How would you handle this potty training issue?

[ChristusG]

DD turned 4 in March....so she's 4 years and 5 months old. We have had the HARDEST time potty training her. We attempted around 2.5 years old and quickly realized it was way too early with her. We attempted again around 3 years old. Again, it quickly did not work out. Every few months after that, we'd work with her. No progress. As she approached her late 3's, we really began working with her. And now, at 4 years and 5 months, I'm just all out frustrated.

 

She's about 85 - 90% urine trained. She'll still have accidents sometimes....and I can handle that. She still pees in her pull up every single night. I can handle that too....I know that night training comes with maturity in some children. However, *if* we accidentally leave her pull up on, she makes absolutely no effort to go to the potty. She'll just stand there and pee in her pull up, not a care in the world. And then she'll walk around with a pee-pee diaper on until we ask her if she needs to go to the bathroom. Then she'll tell us that she already did. :glare: She's four years old!! I usually make her change straight out of her pull up and into underwear in the mornings. And I'll put on the pull up right before bed. But tonight, she had trouble falling asleep so I let her get back up and color (so she already had her pull up on and I didn't think to remove it)....and of course, she just pees while coloring. Doesn't even tell us. Ugh.

 

And poop training....she's oh, 0% poop trained. She won't even make an attempt to do it on the toilet. Never. Not once. One time we happened to catch her in the act and ran her to the toilet, but that's the only time she's ever used the bathroom in the toilet. Usually we don't catch her. But when we do and we sit her on the potty, she says she doesn't have to go anymore. But then, 15 minutes later she'll go in her underwear. :glare: And poopy underwear is so much more disgusting to clean up than a diaper. :ack2: And again, she doesn't even tell us. She just goes about her business with poop in her underwear until one of us smells something icky.

 

I just don't know what to do anymore.

 

We've tried taking toys away....it doesn't phase her. She brings us the toys. :confused: Even her favorites.

 

We've tried having her take a bath after each and every time she messes up her underwear, since she gets her bottom all dirty. Doesn't care.

 

DH has wanted to spank for it, but I told him that this is not an issue I'm willing to spank for. (No debates about this, we spank when we agree is necessary, but I don't feel this is a spanking issue).

 

There's no special "big girl" privileges to take away from her. I know some parents take away things like dance classes since only big girls can do dance classes....but she doesn't do any of those things.

 

I've tried letting her earn stickers for a reward. She filled up the chart with peeing and none with pooping. I told her that each time she pooped in the potty, she would receive 3 stickers on the chart instead of just one. Didn't work. Then I told her that for every single time she pooped in the potty, she could pick out of our treasure box which is filled with all sorts of goodies (she loves to pick out of this). Hasn't worked at all.

 

I told her that when she's fully trained, I will take her to the store to pick out a toy. That hasn't provided any motivation. And honestly, she just doesn't seem to care. I'll tell her that she needs to do it in the potty and she just says "okay" without even caring.

 

I haven't a clue about what direction to go next. The doctor? Honestly, I don't think it's a doctor issue though. I'm just SO frustrated with cleaning her up at 4 years old. I'm about to have a newborn and I really wish I didn't have to clean up a newborn AND a 4 year old.

[silliness7]

I have "grounded" a potty-trainee to a certain section of the house until they perform. Is that a possibility? I'm talking for pee training, child had to stay in the kitchen where it was easy to clean and could not go in the living area where there was carpet until pee pee was put in the potty. I haven't dealt with the poop issue. Hope I don't have to. My 2 1/2 yo is scared to death of the potty (all potties) and I see no end anytime soon on that front.

 

Good luck!

[Bluezoo5]

I'm so sorry I don't have any advice for you, just :grouphug:. I can commisserate because I am also very frustrated with my 4 yr 10 mo old DD. It's not identical to your situation, but we are dealing with poop accidents several times a week (which is almost every time because she's an every-other-day pooper). However, unlike yours, my DD will go on the potty sometimes. Same thing you said, my DD won't say a thing about it, one of us has to smell something. The only difference is that it won't be the entire, er, load, but enough that I would think it would make her uncomfortable (it's more than just ineffective wiping). She also has occasional pee accidents, although that seems to be getting better lately. Those are not nearly as distressing obviously.

 

I'm at my wits end too, and I have considered a doctor's visit as well. Her twin brother self-potty trained at 3 with very little prompting from me, and I can count on one hand the number of accidents he has had, and her big sister was a little older at 3.5, but also had few accidents once trained.

 

I just don't get it. Hopefully you will get some good advice that I can also benefit from. Hope things improve for the both of you.

 

:bigear:

[74Heaven]

Just a cyber hug for you. I have been in your situation with a just turned 4yo who was still having both #1 and #2 accidents. I did candy rewards. I don't think anything "did the trick" for the 4yo. (The earliest trained at 3.5yo. All 5 of mine have struggled. The lastborn was the easiest to potty train and also the *only* child of mine that ever woke up from a nap with a dry diaper.) All were bedwetters as well. The lastborn is dry about half the time at night. Personally, for bedwetters, I think most of the potty training advice is useless.

 

The one piece of advice I will give you is to just get rid of the pull ups - at least for now. For your child (& mine), they just don't let the child feel any discomfort for wetting. (& yes, I do mean for naps and bedtimes).

 

And as much as possible, have the child take care of their messes. Just matter of fact, rinse the undies in a bucket of water, wring them out an take them to the laundry. Wash up. Change clothes, etc.

 

I wouldn't be For or Against spanking for this offense. At this point, I would think if it can be done calmly, it might be worth a try? I don't know how your child responds to spanking in general?

 

I feel your pain. It is so exhausting. But it does finally end at some point.

 

Lisaj, mom to 5

Edited August 10, 2011 by 74Heaven

[Rosie_0801]

I'd get her checked out by a chiropractor, and stop using the pull ups.

 

Rosie

[sbgrace]

:grouphug: I am assuming she doesn't have special needs, correct?

 

My son does have special needs and he was very much the same except he didn't pee train either. What worked for him was commando (naked on the bottom) until bed when he was in a pull up. I did have some floor accidents (he was in the kitchen for easy clean up) but he trained and I didn't think that would happen. I don't know if it will work in her situation or if you've already tried it but it helped here. FWIW, he would regress with underwear so we did the commando for a while and then loose pants with no undies for a long while and then finally to underwear.

Edited August 10, 2011 by sbgrace

[sassenach]

Have you tried having her go without bottoms at all (naked). It sounds like it is going to take some sort of major intervention on your part to get over this hump. Maybe plan for several days at home, only allowing her to be on tile floors, coupled with lot of encouraging words, activities and incentives.

 

My 2nd ds was pee trained around 3, but was terrified to poop in the potty. We got him to the point where he would stay in underwear all day, then bring me the diaper when he was ready to poop. I finally had enough shortly after he turned 4 (when I realized that he was not going to transition himself out of that pattern) and I stopped putting the diaper on him. In response, he just stopped pooping. :blink: The stand off finally ended when I gave him a fleets enema. He had no choice, and he went. I still remember the terrified look on his face, poor guy. But dh and I just reassured him that it was ok, and then cheered for him when he was done. And that was it, no more potty battles. He had slayed his demon.

 

Good luck!

[ktog29]

I had two that were very challenging to train. I would go to the store and buy LOTS of cheap undies and when they get pooped in, just toss 'em. And I'd try a waterproof mattress pad and taking her potty a couple of times at night. Then, just smile and carry on. Congrats on your little one!

[ChristusG]

Ugh, I'm not sure that I want to get rid of the pull ups at night. DD4 sleeps with DD7 in a full sized bed in our room. That would mean waking both kids to change the bedding. And once I get up at night, I can't fall back asleep for hours.

 

I think we'll try the several days of being naked around the house though. We tried that when she began (well, began again) pee training when she was nearing 4 years old.....it didn't seem to work that time. But I have a feeling she'll be very reluctant to poop with nothing to catch it. I'm hoping that she'll go to the potty instead of just holding the poop in. I think I'll attempt the several naked days beginning on Monday.

 

And I wonder where I can find cheap underwear? I'd LOVE to just toss them (and if they are particularly icky, I already do)....but the ones with characters on them, like we have, are expensive. I wonder if the Dollar Tree has girls undies?

 

No, sbgrace, she does not have any special needs.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Honestly, I'd get her to a doctor. It makes a lot more sense to make sure there is nothing physically going on rather than stress you and her out over something she may not really have complete control over. What if it comes out to show that she shouldn't even be capable of doing as well as she's done? Then y'all could be celebrating that instead of stressing about the rest.

 

(Ex: I have half a uterus that functions. The fact that I've been pregnant three times with two live births is absolutely amazing. It makes a whole lot more sense to focus on THAT than the fact that I couldn't have 11 children. ya know?)

 

Anyway, I would start with the doctor at this point because *very* few children seriously cannot potty train by 3, much less 4½! Choosing not to, despite ability to, at 3 isn't that big of a deal. It is much less likely a choice (at least completely) at 4½.

 

If there isn't a physical reason for it, that would be different; but I think it is prudent to start there at this point.

Edited August 10, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[eternalknot]

DD turned 4 in March....so she's 4 years and 5 months old. We have had the HARDEST time potty training her. We attempted around 2.5 years old and quickly realized it was way too early with her. We attempted again around 3 years old. Again, it quickly did not work out. Every few months after that, we'd work with her. No progress. As she approached her late 3's, we really began working with her. And now, at 4 years and 5 months, I'm just all out frustrated.

 

I wonder if -not that she's necessarily doing this intentionally- she just calmly figures she'll wait you out again. Based on this:

 

We've tried taking toys away....it doesn't phase her. She brings us the toys. :confused: Even her favorites.

 

 

... it sounds like she gets something (more) out of being lazy about her bathroom habits. Honestly, some days I wish for a catether so I could go on about my day without the nuisance of having to stop, find toilet, go, clean-up, and resume life :) so I totally get where she's coming from!

 

I suspect this is why the rewards system and removal of privileges aren't working here; thus far, nothing you've offered as a reward will trump whatever reward she's perceiving to come from not using a toilet. Have you thought to ask her what the deal is? Like calmly, curiously (as opposed to in frustration after an incident) ...?

 

And poop training....she's oh, 0% poop trained. She won't even make an attempt to do it on the toilet. Never. Not once. One time we happened to catch her in the act and ran her to the toilet, but that's the only time she's ever used the bathroom in the toilet. Usually we don't catch her. But when we do and we sit her on the potty, she says she doesn't have to go anymore. But then, 15 minutes later she'll go in her underwear.

 

Is she short? My girlfriend's daughter was average in height, but on the shorter side. She took years to poop-train on the toilet, too. One day after I brought her to entertain my DD when I babysat at my sister's, and she wanted to use the little baby toilet my sis had (the girl's house didn't use one). She pooped there, I suspect for the novelty and *cute* factor (which matters to a 4 year old LOL) but maybe because we were also potty-training my 18m old nephew and she was curious. She did it without any fanfare, and I wondered if the issue was more of a gravity thing than it was a stubborn thing. At her house, she'd say just what your girl does - "don't have to go" only to go less than 15 minutes later. In pants.

 

I don't know if you use a baby potty, or if you have her use the regular toilet - but it might be worth looking in to. If she's shorter than average, it may be a gravity thing that keeps her from having to go; even average height kids can find it a challenge to go on the big toilet because when you're legs dangle, it affects positioning - not just external, but internal as well.

 

You know how we talk about labor positioning and getting a baby out? Baby sometimes gets "stuck"? The 'natural' position for pooping is the squat; toilets are an artificial construct that changed the position we use, but it couldn't change the way our bodies have more efficiently been eliminating for however long we've been around! Kiddie toilets help with this positioning, but so might a stool to rest her feet on at the base of a toilet. Try it yourself, even if YOU aren't short. Prop up your feet on a trash can or something solid next time you go, and feel the difference.

 

Just a different POV to consider; could be she's just stubborn, too :tongue_smilie:

 

We've tried having her take a bath after each and every time she messes up her underwear, since she gets her bottom all dirty. Doesn't care.

 

Army baths? Quick one minute of water on, lather, one minute of water off, done. I know it's time-consuming ((hugs)). My kids don't mind these, but they lose their novelty more quickly - unlike regular playtime baths do.

 

I'm about to have a newborn and I really wish I didn't have to clean up a newborn AND a 4 year old.

 

Gravity issues aside, I think you really need to figure out what she gets out of doing it in her pull-up. Once you know what you're up against, you'll be better prepared for battle LOL. Is is that she thinks/feels she's too busy? Does she not notice the smell? Does she not mind reverting back to/being seen as a baby (as opposed to a big girl), and might she be preferring to not become a big girl?

 

Her age is a good age to sit and have a heart-to-heart about what's the dealio; not in the heat of a moment, but just a 'hey, I'm just curious and want to know' kind of way ... it might just need a change of heart/mind in her case, and that's only possible by involving her in the process - not just the training part, but also the planning part.

 

:grouphug:

 

(You can buy cheap plain undies most places. I'd be wary of going TOO cheap because of how it'd feel against her skin, but you can find inexpensive decent undies at most stores. Look for sales. Ross, TJ Maxx, Marshall's might be good places to look, too. Don't discriminate against design - buy whatever's cheap, whether character, plain white, or boys. Though if you've been offering girlie, pretty ones as incentive this may be a trickier sell to her LOL. In that case, I think it's reasonable to suggest to her that because of the poop thing, this is the route we're going until she stays mostly dry ... and then we can resume use of pretty, girlie undies.)

 

Good luck!

[bettyandbob]

My ds has disabilities. We introduced potty training at 2.5, but at 4.5 had not mad progress. So, I consulted an ABA therapist. ds and I stayed in the bathroom from the time he got up until bed. I put my older kids in day camp --dh had to take care of driving them to and from during this time. The first day I got up at 5 to go for a run, but ds got up then too into the bathroom we went. I ended using baby gates and expanding the area we were in to include the hall. We ate our meals in the confined area. We had books, a few toys and I drag a dvd player within our view. It took 3 weeks (not the one I thought), but he was trained for both.

 

I know you don't need to train for urine, so you may not want to be this extreme.

 

My oldest used to have a hard time with bowel movements. We made a point of sitting him on the potty every night for up to an hour. He had a pile of books. We read to him a bit He looked at books by himself. I'm convinced this is how he taught himself to read--I found out he could read a week after his 4th birthday. He has sensory issues and I'm certain his sensory issues affected his ability to train for bms. So, putting him on the nightly schedule is what worked for him.

 

ETA: the time of day you choose will depend on your dd. Night was the time ds was have bm accidents most frequently.

Edited August 10, 2011 by betty

[Alyeska]

Just a cyber hug for you. I have been in your situation with a just turned 4yo who was still having both #1 and #2 accidents. I did candy rewards. I don't think anything "did the trick" for the 4yo. (The earliest trained at 3.5yo. All 5 of mine have struggled. The lastborn was the easiest to potty train and also the *only* child of mine that ever woke up from a nap with a dry diaper.) All were bedwetters as well. The lastborn is dry about half the time at night. Personally, for bedwetters, I think most of the potty training advice is useless.

 

The one piece of advice I will give you is to just get rid of the pull ups - at least for now. For your child (& mine), they just don't let the child feel any discomfort for wetting. (& yes, I do mean for naps and bedtimes).

 

And as much as possible, have the child take care of their messes. Just matter of fact, rinse the undies in a bucket of water, wring them out an take them to the laundry. Wash up. Change clothes, etc.

 

I wouldn't be For or Against spanking for this offense. At this point, I would think if it can be done calmly, it might be worth a try? I don't know how your child responds to spanking in general?

 

I feel your pain. It is so exhausting. But it does finally end at some point.

 

Lisaj, mom to 5

 

re: the bolded. This is what I would do also. :grouphug:

 

I know it is frustrating. My ds 7 hasn't had a pee accident in a few weeks now and I am holding my breath...he was having them about every other day.

[Reeciecup]

Getting rid of pull ups worked for us. It took MONTHS but it did work. With my son I covered his mattress in plastic and then just dealt with the clean up. In your situation, I think I would put a crib mattress on the floor and let her sleep there since she doesn't sleep alone. And I would tell her she can move back into the big bed, when she's a big girl and can do her thng in the potty.

[Haiku]

I'd stop with the pull-ups completely. Buy a rubber mattress cover and let her pee the bed. Make her responsible for cleaning herself and her underwear when she poops in it. And find something really fun that she can do when she decides to use the potty. Tell her it's a planned and ready to go, and when she decides she wants it, she'll use the potty.

 

You can't force a child to use the potty, but you can certainly remove their crutches.

 

My aunt had a "Poop day" with my cousin, who wouldn't poop in the potty at age five. When she got up, she went to the bathroom and sat on the toilet. She sat there all day until she pooped. My aunt told her that every day would be a Poop day. Either she (aunt) would enforce it, and she (cousin) would do it on her own. Cousin decided that it's more fun to not have to sit on the toilet all day.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Ugh, I'm not sure that I want to get rid of the pull ups at night. DD4 sleeps with DD7 in a full sized bed in our room. That would mean waking both kids to change the bedding.

 

Then put her in a sleeping bag on the floor. Sleeping in the bed becomes a privilege she earns for at least attempting not to pee and poop with abandon.

 

Tara

[Paige]

I had 4yr olds like that- 2 at the same time. I saw this as nicely as I can, nothing you do in response to her is going to matter. You can load up consequences, but it won't matter. You can provide bribes, but it won't matter. She doesn't want to poop or pee in her pants and she doesn't want to upset you. For some reason, it's just not clicking for her.

 

My first thought is to make sure you aren't dealing with encopresis. If you are, it will be harder, but you have to know! Constipation may not be obvious. We thought there was no way she could be constipated because she had large regular BMs, but we were wrong. You need to get her so she is having one BM at least every other day. The fact that she sits in it makes me suspect there may be some encopresis. She may not even realize she has gone in her pants until you tell her because the nerves are dead and her nose is numb.

 

Secondly, I'd get her a watch that buzzes for intervals you set. That makes you not the bad guy and gives her the control. Make sure she sits on the potty for about 20-30min at least once a day when the watch buzzes after a meal every day, preferably at the same time.

 

I disagree with a lot of the posters. Please don't make this more unpleasant or stressful for her. She is not happy. I promise. She wants to be like the other kids and can't. Going hardcore will only create an adversarial relationship and make things harder. Also, at night, at 4yrs old, it is probably completely out of her control. Her body probably isn't reducing her urine output at night yet and she would wake up if she could. I would tell her that if I saw her in a pull up in the morning that she would be in trouble and leave panties out by her bed for her to change into asap.

 

Good luck!

Edited August 10, 2011 by Paige

[Lacie]

My stubborn one had to go bottomless around the house or he would go to the bathroom in his pants. Once he figured out how to used the toilet, he still couldn't wear underwear. He went commando for a while. Now he can wear underwear with no problems.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Lacie
Because I can't spell this morning

[SBMama]

I have only skimmed the replies...

 

Could she be constipated at all? My ODD will be 5 in 2 weeks. She suffers from chronic constipation, and it causes her to have urine and stool accidents. As long as she is having regular bowel movements, she does fine during the day. She still wets the bed at night. Personally, I would not fight the night-wetting right now. It can be developmentally normal for some children. I would let her wear a pull-up at night and take it off first thing in the morning, just like you said. Get her checked out for any medical problems, then focus on training her during the day.

[SBMama]

I had 4yr olds like that- 2 at the same time. I saw this as nicely as I can, nothing you do in response to her is going to matter. You can load up consequences, but it won't matter. You can provide bribes, but it won't matter. She doesn't want to poop or pee in her pants and she doesn't want to upset you. For some reason, it's just not clicking for her.

 

My first thought is to make sure you aren't dealing with encopresis. If you are, it will be harder, but you have to know! Constipation may not be obvious. We thought there was no way she could be constipated because she had large regular BMs, but we were wrong. You need to get her so she is having one BM at least every other day. The fact that she sits in it makes me suspect there may be some encopresis. She may not even realize she has gone in her pants until you tell her because the nerves are dead and her nose is numb.

 

Secondly, I'd get her a watch that buzzes for intervals you set. That makes you not the bad guy and gives her the control. Make sure she sits on the potty for about 20-30min at least once a day when the watch buzzes after a meal every day, preferably at the same time.

 

I disagree with a lot of the posters. Please don't make this more unpleasant or stressful for her. She is not happy. I promise. She wants to be like the other kids and can't. Going hardcore will only create an adversarial relationship and make things harder. Also, at night, at 4yrs old, it is probably completely out of her control. Her body probably isn't reducing her urine output at night yet and she would wake up if she could. I would tell her that if I saw her in a pull up in the morning that she would be in trouble and leave panties out by her bed for her to change into asap.

 

Good luck!

 

This exactly!

[Dobela]

DOn't take away the nighttime pull-ups. That seems extreme to me when many 'typical' children still need them at night. During the day though I would. The bare bottom approach worked great for my son. For my dd though, not so much. A timer worked for my dd along with long periods of sitting on the toilet. I also made sure that any bowel movents she had wouldn't not hurt so until she began pooping regularly in the toilet by allowing her to drink lots of apple juice to keep the stool soft. And then I backed off. I made it a non issue between us. If she made it to the toilet we jumped and danced and sang a funny song, sometimes I might give her a treat. If she didn't make it, there was no emotion, just matter of fact taking care of it.

 

Has there been any other 'trama'? I ask this because several years ago my son's best buddy was refusing to poop in the toilet as well. Turns out he saw a toilet explode on Mythbusters and was afraid that would happen to him as well. I think he was 5 before his grandmother convinced him that he would be ok and most toilets don't explode.

[ereks mom]

This sounds like a power struggle issue to me. Some kids do that.

 

I think you need to ditch the Pull-Ups altogether. My ds wore Pull-Ups until he was 6 because he had accidents. Years later, he confessed that some mornings he would wake up dry, but he knew he was wearing a Pull-Up, so he would pee in it instead of getting up to go. :001_huh:

 

I wouldn't use regular underwear either. During the day, I would let her wear loose-fitting, comfortable dresses and no undies at all. I'm betting she won't just pee or poop on the floor, but will go to the potty instead. ;)

 

For nighttime, I agree with Reecie:

 

Getting rid of pull ups worked for us. It took MONTHS but it did work. With my son I covered his mattress in plastic and then just dealt with the clean up. In your situation, I think I would put a crib mattress on the floor and let her sleep there since she doesn't sleep alone. And I would tell her she can move back into the big bed, when she's a big girl and can do her thng in the potty.

[Soror]

I do naked training here and it works like a charm, easily and quickly. Only downside is that then they don't want to wear underwear. My youngest is still commando but is now working up to bottoms w/out underwear.

 

I would ditch the pullups but keep them at night personally.

[SonshineLearner]

I'd prefer not to get flamed for this, if possible. When my son was 3yrs and 2 months I started to change him... again... and realized that it was something he could control. He was old enough to go in the restroom and go by himself. I just... without any anger... said, "When children are your age, their mommies stop buying wipes. The wash them off with water." (And yup, it was a bit on the chilly side. No real guilt feelings here... It's not pain... just not pleasurable... warm water... Just cold enough it made him hate it.) I washed him... maybe 2 or 3 times. And then he decided that he'd prefer going in the potty. I then used... the "little kid wipes" for a long time to wipe him there. Some may say it's mean to put cold water on your child, but I was starting to feeling kinda angry about changing a child. (versus a baby) I'd had enough. (And I cloth diapered... etc.) This is all with a child I knew was capable. SO, all things being equal.... I agree with you about spanking... there are just other more effective ways... and more of a "logic" way... to do it... for this situation. BTW, He was sick the next week and it was the only time I can remember him just having accidents again. That's fine... I explained "sick boys" get different treatment than "well boys"... no problem. I do have compassion :)

 

(PS, sleeping through the night dry is/was totally different...)

Edited August 10, 2011 by NayfiesMama
And, getting checked by the Dr never hurts... just to rule out true medical issues :)

[stripe]

I clean my babies and kids on the toilet with water regularly (diaper changes and when on toilet). I think it's a big mistake to present a bath or cleaning as a punishment!

 

I think disposable diapers or pull ups make it hard to feel the wetness. So it's hard to put her in something that keeps her dry and then think she'll feel wet when she pees.

 

I definitely think you should be careful not to punish as it can easily lead to constipation or holding urine. Be encouraging, and not in a sarcastic way. And either go diaper free or wear cloth pull ups.

[RoundAbout]

DOn't take away the nighttime pull-ups.

 

:iagree:

 

My son very easily potty trained by 2.5, zero accidents in a long time, but he still needs night time pullups at 4.5. He's a very heavy (11 hour a night) sleeper and just doesn't wake up when he needs to go. Everything I've read says its developmentally normal for some kids to need night time pullups into age 5.

[Pretty in Pink]

Well, my 5.5 year old will still pee in his pull up, too, if I don't have him remove it immediately when he gets up in the morning or if he puts it on too early at night. I won't stress about that. I would continue to use the pull ups at night. One of my boys needed them until around his 6th birthday.

 

The poop issue...um, yuck. I would be frustrated, too. I would probably plan several days at home and just leave her nude from the waist down during that time (perhaps a long-ish tshirt during that time if modesty is an issue for your family). I doubt she needs to see a doctor. I would not punish her for poopy accidents in any way. It's not going to make a difference as you have already seen. It will create more tension around the issue, make her more apprehensive about pooping in general, and create opportunities for your blood pressure to rise. It's just not worth it. She's not going to go off to college in a pull up.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Pretty in Pink

[Amy in NH]

If she does not have SN, this is a power struggle for her. Make it as unpleasant as possible for her to continue what she is doing:

 

No pants (or pull-ups), even at night. I agree with other posters to get a toddler mattress with a plastic cover and put it on the floor. Let her feel the discomfort of being wet. If she messes, she cleans. Get training pants (cloth with rubber covers) for out in public; if she messes those she gets cleaned with cold water (invest in a pull down shower head if you don't already have one).

 

I potty trained 3 of my 4 just before they turned two. It took less than 2 weeks for each of them. I was very kind about it until after they were fully trained - if they tried to turn it into a power struggle after the fact I used the cold water, which they only needed once or twice before that war was over. (The only reason my 1st ds wasn't trained until age 3 was that my ex wouldn't allow him to go pants-less.)

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Have you tried having her go without bottoms at all (naked). It sounds like it is going to take some sort of major intervention on your part to get over this hump. Maybe plan for several days at home, only allowing her to be on tile floors, coupled with lot of encouraging words, activities and incentives.

 

 

Good luck!

 

:iagree:This is what worked for us.

[kreistetter]

My oldest ds was 5, maybe even 6, before he was consistently using the toilet. I know it is incredibly frustrating! He is now 11, and looking back, I wish I wouldn't have gotten so angry. I don't have any advice on to deal with the issue at present, but it will eventually resolve!!! Good luck!

[Haiku]

This sounds like a power struggle issue to me. Some kids do that.

 

I think you need to ditch the Pull-Ups altogether. My ds wore Pull-Ups until he was 6 because he had accidents. Years later, he confessed that some mornings he would wake up dry, but he knew he was wearing a Pull-Up, so he would pee in it instead of getting up to go. :001_huh:

 

 

 

This is my son. He would wake up at 4 in the morning and decide he would rather wet the bed than get up and pee. Once I had him start washing his own sheets, he stopped wetting the bed!

 

Tara

[Haiku]

I'm just SO frustrated with cleaning her up at 4 years old.

 

You could also try the "Mommy doesn't" tack. Make it not about her behavior but yours. "Mommy doesn't clean up poopy underwear." This worked well for my son and his chronic cars-on-the-floor problem. No amount of nagging, reminding, or threatening did anything about the cars being left on the floor. One day I said, "Mommy doesn't clean up cars left on the floor. She throws them away." I had to do it once. It's also what I said about the bedwetting. "Mommy doesn't wash sheets when kids wet the bed on purpose."

 

Tara

[mo2]

DD turned 4 in March....so she's 4 years and 5 months old. We have had the HARDEST time potty training her. We attempted around 2.5 years old and quickly realized it was way too early with her. We attempted again around 3 years old. Again, it quickly did not work out. Every few months after that, we'd work with her. No progress. As she approached her late 3's, we really began working with her. And now, at 4 years and 5 months, I'm just all out frustrated.

 

She's about 85 - 90% urine trained. She'll still have accidents sometimes....and I can handle that. She still pees in her pull up every single night. I can handle that too....I know that night training comes with maturity in some children. However, *if* we accidentally leave her pull up on, she makes absolutely no effort to go to the potty. She'll just stand there and pee in her pull up, not a care in the world. And then she'll walk around with a pee-pee diaper on until we ask her if she needs to go to the bathroom. Then she'll tell us that she already did. :glare: She's four years old!! I usually make her change straight out of her pull up and into underwear in the mornings. And I'll put on the pull up right before bed. But tonight, she had trouble falling asleep so I let her get back up and color (so she already had her pull up on and I didn't think to remove it)....and of course, she just pees while coloring. Doesn't even tell us. Ugh.

 

And poop training....she's oh, 0% poop trained. She won't even make an attempt to do it on the toilet. Never. Not once. One time we happened to catch her in the act and ran her to the toilet, but that's the only time she's ever used the bathroom in the toilet. Usually we don't catch her. But when we do and we sit her on the potty, she says she doesn't have to go anymore. But then, 15 minutes later she'll go in her underwear. :glare: And poopy underwear is so much more disgusting to clean up than a diaper. :ack2: And again, she doesn't even tell us. She just goes about her business with poop in her underwear until one of us smells something icky.

 

Wow. You've pretty much described my situation exactly: The mostly urine trained but still the rare accident, the 0% poop trained, all the things you've tried, even down to very same age! (What day in March?) I even posted about it on here the other day. That night we had one successful BM on the potty, none since then (but several in his pants). Obviously I don't have any advice for you, just :grouphug:.

[Chelli]

For my oldest what worked was this: She did not mind peeing/pooping in her pullup. I too tried rewards. Nothing. Finally, I realized that she did not want to stop her playing to go to the bathroom. I ditched the pullups, bought those thick cotton training panties and some plastic covers. I told her that starting now she would be put in timeout for 5 minutes if she pottied in her pants, but if she went to the bathroom, then she could go right back to playing. She was potty trained in a week after I figured out what her issue was.

 

However, I did try the no underwear at all trick. Colossal failure!!! She would just go off and pee/poop in the floor which I would find later :eek:

 

:grouphug: I've yet to have an easy one to potty train. If there was a service where I could ship my kids off for a few weeks and they would come back potty trained, I would be the first to sign up!!!

[Haiku]

nothing you do in response to her is going to matter. You can load up consequences, but it won't matter. You can provide bribes, but it won't matter. She doesn't want to poop or pee in her pants and she doesn't want to upset you. For some reason, it's just not clicking for her.

 

 

I honestly don't think this is true. I've known far too many people whose kids simply didn't want to use the toilet, for myriad reasons, but once it became unrewarding for them to continue not using the toilet, they started using the toilet. At 4 1/2 years old, barring a medical issue, it's become habit/power struggle/preference.

 

I think that there is so much hysteria about psychologically harming our kids that people unwittingly set up conditions that work against them in their quest to potty train their kids. It kinda reminds me of some people I know who continued to push their five year old around in a stroller (even at home) because that's what she liked, and she "got tired" quickly if she had to walk. And they wondered why she was overweight. And when she went to Kindergarten, she got over her tendency to become tired quickly AND lost weight. :001_huh:

 

Tara

[Parrothead]

If you have the time and the funds for it, take her to the doctor as a precaution. Let her know exactly why she is going to the doctor and if the doctor says there is nothing wrong with her then it is time to use the potty.

 

I'd make the next few days all about potty training. I would tell her in no uncertain terms that now is the time to go potty. Keep it simple, keep it at her level, but mommy cleaning it up is over. She is a big girl and they do not make Pull-ups for girls her age.

 

Also let some peer pressure come into play. Big sister is not going to like it if she is sleeping on sheets that little sister has peed on.

 

And get rid of the pull ups. IMO they are detrimental to effective potty training. There is very little difference in wearing a pull up and wearing a diaper.

[iluvmy4blessings]

My now 15 year old dd was not potty trained until she was about 5 years old. I kid you not! She would die for me saying that on her lol. She is the reason I even found out about homeschooling b/c I feared I would not be able to enroll her in school due to this issue!! I finally gave up completely and decided I'd just be changing her diapers until she was 18. I did everything imaginable. I bought every book. I used to get up and sing and dance and beg! Nothing. So I just threw in the towel. About 2 weeks later, I heard the toilet flush. Out she walked. From that day on, she was fully potty trained. Go figure!

[bairnmama]

I honestly don't think this is true. I've known far too many people whose kids simply didn't want to use the toilet, for myriad reasons, but once it became unrewarding for them to continue not using the toilet, they started using the toilet. At 4 1/2 years old, barring a medical issue, it's become habit/power struggle/preference.

 

I think that there is so much hysteria about psychologically harming our kids that people unwittingly set up conditions that work against them in their quest to potty train their kids. It kinda reminds me of some people I know who continued to push their five year old around in a stroller (even at home) because that's what she liked, and she "got tired" quickly if she had to walk. And they wondered why she was overweight. And when she went to Kindergarten, she got over her tendency to become tired quickly AND lost weight. :001_huh:

 

Tara

 

 

I mostly agree with you about parents being overly concerned about children being psychologically fragile, however this is one instance where I am opposed. My nephew is a classic example of the *wrong* way to potty train a child. He lives in mortal fear of his father EVER finding out he still has accidents even though it is almost 100% a medical issue (he's 14). So much so that he will lie to your face and hide/destroy the "evidence".

 

My nephew honestly doesn't feel the need to have a bm. He often doesn't feel it in his pants either and will go to the bathroom every hour to check himself during the day. He has been grounded, spanked, left in a bathroom for hours half naked "because only big boys are allowed to wear pants", etc. His parents refused to take him to the dr and just kept upping the consequences... and my sister would help him hide the problem from her dh as he got older.:glare:

 

Bedwetting and similar problems run in my family. My uncle was 13 before he was dry at night - in a time well before pull-ups and Goodnights. My cousin's boys were around 14 and my dd didn't have a single dry night until she was almost 8. Thankfully she hasn't had an accident in about 1 1/2 yrs. Please take your dd to the doctor to at least find out if the situation is even within her control, especially if similar things run in either your or your dh's family.

 

As for what to do in the meantime... my ds just wouldn't poo in the potty. He withheld until he was leaking fecal material around a plug. I finally started giving him stool softeners and had him go bottomless around the house. He started crying and screaming, running around in circles when he couldn't hold it in and finally pooped on the floor a little before I got him on the potty, but after that it wasn't such a big deal to him. We talked about it being his body's trash and he needed to "take out the trash" just like we do for the kitchen trash. I even let the kitchen trash go a little long between being emptied to emphasize the nastiness to his insides. Those two things combined seemed to do the trick.

 

Good luck!

[Farrar]

I didn't read all the responses, but...

 

Taking away the diaper at bedtime seems futile to me. My boys were totally trained but it still took them nearly two years to get to where I wanted to take those pull-ups off at night - not until they were almost 5. That's something that is so related to straight up physical maturity that I wouldn't want to do it.

 

But I would get really vigilant about making sure it comes off and stays off during the day. And maybe do the no undies thing (we tried that and it really did help) and ground her to one (easy to clean) room in the house. And I insisted my boys help with the clean up when there were accidents so I second that suggestion.

 

Be patient. And HUGS!

[Pretty in Pink]

I cannot disagree strongly enough with the advice to punish a child or otherwise make life unpleasant over potty training. There is no need to create unnecessary apprehension on the child's part with regards to using the restroom. I don't get that. I would not engage in a power struggle with a 4yo over using the toilet. I just wouldn't. It's not about coddling. It's about refusing to escalate the situation by enforcing punitive consequences over using the toilet.

 

The child in question is four years old. There is no reason to suspect that she wets the bed purposely in her sleep. It's absolutely developmentally normal for her to do so. Why would anyone assume that a child purposefully wets the bed while they are unconscious? Why punish them for that by refusing to help them clean up after themselves or denying them nighttime wear which would prevent the mess in the first place? Making them sleep in underwear is not a magic cure; some children just are not capable at that age of staying dry through the night. I had one who stayed dry at 3 years of age and two who couldn't. I once tried the suggestion of insisting that onesleep in underwear so that he could feel that he was wet. It didn't work. I did create a lot of urine-soaked laundry and embarass my child immensely.

[Haiku]

I would not engage in a power struggle with a 4yo over using the toilet.

 

I wouldn't either. But there's nothing wrong with telling a 4 1/2 year old child that it's her, not mom's, responsibility to make sure she uses the toilet. Changing diapers or cleaning up poopy underwear in a child that big is gross and, in most cases, unnecessary. Certainly rule out a medical issue, but the OP stated she doesn't think it's medical. So instead of mom and dad running around in circles and waving their hands in the air about what to do (which is certainly amusing for a child to watch, and rewarding in its own way), simply give the problem to the child to solve.

 

Tara

[Pretty in Pink]

I wouldn't either. But there's nothing wrong with telling a 4 1/2 year old child that it's her, not mom's, responsibility to make sure she uses the toilet. Changing diapers or cleaning up poopy underwear in a child that big is gross and, in most cases, unnecessary. Certainly rule out a medical issue, but the OP stated she doesn't think it's medical. So instead of mom and dad running around in circles and waving their hands in the air about what to do (which is certainly amusing for a child to watch, and rewarding in its own way), simply give the problem to the child to solve.

 

Tara

 

I don't disagree that it's gross to clean up after potty accidents. It is. What happens if making the child clean up after herself doesn't work? The kid may or may not decide to use the potty at that point though, IME, the child is not going to use the potty until they are good and ready regardless of what punishments are levied their way (and, in any case, four year olds are probably not so great at cleaning up their own accidents and an adult is going to have to go behind them anyway and finish the job much of the time).

 

But say it doesn't work, and the kid continues to poop on themselves. What then? At some point the parents become frustrated that the kid still doesn't get it or they get annoyed that they still have to clean up behind the child or whatever. The situation isn't benign -- the parent will in some way communicate to the child that they are still frustrated/upset/angry (at the very least) or, more likely, the parent will decide that this solution hasn't worked and decide upon another course of action, perhaps more punitive than the last. And if the parents' frustration is rewarding in it's own way, well, this kind of defeats the purpose of denying the child that reward.

 

I would just say, "Oh, you've had another accident. No big deal. Let's get you cleaned up." and then move on. No freaking out or losing my cool (which I have done in the past, I admit). I would try something, such as confining the child to a specific space for a few days sans undies and attempting to get her to the potty during a bm so that she could get it in the right place and see that it's good to do so.

 

I see no value in making a child clean up their own nighttime accidents at that age (perhaps at the age of 7 or 8 if they were embarrassed by my helping them).

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. I'm just trying to give the OP some things to consider, which I realize you are as well. :001_smile:

[sixpence1978]

I also haven't read all the responses yet but I'll add my 2 cents.

 

My DD was a bit harder to potty train as well. I would not get rid of the pull-ups at night. Just focus on daytime for now. I also wouldn't punish for accidents...it can really backfire on some kids.

 

What worked here was (as previously mentioned) going completely bare. We limited activity to certain easy to clean areas of the house. When we couldn't be in those areas, we would use just underpants. All accidents were kept low key and DD would have to clean them up. Yes, it was a struggle, but I needed her to see how unpleasant it was.

 

We also had a reward chart. She would get a small sticker for successful pees and a large, special sticker for pooping. Once she had a certain number, she earned her set reward. It helped to have it already bought and in clear view but where she couldn't reach it.

 

Anyway, :grouphug:, and hang in there.

 

Edited to add: I meant to mention that you might want to see if there is some sort of "routine" she has as far as when she has accidents. After waking up and after eating are somewhat typical times. I remember sitting DD down on the toilet and reading stories with her for a good 15 minutes during those times.

Edited August 10, 2011 by sixpence1978

[bairnmama]

I just remembered I also gave ds rewards for going on the potty. I bought lots of those mini M&Ms. They're teeny tiny and almost not worth eating unless you eat the whole package IMHO, lol. Anyway, he would get 1 for going pee and 3 for going poo in the potty.... even if it was 10 pm or 5 am. I kept them handy and he got to eat them as soon as his hands were washed. There was no punishment of accidents. I just mentioned that his "trash" wasn't where it belonged and cleaned him up. I don't know if he would have stopped withholding as quickly without those extra M&Ms.

[Haiku]

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. I'm just trying to give the OP some things to consider, which I realize you are as well. :001_smile:

 

Yeah. :)

 

I guess in my experience I have seen far more older kids who just didn't have the right incentive to go to the potty than I have kids who had actual medical issues going on. Making the child responsible might not work; having mom continue to clean up the child and mess nonjudgmentally might not work. It's kinda a crap shoot (pun intended). ;)

 

Tara

[*Lulu*]

I cannot disagree strongly enough with the advice to punish a child or otherwise make life unpleasant over potty training. There is no need to create unnecessary apprehension on the child's part with regards to using the restroom. I don't get that. I would not engage in a power struggle with a 4yo over using the toilet. I just wouldn't. It's not about coddling. It's about refusing to escalate the situation by enforcing punitive consequences over using the toilet.

 

The child in question is four years old. There is no reason to suspect that she wets the bed purposely in her sleep. It's absolutely developmentally normal for her to do so. Why would anyone assume that a child purposefully wets the bed while they are unconscious? Why punish them for that by refusing to help them clean up after themselves or denying them nighttime wear which would prevent the mess in the first place? Making them sleep in underwear is not a magic cure; some children just are not capable at that age of staying dry

through the night. I had one who stayed dry at 3 years of age and two who couldn't. I once tried the suggestion of insisting that onesleep in underwear so that he could feel that he was wet. It didn't work. I did create a lot of urine-soaked laundry and embarass my child immensely.

 

:iagree:

 

We had a bear of a time with DD6 and potty training. (Even now if she is super tired she may sleep too deeply and have an accident.) Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes.

 

1- Have DD checked by doctor.

 

2- If there are no physical reasons for the hold up, try to determine what her motivations are.

 

3- Find something she really cares about to use as motivation to finish potty training. (conquer daytime, then you can work on overnight)

 

For my DD it was beautiful panties. she saw some big girl panties at Gymboree and wanted some so badly that I KNEW I had her! :D If she had an urination accident in the new panties she had to wear a pull up until after nap or bedtime (depending on the time of day) and if she had a bowel movement in her panties she had to throw them away. (Pooping was our big problem and I needed her to be as unhappy about poop in her panties as I was!)

 

The best advice I can give that is some that a Mom of college aged boys gave me: they won't go off to college in pull ups, keep it in prospective and you'll eventually get to laugh about this.

 

 

ETA- In our case DD was able to use the potty and aware of when she needed to go, and we did not treat the pull ups as a punishment, but a matter of fact, action-reaction kind of thing.

Edited August 10, 2011 by BLA5

[Rosie_0801]

My nephew honestly doesn't feel the need to have a bm. His parents refused to take him to the dr and just kept upping the consequences... and my sister would help him hide the problem from her dh as he got older.:glare:

 

Seriously, that boy needs checking by a chiropractor. The oldest my chiro has seen patients for this sort of thing is 16. If their lower backs are out of kilter, it squashes the nerves so they don't feel the need to do their business. It's hard to follow through on a message you don't receive.

 

Rosie

[stripe]

I wouldn't want my kid to clean up poop. That would just not be acceptable. I know no kid would be able to clean it properly. I just ask for help or send the kid to clean up. But if needed, I assist that too!

 

I cannot say strongly enough how much I feel the idea of getting clean as punishment for an accident, is wrong.

 

Clearly different people have different perspectives, but I encourage my kids to clean after they use the toilet. I don't want them to feel it's somehow traumatic!

 

Everybody poops.

 

I just don't want poop all over my house or the tub. Yech.

[spaceman]

Doctor and/or chiro first.

 

I'd ditch the pull-ups. You can get a waterproof pad for her to sleep on.

 

I'd also have her do the clean-up, not as punishment, but just because she made the mess.

 

Is she ever constipated? I'd also keep a huge eye on preventing that because it could make a complicated situation even more so.

 

Make an effort to catch her pooping and bring her to the potty and then let her stay there for a predetermined time.

 

I'd also drop punishments and reward systems. And if you ever catch her contemplating holding poop in, relax and tell her about times when you have to do something you don't want to and whatever motivates you through those times.

 

:grouphug: