treading gently here...

[annandatje]

LOL, you might have noticed I said "one of OUR daughters." I have no idea which of our daughters will come home pregnant, nor do you. Point is, THAT would be something to get emotional about. Not the fact that someone here slapped her kid's butt for some childhood offense.

 

Seems to me that those who are moved to "slap a kid's butt" get more riled up than those who just remove the kid, redirect the kid, or if kid is at age of reason talk to kid.

[astrid]

LOL, you might have noticed I said "one of OUR daughters." I have no idea which of our daughters will come home pregnant, nor do you. Point is, THAT would be something to get emotional about. Not the fact that someone here slapped her kid's butt for some childhood offense.

 

Oh, I noticed. And believe me, I"m not emotional about this in the least. As I said, you can go on happily smacking your kid, showing her who's boss, and enforcing your rules. I"ll do the same in the manner that works best for me. For our family, that does not include physical violence.

 

I do, however, have to laugh at the "sources" that have been offered up as supporting arguments for corporal punishment. Not exactly peer-reviewed and statistically solid. But I appreciate the effort.

 

astrid

[astrid]

Seems to me that those who are moved to "slap a kid's butt" get more riled up than those who just remove the kid, redirect the kid, or if kid is at age of reason talk to kid.

 

I agree. With posts that contain phrases like "Only Mommy gets to hit!" I have to wonder, whose emotions are running high?

 

I'm pretty calm when I removed, redirected, or now (at age 14) reason.

 

astrid

[SKL]

Seems to me that those who are moved to "slap a kid's butt" get more riled up than those who just remove the kid, redirect the kid, or if kid is at age of reason talk to kid.

 

I think all parents feel a little "riled up" at their kids at times, but I'm talking about people here getting very upset to the point of having physical pain over the thought that some of us occasionally spank our own kids; or being utterly unable to maintain their composure out of anger that someone dared to write a pro-spanking article. Doesn't seem healthy to me.

[SKL]

Oh, I noticed. And believe me, I"m not emotional about this in the least. As I said, you can go on happily smacking your kid, showing her who's boss, and enforcing your rules. I"ll do the same in the manner that works best for me. For our family, that does not include physical violence.

 

 

astrid

 

I have never suggested that you or anyone else should spank. I think you should do what works best for you, and recognize that what I decide to do in my own home does not concern you. How would you non-spankers like it if I said it made me sick to my stomach, physically ill, angry, etc., that you don't spank? But I wouldn't say that, because I don't feel that way at all. If I was a successful non-spanker, I'd probably be proud of it, too. Proud, but not contemptuous.

[astrid]

I think all parents feel a little "riled up" at their kids at times, but I'm talking about people here getting very upset to the point of having physical pain over the thought that some of us occasionally spank our own kids; or being utterly unable to maintain their composure out of anger that someone dared to write a pro-spanking article. Doesn't seem healthy to me.

 

Well,

a) I think people here, many of whom have experienced abuse at the hands of parents or other caregivers, have very valid feelings of pain when they read of some folks using physical violence as a regular means of discipline. I don't diminish their feelings, and I don't dismiss their opinions.

 

b.) I think you misunderstood, which is entirely possible having only posted less than 30 times on this board. Several posters are not "unable to maintain their composure out of anger that someone dared to write a pro-spanking article." They clearly see through the ridiculous pro-spanking articles from ultra-conservative, non-scholarly sources which were put forth as "proof" that the world has gone to hell in a handbasket because schools, churches, etc. don't spank. Instead of responding, they simply walked away.

 

c.) Perhaps with a few more than 30 posts under your belt, you'll gain a better understanding of conversation here.

 

astrid

[SKL]

LOL, so being awake and alive in the world for 45 years doesn't qualify me to have an opinion, while having spent a certain amount of time on this forum would.

 

I'm sure that in your first 30 posts, there were no opinions expressed out of respect for those senior to you.

[astrid]

I have never suggested that you or anyone else should spank. I think you should do what works best for you, and recognize that what I decide to do in my own home does not concern you. How would you non-spankers like it if I said it made me sick to my stomach, physically ill, angry, etc., that you don't spank? But I wouldn't say that, because I don't feel that way at all. If I was a successful non-spanker, I'd probably be proud of it, too. Proud, but not contemptuous.

 

And I never suggested you shouldn't spank, nor have I accused you of doing the same. Please do not put words in my mouth.

 

Your kids, your methods, your life. Happy happy. I really couldn't care less how you parent. Nor should you care how emotional people get about spanking. You do not know their background. Spanking, and physical violence toward children (as some see spanking) IS an emotional issue. Whether you choose to view it that way or not, the fact remains that we are not trading casserole recipes. We are discussing parenting choices, and the long-term consequences of those choices.

 

You make your choice, I'll make mine.

 

astrid

[SKL]

LOL, so being awake and alive in the world for 45 years doesn't qualify me to have an opinion, while having spent a certain amount of time on this forum would.

 

I'm sure that in your first 30 posts, there were no opinions expressed out of respect for those senior to you.

 

Never mind, I think you were actually trying to be helpful, so I will take back the above.

[Trish]

To sum up the thread, "Please do not verbally spank those who spank."

[Mandy in TN]

So many people when they talk of corporal punishment, talk in extremes and just view it through the lens of their little family unit. As I stated, I don't have the answer, but I know that Lord of the Flies is not the real life story in which I want my children to have a part. This is one of the many reasons why my children are home educated.

What I said, and perhaps this is not everywhere, but here the school system often favors the perpetrator over the safety of the victim. And, there is a difference between through the lens of your little family unit how you choose to discipline your own children at home and debating whether or not you will swat your own child’s behind and dealing with a group of kids that is not yours. The crime rate in my county has increased over 17% in the past 10 years. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know I don’t want my kids in the public school. This is all I meant.

Mandy

[astrid]

LOL, so being awake and alive in the world for 45 years doesn't qualify me to have an opinion, while having spent a certain amount of time on this forum would.

 

I'm sure that in your first 30 posts, there were no opinions expressed out of respect for those senior to you.

 

 

Again, you have missed my point. I said that perhaps with a bit more experience on these boards, you'll come to understand how conversations tend to go here. There is shorthand used here that's unique to the board, and your assumptions about what people are thinking or feeling based on a few words and a smilie in a post may not be what they actually meant.

 

Is your snark really necessary?

 

astrid

[astrid]

Never mind, I think you were actually trying to be helpful, so I will take back the above.

 

Thank you, I was. No worries...... :001_smile:

 

astrid

[SKL]

And I never suggested you shouldn't spank, nor have I accused you of doing the same. Please do not put words in my mouth.

 

Your kids, your methods, your life. Happy happy. I really couldn't care less how you parent. Nor should you care how emotional people get about spanking. You do not know their background. Spanking, and physical violence toward children (as some see spanking) IS an emotional issue. Whether you choose to view it that way or not, the fact remains that we are not trading casserole recipes. We are discussing parenting choices, and the long-term consequences of those choices.

 

You make your choice, I'll make mine.

 

astrid

 

Deal, but please note that I wasn't necessarily talking about "you" [astrid] before you started directly quoting and responding to me. I did not accuse "you" personallly of telling me how to parent. I think you have to admit that "some" commenters here are most certainly trying to convince others not to spank. I was reacting to various people whose comments I found to be over the top.

[astrid]

To sum up the thread, "Please do not verbally spank those who spank."

 

 

:D:iagree::D

Exactly!!

 

And if you're ever tempted to engage in a thread that's titled "treading gently here..." (as close to red blinking warning lights as I've ever seen...) just walk away!! :001_smile:

 

astrid

[justamouse]

Deal, but please note that I wasn't necessarily talking about "you" [astrid] before you started directly quoting and responding to me. I did not accuse "you" personallly of telling me how to parent. I think you have to admit that "some" commenters here are most certainly trying to convince others not to spank. I was reacting to various people whose comments I found to be over the top.

 

Well, that commenter was me. And, having been spanked, and having been physically beaten buy a man to the point of a concussion and him hurting my child, too, yes, when a parent says that they yank down their kids pants and spank them, or that another child got spanked for lying, yes, it makes me physically upset to the point that my hands shake because I cannot, for the life of me, understand inflicting pain on my child like that. I USED to, and then it happened to me.

 

But, like Astrid said, you've 30 posts and don't know us very well yet.

[astrid]

Deal, but please note that I wasn't necessarily talking about "you" [astrid] before you started directly quoting and responding to me. I did not accuse "you" personallly of telling me how to parent. I think you have to admit that "some" commenters here are most certainly trying to convince others not to spank. I was reacting to various people whose comments I found to be over the top.

 

No, you accused those of us who do not spank, as a group, of engaging in what you deem to be unnecessary histrionics. And why did I directly quote you? Two reasons:

 

1. In threads this long, unless I use the "quote" feature, my reply somehow never ends up where I want it to, in the conversation in which I am engaging. Also, I view the forum in the "hybrid" mode, which is most clear to me, and it's hard to keep track of conversations if I view it in another manner.

 

2. Like an a$$, I was hot and tired when I got home from work at 6:00 and I drank a Pepsi Throwback. I knew when I was gulping it down that I shouldn't be drinking the caffeine, and yet I still finished it. There was no one home to take it out of my hand and spank me. :D So I am awake and reading this endless thread, when nearly everyone else has given up on it by virtue of its sheer girth.

 

astrid

[astrid]

Well, that commenter was me. And, having been spanked, and having been physically beaten buy a man to the point of a concussion and him hurting my child, too, yes, when a parent says that they yank down their kids pants and spank them, or that another child got spanked for lying, yes, it makes me physically upset to the point that my hands shake because I cannot, for the life of me, understand inflicting pain on my child like that. I USED to, and then it happened to me.

 

But, like Astrid said, you've 30 posts and don't know us very well yet.

 

Thank you for chiming in, justamouse. That's exactly the point I was trying to make. It's all in the perspective you bring to the issue.

 

:grouphug:

astrid

[Julie Smith]

Although there is probably a very good reason Spanking erotica is right at the top of any Google search on Spanking and goes on for pages.

 

I'd like to know what percentage of spanking fetishes are sparked by childhood spankings. (Not really do I want to know. I don't.)

 

I wonder if there is any research about adults spankers having been spanked as kids...or not. Spanking is such a power play...and add a naked bottom to that...well, it sounds like porn/erotica/whatever. I wonder how many search hits WTM gets on it's spanking children threads.

 

Might be something for the owners to consider.

 

A rhythmic spanking on the bottom causes blood to rush to that area. This is also something that happens when a person becomes aroused. In a female the labia becomes red and swollen with blood, the same way that happens during sexual arousal. A male child can get have the start of a erection. The various feelings of being spanked (shame over doing something bad, power struggles, ...) then can become linked with sexual feelings that by nature are suppose to be pleasant.

 

It is possible that the child on the cusp of puberty when he or she starts feeling sexual urges knows of no other way to deal with them other then reenacting the things that originally brought on sexual feelings, ... Spankings and shame.

 

ETA. Non rhythms spankings, as in a single hit can have the same sort of effect, but have not been studied as widely.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Julie Smith

[SKL]

No, you accused those of us who do not spank, as a group, of engaging in what you deem to be unnecessary histrionics. And why did I directly quote you? Two reasons:

 

astrid

 

No, if you go back and look at what I wrote, I did NOT accuse non-spankers as a group of anything. Not even close. Just like I never accused your daughter of being a slut. Not even close. You are reading too defensively. Can it be denied that some commenters here are especially emotional/sensitive about a subject that most of us consider a relatively simple parenting choice?

 

And by the way, YOU accused ME of slapping my kids around, showing them who is boss, etc., which was not warranted. Because lots of folks on this thread seem to be on your side of the issue, perhaps you think it is OK to say whatever you want to dissenters. It would be like me telling you, personally, that you are raising rotten spoiled brats. Courtesy goes both ways, don't you think?

[Mandy in TN]

FWIW, I never even said that I spank my own kids, but I do. I laugh at moms who try to rationalize with toddlers. In my personal experience, it is by and large ineffective, because toddlers, in general, do not have the ability to follow lengthy if/then statements especially those with outcomes they don’t understand. Swat their butt, hand, mouth, or whatever and keep going. I'm not angry about a toddler running toward the road, continually reaching for the hot stove, or biting. I simply don't want them hurt or hurting others.

 

A spanking should be a consequence that a toddler understands and dislikes. Toddlers don't understand the whole discussion of burns if they have never been burned. Toddlers do understand that if they reach for the stove their hand gets swatted. Then, they don't reach for the stove. An older toddler should exhibit remorse for biting a friend and making that friend cry. Swatting did the trick with mine. Swatting was typically the most effective and easiest way to bring about the desired result in my toddlers. If it doesn't have the desired result of deterrence or remorse, by all means, change to something else. Once a swat brings on anger or laughter, there is no point in continuing to swat.

 

If there isn't concern for serious physical injury or destruction of property, in general, I am all for letting nature take its course to the natural consequence. If a child is capable of following an if/then statement, I am all for pointing out the inappropriate behavior, explaining what will be expected in the future, and handing down consequences. I am all for tomato staking not as a punishment, but to allow me to model and discuss on the fly if behaviors have gotten out of hand. Tomato staking should be quality time spent continually engaging.

 

Aside from trying to "discuss" behavior with toddlers, the single silliest thing I have ever heard of is time-out as punishment. A defiant child, understanding that there is no real consequence, will just leave. Then, you are in a battle of wills with a child. None of my boys saw time-out as a punishment and I can’t blame them- frankly neither would I.

 

OTOH- I did use my middle ds’s room as his safe place. If he was out of control, I would tell him to go to his room until he was ready to rejoin us. He wasn’t a toddler and this wasn’t time out. He needed to learn that anger was a legitimate emotion, but vomiting that emotion all over others was inappropriate. I never set a time limit. I just let him learn when he was ready. This was something we discussed and decided upon when he wasn’t angry.

 

I do not reward undesired behavior with lengthy amounts of my time. I only give these things the least amount of attention necessary to keep moving forward. A reward of time can be just the encouragement a child needs to keep reproducing the behavior. Instead in word and deed I try to focus on and spend my time promoting appropriate behavior.

 

Training in appropriate behavior has worked far better for me than disciplining inappropriate behavior. This is what works in my home. Frankly, within the law, I don’t care what you use in yours unless you are asking me to step in.

 

FWIW- my 17yo and 20yo agree with my views on discipline. The 17yo said that spare the rod and spoil the child doesn’t mean you literally use a rod, but it doesn’t make the statement any less true. My 20yo said he doesn’t think I discipline enough and would be all for me swatting the 8yo more often. :tongue_smilie: At any rate, neither of them was traumatized by my swatting them.

 

Mandy

Edited August 23, 2011 by Mandy in TN

[justamouse]

No, if you go back and look at what I wrote, I did NOT accuse non-spankers as a group of anything. Not even close. Just like I never accused your daughter of being a slut. Not even close. You are reading too defensively. Can it be denied that some commenters here are especially emotional/sensitive about a subject that most of us consider a relatively simple parenting choice?

 

And by the way, YOU accused ME of slapping my kids around, showing them who is boss, etc., which was not warranted. Because lots of folks on this thread seem to be on your side of the issue, perhaps you think it is OK to say whatever you want to dissenters. It would be like me telling you, personally, that you are raising rotten spoiled brats. Courtesy goes both ways, don't you think?

 

It is NOT a simple parenting choice, people who are defensive say things like that.

 

You are new here, have posted the most on THIS thread and you dodged one of my previous questions to you on another thread.

 

You stated your children were in preschool and you were a work at home mom. You don't have anything about homeschooling in a sig, ARE you homeschooling at all? Looking to? Thinking about it? Because you're not asking questions about it and posting a lot in the parenting threads.

[Joanne]

FWIW, I never even said that I spank my own kids, but I do. I laugh at moms who try to rationalize with toddlers. In my personal experience, it is by and large ineffective, because toddlers, in general, do not have the ability to follow lengthy if/then statements especially those with outcomes they don’t understand. Swat their butt, hand, mouth, or whatever and keep going. I'm not angry about a toddler running toward the road, continually reaching for the hot stove, or biting. I simply don't want them hurt or hurting others.

 

:confused: Who is suggesting "rationalizing" with toddlers? Why do you present a false dichotomy: spank or ineffective discipline?

 

Those aren't the only choices.

 

A spanking should be a consequence that a toddler understands and dislikes. Toddlers don't understand the whole discussion of burns if they have never been burned. Toddlers do understand that if they reach for the stove their hand gets swatted. Then, they don't reach for the stove. An older toddler should exhibit remorse for biting a friend and making that friend cry. Swatting did the trick with mine. Swatting was typically the most effective and easiest way to bring about the desired result in my toddlers. If it doesn't have the desired result of deterrence or remorse, by all means, change to something else. Once a swat brings on anger or laughter, there is no point in continuing to swat.

 

From a developmental standpoint, I wholeheartedly disagree with spanking in an effort to keep a toddler safe. If you have a child small enough that stove, road, outlet safety is an issue, the responsibility of safety belongs to the caregiver/parent. You can't punish a child into a more mature stage of development.

 

I do not automatically equate spanking with abuse, but I do think frequent spanking (where spanking is the first discipline response) is abusive.

 

 

Aside from trying to "discuss" behavior with toddlers, the single silliest thing I have ever heard of is time-out as punishment. A defiant child, understanding that there is no real consequence, will just leave. Then, you are in a battle of wills with a child. None of my boys saw time-out as a punishment and I can’t blame them- frankly neither would I.

 

Again, this is a false dichotomy. In addition, many posters here don't "not spank" but use time out as an alternative. Many posters in this thread have a completely different paradigm about the parent/child relationship and role of punishment altogether.

 

I typically don't need children in my care to see anything "as a punishment" in order to have effective discipline.

 

 

FWIW- my 17yo and 20yo agree with my views on discipline. The 17yo said that spare the rod and spoil the child doesn’t mean you literally use a rod, but it doesn’t make the statement any less true. My 20yo said he doesn’t think I discipline enough and would be all for me swatting the 8yo more often. :tongue_smilie: At any rate, neither of them was traumatized by my swatting them.

 

Mandy

 

You *do* know that the bold "quote" is not from the Bible but a poem written by Samuel Butler intended to mock the Puritan's harsh child rearing method?

 

And I don't value parenting advice from 17 and 20 year olds. :)

[SKL]

 

You stated your children were in preschool and you were a work at home mom. You don't have anything about homeschooling in a sig, ARE you homeschooling at all? Looking to? Thinking about it? Because you're not asking questions about it and posting a lot in the parenting threads.

 

Actually, I am new here and have not made a signature. I have in fact started several threads as I am planning to begin homeschooling / afterschooling my daughter this month, with the ultimate goal of accelerating her at school (as a single mom, I do not have the option of homeschooling full-time). I posted questions in the K-8 curriculum sub-forum, the accelerated learner sub-forum, and the afterschooling sub-forum.

 

Naturally this thread has generated lots of responses, and it just so happens that it was started around the time I started being active here. I certainly did not come to this site to start trolling spanking threads, if that's what you want to know. Most likely I won't bite on any future spanking threads, at least for a while.

 

You are right, I am a bit defensive when someone accuses me of ruining my children's lives every time I tap their bottoms. I'm sorry that this became a hot button for you as a result of someone doing something terrible to you and yours. By the way, my comment was not directed to you alone. There are others here who are making my occasional butt-tapping sound like a national tragedy. It does bring up an image of a culture of folks being overly dramatic about discipline, which I think reduces the positive effect of discipline, whether said discipline is physical or not.

 

Since you mention asking me a question which I previously dodged (because I knew it would not bring closure to anything), let me ask you a question. Why do you believe that repeatedly questioning parents' wisdom in a forum such as this will help in any way? Please don't take this negatively; I mean it in the same spirit you mean your questions.

[LibraryLover]

:confused:

 

 

Again, this is a false dichotomy. In addition, many posters here don't "not spank" but use time out as an alternative. Many posters in this thread have a completely different paradigm about the parent/child relationship and role of punishment altogether.

 

 

And I don't value parenting advice from 17 and 2:)0 year olds.

 

 

Yes. I don't spank, I don't much use time out, and I don't 'rationalize' with toddlers. I do remove, I do redirect, I do say, "Hot!" "Danger!" I do model. "Gentle touching" etc.

 

My teens would would never consider that striking a baby as being helpful or good for a baby. I personally would trust them to care well for a child who needs to learn about the world. I would expect them to handle a child kindly. My 12 yr old is very good at communicating with her little cousin, fi. She knows he's not trying to be 'bad". She knows he doesn't have a lot of experience with worldly situations. She knows he needs guidance and redirection more than he needs to be hit.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mandy in TN]

:confused: Who is suggesting "rationalizing" with toddlers? Why do you present a false dichotomy: spank or ineffective discipline?

 

Those aren't the only choices.

I never said they were.

 

From a developmental standpoint, I wholeheartedly disagree with spanking in an effort to keep a toddler safe. If you have a child small enough that stove, road, outlet safety is an issue, the responsibility of safety belongs to the caregiver/parent. You can't punish a child into a more mature stage of development.

 

I do not automatically equate spanking with abuse, but I do think frequent spanking (where spanking is the first discipline response) is abusive.

A little child may insist on trying to touch and run. A little stinker of a child will wiggle out of child restraints, jump out of shopping carts onto his head, and climb like a mountain goat. A little defiant stinker of a child will insist on messing with outlets even after being shocked in the past. ;) Swatting is what worked.

 

Again, this is a false dichotomy. In addition, many posters here don't "not spank" but use time out as an alternative. Many posters in this thread have a completely different paradigm about the parent/child relationship and role of punishment altogether.

I never said that these were the only two options. I simply said that time-out didn't work at all with my boys.

 

I typically don't need children in my care to see anything "as a punishment" in order to have effective discipline.

Like I said the most effective thing in my home has been training in appropriate behavior rather than disciplining inappropriate behavior.

 

You *do* know that the bold "quote" is not from the Bible but a poem written by Samuel Butler intended to mock the Puritan's harsh child rearing method?

 

And I don't value parenting advice from 17 and 20 year olds. :)

I was showing their lack of trauma not their parenting advice.

 

As I am culturally Christian and dh is culturally Muslim and as ds was not raised in organized religion, I'm sure that my 17yo was simply repeating something he heard somewhere.

 

And my 20yo obviously just thought he was being funny.

[BakersDozen]

MandyinTN - Rather than quoting your entire post and lamely putting this after every section :iagree: may I just say thank you SO much for posting what you did. Wonderfully put and I couldn't agree more. :)

 

And fwiw, I value very much the input my older dc give as to discipline/punishment; my dc are brutally honest (as are most dc) and if they felt traumatized or that the way they were punished was wrong you can be sure they would let me know. ;)

[justamouse]

Since you mention asking me a question which I previously dodged (because I knew it would not bring closure to anything), let me ask you a question. Why do you believe that repeatedly questioning parents' wisdom in a forum such as this will help in any way? Please don't take this negatively; I mean it in the same spirit you mean your questions.

 

Because I've been here a while. We like a good discussion, and if you have holes in your argument, another person will poke them and show you the leap in your logic or the flaw in your theory. I try and do it in a not so aggressive manner.

 

I also know that there are moms reading these spanking thread who want to move away from spanking, and don't know how. And so I press on.

[SKL]

...you dodged one of my previous questions to you on another thread.

 

 

I am at a loss to find which previous question you are talking about. I looked back at your posts (as "justamouse") since I started posting here. Somebody did ask me a series of questions regarding why I think spanking is effective and what I spank for, and when I saw your comment quoted above, I assumed you were talking about that. No idea now whether you are the same person who asked me (and others) that series of questions. If not, I apologize for my comment about your questions in my most recent past post. Perhaps they were mostly someone else's questions.

[LibraryLover]

I might not agree that trying to rationalize with an 18 mos old is super-effective in most cases, but I wouldn't laugh at a parenting trying not to hit. I don't see the danger in trying to talk with a toddler. It's a beginning, and I know lots of very verbal children who do seem to understand certain things. It might not work for al kids, but ime, a parent who talks also tends towards alternatives (redirection, a nap ;)) beyond spanking. Sometimes new and eager parents talk a lot (too much?) to small children -- and those littles might not 'get it ' all, but I don't think hitting ensures the child gets it, either.

 

 

I'd rather hear a parent gently talking than the sound of a smack on tender baby skin. Where I live, I do see parents trying to communicate with small children. "I know you're tired, but it's time to go." I don't think that's rationalizing, but others might. I do know that some people would smack a tired child's bottom saying "You're being a bad girl, now we have to go home!" I'd rather hear the chit chat about going home than see the hand come down on the poor tot. I know some would see that as permissive parenting.

 

 

FWIW, I never even said that I spank my own kids, but I do. I laugh at moms who try to rationalize with toddlers. In my personal experience, it is by and large ineffective,

 

Mandy

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

I am at a loss to find which previous question you are talking about.

 

It was in another thread. I had just asked the same questions I asked previously. No worries.

[Joanne]

A little child may insist on trying to touch and run. A little stinker of a child will wiggle out of child restraints, jump out of shopping carts onto his head, and climb like a mountain goat. A little defiant stinker of a child will insist on messing with outlets even after being shocked in the past. ;) Swatting is what worked.

 

 

 

"Little stinker", "defiant stinker" are not labels through which I identify, describe, and understand even challenging childhood behavior.

 

It sounds like you had a spirited little person - in spite of spanking, clearly your child presented discipline challenges.

 

Not because you spanked. But because that is what spirited children *do*.

Spanking (or other punishment) is what parents do until the child outgrows that particular behavior.

[LibraryLover]

"Little stinker", "defiant stinker" are not labels through which I identify, describe, and understand even challenging childhood behavior.

 

It sounds like you had a spirited little person - in spite of spanking, clearly your child presented discipline challenges.

 

Not because you spanked. But because that is what spirited children *do*.

Spanking (or other punishment) is what parents do until the child outgrows that particular behavior.

 

 

While it may fall on deaf ears, it must be said again and again. Plenty of us have had spirtied children-- and we did not spank.

 

And even as older teens and adults, they are not in prison. :) Some people might spank spirited children, but many of us have found it was not necessary to do so.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mandy in TN]

"Little stinker", "defiant stinker" are not labels through which I identify, describe, and understand even challenging childhood behavior.

 

It sounds like you had a spirited little person - in spite of spanking, clearly your child presented discipline challenges.

 

Not because you spanked. But because that is what spirited children *do*.

Spanking (or other punishment) is what parents do until the child outgrows that particular behavior.

:lol::lol::lol:

Entertaining. One could also say that the swatting reduced the attractiveness of the inappropriate behavior. Just for the record, he may have been an active, challenging toddler, but he has been an easier teen than my oldest who was an angel of a toddler. I would say that all the training and swatting also meant that he spent a lot of time staked to my side and it paid off in the end. I have no regrets in this regard.

 

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

I'd rather hear a parent gently talking than the sound of a smack on tender baby skin. Where I live, I do see parents trying to communicate with small children. "I know you're tired, but it's time to go." I don't think that's rationalizing, but others might. I do know that some people would smack a tired child's bottom saying "You're being a bad girl, now we have to go home!" I'd rather hear the chit chat about going home than see the hand come down on the poor tot. I know some would see that as permissive parenting.

If they are going to kick and scream and cry anyway, how about another option. Don't talk. They can't hear you. Don't swat. They are already upset and for cryin' out loud (I couldn't resist) no one is in danger. Just pick them up and leave.

LOL-

Mandy

[LibraryLover]

:lol::lol::lol:

Entertaining. One could also say that the swatting reduced the attractiveness of the inappropriate behavior. Just for the record, he may have been an active, challenging toddler, but he has been an easier teen than my oldest who was an angel of a toddler. I would say that all the training and swatting also meant that he spent a lot of time staked to my side and it paid off in the end. I have no regrets in this regard.

 

Mandy

 

 

Many of us non -spankers have no regrets. Might you curb your amusement long enough to realize that some of us have raised our challenging children to responsible young adulthood without having hit them?

 

I'm not laughing at your posts, btw, even as I disagree with you.

[Joanne]

:lol::lol::lol:

Entertaining.

 

 

 

Really? I didn't think we were having a conversation in which we are disrespectful to each other's viewpoint.

 

I've tried to be respectful and kind each time I posted in response to your posts.

 

 

One could also say that the swatting reduced the attractiveness of the inappropriate behavior. Just for the record, he may have been an active, challenging toddler, but he has been an easier teen than my oldest who was an angel of a toddler. I would say that all the training and swatting also meant that he spent a lot of time staked to my side and it paid off in the end. I have no regrets in this regard.

 

Mandy

 

Yes, it's clear you believe in the choices you've made.

 

I agree spanking can "work". If by "work", you mean reduction in undesired behavior. I have a different approach to my parenting and discipline choices.

 

I'll not laugh at yours.

[LibraryLover]

If they are going to kick and scream and cry anyway, how about another option. Don't talk. They can't hear you. Don't swat. They are already upset and for cryin' out loud (I couldn't resist) no one is in danger. Just pick them up and leave.

LOL-

Mandy

 

 

Why does it bother you if they try to comfort their child? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mandy in TN]

MandyinTN - Rather than quoting your entire post and lamely putting this after every section :iagree: may I just say thank you SO much for posting what you did. Wonderfully put and I couldn't agree more. :)

 

And fwiw, I value very much the input my older dc give as to discipline/punishment; my dc are brutally honest (as are most dc) and if they felt traumatized or that the way they were punished was wrong you can be sure they would let me know. ;)

Thanks. I know that I don't always get it right, but when I don't my kids always let me know.

Mandy

[Embassy]

I'd rather hear a parent gently talking than the sound of a smack on tender baby skin. Where I live, I do see parents trying to communicate with small children. "I know you're tired, but it's time to go." I don't think that's rationalizing, but others might. I do know that some people would smack a tired child's bottom saying "You're being a bad girl, now we have to go home!" I'd rather hear the chit chat about going home than see the hand come down on the poor tot. I know some would see that as permissive parenting.

 

:iagree: Talking to toddlers about no-nos are important, IMHO. I want them to understand why they should not go near the stove and not just stay away because they are afraid of a spanking. There is no substitution for supervision though.

 

Sometimes I think talking/rationalizing/redirecting a toddler is an art form. It isn't easy, but it works. Sometimes doing something silly will change whining or crying into giggles. Sometimes little ones just need a hug when they are feeling bad. Adults do. I've been training my older son how to negotiate with my 3 year old. He is starting to get good at it and it can get quite funny. Did I mention that I have a very strong willed little girl? I love that. Yesterday he wanted to sit in a certain spot where my little girl was sitting so he moved another chair in the room and talked about how great the chair was. It wasn't long until my little girl wanted his chair and he was able to sit in the spot he wanted.

 

BTW, I'm not permissive at all. My kids would agree with that:tongue_smilie:

[Mandy in TN]

 

 

 

Really? I didn't think we were having a conversation in which we are disrespectful to each other's viewpoint.

 

I've tried to be respectful and kind each time I posted in response to your posts.

I'm sorry. I really wasn't laughing in disrespect. I though we were both laughing.

[*Lulu*]

It falls on deaf ears, but it must be said again and again. Plenty of us have had spirtied children-- and we did not spank.

 

And even as older teens and adults, they are not in prison. :) Some people might spank spirited children, but many of us have found it was not necessary to do so.

 

:iagree: I'd take it a step further and say that it can be counterproductive to do so.

 

FTR- we have spanked, and I would not say it is totally off the table, (although I lean more that way with each passing year), but it was/is an ineffectual tool with our high spirited ones.

[Embassy]

If they are going to kick and scream and cry anyway, how about another option. Don't talk. They can't hear you. Don't swat. They are already upset and for cryin' out loud (I couldn't resist) no one is in danger. Just pick them up and leave.

LOL-

Mandy

 

IMO, words of comfort can be heard in actions - in vibrations. A child knows the difference between words of comfort and silence.

[Mandy in TN]

Why does it bother you if they try to comfort their child? You seem to have a large chip on your shoulder.

As I have said, I don't care what others do. Really, I don't. I was only offering a third option. Yeah, it is probably the one I would use in that situation, because I just don't see the point in talking to a screaming child. Giving positive reinforcement for bad behavior just isn't my thing. But, honestly <shrug> I really don't care if someone else does.

Mandy

[justamouse]

This is from a Catholic Parenting book, and even if you hate Catholicism and think it's all things Antichrist, perhaps you can reframe that into thinking that God even used an ass to speak...

 

Pg 40 of Parenting with Grace (The Catholic Parent's Guide to Raising Almost Perfect Kids) by Gregory K Popcak PhD and Lisa Popcak.

 

"And how am I exactly supposed to complete this mission?" you ask? Well, the church tells us that the secret to parenting success is building deeply intimate, character affirming, godly relationships with our children, what the Church calls a 'Civilization of love," that will ultimately transform the world by its powerful example. Put simply, everything in parenting depends upon creating the kind of attachment at every age and stage that makes your children want to look more like you than they do their peers. That is what 'discipline' means. Without that level of attachment, all of the best discipline strategies in the world will fail to give you the results you want--the results God and His Church demand.

 

The Parent Child Rapport Ratio

 

Studies have shown that marriages that do not maintain a minimum of 'positivity-to-negativity ratio' of 5:1 (and subsequent research shows that the strongest couples maintain a 20:1 ratio) are in danger of divorcing within the first five years. In other words, unless a couple is at least five times more complimentary, affectionate, supportive, and encouraging as they are critical, nagging, and confrontational, their rapport will deteriorate until it ceases to exist. Additionally, we have found that unless parents and children maintain a similar minimum of 5:1 positivity-to-negativity ratio in their relationships with each other (and preferably a 20:1 positivity-to-negativity ratio), yelling and defensiveness increases, discipline breaks down, and all hell breaks loose.

 

my bold

 

He then defines the differences between discipline and punishment, and goes on to say on pg 61

 

Parents with a punitive mindset tend to define their primary job as 'stopping bad behavior." Such parents---though well intentioned--find themselves spending significantly less time teaching their children Christian virtues, self-control, and appropriate behavior than they spend trying to come up with ever-more-creative punishments to get their children to stop behaving badly. Researchers at the Yale Child Study Center note that the more parents use punishments (such as yelling, spanking, inconsistent/improper time-outs, rash consequences), the more the need to punish, because children become less compliant in response to punishment. Similarly, a recent Duke University study demonstrated that the more frequently children were exposed to the kinds of punitive discipline strategies listed above (especially physical correction), the more likely they were to develop serious behavior problems in adolescence such as Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder.

 

Another problem with parents who rely too heavily on punishments is that they are forced to obsessively seek out more and more creative ways to shield their children from the world, often suffocating them in the process.

Edited August 23, 2011 by justamouse
wayward punctuation

[LibraryLover]

As I have said, I don't care what others do. Really, I don't. I was only offering a third option. Yeah, it is probably the one I would use in that situation, because I just don't see the point in talking to a screaming child. Giving positive reinforcement for bad behavior just isn't my thing. But, honestly <shrug> I really don't care if someone else does.

Mandy

 

 

You know. ;) I was going to apologize for the chip/shoulder comment, but then you said this, and I realize that we aren't even speaking the same language.

 

I really *do* think you're a bit cranky on this whole subject, and I do think you care what other people do. I admit I would rather hear a parent comfort a child than smack one, and I do admit it bothers me when people think little children are being bad when they are simply being little children who need an adult to help guide without inflicting pain.

 

If you see comforting a child as a reward for 'bad' behavoir, we don't even have a 'home base' from which to communicate.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mandy in TN]

Training in appropriate behavior has worked far better for me than disciplining inappropriate behavior. This is what works in my home.

 

Parents with a punitive mindset tend to define their primary job as 'stopping bad behavior." Such parents---though well intentioned--find themselves spending significantly less time teaching their children Christian virtues, self-control, and appropriate behavior than they spend trying to come up with ever-more-creative punishments to get their children to stop behaving badly. Researchers at the Yale Child Study Center note that the more parents use punishments (such as yelling, spanking, inconsistent/improper time-outs, rash consequences), the more the need to punish, because children become less compliant in response to punishment. Similarly, a recent Duke University study demonstrated that the more frequently children were exposed to the kinds of punitive discipline strategies listed above (especially physical correction), the more likely they were to develop serious behavior problems in adolescence such as Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder.

 

I totally, totally agree with this and I am not Catholic!:)

Thanks-

Mandy

[LibraryLover]

This is from a Catholic Parenting book, and even if you hate Catholicism and think it's all things Antichrist, perhaps you can reframe that into thinking that God even used an ass to speak...

 

Pg 40 of Parenting with Grace (The Catholic Parent's Guide to Raising Almost Perfect Kids) by Gregory K Popcak PhD and Lisa Popcak.

 

my bold

 

He then defines the differences between discipline and punishment, and goes on to say on pg 61

 

 

That's heartening. :) I like it.

 

not that I think little kids need to be even almost perfect. :) They don't. :) But I know you know I know you know. lol

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mandy in TN]

You know. ;) I was going to apologize for the chip/shoulder comment, but then you said this, and I realize that we aren't even speaking the same language.

 

I really *do* think you're a bit cranky on this whole subject, and I do think you care what other people do. I admit I would rather hear a parent comfort a child than smack one, and I do admit it bothers me when people think little children are being bad when they are simply being little children who need an adult to help guide without inflicting pain.

 

If you see comforting a child as a reward for 'bad' behavoir, we don't even have a 'home base' from which to communicate.

<puzzled> Maybe we are not envisioning the same child. I am envisioning a child who is screaming and crying to stay essentially throwing a tantrum after a parent has said that it is time to go.

 

Is that what you see?

 

If the child was physically hurt or had a legitimate emotional upset (for a little child this could be as simple as dropping an ice cream), then I would certainly give comfort.

 

However, this is a situation where I see a child displaying behavior that I wouldn't want her to repeat- behavior that is inappropriate. Since I don't want the behavior repeated, I give it the least amount of attention possible. This situation requires almost no attention as no one is at risk of injury.

 

Mandy

[renmew]

What I said, and perhaps this is not everywhere, but here the school system often favors the perpetrator over the safety of the victim. And, there is a difference between through the lens of your little family unit how you choose to discipline your own children at home and debating whether or not you will swat your own child’s behind and dealing with a group of kids that is not yours. The crime rate in my county has increased over 17% in the past 10 years. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know I don’t want my kids in the public school. This is all I meant.

Mandy

 

 

I have worked in public schools for over a decade and I have seen what I think she is talking about. When a child hits or shoves other students repeatedly, to be a bully and not as self-defense, that child is given lots of positive reinforcement. Children are not dumb - they see that only the "bad" ones get the treats. These are the kids who get the reward charts and daily/weekly prizes. What about the good kids, or even the victim? If a child has been bullied repeatedly in Los Angeles schools, and one day snaps and actually physically defends themselves, THEY are punished. They don't get the reward chart u til they become serial abusers of other students.

 

As a teacher, what AM I to do? Luckily, at my school, I can bench a student who hurts others during recess. But, 9/10 times, I have to argue with a parent about why this isn't fair for their child, to miss play time, when they obviously need the outlet and exercise. But what about the victims? Is it okay they are almost daily punching bags, because I can only reason with their abusers? I have had multiple students lose all preferred activities at school and home for months and STILL continue to hurt other students every chance they got. And not one of them, and I believe me, I asked, was ever spanked.

 

I do spank, but I do not like it. But, when my oldest is beginning a tantrum, a swift slap to his rear will bring him out of his rage better than 3+ hours of reasoning, smashed doors, and a tossed room. I don't like it, but he is a happier child much sooner with the spanking than otherwise.

Edited August 23, 2011 by renmew