up 90 more minutes and the on-going discipline for lying is the good parenting part. The discipline element shapes the future behavior. It works without spanking, too.

 

In your second example (not getting to see the movie), I'm curious whether they did eventually clean up as required. I don't disagree with the consequence of not getting to see the movie, but I'm wondering if the room did eventually get cleaned up.

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Hello, I'm Astrid. :seeya: This is my husband, Ray. :seeya: We do not now, nor have we ever spanked our only child, Molly who just turned 14. While I do not labor under the assumption that you will take my word for it, Molly is an exceedingly polite, respectful and compliant child. We hear this constantly from other adults with whom she interacts-- friends' parents, our friends, music teachers, coaches, people in our dog clubs and in the show world in general.

 

Do not get me wrong-- we run a very tight ship. I am confident that we have higher expectations and standards of behavior than all of her peers, and Molly is responsible for many chores around the house: feeding/watering the hens, cats and dogs, grooming the dogs, vacuuming the entire house (three floors,) cleaning her room, doing her own laundry, mowing the lawn, and those are just a few of her "regular" chores. Molly knows that in our home we all work together, and she tackles her responsibilities cheerfully and does them well. I assure you, we do have many boundaries and they are CRYSTAL clear.

 

Have we disciplined her? Yes, of course. But not with physical violence. For the 14 years we've been parents, we have never, EVER raised our hands in anger, frustration or punishment to our child. Never. Ever. Nor have we done so to each other.

 

Nice to meet you! :001_smile: I'm glad I could introduce myself so that now you "know" parents who do not spank and yet have well-behaved, respectful children.

 

astrid

 

Nice to meet you! :) Thank you for exhibiting good parenting and not trashing me because I parent differently. Please know that my previous post was not meant to offend anyone, just offer my personal experiences. :001_smile:

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LegoManiac receives his spanking for lying, and whatever other discipline is involved. I'm upset that he lied to me, I'm upset by the situation, but I am not lashing out at him. It is the pre-determined boundary and consequence for lying. There was much more involved during the 90 minutes we were with him... and the discipline is still on-going. The spanking for lying, however is over.

 

May I offer that the family known punishment is why there is still lying?

 

When we lie, what does God do? Silly, us, he already knows. We've done something wrong, we know it's wrong, we didn't listen to our conscience and we want to hide. So we lie. I think MANY kids go through a lying phase. Yes, my kids have lied, but I try not to give them anything to lie about. Let me explain-if that was my house, if he ordered something he shouldn't have, he would lose computer time. He obviously didn't have the maturity to listen to his conscience in the situation of overwhelming temptation to him. Even as adults we do the same (overspending because we want it so bad and not wanting to pay when the CC comes due?). So I would sit him down and talk to him about his conscience, and how we keep it very receptive - by listening to it. We don't smoosh down those first feelings of guilt because that creates a cold heart. So I would take the computer away for a while and then, let him try again. Because spanking is off the table, they aren't afraid of admitting that the deed was done, and don't lie.

This is no different than what I did with my 5 & 8 yo's last night. All the olders were cleaning the room, but the 5 & 8 yo were not helping. They were goofing around and playing. I gave each of them a specific, small tast to complete. I told them that if the tast was not complete they would lose the privilege of movie night that night. I asked them to repeat the instruction, and the consequence. 5 minutes later, they were roughousing again, I told them there were 5 more minutes... I came back at the end of the specified time... and they were still goofing off. At this point, I pulled them apart, and dealt with each individually. We went over the choices they had, and I asked what choice was made. They understood that this was THEIR choice, and the consequence of their choice.

 

Again, when I ask my 5 yo to do something as overwhelming as cleaning up-with fun brothers and sisters-I am there. OF COURSE they end up playing. :confused: Especially at night when they are tired and really have run the course of their self control for the day.

 

It makes me so sad to think that you see them as *choosing* to be spanked when what you were asking was beyond their maturity level. Can my 12 yo do what you asked? Absolutely. Can my 9 yos? Yes, but the 5 AND the 8 together? NO WAY. And my kids are so, so good. They are not crazy, disrespectful, gadabouts.

 

Spanking isn't a surprise, I don't know what to do with you right now thing. It is a specific consequence for a specific action. It does not require a parent to be out of control or fuming with anger... it's follow through. I was "equally" upset in the scenario with LegoManiac as I was with my 5 & 8yo, but the consequences were different based upon the situation.

 

I really think there are easier ways. It's so hard for me to talk calmly about this because I physically hurt in my chest when I read these stories.

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Lisa, this is nicely explained. I appreciate it. What I don't understand is why is the consequence for lying a spanking? That's what I don't understand about the thought-out spanking: why, if it's not a "heat of the moment" issue, why not work out a better approach? See - and I can't "know" obviously - but I would bet that whatever took up 90 more minutes and the on-going discipline for lying is the good parenting part. The discipline element shapes the future behavior. It works without spanking, too.

 

In your second example (not getting to see the movie), I'm curious whether they did eventually clean up as required. I don't disagree with the consequence of not getting to see the movie, but I'm wondering if the room did eventually get cleaned up.

 

Spanking isn't our only tool... however, in most cases, by reserving it for things like lying, my children have become more likely to tell me the truth to avoid the spanking. My goal is for them to answer truthfully. When we stopped spanking for lying, and tried some other suggestions here for 30 days, my children lied to me a LOT more.

 

Most of my children will now tell me the truth, so I rarely spank. It is a concrete consequence, and I'm perfectly happy they want to avoid it by telling me the truth.

 

However, I have one who is extremely difficult and will lie no matter what (even when he's been caught in the act... he'll lie). He is the one who is now pretty much by either my side or dh's side all. day. long. We are currently spending this time doing a LOT of talking (not just me talking at him, but asking, and discussing.) He is reaching an age that he feels he *should* be able to do more, and we aren't letting him -- so he's sneaking around to do X or Y. He's not sneaking around out of fear of being spanked, he's sneaking around because (a) he doesn't trust his father or I would allow him to do things, so he doesn't bother to even ask, and (b) we can't trust him to do X, so certainly aren't going to allow him to do Y. Obviously, we have something here that needs to be fixed on a relational level. We need to build more trust both ways... and more respect both ways.

 

There are things a spanking won't fix, and I don't expect them to.

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Lisa, this is nicely explained. I appreciate it. What I don't understand is why is the consequence for lying a spanking? That's what I don't understand about the thought-out spanking: why, if it's not a "heat of the moment" issue, why not work out a better approach? See - and I can't "know" obviously - but I would bet that whatever took up 90 more minutes and the on-going discipline for lying is the good parenting part. The discipline element shapes the future behavior. It works without spanking, too.

 

.

 

This is the question I am struggling with as well? Why does it have to be a spanking?

 

In our house, we had a child who was prone to lie. It wasn't until I took spanking off the table that we began to get to the heart of the issues. Their fear and anger at the predictable consequence actually caused them to lie...more!

 

We went thru about 2 months of me being what I consider a "permissive" parent. He would lie and I would remind him that it was safe to tell me the truth.....with no direct consequence for the lying. Eventually, he would tell me and we could discuss the "why's" of what he did. By the time we were done talking he desired to do what he could to fix his mistake.

 

We actually, haven't had a problem with lying in months!

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I really think there are easier ways. It's so hard for me to talk calmly about this because I physically hurt in my chest when I read these stories.

 

I don't think you really read what I said. My 5 and 8 yo were not spanked, they didn't get to eat pie, and watch the movie. It was NOT late at night, it was just before dinner. The task was NOT overwhelming, and well within their abilities to complete it. I did NOT ask them to clean up an entire room... I asked one to carry up the dirty clothes and the other to pick up the stuffed animals.

 

As far as it "hurting you" to think that I'm telling my children they are making a CHOICE, that is exactly what they are doing. They understood the instructions given, they acknowledged the instructions given and they CHOSE not to carry up the dirty clothes or pick up the stuffed animals (I think there were 5 on the ground!).

 

Heck, even Super Nanny would understand that they were given a specific task, well within their abilities and CHOSE not to do it. She even uses the terminology of CHOICE. To say a child has "no choice" is essentially saying they can't control themselves... totally not true. While it may be true in certain circumstances (I set a bowl of M&M's in front of them and tell them not to eat any... or take a tired child out to the store at 10pm and they melt down), but in this case, so not true.

 

My 11yo was not "spanked" for being overwhelmed by temptation, but for lying. The being overwhelmed by temptation was dealt with in another manner. They AREN'T spanked if the DON'T lie. They have NO FEAR of a spanking for ADMITTING the deed, period, so your comments are pretty lost on me there.

 

In certain areas we have done very well in eliminating spankings... we have NOT found any successful ways to curtail lying without spanking for that infraction.

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Ugh. When I read these threads I wonder why there is such an us and them mentality. Why paint one another in such extremes? Why not agree to disagree, sharing your personal experience of how you discipline your children and let it rest? Why can't we believe that someone who does differently does so compassionately and effectively? We must either be dull unthinking abusers who only spank because we aren't enlightened, or be permissive neglectful parents who are raising the next generation of lawless infidels.

 

:confused:

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I haven't read this massive thread, but here are my thoughts:

 

Removing corporal punishment does not lead to happier, better adjusted teenagers. Teen suicide rates and depression were much lower in past generations.

 

It has not led to responsible young adults. The generations that got paddled at school, scolded by neighbors all the way home, and spanked again by mom for getting in trouble at school understood that there was no long-term happiness without taking care of your responsibilities.

 

Neither personal property nor violent crimes by teenagers and young adults have not gone down since we removed corporal punishment in schools. In fact, the increase in these crimes is staggering.

 

Removing corporal punishment has not made for a generation of happier or better adjusted young people. Removing corporal punishment has not led to a generation of young people who are more responsible, gentle, or kind. On the whole, it has had the opposite effect.

 

Just a fact!

Mandy

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In certain areas we have done very well in eliminating spankings... we have NOT found any successful ways to curtail lying without spanking for that infraction.

 

You sound like a very good mom! I know in our case the lying did get worse for awhile. I am also sure I will have to cross this bridge again with my son as he grows more and the temptations change. I really do not want to spank him at all, but definetly not when he gets bigger!!! ;)

 

:grouphug:s and thanks for sharing!

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"When we lie, what does God do? Silly, us, he already knows. We've done something wrong, we know it's wrong, we didn't listen to our conscience and we want to hide. So we lie. I think MANY kids go through a lying phase. Yes, my kids have lied, but I try not to give them anything to lie about. Let me explain-if that was my house, if he ordered something he shouldn't have, he would lose computer time. He obviously didn't have the maturity to listen to his conscience in the situation of overwhelming temptation to him. Even as adults we do the same (overspending because we want it so bad and not wanting to pay when the CC comes due?). So I would sit him down and talk to him about his conscience, and how we keep it very receptive - by listening to it. We don't smoosh down those first feelings of guilt because that creates a cold heart. So I would take the computer away for a while and then, let him try again. Because spanking is off the table, they aren't afraid of admitting that the deed was done, and don't lie. "

 

Uh - my kids would be far more afraid of losing computer time than of being spanked. I'm not saying that sacrasticly, I am completely serious. If you asked them now - they would absolutely agree.

 

Mandy, thank you for posting facts. You can't really argue with those (although I'm sure someone will try).

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This is the question I am struggling with as well? Why does it have to be a spanking?

 

In our house, we had a child who was prone to lie. It wasn't until I took spanking off the table that we began to get to the heart of the issues. Their fear and anger at the predictable consequence actually caused them to lie...more!

 

We went thru about 2 months of me being what I consider a "permissive" parent. He would lie and I would remind him that it was safe to tell me the truth.....with no direct consequence for the lying. Eventually, he would tell me and we could discuss the "why's" of what he did. By the time we were done talking he desired to do what he could to fix his mistake.

 

We actually, haven't had a problem with lying in months!

 

I am happy you have found a solution to this issue that works in your family. We have not. As I mentioned, we *have* tried many other solutions for quite a long time (several months), and the lying simply got worse and worse. They thought some of the things we were doing were just silly and lied on purpose and would laugh about it. My younger 3 do not lie very often -- they are only likely to lie if I forget to explain the consequence, if I do re-explain the consequence, I get truth.

 

My oldest is the one for whom we have yet to find a currency for discipline. Taking away MP3, Wii, computer time, tv time, friends, sending to bed, spanking, loss of a campling weekend... praise charts, special rewards have all failed with this child. He is PROUD of his feats, and still brags about some of the things he has done (this is the child who BROKE Norton. I mean BROKE it, we couldn't turn it on, and he could go anywhere on the internet. He was FOUR. He thinks he is smarter and knows better than anyone else. It took us 12 hours to fix that one (and no, he wasn't spanked for it). It does not help that outsiders keep reinforcing his pride in his abilities. (Please, don't get me wrong, he IS smart, too smart for his own good sometimes, but we aren't praising him for being smart. That's like praising him for having blue eyes or a cute dimple). I am hoping that the time he is spending working by my side, or by dh's side will help us to build the mutual trust and respect that is apparently lacking. We are giving him more of US, in the hopes that we can resolve these issues, and guide him to becoming the young man we know he could be.

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I haven't read this massive thread, but here are my thoughts:

 

Removing corporal punishment does not lead to happier, better adjusted teenagers. Teen suicide rates and depression were much lower in past generations.

 

It has not led to responsible young adults. The generations that got paddled at school, scolded by neighbors all the way home, and spanked again by mom for getting in trouble at school understood that there was no long-term happiness without taking care of your responsibilities.

 

Neither personal property nor violent crimes by teenagers and young adults have not gone down since we removed corporal punishment in schools. In fact, the increase in these crimes is staggering.

 

Removing corporal punishment has not made for a generation of happier or better adjusted young people. Removing corporal punishment has not led to a generation of young people who are more responsible, gentle, or kind. On the whole, it has had the opposite effect.

 

Just a fact!

Mandy

 

 

Can you point me in the direction of some studies that prove the correlation?

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You sound like a very good mom! I know in our case the lying did get worse for awhile. I am also sure I will have to cross this bridge again with my son as he grows more and the temptations change. I really do not want to spank him at all, but definetly not when he gets bigger!!! ;)

 

:grouphug:s and thanks for sharing!

 

Thanks, Simka... I want to be a better mom. I feel like I fail miserably so often. I still have much to learn, and will still keep reading and applying new techniques, praying and asking God to work on my heart and help me do what needs to be done.

 

I know it starts with me...

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Oh, thanks - you reminded me that I was avoiding this thread for a reason. I had bowed out a few pages ago - I guess curiosity got the better of me....

 

Um...ok. Not really sure what your point is. I was honestly confused. I read Mandy's post and saw a inductive fallacy. I didn't see facts. I thought I had missed something.

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