treading gently here...

[Ginevra]

:confused: Who is suggesting "rationalizing" with toddlers? Why do you present a false dichotomy: spank or ineffective discipline?

 

Those aren't the only choices.

 

 

 

From a developmental standpoint, I wholeheartedly disagree with spanking in an effort to keep a toddler safe. If you have a child small enough that stove, road, outlet safety is an issue, the responsibility of safety belongs to the caregiver/parent. You can't punish a child into a more mature stage of development.

 

I do not automatically equate spanking with abuse, but I do think frequent spanking (where spanking is the first discipline response) is abusive.

 

 

 

 

Again, this is a false dichotomy. In addition, many posters here don't "not spank" but use time out as an alternative. Many posters in this thread have a completely different paradigm about the parent/child relationship and role of punishment altogether.

 

I typically don't need children in my care to see anything "as a punishment" in order to have effective discipline.

 

 

 

 

You *do* know that the bold "quote" is not from the Bible but a poem written by Samuel Butler intended to mock the Puritan's harsh child rearing method?

 

And I don't value parenting advice from 17 and 20 year olds. :)

 

Sorry - I left off reading on page 28 and want to comment.

 

I agree with Joanne's assessment of Mandy's post.

 

The "running in the street" argument seems to be the de facto example given by ever parent who chooses spanking. Maybe it's because I live in a semi-rural area, but I don't get this. I trained my little ones to hold my hand. Even my maddeningly challenging child was required to hold my hand. It was a fact. There was no need to spank over it.

 

And - I'm sorry I keep harping on this fact - but if you are building the relationship with your child, they learn to trust you have their back. As they are assured that you are always protecting them from physical harm (not delivering it!), they trust you when you warn, "NO! That is HOT! It will hurt you!" They stop at least long enough to redirect them elsewhere.

 

I have seen strings of preschoolers walking in a parking lot up near a daycare center that is located in a strip mall where I shop. They walk along, holding the ring-line. One caregiver at the lead, several kids walking along in the middle and one or two caregivers at the tail. Now - how is this possible, given it is illegal to spank them? How can this be, as surely there must be one or two challenging children in every daycare class?

 

They do it because they were effectively trained to do it. I've never seen 3 caregivers pulling their hair out because the kids are running all over. They walk on that line without incident.

 

As Joanne has given care to "other people's kids" for many years, some of them children with extreme needs, it's clear to me that she knows children can be trained and directed without spanking. It's clear that she is confident it can be done with any and all children, not just the easy-peasy ones.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Quill
didn't mean to quote Cheryl right now

[kalanamak]

Of course, SOME kids continue to act defiantly after being spanked, so for them, spanking is not the consequence one should use. You have to find every child's currency, but it is vital to find what communicates meaningful consequence to the child.

 

 

My son wasn't that willful, but there were a couple incidents of escalating stubbornness that made me a bit worried. I even posted here asking what to do. I stumbled into the "cure" (which I noted in the same thread and was wished luck in finding a less punitive punishment, :lol:): in desperation, we shut kiddo in his room for 20 minutes just so his father and I could have a talk. We weren't thinking "time out", we were thinking "he shouldn't hear our disagreements on how to handle this". I think he was 4 at the time, and we ended up doing twice, and both times that child (who had been quiet in his room) walked out a changed boy.

Edited August 23, 2011 by kalanamak

[kalanamak]

Really? This is a big assumption. I don't know how you and your kids can tell who is spanked and who isn't. And I think there are a lot of factors that go into someone's attitude, behavior, etc.; why do you think spanking is the only one that counts? And if most people were spanked in earlier generations, why was there crime, unhappiness, etc.?

 

Wendi

 

But ... she said spanked or OTHERWISE properly disciplined, and that I agree with entirely. The other verbiage covered this important point up. The key is properly disciplined. Some kids (and the adults they become) will have issues no matter what, but a general teaching of manners improves the vast majority of children.

 

(That said, I recall a fairly recent conversation with a mother of a severely mentally ill person who is angry, threatening and loud. This poor woman was desperate for me to know her daughter had a good upbringing and was a good student and a happy child. Desperate. It was rather heartbreaking.)

[LisaKinVA]

LisaK, I probably should have emailed this, but...

 

(note: I have read pieces of this thread; not all of it).

 

Does your ds have any issue such as Aspergers or maybe a shadow syndrome of a spectrum disorder?

Does he or did he have any real medical issues?

Is he biologically yours? Any prenatal, birth, or newborn trauma?

Could he have been extra sensitive so harmed by more typical methods as a little guy?

 

Even if not, you might look at Beyond Consequences, Logic, and Control just because you haven't been able to reach him otherwise. It is generally a good help for parents of kids with severe behaviors, often due to trauma. However, I had an EXTREMELY challenging biological kid myself. I wish I had known about BCLC then (though I wonder if I would have kept reading it through all the trauma stuff...I may just not have been ready back then).

 

I did change to nonpunitive discipline because I needed something better. We used a reward chart twice ever so don't think we went that direction. We simply used strong, consistent, teaching-based discipline. I just think the extra step of BCLC, the primary focus, would have helped us.

 

Only you know if you are there. But lying is one of the key issues the parenting deals with.

 

Anyway, none of the questions above are needing to be answered. They were things that could possibly cause a child to seem less responsive to typical, even good, discipline.

 

We had a full evaluation of ds when he was 5 at Johns Hopkins. No traumas, no psych issues, no medical issues.

 

No issues raised red flags, other than fine motor development. He is challenging for two major reasons (1) he hates to fail, so why try and (2) if it's not important to him, he just won't do it (like learning math facts). All of this plays into how we discipline him, as well as teach him. This is the child that I should have a PhD in Psychology for... not my barely scratch the surface stuff. :tongue_smilie:

 

We are always coaching him on the failing part... it's finding the triggers that make things "important" that have been difficult. With math facts, I just let it go. I didn't fuss about it, and eventually he hated spending so much time doing Pre-Algebra trying to calculate basic operations, that he nailed them in a few days. But, for the sneaky/deceitful stuff...that's where we've had the issue. After we get moved, and get settled, I'll look for the book you mentioned. Thanks.

[texasmama]

Interesting discussion, as always.;)

 

I observe people assigning causality where none exists and using facts which are not facts to justify their parenting choices and to assert their parenting choices as preferable to other people's. The illogic disturbs me.

 

Again, as I and other posters have stated, if it is possible to rear/discipline/train children to have appropriate behavior without using corporal punishment, why would parents not do this? Do people who use spanking as a major tool in their parenting toolbox believe it is not possible? Seriously, I wonder.

 

When I was a spanker in the past, I did so because I considered it a legitimate discipline option, because it was fast and easy, because there was a great deal of pressure to do so by family and church community, and because I didn't know what else to do. I also suffered from the fear that if I didn't use all of my power as a parent to change what was mostly developmentally appropriate behavior, my children would be ill-behaved misfit felons later in life. I understand now that that was a false belief. My children have mostly matured out of the behaviors which I found bothersome. That was the gift of knowledge which my oldest child bestowed on me. I learned that she grew up, matured, changed, and that her behavior at the age of 3, 6 and 10 did not predict who she is at 16.

[8circles]

Interesting discussion, as always.;)

 

I observe people assigning causality where none exists and using facts which are not facts to justify their parenting choices and to assert their parenting choices as preferable to other people's. The illogic disturbs me.

 

Again, as I and other posters have stated, if it is possible to rear/discipline/train children to have appropriate behavior without using corporal punishment, why would parents not do this? Do people who use spanking as a major tool in their parenting toolbox believe it is not possible? Seriously, I wonder.

 

When I was a spanker in the past, I did so because I considered it a legitimate discipline option, because it was fast and easy, because there was a great deal of pressure to do so by family and church community, and because I didn't know what else to do. I also suffered from the fear that if I didn't use all of my power as a parent to change what was mostly developmentally appropriate behavior, my children would be ill-behaved misfit felons later in life. I understand now that that was a false belief. My children have mostly matured out of the behaviors which I found bothersome. That was the gift of knowledge which my oldest child bestowed on me. I learned that she grew up, matured, changed, and that her behavior at the age of 3, 6 and 10 did not predict who she is at 16.

:iagree:

 

Some thoughts I've had while reading the last few pages:

- No matter what discipline technique you use, you will not produce children who don't misbehave.

 

- When I speak to my toddler instead of spanking (swatting, poping, insert your word of choice) I'm not "rationalizing" with them. I'm teaching them language, behavior, relationship all in one. Just like repeatedly pointing to his nose & saying "nose" & pointing to me & saying "mama". It takes more work to do this than spanking & the results may not be as short-term evident but it is well worth it.

[justamouse]

That's heartening. :) I like it.

 

not that I think little kids need to be even almost perfect. :) They don't. :) But I know you know I know you know. lol

 

I think it's a tongue in cheek title. :001_smile:

[Ginevra]

Interesting discussion, as always.;)

 

I observe people assigning causality where none exists and using facts which are not facts to justify their parenting choices and to assert their parenting choices as preferable to other people's. The illogic disturbs me.

 

Again, as I and other posters have stated, if it is possible to rear/discipline/train children to have appropriate behavior without using corporal punishment, why would parents not do this? Do people who use spanking as a major tool in their parenting toolbox believe it is not possible? Seriously, I wonder.

 

When I was a spanker in the past, I did so because I considered it a legitimate discipline option, because it was fast and easy, because there was a great deal of pressure to do so by family and church community, and because I didn't know what else to do. I also suffered from the fear that if I didn't use all of my power as a parent to change what was mostly developmentally appropriate behavior, my children would be ill-behaved misfit felons later in life. I understand now that that was a false belief. My children have mostly matured out of the behaviors which I found bothersome. That was the gift of knowledge which my oldest child bestowed on me. I learned that she grew up, matured, changed, and that her behavior at the age of 3, 6 and 10 did not predict who she is at 16.

 

:iagree: This was so true for me, too. At the time, I was afraid that if I didn't get a firm handle on this behavior right this minute, I was being lax or making excuses that I would later regret.

[twoforjoy]

When I see some of the over-emotional reactions to simple spanking like I see on this thread, I can't help but wonder. Do these folks subject their kids to this kind of drama? A spank on the butt (with an open palm) is really no big deal, unless the child has some emotional issue already.

 

I don't think it's really for us to judge another person's emotional responses. For me, spanking was VERY emotional. I don't think I ever spanked DS without crying afterwards and feeling terribly, terribly guilty. I had very strong convictions that spanking was wrong, and I was going against them. It was extremely emotional for me, in a very negative way. Did spanking have a negative effect on my child? I don't know. I hope not. But, it certainly had a very negative effect on me, on how I felt about myself as a parent, and on how I felt about my relationship with my DS.

[twoforjoy]

I also suffered from the fear that if I didn't use all of my power as a parent to change what was mostly developmentally appropriate behavior, my children would be ill-behaved misfit felons later in life. I understand now that that was a false belief. My children have mostly matured out of the behaviors which I found bothersome. That was the gift of knowledge which my oldest child bestowed on me. I learned that she grew up, matured, changed, and that her behavior at the age of 3, 6 and 10 did not predict who she is at 16.

 

This is why I spanked, as well. When my son was younger, I felt like, if I didn't punish every act of defiance or destructiveness or acting out, he would just keep doing those things the rest of his life. If I'd sat down to think about it, I'd probably realize that, at 15, he wouldn't be pushing a friend over if they wouldn't share a toy. But, at the time, it really seemed like that would be the case, and that he'd be going around biting people, throwing tantrums, and acting like a preschooler the rest of his life unless I got him in line.

 

Basically, I overestimated my own importance in the whole process, and underestimated how important time and growth are. There are things that DS did that we were really concerned about a year ago, that he just doesn't do any more. And it's not because we spanked it out of him, or disciplined it out of him, or even positive reinforced it out of him, but just because he'd older and he grew out of it. I like what Joanne has said about much of what we do, discipline-wise, basically just being things we do until our child outgrows a given behavior. I think that's largely true. That's not to say parents play no role in shaping behavior, but I think we probably play a far smaller role than we often believe.

[LibraryLover]

 

Basically, I overestimated my own importance in the whole process, and underestimated how important time and growth are.

.

 

 

I have felt the same way. It's especially profound with a first born. They tend to teach us a lot. :)

[ThatCyndiGirl]

This is why I spanked, as well. When my son was younger, I felt like, if I didn't punish every act of defiance or destructiveness or acting out, he would just keep doing those things the rest of his life. If I'd sat down to think about it, I'd probably realize that, at 15, he wouldn't be pushing a friend over if they wouldn't share a toy. But, at the time, it really seemed like that would be the case, and that he'd be going around biting people, throwing tantrums, and acting like a preschooler the rest of his life unless I got him in line.

 

Basically, I overestimated my own importance in the whole process, and underestimated how important time and growth are. There are things that DS did that we were really concerned about a year ago, that he just doesn't do any more. And it's not because we spanked it out of him, or disciplined it out of him, or even positive reinforced it out of him, but just because he'd older and he grew out of it. I like what Joanne has said about much of what we do, discipline-wise, basically just being things we do until our child outgrows a given behavior. I think that's largely true. That's not to say parents play no role in shaping behavior, but I think we probably play a far smaller role than we often believe.

 

Yes, I recognize this in myself as well. When my oldest was about 6 she HATED the dance class she was in and threw a tap shoe. I said to my cousin on the phone, "I feel like I have FAILED as a mother becuase she would do this!" She said,"Why? She was frustrated and she let it out. End of story."

 

(yes, the behaviour was addressed, but we didn't hit her.) I thought that if she was throwing a shoe at age 6 that she would grow up to be the type of person who would, at age 26, throw a shoe when frustrated. To extrapolate adult behaviour from child behaviour is silly.