Debt, life goals, investing in future, balancing it all

[LibraryLover]

Thank you.

 

 

 

Me either, but I'm not letting that stop me!:tongue_smilie:

 

 

I can run for errors on my desk top. I just haven't figured out how to do it on the portable Apple products I own, but truly do not know how to use. ;):tongue_smilie:

[-M-]

LibraryLover posted a good compromise plan in my opinon...and if some of those things could be done without financing a huge amount I would certainly not think less of Martha.

 

No matter what the OP decides, I will think neither more nor less of her. It's just not my place to do so. And I agree, she was probably just talking through her choices. Your restatement really lays the issue bare, though, which is what I responded to.

 

As I've said repeatedly, these sorts of threads are difficult all around. People have definite and different responses to money, and these times are the most difficult many have experienced. Money -- the lack of it or the abundance of it -- is an emotionally charged subject. As LibraryLover pointed out, it's difficult to explain how you financed your child's trip to Paris when another person is wondering how to provide the weekly groceries.

 

There but for the grace, and all that.

 

We see the same wildly differing opinions on the subject of paying for college, too, something the OP didn't mention.

 

Talk of money, religion, politics, and math programs... tricksey stuff, I tell you.

 

*wry grin*

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mental multivitamin
Clarity

[Murphy101]

Well, let's set aside the OP and her posts for just a moment and focus on your summary. Can anyone imagine sitting with a financial planner and saying, "I have nothing to put aside for retirement savings, but I'm thinking that maybe I should incur some debt to give my children enrichment opportunities such as travel abroad. What do you say?"

 

I can hear the bemused guffaw from here.

 

After the planner rearranges his or her face into a more professional expression, he or she might say, "Well. How much debt can you afford? Okay. And how will you pay down that debt? Well, if you can afford to make those payments, erm, you do, in fact, have enough to set aside for your retirement and for insurance. That would be my recommendation."

 

I wouldn't base any of my life on the opinion of a financial planner. According to them, I'm screwed from the start because I married at 19 (doesn't matter that most of them married later and are divorced) and had kids, then had 10 of them. Kids are never considered a good investment as far as financial planning goes. And there are a heck of a lot of retirees right now who wish they had not listened to their financial planner wrt their retirement planning.

 

Just saying... :D

[Impish]

Aren't we doing that anyways if we refuse to invest in our children now? If I refuse to spend money on my kids now that might benefit their futures later, how is that any different? Either way requires a sacrifice of the kids' future prospects to some level.

 

Investing in my kids is more likely to pay out than the stock market IMHO and might benefit us sooner and for longer than the same funds set aside for my retirement.

 

eta: That isn't even touching the entire "taken" rather than lovingly given aspect. :...(

 

 

 

That is a sad and pathetic statement of our societies value of family. I have no doubt you have seen it. So have I. I hope to raise my children with a healthier and less selfish perspective. I cared for my mother. I will care for dad most likely. I don't know how we did it. I don't know how we will do it. But I couldn't live with myself if I did any different. I won't resent it. My husband won't leave me over it.

 

 

 

That exactly what I'm doing.

 

How does denying my children opportunities for educational, career, or personal growth now impact their future?

 

I don't think it is necessarily true that retirement is always the better investment. Especially when the bottom line for us is that it is a question of magnitude. What meager funds we could allot towards debt for our kids opportunities would never ever amount to anything worth a flip of retirement, but they might offer a leg up for our kids. Who knows if that will ever be repaid to us in retirement, but I figure it has a higher likelihood of payout than the stock market. I'm certainly less likely to look at it as money down the toilet if it doesn't directly pay off for me later.

To me, 'expectation' = 'demand'. So no, its not about being lovingly given if its an expectation. Like it or not, there's only so much to go around, and when resources are used in one area, they aren't available for another...So taking care of an elderly parent DOES take from the available resources for the kids.

 

I don't think that its selfish, unusual, or even wrong for kids to feel somewhat abandoned when they can't go places, do things, have time alone with Mom and Dad b/c Grandma needs 24/7 care. I think for a child, that's a normal reaction. I'm not talking luxuries. I'm talking, "I'm sorry, but I can't take you to Suzy's b/c Grandma cannot be left alone." "I'm sorry, but every spare dime goes to paying for Grandma's care, meds, services, and we can't afford to do piano lessons/swim lessons/anything beyond basic food/shelter/clothing.", can't have friends over b/c Grandma can't handle any noise, or any one of a thousand issues that can and DO happen when family is the only resource for an elderly parent.

 

It does impact the next generation.

 

Again, I'm dealing with this from two different perspectives. First, the first hand witness to this as a health care professional. Second, the wife of someone who was raised constantly being told that he owed her, that he is her retirement plan...and yes, those exact words.

 

If it were simply a matter of moving into a place that had an inlaw suite, we might eventually be able to manage that. Beyond that, we simply are not able. And we're dealing with expectations not being met, and the issues that go along with that. MIL feels betrayed. Rightly or wrongly, she raised him w/the idea that he was responsible for her care. Now its not happening, and she's very angry.

 

Interestingly enough, her own mother was in a nursing home.

[unsinkable]

It's so truly sad. Especially since posts live forever. *Forever*. Curse you, web crawler! One day nobody will even remember how difficult these early technology years were for some of us. <pout> :D They will just see how dumb some of us looked! :auto:

 

One of my kids spelled a word wrong on a game forum and when people were laughing and pointing it out, he couldn't see what he had spelled wrong.

 

It was years ago and he says people still kid him about it and that it is a kind of inside joke on that board.

[-M-]

NM

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mental multivitamin

[RoundAbout]

Without coming down on any particular side, but in trying to address the OP's call for specific criteria for making these hard choices I offer this: is there a specific talent or opportunity that might expire without immediate intervention?

 

In my opinion, travel abroad is one of the easiest things to obtain later. All it takes is money and desire. Sometimes not even money - there are things like military service or teaching English. I didn't travel abroad until I was 27 but boy did I make up for it big time. I would also say my experiences are far richer (living in China, backpacking across India) than many of my peers who were able to do a semester abroad at 19. I do thank my parents for feeding my interests and desire through museum visits and such, but we were far too poor for anything other than National Park visits for our family vacations (fond memories BTW, and ones I'm trying to re-create with my son).

 

Something like nurturing a particular talent or gift would come before travel if I had to make a choice (and I value travel a lot!)

[Tarreymere]

I want to do things now. For our kids and ourselves. But it would take at least some significant debt to make it happen. I want to travel at least a couple times outside the US. I want to invest in some classes and experiences for the older boys. Yes, I want them to help fund that, but the reality of this economy is even if they find jobs, they will need help doing these things.

 

 

It all comes down to what is important to you and your family. We all have different ideas of what is important. I agree with the previous poster who pointed out that if you are willing to go into debt for these experiences then you should be willing to save up the payment amount you would be making on the debt every month. It makes more sense to save up instead of just borrowing the money or using the credit and trying make the payments later. If you use credit you know you end up paying more, and if you are planning to pay off the debt you will not have the use of that payment money anyway so why not set that money aside now and save it. If you do decide to go for it.

 

If I wanted to do what you want to do, I would save the money first. But, honestly no one in my entire family has ever travelled outside the country for pleasure outside of being sent somewhere in the service. Sure it would be nice, but not worth going into debt for, for us. If it was something we thought was important, we would find some money to save for it. Same for the classes and experiences you want your kids to have, nice but not essential for raising great kids. If you really think these things are important, then they are important enough to save for, because eventually you have to make that payment on that debt so why not put that cash now into savings? It is like when you go grocery shopping and you think gee I would like to have that top sirloin, but is that top sirloin worth going into debt for when your kids will be just as healthy with turkey breast? Maybe you can get some top sirloin, but it is probably much better to save up for it rather than to put it on credit.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Rainefox

[lilacii]

It might be helpful to look for opportunities to "travel abroad" (etc.) as a volunteer. Although not exatly the same as a "holiday", it might offer the advantages that you are seeking.

 

I know that there are "volunteer" positions in foreign countries that exchange room/ board for your labor. Granted, many might require for you to pay transportation costs.

 

I know that there are always "mission" opportunities abroad, most often with financial assistance from designated religious group. (I do not know your beliefs, so I hope this is not an offensive suggestion). While work is required, it is also rewarding.

 

Look at the "International" organizations- see if there are any needs abroad. They will often help fund trip members. (I'm thinking specifically of the International Rotary organization, but I'm sure there are others).

 

In addition, I think that YOU are the one that has to live with your financial choices, so it comes down to your comfort level. For my family, passing on a legacy of being debt-free would be more of a priority and teaching of our family values than seeing "the world". I LOVE traveling, but do not love it enough to endure the stress of huge debt:001_smile:.

[Impish]

I think you underestimate children everywhere. As well as future spouses.

 

I haven't 'planned' to have my child take care of me in my old age. But I would hope he would do so to the best of his ability if need be. I don't 'plan' to take care of my adult son---but I certainly would should the need arise.

 

I waited until I was 35 to have a baby so that my then husband would be making enough money to support us so that I could stay home with our son. I sure didn't count on my husband forcing me to divorce him.

 

Sometimes I wake up with a start thinking about my old age and how I will manage.

 

What can I do though? I could put ds11 in public school for the first time in his life and frantically try to make some cash to 'catch up' in the race for retirement savings. To me though, that is sacrificing my son's current (very real) situation for my unknown future.

 

What I am trying to say (badly I think) is 'the best laid plans...'

I'm not underestimating, I'm saying that they should have the freedom of choice, without expectations of others weighing on them. That they should have the right to make the decisions that are best for their family (spouse and children) without the demand of others.

 

For some, its feasible, its doable, its right. For others, for a myriad of reasons, its not...and I'm living that reality right now.

 

That's why I'm trying to point out that planning on the kids taking care of the parents isn't a fair retirement plan, for anyone.

 

I agree that family should, whenever possible, band together to do what they can for the best of everyone. I also know, from first hand experience, that there can come a time where what's best for spouse and children means going against what's best (or what someone else believes best) for others, and its a sucky place to be, for everyone.

[unsinkable]

I'm not underestimating, I'm saying that they should have the freedom of choice, without expectations of others weighing on them. That they should have the right to make the decisions that are best for their family (spouse and children) without the demand of others.

 

For some, its feasible, its doable, its right. For others, for a myriad of reasons, its not...and I'm living that reality right now.

 

That's why I'm trying to point out that planning on the kids taking care of the parents isn't a fair retirement plan, for anyone.

 

I agree that family should, whenever possible, band together to do what they can for the best of everyone. I also know, from first hand experience, that there can come a time where what's best for spouse and children means going against what's best (or what someone else believes best) for others, and its a sucky place to be, for everyone.

 

But your MIL is not with you, is she? I know she wants to be and expects to be but she isn't, right? :confused:

[nono]

True.

 

I wasn't assuming she was going to throw caution to the wind and let 'er rip, though. She's obviously been very frugal and thoughtful. I doubt she was going to stop all that on a dime.

 

 

Well, I was trying to present a different way of looking at it. My point is that I don't think in terms of "investment" in children. It's all "gambling." :tongue_smilie: Analogy time: So, would I take on debt to go gamble in Atlantic City? Even with the potential for a decent payoff? No, I wouldn't, and I do love my table games! :D

 

My post wasn't an accusation of becoming irresponsible on Martha's part. It was my answer to her updated question from my perspective.

[MelanieM]

If you really think these things are important, then they are important enough to save for, because eventually you have to make that payment on that debt so why not put that cash now into savings?

 

I think this is a really good question to ask when considering any debt. If it's not possible to save for it, then is it possible to pay for it? And if it's not possible to pay for it, then ... well, what then? Is it even a question any longer?

[Murphy101]

Well, I was trying to present a different way of looking at it. My point is that I don't think in terms of "investment" in children. It's all "gambling." :tongue_smilie: Analogy time: So, would I take on debt to go gamble in Atlantic City? Even with the potential for a decent payoff? No, I wouldn't, and I do love my table games! :D

 

My post wasn't an accusation of becoming irresponsible on Martha's part. It was my answer to her updated question from my perspective.

 

Closest iveever come in my life to gambling is parish hall bingo. (won $50 once!!! Felt like I won the lottery! LOL)

 

I'd LIKE to hope I have at least 1 in 10 odds of a kid being a better gamble than Atlantic City. Or parish bingo for that matter. However, they are my children, so I might be biased in my esteem of them.:D

[Murphy101]

I think this is a really good question to ask when considering any debt. If it's not possible to save for it, then is it possible to pay for it? And if it's not possible to pay for it, then ... well, what then? Is it even a question any longer?

 

There is a world of difference between having a lump sum of money and having a bit of money to make payments with.

 

For example, that flight camp was less than $600, which I didn't have and couldn't come up with in the less than 2 months notice I had about it. I probably could have squeaked out small payments of less than $50 a month though.

[kalanamak]

I haven't read the other responses. ;)

 

The only debt I ever had was for buying a house, and for post-bac education. I found, over and over, when I saved up for something, the idea of having savings was more wonderful than the "fun" thing I'd saved up for. I don't regret living that way, and the older I get, the less important "grand memories" have become. Illness can strike any of us, and disability is more common than outright death. I would not enjoy a vacation if I was wondering how I'd feed my family if I had a bad car wreck and spent month recovering.

 

My compromise has been to send hubby and kiddo on sojourns, and just work plenty of OT while they are gone.

 

Sorry you are chafing at your situation. :grouphug:

[unsinkable]

Dysfunction goes the other way, too. I know someone (very well) who barely made it thru school, had several kids out of wedlock before she married, was addicted to drugs, has no financial means of caring for herself or family...and her parents bailed her out every.single.time.

 

Her father always promised her he'd take care of her but then he died. No more bailouts. She's absolutely lost it emotionally many, many times since then. She seems to think there is money somewhere that is being held for her since her dad PROMISED her.

 

Her parents could have put their foot down many, many times but didn't.

 

ETA: This was for Impish. I think there is a huge difference between a family culture that cares for ALL the members, whatever the age, to the best of their ability and having a destructive relationship.

Edited July 25, 2011 by unsinkable

[MelanieM]

There is a world of difference between having a lump sum of money and having a bit of money to make payments with.

 

For example, that flight camp was less than $600, which I didn't have and couldn't come up with in the less than 2 months notice I had about it. I probably could have squeaked out small payments of less than $50 a month though.

 

Yes, there is a big difference. But knowing how much you could actually come up with for payments can really help you determine what your options really are. And if you know it's possible to come up with $50 a month for experiences, then doing that might be a good place to start, with the expectation that it will either be savings for a future need or a jump start on paying back some planned debt when the next camp (or whatever) opportunity comes up. Like an emergency enrichment fund. :)

[Peela]

We are not in debt either- we get holidays when we save for them, and that's not often. But save we do. We haven't got retirement savings...we have a couple of investments instead.

Sometimes I go into a small amount of credit card debt for something, but mostly, I just save for things.

I wouldn't undervalue travelling within your own country, inexpensively, either. I was taken overseas as a child, and it was memorable to some extent although I was a little young for some of it to remember much, but so were the family bushwalking holidays, the trips out to the outback, the beach holidays at my aunt's beach house.

So, no, i don't think I would go into debt to travel overseas unless I knew I could pay it off in a short time. But then, there are some things that are so important to me that would go into some debt for them- and overseas travel generlaly isn't one of them- but I can understand that for some people, overseas travel for their kids might be one of those things. It just wouldnt be for me. Dh promised dd a trip to Paris for her 16th birthday. At the time, money was flowing well and it seemed a reasonable thing to do. Soon after, it wasn't- money became much tighter. It took a year to get the money together- and only the 2 of them went- but they did go, and without debt. DH actually regretted the promise because it did put a lot of stress on us financially but he followed through since it was a promise.

[justamouse]

Well, I was trying to present a different way of looking at it. My point is that I don't think in terms of "investment" in children. It's all "gambling." :tongue_smilie: Analogy time: So, would I take on debt to go gamble in Atlantic City? Even with the potential for a decent payoff? No, I wouldn't, and I do love my table games! :D

 

My post wasn't an accusation of becoming irresponsible on Martha's part. It was my answer to her updated question from my perspective.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't break up my post enough, that part was in reference to another idea that was floated by in the thread, not you. :grouphug:

[Impish]

But your MIL is not with you, is she? I know she wants to be and expects to be but she isn't, right? :confused:

No, she isn't living with us. Problem is, its not that cut and dried. Wolf feels guilty, b/c he can't do for her...Financially and physically its a no go...but there's also the reality that having her under our roof would completely fracture our marriage.

 

She feels completely betrayed. That adds to the situation. As far as she's concerned, she put in the time raising him, he owes her. Its as simple and as basic as that, as far as she's concerned. That he's not coming through is shirking his responsibilities. We have no right to have another child when we're not living up to our obligations.

 

Its not a 1 dimensional issue.

Dysfunction goes the other way, too. I know someone (very well) who barely made it thru school, had several kids out of wedlock before she married, was addicted to drugs, has no financial means of caring for herself or family...and her parents bailed her out every.single.time.

 

Her father always promised her he'd take care of her but then he died. No more bailouts. She's absolutely lost it emotionally many, many times since then. She seems to think there is money somewhere that is being held for her since her dad PROMISED her.

 

Her parents could have put their foot down many, many times but didn't.

 

ETA: This was for Impish. I think there is a huge difference between a family culture that cares for ALL the members, whatever the age, to the best of their ability and having a destructive relationship.

Oh, Hon, I know. You wouldn't believe some of the horrors I witnessed doing home care. I've seen and reported elder abuse...emotional, physical, financial.

 

As I said in an earlier response, I'm speaking from the reality I've lived/am living. I know my MIL isn't typical, but I also know that the pressure of being expected to care for an elderly relative is very stressful.

[nono]

I'm sorry, I didn't break up my post enough, that part was in reference to another idea that was floated by in the thread, not you. :grouphug:

 

Oh don't be sorry, because I'm usually pretty obtuse anyways when trying to convey thoughts. :tongue_smilie:

 

Martha, may your odds be more favorable than you predict! I always set my expectations low, and then am usually pleasantly surprised. But remember, I'm old and cranky. ;) Not trying to sway you any which way.

[cathmom]

 

Aren't we doing that anyways if we refuse to invest in our children now? If I refuse to spend money on my kids now that might benefit their futures later, how is that any different? Either way requires a sacrifice of the kids' future prospects to some level.

 

Investing in my kids is more likely to pay out than the stock market IMHO and might benefit us sooner and for longer than the same funds set aside for my retirement.

 

How does denying my children opportunities for educational, career, or personal growth now impact their future?

 

I don't think it is necessarily true that retirement is always the better investment. Especially when the bottom line for us is that it is a question of magnitude. What meager funds we could allot towards debt for our kids opportunities would never ever amount to anything worth a flip of retirement, but they might offer a leg up for our kids. Who knows if that will ever be repaid to us in retirement, but I figure it has a higher likelihood of payout than the stock market. I'm certainly less likely to look at it as money down the toilet if it doesn't directly pay off for me later.

 

this happened with my dh. I wish mil had invested in a decent high school for him instead of letting him go to the crappy public school!

 

Martha, we are in a similar situation - large family, not much money. I am beginning to focus on doing things with the older children. I hope to take my 2 oldest at home on a overseas trip next year while dh stays home with the others. And then the year after that, another trip to Sweden, which would hopefully set up an exchange for my child who is learning Swedish to be taken during high school. This is why I am teaching again this year, so I can fund some of these activities for my older children.

 

We are also looking into opportunities to spend a year abroad in 4-5 years, and I may try to do a PhD in Canada. As a language teacher who hasn't been able to travel very much because I've been busy having dc, I really want to change that now that they're getting older.

 

:grouphug:

[Garga]

Save for retirement.

[Denisemomof4]

There are costs involved even in home care. My MIL was able to keep my FIL home much longer because she renovated her bathroom. It was costly, but she had the money to do so.

 

There are significant financial factors to consider when there is a very ill person living in the home for a protracted period of time.

 

:iagree:oh, absolutely! I am shocked at the tens of thousands of dollars which were spend on medical care for my mother who had long term health care AND Blue Cross/medicare. That's not even including what she paid to renovate my bathroom to make it all handicap accessible.

 

I had to bring my mother home to live with us. Fortunately my parents had long term healthcare so I had 8 hours of help per day. Still, to have NO privacy and to become a boss was so difficult for me that I almost let all help go to handle it all myself.

 

My mother came into my home aty 67 with diabetes, ulcerative colitis, end stage dementia, wheelchair bound due to Parkinsons. She was only able to feed herself for the first couple of months. I spent hours per day just to get ample food and liquid into her. The days I was bone tired and NEEDED to go to bed early were the days her ulcerative colitis was acting up and I'd be up past midnight, gently washing her bottom and praying and crying and praying and crying, hoping beyond hope she wouldn't get another pressure sore or rash.

 

I had two days away while she was in the care of a trusted nurses aide, someone I knew years before I hired her, and my sister. BOTH times they didn't reposition her reclining wheelchair and she had another pressure sore. Which meant weeks in bed, washing hair in bed, showering in bed, constant changing of positions All Through The Night.

 

I did all of this while having a 9th grader and 5th grader in ps, and homeschooled my 2nd grader, with a RAD kid. My blood pressure soared and stress alone caused me to gain weight. I didn't eat much.

 

When we placed mom on Hospice so she could die in our home, a decision we all made and each family member was 100% certain it was what we'd do, I suffered horrific panic attacks and had to be medicated myself. I was taking her life AND her death into my own hands. I was TERRIFIED. My blood pressure medication being doubled and then tripled.

 

I know you're family is a family that cares for each other. But I can tell you FOR SURE that I truly didn't know what I was getting into before I brought my mother home. Would I do it all over again to give her the quality end of life that nobody else would? YOU BET!!!! But I know most people could NOT do what I had done. It would be unrealistic to think differently.

 

My parents were wealthy and because of their being able to buy long term health care, I could care for my mother in my home. I could NOT have paid for the machine which lifted her out of bed, onto the toilet, a machine I *DESPERATELY* needed and it cost $400 per month. It was a specialized machine. I could not have paid the thousands of dollars for renovations. I could not have paid for all the special foods she needed, on top of everything else. I could not have paid $800 for her medications alone, the portion of her medications that NONE of her insurance covered. I could not have paid for the rental of the hospital bed, or the specialized, circulating air mattress, the in home physical therapy, the visiting nurses when she NEEDED medical care but I couldn't bring her to the drs office or hospital, etc. The financial expense went well into the tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket above and beyond what all the insurances paid.

 

ETA: After writing ALL of the above, I think your situation is entirely different. You have TEN kids to help out, my parents had one. My parents had THREE kids, but two are mentally ill and were not capable of caring for her. I was the only one who could do it. Larger families have more helpers, but there's still the financial end to consider.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Denisemomof4

[Denisemomof4]

The reality of providing homecare is that it does take from the family. There's simply no way it cannot.

 

Time is taken.

Financial resources are taken.

Privacy, space is taken.

Energy is taken.

 

Counting on children to provide care for the elderly is mortgaging their future, and that of their future spouses and children.

 

I worked in home care. I watched families implode under the pressure. The pressure to keep Mom at home, to put mom in a facility. I've seen kids be hurt and resentful that Grandma took so much time, energy and finances that there was little left for them. I've watched spouses leave b/c they couldn't take it anymore. I've watched the adult children break under the stress and pressure.

 

Yes, it *can* be different if the aged parent is healthy and independant. Too often though, that's not the case, and the resulting situation leaves ppl caught off guard, and lives in chaos and ruins.

 

As parents, I think its our responsibility to consider the impact on our children's futures.

 

I can only agree with you, Imp, because I have BTDT. To someone that has not, they can't really understand the situation fully. Just hearing all of this can't even come close to comparing the EXPERIENCE of it.

 

Because *I* have lived this, I hope and pray that I will never be that big a burden on my husband and kids. Which is why the last time I hit my head HARD I was a complete wreck.

 

Then I joke about everyone wiping my arse. :tongue_smilie::lol::lol::lol:

[Denisemomof4]

That is a sad and pathetic statement of our societies value of family. I have no doubt you have seen it. So have I. I hope to raise my children with a healthier and less selfish perspective. I cared for my mother. I will care for dad most likely. I don't know how we did it. I don't know how we will do it. But I couldn't live with myself if I did any different. I won't resent it. My husband won't leave me over it.

 

 

 

 

 

not only did my husband not leave me over it, he didn't complain about the impacts on him, and the things he did, out of respect for my mom and her privacy, make me realize how lucky I am to have such a wonderful, fabulous, generous, loving man. I don't know what I've ever done to deserve him!:001_wub: He also awoke through the night to change mom's position so I could sleep. He'd awake to my crying and was there to comfort me. The experience burnt us out but brought us closer together at the same time.

 

I love that my dd11 has such a passion for the elderly and even volunteers her time at a local retirement home. She offered to give up her HOMESCHOOL GROUP to be able to have the opportunity to volunteer with the elderly, not that I'd do that. She can have both. And how she gushes when she comes home. She's so happy to be there. That is a gift and experience that money simply can't buy.

 

I SOOOOOOOOOO understand your teens not being able to get a paying job in this economy. I hadn't thought of it earlier, but I wonder if they could volunteer in a field they are interested in? Dd was told by the owner, on the FIRST day volunteering at the retirement home, that they would love to hire her when she was 15. For pay.:001_smile:

 

I guess I should stop reading here because I may end up replying 20 more times.;):tongue_smilie:

[lula]

I'm not addressing the whole my children will take care of me think simply because this plan feels so foreign to me that I don't think I am equipped to be part of the conversation. I also am ant-mission trips so I will be of no help there. (yes I am a complete curmudgeon!:)) That being said I think your concerns are completely valid and I think stating the dilemma is refreshing. You want to give your children more but are wrestling with the how to's and the priorities. I think this is something everyone has dealt with at one point. I am enamored with plans so here is what I would do: (but obviously what I would do is not necessarily what you should do!)

 

Yes, there is a big difference. But knowing how much you could actually come up with for payments can really help you determine what your options really are. And if you know it's possible to come up with $50 a month for experiences, then doing that might be a good place to start, with the expectation that it will either be savings for a future need or a jump start on paying back some planned debt when the next camp (or whatever) opportunity comes up. Like an emergency enrichment fund. :)

 

I think this is the best idea yet. Start saving now so you have money when an enrichment opportunity arises. This would be step one.

 

Step 2: Is there anyway anybody could make more money? As horrible as it sounds I have been in dire financial times before and frustratingly enough making more money was seriously the only way I could have more. (and at that point the more was really basic, things like insurance, getting the car fixed etc. but this question really never goes away when you want to do "more" often you have to come up with "more"

 

Step 3: How can gift money be allocated. Is there currently any gift budget for anything? Can gift money be used to provide experiences instead of things?

 

Step 4: I would focus on making sure that my children saw everything in the immediate area that they possibly could. Pretend that they are going to be experts on your area. What is there that is even a little interesting that could be made into an experience. Often we don't "travel" our immediate area and forget that some people actually vacation near where we live.

 

Step 5: I would focus on experiences for the older children that could benefit them immediately or in the next few years. What colleges are they interested in? What do they want to look into for a career? I would focus my energy on these things. I would only go in debt if the experience was directly linked to a concrete thing that would benefit my child. (I also would limit the debt to some amount that could be payed back in a short time frame)

 

Step 6: Think about a family trip, vacation or experience that you would ideally like to have. Price it out down to every detail to see if this is something that you could save up for even over a long time frame.

 

Step 7: Is there a temporary way to make more money to reach this goal? Sometimes when we have the goal in front of us with the real money it is helpful to go back to this question.

 

Once again, this is only what I think and honestly, I don't find my little steps always helpful but hey, I am addicted to planning even for things that are unplannable.

 

I think this question is one of the hardest questions we face as parents. Can I or should I do more for my children and at what cost to myself or the rest of my family?

 

(I am guessing that you may not frame the issue in terms of cost to self but for me that's an important consideration, not to be selfish but to be realistic. If I make decisions that ultimately make me crazy, destitute or completely frazzled my children end up in worse shape)

Edited July 26, 2011 by lula

[Sputterduck]

I also am ant-mission trips so I will be of no help there.

 

I don't want to derail the thread too bad, but why?

[lula]

ah, I think the derailing may be epic. ;D

Edited July 26, 2011 by lula

[Sputterduck]

ah, I think the derailing may be epic. ;D

 

Perhaps. It's just that I see that attitude pop up from time to time and I always wonder about it. We love the short term people who come down and, frankly, they make our year.

[Murphy101]

Lula -

I'm a list person, so thank you! I think I will spend the rest if this week contemplating this more deeply. I also want to sit down with dh and afterwards, with our oldest teens to discuss this and make some actual written goals and try to scheme some plan to reach this goals.

 

Perhaps. It's just that I see that attitude pop up from time to time and I always wonder about it. We love the short term people who come down and, frankly, they make our year.

 

I don't want to derail, nut maybe a brief detour that can be spun off if that isn't enough.

 

POSSIBLE reasons why people don't like mission trips, especially for teens, just off the top:

 

They aren't comfortable with the converting others theology in general.

They feel the money for the trip could be better used more directly by the missions.

They harbor hard sentiment about the history of some missions historically.

[Rosie_0801]

You could spend the money you are capable of squirreling away on their foreign language learning. That way they will be better prepared for foreign travel once they are able to fund it. It must be easier to get scholarships and other such opportunities if they can show dedication to learning the language at home? And if you are all learning the same language, every bit one person learns can be shared with the others.

 

Rosie

[snickelfritz]

Martha--about the traveling aspect....

 

I am one who sees great value in traveling. We've had lots of opportunities to travel with dh for work trips and we take advantage, as much as we can. None of them have included European, or off continent, travel.

 

I do think that travel within the U. S. is highly beneficial and can lead up to an ultimate goal of international travel. So, if you decide not to do the European thing, I don't think that all is lost. Airfare is cheaper and you aren't flying for hours and hours, so a long weekend can hit the high points for a stateside destination. Or you can pick a driving destination. Though I do think that at least flying once clears up a lot of that mystery.

 

Learning how to figure out public transportation and riding subways, buses, and trains, going through Chinatown or Little Italy, asking for directions and following a map, visiting Washington D. C., learning basic traveler safety, riding the train to Dallas to visit art museums, etc... I think there are lots of ways to build up "traveling intelligence" and the ability to adapt.

 

My parents were public school teachers and I didn't fly until college. But, we drove to every surrounding state for various vacations and also hit the Grand Canyon, San Antonio, saw the ocean at Padre, walked into Juarez (when it was still safe to do so), saw Pikes Peak, Mt. Rushmore, underground caverns, meteor craters, Old Faithful, etc.... All done frugally ( I can remember waking up to reconstituted milk and cereal in our hotel room) but I really probably only truly appreciate their efforts now that I have kids to try to enrich.:tongue_smilie:

[Lily_Grace]

 

So how do other boardies handle this balance? If you couldn't do some of your personal major goals for your family ir help your dc achieve some of theirs without significant debt - what would you do? How woud you do it? Care to share some examples?

 

Dh and I struggle with this, but ultimately feel that we cannot create avoidable debt to follow our dreams. We both grew up in families that did not take more than 8 hour drives in any direction. BUT, we also had families that taught us to value the things we did get and the places we did get to see. It wasn't necessary to travel the world to understand the wonders around us. We took the opportunities as they came and enjoyed them.

 

Our children, however, have been given a very different lifestyle. They have well used passports due to dh's job. At the same time, we also take our gifts as they come - we don't go out of our way to find experiences for our children. If it's not something that's doable without going into debt, we won't do it. I desperately want to see France and Egypt before we leave here, but it may not happen. We're committed first to paying down our car debt so little trips is all we take at the moment.

 

My dreams for my children will always outweigh my pocketbook, but I believe it's my job to instill in them a sense of curiosity and excitement so that as adults they can find themselves. Even if we lived in Podunk, Montana and never left the state during their childhood, it would be my job to expose them to the amazing things Montana has to offer. I want them to always be content with what they have instead of chasing after the 'more' that never fulfills them.

[Murphy101]

Good morning Erica!:)

 

I did travel the states lots as a child and I do remember it. Well most of it. Dad always insisted on starting the journey by car at 3am. I remember once we were in another state before we discovered I'd been so tired when I got in the car that I left my shoes at home. LOL I think I was 12.

[snickelfritz]

Good morning Erica!

 

I did travel the states lots as a child and I do remember it. Well most of it. Dad always insisted on starting the journey by car at 3am. I remember once we were in another state before we discovered I'd been so tired when I got in the car that I left my shoes at home. LOL I think I was 12.

 

Good morning. :D. Insomnia stinks. You're, probably, at least holding a cute little bundle.

 

My parents always did the early morning thing, too. I'll suggest it and my dh just looks at me like I've gone loony. He drives, so he picks.

[Murphy101]

Good morning. :D. Insomnia stinks. You're, probably, at least holding a cute little bundle.

 

My parents always did the early morning thing, too. I'll suggest it and my dh just looks at me like I've gone loony. He drives, so he picks.

 

My dh won't either. He will get up early, like 5:30 or 6 so we can all go eat breakfast at a pancake house first, which is something else we never did growing up. No stops! Eat your pop tart or jerky on the road and risk peeing your pants if you drank too much between designated pit stops.

 

Dh also feels bad if he doesn't let them have souvenirs, which are always ridiculously priced. I don't remember ever getting a souvenir I didn't buy with my own money. I still have the postcards I used to buy. Somewhere. I think.

 

Eta - yes. Babe in arms. I think he is having a growth spurt or something. Non stop nursing and fussing.

[Joyofsixreboot]

For our family avoiding debt trumps things or experiences. We don't do vacations. We only visit places on the free day. My kids go to camp on scholarship or work fundraisers. I think both choices (spending or not) have valid arguments pro and con. Each family must decide.

[Ummto4]

Martha, This is my perspective, from someone who didn't grow up in the US and actually lived in Asia (third world country) during childhood. Growing up, I was pretty well off - my parents are doctors. Still, we only traveled by car, exploring whatever our island could offer. The farthest one was a trip to Bali. I almost never traveled using an airplane. However, after high school, I managed to secure a scholarship to go to study in England. Once there, I traveled frugally to Europe (backpacking during vacation) with friends. I learned how to navigate underground, booked various ticket, applied for various visa, etc in various country in Europe. And I only knew English. So don't lose heart if you cant bring your teens out of the country. Teach them to create opportunity for themselves. Many people from third world countries wouldn't even dream of traveling far as young teens.... but many created opportunities for themselves, either via work, scholarship, business, etc later on in their lives. If they think that travel is important, then they'll make it happen. I see a lot of my friends from school whose work and education eventually enable them to travel out of country (in their 20s and 30s). Most travel to either Aussie or other Asian countries though. The fact that the cost of airplane ticket is going down nowadays (with lots of promotion thrown around)mreally enables some young people to travel frugally. Bottom line, always look for opportunities, and learn that foreign language. I thought I was doing well knowing English (as my second language) until I saw those European who can speak 5 languages ... And if you can, meet and speak with foreign students. Then you won't feel like you're depriving your children....

Edited July 26, 2011 by mom2moon2

[elegantlion]

Good morning Erica!:)

 

I did travel the states lots as a child and I do remember it. Well most of it. Dad always insisted on starting the journey by car at 3am. I remember once we were in another state before we discovered I'd been so tired when I got in the car that I left my shoes at home. LOL I think I was 12.

 

Goodness, I remember those days. Load the station wagon the night before. Then get up and go. My very laid back dad, slowwwww driver, would actually drive up 500 miles in one day, just so we could get it all in our two weeks.

[2squared]

My dreams for my children will always outweigh my pocketbook....I want them to always be content with what they have instead of chasing after the 'more' that never fulfills them.

 

Well said.

 

Some days I get so frustrated that money is in limited supply. We all want more for our kids than we can give them. Opportunities are endless. Sigh.

 

We do have a kid activity fund. We fund it every month and pull from it when opportunities come knocking - swimming lessons, wrestling camps, 4-H, etc. I know my dc are young yet and our wants/needs will increase as they get older. I can definitely see myself working part-time to fund opportunities for the kids.

[Parrothead]

I didn't read past page 7 so forgive me if this has already been suggested and shot down.

 

I don't know the ages of your kids, if they would be willing, able, etc. Could you send a couple of them to Europe at a time? Alone, just the two of them? Just go into enough debt to (take out a loan or some other fixed payment option) get them there and to let them have a bit of spending money for food.

 

For example the two oldest could go together with the expectation that they sleep in youth hostels, walk most everywhere they go, get part time work busing tables if needed and a guaranteed return flight six months later.

 

Work it so that by the time the next two are old enough to go, you've paid off that debt so you are credit worthy enough to do it again.

 

Make the kids research the destination. Maybe a pair of them want to go to South America instead. Maybe another set want to take a slow boat to Asia. Maybe a couple just want to backpack across Canada. They should plan their trip, get it approved by you and dh then just go for it. Give them a limit of how much you can realistically afford to get them there and back and cover a bit of food costs.

 

Will they go hungry? Probably at some point. Will they be exhausted? Most days. Will it be one of the best experiences of their lives? Most likely.

 

They would get more life experience out of something like this than they would going on vacation to Europe for a week with mom and dad.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Murphy101]

Chucki -

 

From a mothering perspective that sounds both amazing and nauseating.;)

 

I will contemplate it.

[HoneyFernDotOrg]

I have people coming and thus didn't read the whole thing, so I apologize if I am repeating (and will come back to read this because I am interested in the answers of others!!).

 

There are volunteer organizations that you can contact overseas. Commit, say, 6 months as a family and they will lodge/feed you (mostly infrastructure projects, not necessarily a mission-type thing). All you do is get to where you are going and then you get a culturally authentic experience with your family that doesn't throw you into massive debt overload (maybe some, but not so much that the future is mortgaged). You could also tutor in English while you are volunteering and make some pocket money. I am a Buddhist, but we run a food bank out of a Methodist church (my secular school) and the pastor has said that there are Methodist missions all over the world who would love volunteers, and not for conversions or anything necessarily religious (although there are opportunities that way, too).

 

These opportunities are not hard to find, but be thorough as you investigate them. I vote "yes" to experiences outside of books, and a H*LL no!" to going completely underwater to have them.

[justamouse]

Chucki that is an awesome idea.

[Anne]

Without coming down on any particular side, but in trying to address the OP's call for specific criteria for making these hard choices I offer this: is there a specific talent or opportunity that might expire without immediate intervention?

 

In my opinion, travel abroad is one of the easiest things to obtain later. All it takes is money and desire. Sometimes not even money - there are things like military service or teaching English. I didn't travel abroad until I was 27 but boy did I make up for it big time. I would also say my experiences are far richer (living in China, backpacking across India) than many of my peers who were able to do a semester abroad at 19. I do thank my parents for feeding my interests and desire through museum visits and such, but we were far too poor for anything other than National Park visits for our family vacations (fond memories BTW, and ones I'm trying to re-create with my son).

 

Something like nurturing a particular talent or gift would come before travel if I had to make a choice (and I value travel a lot!)

 

 

:iagree:

 

Anne

[NorthwestMom]

Perhaps your teens could be exchange students. I went to India for 9 months through the Rotary program many years ago. All I had to pay for was airfare and spending money; I was housed with local families and given a stipend from the Rotarians.

 

http://www.rotary.org/en/studentsandyouth/youthprograms/rotaryyouthexchange/Pages/ridefault.aspx

[justamouse]

Goodness, I remember those days. Load the station wagon the night before. Then get up and go. My very laid back dad, slowwwww driver, would actually drive up 500 miles in one day, just so we could get it all in our two weeks.

 

Yup, that's the way we spent two weeks each summer, too. We saw so much of the US that way.

[Murphy101]

Perhaps your teens could be exchange students. I went to India for 9 months through the Rotary program many years ago. All I had to pay for was airfare and spending money; I was housed with local families and given a stipend from the Rotarians.

 

http://www.rotary.org/en/studentsandyouth/youthprograms/rotaryyouthexchange/Pages/ridefault.aspx

 

 

Hmmm. I always thought rotary was a form of Freemasons, which Catholics are verboten from participating in. I'll have to look into that, but if it is, that would be a no-go for us. Off to research....

 

Either way, thanks for the suggestion!:)