treading gently here...

[ChrissySC]

If I understand, the assumption is that spanking a child is a quick impulsive action usually backed by anger or resentment because of the actions of that child?

 

I can see this happening. However, if any form of punishement is thought out and well-suited to the defiance or danger, I can't see the issue of using physical deterents, spanking. Pain for pain - if it is a danger, I agree. However, as many of us tend to be in agreement, not spanking for talking back or running in the house is typical.

 

 

OP:

 

So, I have to ask .... because I am curious .... what is the point? Did you read something? Curious about your choice to spank or not? Or just being judgemental? :)

[Joanne]

I The argument that we just need to return to the 'good ol days' and kids misbehave because they aren't spanked is really tiresome. I worked with juvenile deliquents and not one of them came from permissive, non-spanking parents, there are many factors in how kids turn out. .

 

:iagree: Research and my own observation supports this.

[elfgivas]

this whole thread has me very sad.

 

we are actually really talking about being accepting of someone hitting someone they love as an expression of caring.

 

i simply can't and won't go there.

ann

[AmyTompkins]

Sometimes I think people who "don't spank, have never spanked and can't imagine why you would spank a child" perhaps have had children who didn't really need that type of correction. If that is true, congratulations. I have had both kinds of children in my care and one that is a preteen now, whom I would not spank, but would have been far better off with a few spankings as a smaller child!!!!

 

Do what works. Don't do it in anger. Use common sense and love.

[Ellesmere]

 

No spanking doesn't equal no discipline. I am not sure why so many people think it does.

 

Why do some people think it equals no discipline? Because some people are raised from birth to believe that. Their spiritual leaders, parents, teachers, and friends believe it. And they all seem like perfectly nice people, talented, well-dressed and seemingly well-educated (although I would argue they were indoctrinated.)

 

They have close leaders backing the teaching up with so-called Biblical support. Some people are sadly isolated in social circles with limited diversity and it seems like "everyone" follows this line of thinking.

[ChrissySC]

I don't think it is the corrective use of spanking so much as it is the words!

 

What do you say when your child makes you angry while jumping from the sofa for the 15th time? Do you shout? Do you scream? What are those words that you use? Accompany those words with the spanking, and I think that you have the perfect pot of obedience and defiance on your hands with a side of low self esteem.

 

It isn't just the spanking people. And sometimes, the kid just does bad things and no matter what is just a rotten kid. :)

 

Don't ever judge any parent. IMO

[twoforjoy]

Sometimes I think people who "don't spank, have never spanked and can't imagine why you would spank a child" perhaps have had children who didn't really need that type of correction. If that is true, congratulations. I have had both kinds of children in my care and one that is a preteen now, whom I would not spank, but would have been far better off with a few spankings as a smaller child!!!!

 

How do you know that? Difficult, defiant children do NOT always or even usually respond well to spanking. In many cases it will just make them more angry and defiant, and more likely to lash out. It doesn't lead automatically to more obedience.

[kchara]

I think spanking is a straw man in a parenting discussion.

 

I know spanked kids who are delightful and spanked kids who are awful to be around. I know not-spanked kids who are delightful and not-spanked kids who are awful to be around.

 

My belief is that how kids turn out has more to do with the interplay of their personalities with their parents' personalities, and the types of things that occurred to stress the family as the child grows up, than it does with whether they were ever spanked. If parents are reasonably consistent, stable, and loving, chances are their kids will turn out fine whether they were spanked or not.

 

Spanking does not automatically create well-behaved kids, nor does it automatically create bitter, resentful kids. I think spanking is a far less powerful issue than people make it out to be.

 

Tara

 

:iagree::iagree: Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

[Joanne]

Sometimes I think people who "don't spank, have never spanked and can't imagine why you would spank a child" perhaps have had children who didn't really need that type of correction. If that is true, congratulations. I have had both kinds of children in my care and one that is a preteen now, whom I would not spank, but would have been far better off with a few spankings as a smaller child!!!!

 

Do what works. Don't do it in anger. Use common sense and love.

 

This is one of my personal pet peeves. I don't believe in spanking as discipline. This is true across the board, and not an theory born of having compliant children.

 

I have not spanking my own 3, the dozens I've had in daycare (from 3-12 hours a day), in before and after school care. I assure you, I've come across all forms of challenging.

 

If you don't believe in spanking, and it is off the table as an option, you don't go there simply because you have a child that presents specific discipline challenges.

[JeneralMom]

Neither my brother nor I were spanked or physically punished. I do not spank because I do not believe causing pain is an effective means of discipline for my children. My children are polite, respectful and well-disciplined. I resent the implication (not from this thread but in general) that not spanking = not disciplining.

 

I do have friends who spank and I do not judge them for it.

[Joanne]

It isn't just the spanking people. And sometimes, the kid just does bad things and no matter what is just a rotten kid. :)

 

Don't ever judge any parent. IMO

 

:confused: With very few exceptions, I do not believe in "rotten kids". I work with the highest level of at risk kids from the CPS system and the juvenile court system, and I STILL don't believe in "just a rotten kid".

 

I don't feel the need to avoid judging parents.

[Soror]

:confused: With very few exceptions, I do not believe in "rotten kids". I work with the highest level of at risk kids from the CPS system and the juvenile court system, and I STILL don't believe in "just a rotten kid".

 

I don't feel the need to avoid judging parents.

Yes, I worked in the juvenile system as well with kids with minor offenses up to murder , rape and molestation. Lots of there for molestation. Considering the life most of them have lived it is not surprising. Most I seen just wanted a chance to be a kid like anyone else. It is hard when they go back into the same environment. I cannot imagine that tremendous pressure.. You have to change the parents first.

[Momof3littles]

This is one of my personal pet peeves. I don't believe in spanking as discipline. This is true across the board, and not an theory born of having compliant children.

 

I have not spanking my own 3, the dozens I've had in daycare (from 3-12 hours a day), in before and after school care. I assure you, I've come across all forms of challenging.

 

If you don't believe in spanking, and it is off the table as an option, you don't go there simply because you have a child that presents specific discipline challenges.

 

My feelings are similar. I've worked in early intervention and in the school systems as a PT. Spanking is obviously not an option. There are many other tools in the toolbox, and even with the most challenging children, spanking is never, ever an option obviously. I feel if I can find other options in those cases, I certainly don't need to spank my own children.

 

I've been around plenty of "challenging" kids and spanking was not an option, no matter what.

[LibraryLover]

My feelings are similar. I've worked in early intervention and in the school systems as a PT. Spanking is obviously not an option. There are many other tools in the toolbox, and even with the most challenging children, spanking is never, ever an option obviously. I feel if I can find other options in those cases, I certainly don't need to spank my own children.

 

I've been around plenty of "challenging" kids and spanking was not an option, no matter what.[/QUOTE]

 

 

I *have* a challenging child. I truly believe spanking would have ruined this child on an emotional level. Sensitive children do often need sensitive handling.

Edited August 19, 2011 by LibraryLover

[ChrissySC]

OK, seriously, are we talking about parents who spank or abusive parents or even troubled children?

 

I respond to spanking and get taken to the juvenile justice system?

 

And, in response to that, without other circumstances being a factor, yes a child can just be a rotten child. Otherwise, you are saying that they are not responsible for their actions. That is another debate entirely. There is a fine line to walk here with this topic.

 

<off to eat some lunch>

[AmyTompkins]

How do you know that? Difficult, defiant children do NOT always or even usually respond well to spanking. In many cases it will just make them more angry and defiant, and more likely to lash out. It doesn't lead automatically to more obedience.

 

I don't know that. Thank you for your dissertation on how some children react to a spanking. I have seven really well behaved, happy children that are a joy to be around. My discipline for each is tailored to their personality. I just think people need to use love and common sense and stop being so darned opinionated about others' choices to the point of being rude.

[Joanne]

I don't know that. Thank you for your dissertation on how some children react to a spanking. I have seven really well behaved, happy children that are a joy to be around. My discipline for each is tailored to their personality. I just think people need to use love and common sense and stop being so darned opinionated about others' choices to the point of being rude.

 

With respect, do you not understand the passion behind some people who are anti-spanking? If they do not consider it discipline, and see it as hitting children, can't you see why they are so vehement? Even if you have a differing paradigm?

 

If they believe that spanking = hitting children, they *should* be adament, yes? It makes sense to me, anyway.

[LibraryLover]

I don't know that. Thank you for your dissertation on how some children react to a spanking. I have seven really well behaved, happy children that are a joy to be around. My discipline for each is tailored to their personality. I just think people need to use love and common sense and stop being so darned opinionated about others' choices to the point of being rude.

 

 

Let's not get this closed. We're discussing a difficult topic and people are being very careful. I am sure you have nice children. Some of us who don't spank also have nice children. Some children will be harmed by spanking, but do I believe that there are adults who were spanked who are fine.

Edited August 19, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Runningmom80]

 

It has really only been in the last half century that that mind set has been calling what was once acceptable and common "abuse." (I'm not talking about more severe punishments with harmful physical consequences, and I am not talking about the Pearls.) Now, if spanking or switching is abuse, then our parents and grandparents and great grandparents, who we love, were abusers. That can be hard to swallow.

 

If we say that they were not abusers, they were just ignorant, then we must allow for that ignorance in society today and gently educate instead of verbally shame and chastise.

 

I can't write any more at the moment, but this is my opinion, fwiw.

 

 

It is no excuse for parents today to use corporal punishment.

 

 

"When you know better, you do better."

 

 

We should all know better by now.

[twoforjoy]

I don't know that. Thank you for your dissertation on how some children react to a spanking. I have seven really well behaved, happy children that are a joy to be around. My discipline for each is tailored to their personality. I just think people need to use love and common sense and stop being so darned opinionated about others' choices to the point of being rude.

 

I agree.

 

(And if you think that was a dissertation, you haven't seen me when I really get going! ;))

 

I have had both kinds of children in my care and one that is a preteen now, whom I would not spank, but would have been far better off with a few spankings as a smaller child!!!!

 

This is the part I was objecting to, this idea that, if only kids were/had been spanked, they'd be better behaved. There is simply no evidence to back that assertion.

 

I've seen several people on this thread indicate that they think that more defiant/challenging kids need spankings. My point was just that that's not necessarily the case; some of those kids will respond even more negatively to spanking than to other discipline methods. You can't look at a kid who's misbehaving and say "If only his parents spanked him!" Unfortunately, that seems to be what many people do (and in many cases I'm guessing that child is spanked).

[Haiku]

No spanking doesn't equal no discipline. I am not sure why so many people think it does.

 

I do NOT believe that no spanking = no discipline, but here is my observation on why some people think it does:

 

Too many encounters with smug young parents whose children run wild while the smug young parents smile smugly and explain that they don't believe in spanking their children.

 

It's not the lack of spanking that is the problem; it's the lack of overall correction of the child's behavior. But when the parents themselves peg their discipline strategy as "no spanking," it's no wonder that those who witness their little angels at work equate no spanking with no discipline.

 

Tara

[justamouse]

I agree.

 

(And if you think that was a dissertation, you haven't seen me when I really get going! ;))

 

 

 

This is the part I was objecting to, this idea that, if only kids were/had been spanked, they'd be better behaved. There is simply no evidence to back that assertion.

 

I've seen several people on this thread indicate that they think that more defiant/challenging kids need spankings. My point was just that that's not necessarily the case; some of those kids will respond even more negatively to spanking than to other discipline methods. You can't look at a kid who's misbehaving and say "If only his parents spanked him!" Unfortunately, that seems to be what many people do (and in many cases I'm guessing that child is spanked).

:iagree::iagree:

 

That was my first, the 21 yo ds, and the reason I became a non spanker. Spanking does NOT equal a well behaved child. It's not discipline, it's punishment. I changed my parenting, am not a spanker, and my kids are great.

Edited August 19, 2011 by justamouse

[LibraryLover]

Those folks are still such a minority. I know Mothering.com (where most people have small babies & are high on oxytocin) would have us believe otherwise, ;) but even among my hippie unschooling friends, none are letting their children run wild. lol I live in MA..believe me...except for Northern CA & the PNW, I've never seen such a concentration of gentle hippie breastfeeders.

 

And even in socialist ;) godless Massachusetts, there are more people who spank than don't.

 

 

 

 

 

I do NOT believe that no spanking = no discipline, but here is my observation on why some people think it does:

 

Too many encounters with smug young parents whose children run wild while the smug young parents smile smugly and explain that they don't believe in spanking their children.

 

It's not the lack of spanking that is the problem; it's the lack of overall correction of the child's behavior. But when the parents themselves peg their discipline strategy as "no spanking," it's no wonder that those who witness their little angels at work equate no spanking with no discipline.

 

Tara

Edited August 19, 2011 by LibraryLover

[phathui5]

You could try reading the book 123 Magic.

[Joanne]

Actually, LL, I have to disagree. I hate disagreeing with you.

 

But I *have* observed a greater percentage of overall permissiveness among those who identify as "non spankers". That would include a significant percentage of crunchy-earth-mama types, AP types, LLL types.

 

I even wrote about it on my Happy Homeschooler blog a few years ago, admitting that I understand the perception of some parents in reaction to "non spanking".

 

I think the lack of parenting often corresponds with what attracts people to a counter-cultural choice such as AP, homeschooling, not spanking. It gets complicated as to why a person goes there as a parent.

 

But, in general, people who hang their hat on "non spanking", IME, often under-parent.

 

Coming back to add that it's the "name only" parenting that is permissive, and that kind of "parenting" transcends the spanking issue. You know the parent who keeps saying their child's name but never moves? The non spanking parent finally gives up. The spanking (but permissive) parent eventually gets up and spanks. Both are parenting poorly.

 

 

 

Those folks are still such a minority. I know Mothering.com would have us believe otherwise, but even among my hippie unschooling friends, none are letting their children run wild. lol I live in MA..believe me...except for the PNW, I've never seen such a concentration of hippie breastfeeders.

 

And even in socialist godless Massachusetts, there are more people who spank than don't.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaraTheLiberator

I do NOT believe that no spanking = no discipline, but here is my observation on why some people think it does:

 

Too many encounters with smug young parents whose children run wild while the smug young parents smile smugly and explain that they don't believe in spanking their children.

 

It's not the lack of spanking that is the problem; it's the lack of overall correction of the child's behavior. But when the parents themselves peg their discipline strategy as "no spanking," it's no wonder that those who witness their little angels at work equate no spanking with no discipline.

 

Tara

Edited August 19, 2011 by Joanne

[coffeefreak]

And in decades past, people didn't even believe babies felt pain. Circumcisions and more intense surgeries were performed on babies who were thought to not even feel pain :(

 

I think the argument that it has been going on for hundreds of years really glosses over the amount we've learned about child development and psychology.

 

I honestly don't understand how smacking a toddler on the rump will prevent them from running the next time. Psychologically, young toddlers have poor impulse control. Why not just keep them from running, period? We've never swatted a child for trying to take off. If they attempt to run away or I feel they might, they go directly into the stroller, the sling, hold my hand, or be carried. I see absolutely no point in punishing afterward. As my kids have matured it hasn't been a problem. I wouldn't want to rely on the "lesson" taught from previous spankings for running into the street..IMO, why not prevent in the first place? If I'm not preventing, I'm not doing my job as a parent, and I would be angry with myself if my child took off. Ditto any other dangerous situation that people advocate spanking for. I'd rather use the twist style outlet covers than have to swat a toddler attempting to stick a fork in there.

 

Sometimes, all the prevention in the world doesn't prevent them from getting away. My oldest tried to run into the street one time only ONCE. She was 3. I was getting the baby out of the car and I had her blocked in between me and the door. But, when I stood up, she saw her daddy and started to run. A truck was coming and I had a split second before he hit her in which I grabbed what I could reach. It ended up being her hair. Yes, I just about "Snatched her Bald-headed.":lol: But, she never did it again. She vaguely remembers it, but boy did she learn. Did I mean to grab her hair, no. However, I would have spanked her if she had ever tried to do it again.

 

I agree that as parents we're responsible for preventing what we can, but things happen.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[twoforjoy]

Those folks are still such a minority. I know Mothering.com would have us believe otherwise, ;) but even among my hippie unschooling friends, none are letting their children run wild. lol I live in MA..believe me...except for the PNW, I've never seen such a concentration of hippie breastfeeders.

 

And even in socialist ;) godless Massachusetts, there are more people who spank than don't.

 

Along with that, though, what do we think is going to happen to this kids who run wild? They're going to grow up to be criminals?

 

Speaking of treading gently, I'm going to tread very gently on this, but I do think it's worth saying...

 

Most of the parents I know--and there are VERY few--who let their little ones run wild and don't discipline are well-educated, affluent types (I really only saw this among a small number of parents when I lived in Ann Arbor, MI, an area not known for either authoritarian parenting OR producing criminals). And, frankly, their kids will be fine. Their kids are not going to end up raping and pillaging and stealing cars and bringing about the downfall of civilization as we know it. They may, it's true, be entitled, obnoxious little brats who e-mail their college professors sixteen times demanding a grade change when they don't get an A in a course, but many of their spanked peers from the same social milieu will also turn out that way. They are, most likely, going to be among those we consider successful and well-adjusted, despite their behavior as children.

 

And, now that I live in Detroit, where corporal punishment is absolutely the norm, I see many, many children small children who are very obedient. Shockingly so, in fact. I go to the doctor's office, and cannot believe that these kids will, at 1 and 2, sit silently in their parents' lap for an hour or more, waiting. Even my very well-behaved DD wouldn't do that. And if they don't do it, they get a swat. These are obedient kids and nobody would argue they weren't disciplined. But, statistically, many of them are very likely to end up dropping out of school, engaging in criminal activity, and winding up in prison. It's terrible and unfortunate, but it's reality. (And I've also seen these kids as preteens and teens, and many of them know exactly how to act obedient to your face, and then turn around and break your trust. I just had to tell a boy he isn't allowed in our home any more. He put on that "I'm so obedient and respectful" act, and then stole stuff from my son while he was over.)

 

Now, obviously the difference here isn't how these kids were raised. It has way more to do with socioeconomic status and opportunity and culture. But that's the point. How kids end up isn't, I don't think, very much determined by how or even if they were disciplined at all. A kid from Ann Arbor, no matter how they were raised, is very likely to end up finishing their education and being productive, law-abiding members of society. A kid from Detroit is very likely to end up dropping out of school and quite likely to even end up in jail (if a male), again regardless of how they were disciplined as a child. The determining factors go so far beyond parental discipline.

 

Or, to put it another way, the way we act at two, and how we're disciplined as children, has very little to do with the kind of adults we'll end up being. That seems to go against everything the parenting manuals tell us, but there doesn't seem to be any way around it.

Edited August 19, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Soror]

I see lots of permissive spankers here. They tell the kid 3063 times to stop this or don't do that and then finally get up just to spank them. Then complain they don't listen, of course they don't listen, there is no follow through.

[coffeefreak]

As for Spanking overall, I agree, spanking does not equal good kids. And, many times it does not come close to touching a child's heart. I've read where parents spank for direct defiance, but what kid understands why they were spanked for direct defiance? It made more sense to us to spank for things like hitting your sister, or kicking and biting. Everything else is a heart issue that has nothing to do with physical harm to self or others.

 

Clay Clarkson wrote an excellent book on the subject. He actually doesn't believe in spanking at all anymore and freely admits he hardened his son's heart by spanking for everything as prescribed by the church. I think the parents who brag about their kid's behavior as a result of spanking will be very surprised to see what happens when their kids are older and can truly show how they feel without the fear of getting walloped.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[AmyTompkins]

With respect, do you not understand the passion behind some people who are anti-spanking? If they do not consider it discipline, and see it as hitting children, can't you see why they are so vehement? Even if you have a differing paradigm?

 

If they believe that spanking = hitting children, they *should* be adament, yes? It makes sense to me, anyway.

 

 

I do not think that adamant must equal rude. I don't see why we cannot give each other the charity of trusting that each parent knows best what their children need and your "right" may not be another person's "right".

[Joanne]

Or, to put it another way, the way we act at two, and how we're disciplined as children, has very little to do with the kind of adults we'll end up being. That seems to go against everything the parenting manuals tell us, but there doesn't seem to be any way around it.

 

I agree to an extent, and have posted similarly in the past.

 

There is not a straight, linear line between behavior at 2 and behavior at 12, 22 or 42.

 

I would give a little more power of influence credit to extremes: trauma, neglect, abuse, extremely indulgent.

[Joanne]

I do not think that adamant must equal rude. I don't see why we cannot give each other the charity of trusting that each parent knows best what their children need and your "right" may not be another person's "right".

 

I haven't seen anything rude in this thread. I see disagreement. I see that you are defensive and hurt, possibly because it is your parenting choices that some posters are being critical of.

 

But I have not seen anything out of line, or even close.

[ereks mom]

Loving parents spank and don't spank. Crazy, neurotic parents spank and don't spank. I have seen some terrible parenting from both camps.

Spanking is not the be all and end all definition of good and bad parenting. Kids are amazingly resilient.

 

I do think we live in different times to the past and in order to move to a more human society, we can learn from others (and our grandparents usually only had other spankers to learn from...not people who had found another way. Also, abuse was pretty common- my dh was abused daily simply because spanking was considered normal and good). I am admiring that in places like Sweden, I have heard, they just don't spank.

 

However, I have spanked and I think my kids have survived ok, with deep sensitivity intact. Truthfully I would *ideally* have had the resources, the role models, the teachers, and the patience, to have found other ways to discipline, to guide, and to handle my own overwhelm at times, but I did the best I could at the time.

 

:iagree:

[justamouse]

I do not think that adamant must equal rude. I don't see why we cannot give each other the charity of trusting that each parent knows best what their children need and your "right" may not be another person's "right".

 

Where has anyone been rude? :confused:

[AmyTompkins]

I agree.

 

(And if you think that was a dissertation, you haven't seen me when I really get going! ;))

 

 

 

This is the part I was objecting to, this idea that, if only kids were/had been spanked, they'd be better behaved. There is simply no evidence to back that assertion.

 

I was speaking of my situation and my child exclusively, as we all should stick to.

[ereks mom]

I think spanking is a straw man in a parenting discussion.

 

I know spanked kids who are delightful and spanked kids who are awful to be around. I know not-spanked kids who are delightful and not-spanked kids who are awful to be around.

 

My belief is that how kids turn out has more to do with the interplay of their personalities with their parents' personalities, and the types of things that occurred to stress the family as the child grows up, than it does with whether they were ever spanked. If parents are reasonably consistent, stable, and loving, chances are their kids will turn out fine whether they were spanked or not.

 

Spanking does not automatically create well-behaved kids, nor does it automatically create bitter, resentful kids. I think spanking is a far less powerful issue than people make it out to be.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

[LibraryLover]

You can disagree with me. :) If there are some gentle parents who are 'underparenting' small children, I do think you might find fewer 'well behaved' little ones...kids who are running around where perhaps they should not be running. Perhaps they are not sitting quietly in public.

 

That behavior bothers me less than children who grow up angry and take that anger out on society because they were handled too harshly in childhood.

 

We've all known busy, mischevious children who've grown into well -adjusted, hardworking adults.

 

 

Actually, LL, I have to disagree. I hate disagreeing with you.

 

But I *have* observed a greater percentage of overall permissiveness among those who identify as "non spankers". That would include a significant percentage of crunchy-earth-mama types, AP types, LLL types.

 

I even wrote about it on my Happy Homeschooler blog a few years ago, admitting that I understand the perception of some parents in reaction to "non spanking".

 

I think the lack of parenting often corresponds with what attracts people to a counter-cultural choice such as AP, homeschooling, not spanking. It gets complicated as to why a person goes there as a parent.

 

But, in general, people who hang their hat on "non spanking", IME, often under-parent.

 

Coming back to add that it's the "name only" parenting that is permissive, and that kind of "parenting" transcends the spanking issue. You know the parent who keeps saying their child's name but never moves? The non spanking parent finally gives up. The spanking (but permissive) parent eventually gets up and spanks. Both are parenting poorly.

[AmyTompkins]

I haven't seen anything rude in this thread. I see disagreement. I see that you are defensive and hurt, possibly because it is your parenting choices that some posters are being critical of.

 

But I have not seen anything out of line, or even close.

 

I am not hurt or defensive. The original post seemed to be addressing something other than where this was taken.

[justamouse]

Actually, LL, I have to disagree. I hate disagreeing with you.

 

But I *have* observed a greater percentage of overall permissiveness among those who identify as "non spankers". That would include a significant percentage of crunchy-earth-mama types, AP types, LLL types.

 

I even wrote about it on my Happy Homeschooler blog a few years ago, admitting that I understand the perception of some parents in reaction to "non spanking".

 

I think the lack of parenting often corresponds with what attracts people to a counter-cultural choice such as AP, homeschooling, not spanking. It gets complicated as to why a person goes there as a parent.

 

But, in general, people who hang their hat on "non spanking", IME, often under-parent.

 

Coming back to add that it's the "name only" parenting that is permissive, and that kind of "parenting" transcends the spanking issue. You know the parent who keeps saying their child's name but never moves? The non spanking parent finally gives up. The spanking (but permissive) parent eventually gets up and spanks. Both are parenting poorly.

 

I see the same thing, with the same types.

 

It's almost like the pendulum has to swing highly in the opposite direction before balance is found.

[Wendi]

:iagree::iagree: My brothers and I were spanked---and are healthy functioning adults. Our kids were spanked when needed----and are not scarred whatsoever. They see that kids who aren't spanked or otherwise disciplined properly are awful brats to be around. That there is even a debate about 'spanking' is ridiculous. It is not beating or abuse when used properly.

 

Really? This is a big assumption. I don't know how you and your kids can tell who is spanked and who isn't. And I think there are a lot of factors that go into someone's attitude, behavior, etc.; why do you think spanking is the only one that counts? And if most people were spanked in earlier generations, why was there crime, unhappiness, etc.?

 

Wendi

[justamouse]

I am not hurt or defensive. The original post seemed to be addressing something other than where this was taken.

 

That's kind of the nature of threads. It's a discussion. It flows.

[simka2]

I am not hurt or defensive. The original post seemed to be addressing something other than where this was taken.[/QUOTE]

 

 

That is very normal.

[ereks mom]

Mine are too old to spank now and have absolutely no need anyway, but I'll freely admit to being a spanker in the past when it has been needed and I'd continue to do so in the future if I had any more kids. I honestly don't care what others think. It's not abuse. There's nothing at all mentally that I need to get over. I simply disagree with the current fad. To each our own. ;)

 

(Like you, I'm not talking about the type of spanking that is abuse.)

 

:iagree:

[twoforjoy]

I agree to an extent, and have posted similarly in the past.

 

There is not a straight, linear line between behavior at 2 and behavior at 12, 22 or 42.

 

And yet it does often feel like there is, especially with a first child.

 

I'm fortunate that my best friend is a child psychologist and also very patient. When my son was 2, I'd call her on a weekly basis, telling her about how I was SURE I'd already ruined him. It was over. Clearly, he was going to be a despot, a serial killer, or both. I had raised Pol Pot. I mean, he threw tantrums, threw objects, hit when upset, demanded his own way all the time, wouldn't accept no for an answer, and on and on. He wasn't even potty-trained yet, and I'd ruined him. I was pretty sure that the only thing that would ensure he didn't throw tantrums, hit people, and start biting when somebody said "no" as an adult was if I managed to parent it out of him ASAP. The idea that maybe just not being two would help the situation greatly didn't occur to me, although my friend was nice enough to remind me.

[ChrissySC]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/08/17/exp.ac.intv.Zichterman.cnn

 

Is this what spawned the discussion?

 

 

The book is called Ungodly Discipline - a child is dead from being spanked.

[AmyTompkins]

No, you guys are right about it being normal to flow on a topic.. or even flow off topic. I guess when I was reading posts where some parents are saying they spank out of love and as a choice that I feel like we need to take them at face value. Logic prevails, to me anyway, that if they are on here posting about their discipline choices with respect that they likely are not hurting their children. When other posters reply that some people just "don't know better" or "aren't aware there are other options" t seems a bit condescending. I just think our mothering tasks are enough to keep us busy without needing to judge others for their methods.

[Momling]

I spanked my younger daughter one time when she was three. We were driving in the car on the highway on the way home and she kept unfastening her carseat. I had to keep pulling over and was so frustrated. Finally I said, "If you do that again, I'll spank you." She had no idea what that even meant. She did it again. I spanked her. I felt awful... kind of primitive and aggressive. She never did it again. I didn't either.

 

To this day, though... any time the kids are bickering in the car, I threaten to pull over and they do start behaving.

 

So... in my very limited experience with my younger daughter, spanking was effective, but went against every parenting instinct I have.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

No, you guys are right about it being normal to flow on a topic.. or even flow off topic. I guess when I was reading posts where some parents are saying they spank out of love and as a choice that I feel like we need to take them at face value. Logic prevails, to me anyway, that if they are on here posting about their discipline choices with respect that they likely are not hurting their children. When other posters reply that some people just "don't know better" or "aren't aware there are other options" t seems a bit condescending. I just think our mothering tasks are enough to keep us busy without needing to judge others for their methods.

 

I can see that but in the other thread I got the impression you might say the same of the Pearl's methods. That is we should not judge them for using and recommending their methods which in my opinion are abusive:001_huh: What the Pearls recommend is far beyond the occasional swat on the behind with an open hand. I also get that the parents who killed their kid are responsible for their actions but that does not make the Pearls completely innocent in this matter IMHO.

 

ETA: I think we should always speak out on injustices.

[SonshineLearner]

You know, this discussion is interesting to me.... I use to spank more... and now spank much less (last time was months ago) And always have been kinda careful to not be a parent who just uses spanking to be what I think will train my children to be good <future> adults. But, this is like everything else; we all have great opinions for our families... and we get to make those. I have VERY strong feelings about chx pox vaccines, some of the other vaccines.... circumcision (did I tell you I think it is an AWFUL) decision? I think wearing babies is important, and strollers are for diaper bags and other children's coats.... Yelling.. (oh my, do you YELL at your children??)... I sleep with my children, do you emotionally scar them, by making them sleep by themselves? I totally believe in organic food. (did you know that sometimes we let them eat at McDonald's?) And more... there are SO many things that parents decide upon. I totally believe that children can be spanked and be ok... and not spanked... and be ok. And, BTW, sometimes I think that some serious pain for adults could be used, too. I think back to the guy in maybe Singapore?? who was interviewed on tv.... he had r*ped someone and was caned. (Back when the teen was getting caned for paint spraying cars) He said that he couldn't even look at women without feeling pain. But, don't misquote me... I don't think that children should be caned. We have two children who are really good (the olders, my steps) who have never been spanked. BUT, they have other scars.... They are sweet.... will do well in life.... But I'm not sure that any child makes it through childhood without some sadness. Divorce... it can be horrible for kids... even when they're adults. I think it would be nice if some of us would just offer nice advice... alternatives if we feel them beneficial, without feeling that our family is leading the way in "rightness"

[myfunnybunch]

I think spanking is a straw man in a parenting discussion.

 

I know spanked kids who are delightful and spanked kids who are awful to be around. I know not-spanked kids who are delightful and not-spanked kids who are awful to be around.

 

My belief is that how kids turn out has more to do with the interplay of their personalities with their parents' personalities, and the types of things that occurred to stress the family as the child grows up, than it does with whether they were ever spanked. If parents are reasonably consistent, stable, and loving, chances are their kids will turn out fine whether they were spanked or not.

 

Spanking does not automatically create well-behaved kids, nor does it automatically create bitter, resentful kids. I think spanking is a far less powerful issue than people make it out to be.

 

Tara

 

Yes, this.

 

My sister spanks. I do not. We both have children who are fun to be around most of the time, have a desire to be obedient and helpful, are age-appropriately responsible, kind and compassioante, and enjoy the adults in their lives.

 

Spanking makes me cringe. I don't think I could spank one of my children. It feels too much to me like hitting. But that's my personal feeling. When we (general we) say spanking or non-spanking is sure to create children who are _____ (fill in the blank), we overlook and disregard all of the other factors that impact a child's development.

 

Cat