Ham strikes again...this time he goes after SWB in earnest

[Paisley Hedgehog]

You know what? I am angry. Other secular homeschoolers have mentioned they don't have a dog in this fight but I do, SWB ... I know I lose. I depend on her. She has been the backbone to my homeschool since the beginning. So yes I have a dog in this fight. And I'm angry. I'm intolerant. And I'm just plain fed up with Ken Ham and his ilk.

 

You go, girl! :cheers2:

[simka2]

things about both people, and honestly, it's just not that big of a deal to me. If everyone would stop complaining about what the other one said or did, the subject would lose steam, and we could go back to agreeing to disagree.

 

Mindy, not going to flame you at all!!! :D I'm quoteing you because I think you stated something many are feeling. I know many want it to just go away.

 

And Ken Ham has just announced on his facebook page that he'll be posting a blog later today attacking Enns and his supporters.

This is what I meant by going on the "offense," verses what many are doing here by "defending" Susan. (not that we need to she seems like a tough cookie ;))

 

To my knowledge it is Mr. Ham who won't let this go. Please take that into consideration.

[kchara]

You know what? I am angry. Other secular homeschoolers have mentioned they don't have a dog in this fight but I do, SWB. I also lack tolerance. I lack tolerance for Ken Ham's attack on Susan's ability to earn a living, which for me has been the crux of the matter all along. At the conference where this whole kerfluffle began, he attacked her Christianity which in some Christian minds brings doubts pertaining to her educational materials then causing her to lose business. When she loses business, it becomes harder for her to stay in business. And then there was yesterday which could not have been a more blatant attack on her livelihood if there ever was one. If SWB cannot continue to provide educational materials to the homeschool world then we all lose (and that's beside the fact the harm it causes her and her family). I know I lose. I depend on her. She has been the backbone to my homeschool since the beginning. So yes I have a dog in this fight. And I'm angry. I'm intolerant. And I'm just plain fed up with Ken Ham and his ilk.

 

:iagree: And I'm not a secular homeschooler. I'm a Christian who is a YE conservative. And I'm ANGRY that this is happening, and is being continued. Even Peter and Paul disagreed with each other. It happens, and it will continue to happen until Christ returns. But it drags Christ's name through the mud when we go on and on, posting and attacking and "warning" (really, who does this guy think he is???) other believers about brothers and sisters in Christ. He's walking an incredibly dangerous line, spiritually, he's dragging innocent parties into it, and he's misrepresenting my religion and, more importantly, my Savior. So, yeah, I'm ticked. And I think I have every right to be.

[OnTheBrink]

And Ken Ham has just announced on his facebook page that he'll be posting a blog later today attacking Enns and his supporters.

 

Can you post a link to this? I'm on his FB page now and am not seeing this.

 

I found it; This is what it says:

 

Who said this?: Option 4 " Accept Paul’s understanding of human origins as scientifically accurate and reject evolution...

"The fourth option is untenable as members of the human race in the twenty-first century. Ignoring the scientific and archaeological evidence is not an option. The first option, rejecting Christianity, is more viable than the fourth..." WATCH FOR MY BLOG TODAY TO FIND OUT

 

The thread goes on with comments from others and he affirms he'll be posting on his blog who said this and who supports it.

Edited April 5, 2011 by OnTheBrink

[HollyBee]

Can you post a link to this? I'm on his FB page now and am not seeing this.

 

Scroll down a bit...the post starts with, "Who said this? Option 4" etc., then ends with WATCH MY BLOG. It says it was posted 2 hours ago.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Can you post a link to this? I'm on his FB page now and am not seeing this.

 

I found it; This is what it says:

 

 

 

The thread goes on with comments from others and he affirms he'll be posting on his blog who said this and who supports it.

 

I see that you found it, but just wanted to add a direct link for others:

 

 

It's a teaser that doesn't mention Enns by name, but a poster named Annette guessed that he was talking about Enns. KH responded by saying:

Very perceptive Annette--wait till you see the rest of it and who endorses it etc--my blog will be posted late morning

 

(I have to laugh when KH calls Annette perceptive. He's been beating this topic to death for almost three weeks now. Doesn't take a whole lot of perception to figure that one out.)

[Jen500]

So who else is Ham attacking? I know some Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, and other families of other Christian denominations who are open to discussion about creation/evolution and whose churches don't require certain beliefs on various controversial subjects.

[Holly IN]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

[Michele B]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

Some of us feel this is important. :001_smile:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I find I'm able to provide a superior homeschool education for my children and keep up with current events.

 

I think that keeping up with current events will help us all retain our freedoms to educate our children at home.

[KnitWit]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

One is not required to read all threads here to be a member. :)

[kchara]

So who else is Ham attacking? I know some Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, and other families of other Christian denominations who are open to discussion about creation/evolution and whose churches don't require certain beliefs on various controversial subjects.

 

I know he's been going after the Nazarenes on his blog. http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2011/03/30/more-sad-compromise-in-the-church/

 

I'm not 100% sure on their beliefs, but, apparently, they're too liberal for his taste.

[Michele B]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

I teach my children to pick and choose their battles. I let many things go; this is one I have picked and chosen. :)

[OnTheBrink]

Some of us feel this is important. :001_smile:

 

Especially since some of us attend churches that support KH, I think this is very important.

 

I find I'm able to provide a superior homeschool education for my children and keep up with current events.

 

I think that keeping up with current events will help us all retain our freedoms to educate our children at home.

 

Amen.

 

And, my dd is currently in the shower. I draw the line at shower-schooling. ;)

[SonshineLearner]

:iagree:

 

IAnd, to find out yesterday that he was involved a few years ago in getting Sonlight banned from the Colorado convention *and* he is promoting his own Bible and History curricula now makes my blood boil!

 

Seriously? He was one of the ones involved with Sonlight getting banned? I always thought that was weird!! I mean... they are one of quite a few to have secular books. You can't quite have a good education without some secular books....

 

I am really sad about this whole thing. Theology, and right theology is important. BUT, one does not need to attack a persons Christianity to privately speak with them about differences. And, doing so in a public forum, before going through privately about them, doesn't seem right. Also, a HS conference, just doesn't sound right either... ALSO, when you are doing your own curriculum, that just sounds a teeny bit like wanting more profits yourself.

 

Very Sad!! Sounds like some Peacemakers type of thing would be good... Or a pastor who could work through this...

 

I am very sad to think of verbal attacks continuing. In the end, this means that WE get less to choose from....

 

Sorry for SWB ;(

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

We're on Spring Break here. :001_smile:

 

Some of us feel this is important. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: I went to a Christian high school that (at the time) was filled with lots of fiery rhetoric aimed at fellow Christians who didn't see things exactly as they did. I saw the damage that was done in God's name. (Thankfully they have mellowed out in recent years.)

[elegantlion]

I find I'm able to provide a superior homeschool education for my children and keep up with current events.

 

I think that keeping up with current events will help us all retain our freedoms to educate our children at home.

 

Amen. We don't start school until 10:30, so I have 12 more minutes to catch up. :D

 

I teach my children to pick and choose their battles. I let many things go; this is one I have picked and chosen. :)

 

 

Agreed.

[Mrs Mungo]

So who else is Ham attacking? I know some Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, and other families of other Christian denominations who are open to discussion about creation/evolution and whose churches don't require certain beliefs on various controversial subjects.

 

Exactly. Does he *really* want to draw this line in the sand? Is he drunk on power? Does he think there are more YEC who LOVE the idea of EVERYONE else going to hell than anyone else? What is his deal? YUCK! I honestly cannot believe that Diana Waring is aligning herself with this, it makes me really sad.

 

I find I'm able to provide a superior homeschool education for my children and keep up with current events.

I think that keeping up with current events will help us all retain our freedoms to educate our children at home.

 

:iagree:My kids are right here beside me, working away.

[stephanier.1765]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

One of the reasons I enjoy being a homeschooler is because I prefer not being told what to do and how to do it. Like others have said, this is important. It's certainly important to me. So I'll pass on the chill pill. Kthanx.

[pdalley]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

I think this is a great chance to teach my oldest how to formulate an logical argument and for the rest of them that words matter and have the power to destroy.

 

My kids work pretty independently and the one who doesn't finished school already. The other two are almost done. Me? I can multitask. :001_smile:

 

Besides, thanks to the pinched nerve in my shoulder I have to sit and put a hot pack on it. I might as well make use of the time.

[EJCMom]

I'm physically incapable of :chillpill:ing when someone is being maligned and defamed.

[Jennifer3141]

And, my dd is currently in the shower. I draw the line at shower-schooling. ;)

 

So potty schooling is probably out too, right? :D

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Further, if we are talking theology, I truly believe that a person's *behavior* tells more about their theology than their logical (illogical:tongue_smilie:) explanations.

:iagree:My husband was just saying the exact same thing.

[KnitWit]

I think this is a great chance to teach my oldest how to formulate an logical argument and for the rest of them that words matter and have the power to destroy.

 

 

 

Oh yes, there is LOTS of discussion going on in my home about many, many things surrounding ALL of this! This *is* a learning situation for my kids. :)

[pdalley]

So potty schooling is probably out too, right? :D

 

 

Am I the only one who makes my kids take their math worksheet or current reading material in the bathroom if they have to uh spend time there?:001_huh:

 

(I'm joking)

[elegantlion]

I think this is a great chance to teach my oldest how to formulate an logical argument and for the rest of them that words matter and have the power to destroy.

 

 

We started ethics last week. I think we'll use this kerfluffle as a discussion point today.

[Mrs Mungo]

Am I the only one who makes my kids take their math worksheet or current reading material in the bathroom if they have to uh spend time there?:001_huh:

 

(I'm joking)

 

Hm. I am seriously considering this. I have clipboards. ;)

[Jennifer3141]

Am I the only one who makes my kids take their math worksheet or current reading material in the bathroom if they have to uh spend time there?:001_huh:

 

(I'm joking)

 

 

Well, that happens to be where I get the majority of my magazine reading done so I don't mind if my kids read in there too. But so far, I have restrained from chasing them down in there with their mathbooks. Someday... :D

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Am I the only one who makes my kids take their math worksheet or current reading material in the bathroom if they have to uh spend time there?:001_huh:

 

(I'm joking)

 

I'm glad you added that! I was going to say, "Yes! You are the only one!"

 

:lol:

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Am I the only one who makes my kids take their math worksheet or current reading material in the bathroom if they have to uh spend time there?:001_huh:

 

(I'm joking)

 

One of my sons does a lot of potty schooling.

[Word Nerd]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

That's rather condescending—not to mention a false dichotomy.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Can you guys take a :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:?? I wrote a long response but decided against it. How about all of us take a chill pill and go back to educating our children?? :grouphug:

 

IMHO Mr. Ham needs to :chillpill: He truly is the one who keeps stirring the pot IMO.

[HollyBee]

IMHO Mr. Ham needs to :chillpill: He truly is the one who keeps stirring the pot IMO.

 

Yep, :iagree:

 

His new blog post attacking Dr. Enns is up. Sigh. :glare:

[OnTheBrink]

So potty schooling is probably out too, right? :D

 

Well, potty schooling wouldn't be bad...at least the math book would stay dry, presumably. LOL

[OnTheBrink]

The blog post

[AvasMom]

Am I the only one who makes my kids take their math worksheet or current reading material in the bathroom if they have to uh spend time there?:001_huh:

 

(I'm joking)

 

Um, I do. And I'm not even joking. :D My ds will sit in there for hours, enjoying his convenient excuse to not do work. I'm not about to go for that. I bring his math in to him on the pot if he forgets it. :D

[AvasMom]

Yep, :iagree:

 

His new blog post attacking Dr. Enns is up. Sigh. :glare:

 

Dude, he is going after a Nazarene university in my small hometown. Getting a little personal...:glare:

[angela in ohio]

The blog post

 

It's "a part," not "apart."

 

And here's the book you must buy if you are afraid you might accidentally be brainwashed into believing something you don't just by attending a homeschool conference where Enns speaks.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

And the previous post of his using scare tactics to tell people to join HSLDA. ugh. I like HSLDA, and I think that's icky. And in the previous post he talks about their 1,000 extra visitors, but fails to mention that the museum was free that day. Okay, I have to close that window before my head explodes...

Edited April 5, 2011 by angela in ohio

[kchara]

It's "a part," not "apart."

 

And here's the book you must buy if you are afraid you might accidentally be brainwashed into believing something you don't just by attending a homeschool conference where Enns speaks.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Uh huh, exactly what I thought, too. :glare: Makes me ill.

[pdalley]

Um, I do. And I'm not even joking. :D My ds will sit in there for hours, enjoying his convenient excuse to not do work. I'm not about to go for that. I bring his math in to him on the pot if he forgets it. :D

 

I do have one like this and I cured him by sending his work in there with him if I could. Now he goes in and does what he needs to do and gets back to work.

 

(That's what made me think of it actually.)

[Cricket]

I think this is a great chance to teach my oldest how to formulate an logical argument and for the rest of them that words matter and have the power to destroy.

 

My kids work pretty independently and the one who doesn't finished school already. The other two are almost done. Me? I can multitask. :001_smile:

 

Besides, thanks to the pinched nerve in my shoulder I have to sit and put a hot pack on it. I might as well make use of the time.

 

I think one reason something like this can really take off and develop a life of its own is because of the medium used. Short, inflammatory comments posted on FB or short articles on a blog don't invite or even require discourse and debate. Everyone is so quick to pick a side and then it all goes downhill from there. If parties were actually face to face at a table, calming discussing things, it would be so much better.

 

I don't even pretend to understand all of what is going on. Personally, I had never heard of Peter Enns before all this. I haven't read his books so I don't have an opinion on his views one way or the other. One issue I have with Ham is that he started flinging accusations and dirt in a public way. If he had an issue with Enns, why didn't he, as a Christian brother, talk to him privately? I don't have a problem with Ham stating his opinion on someone else's curriculum, it is how he is doing it. From what little I've read, Enns doesn't seem to have left the bounds of Christian orthodoxy. Maybe someone has evidence of this? We are blessed with the two pastors we have in our church. They truly are leading in a humble way. I know they aren't perfect but they have really opened my eyes to how Christians should deal with controversy and problems. From FB posts by Ham, he seems so arrogant and gleeful in this whole situation. It is very disturbing and disgusting. The way he posted this morning to announce his upcoming blog post was shameful. The way he is pulling in people from the sidelines is awful. Even if he is on the "right" side (if there are even sides!), UGH!

[Gooblink]

It's "a part," not "apart."

 

And here's the book you must buy if you are afraid you might accidentally be brainwashed into believing something you don't just by attending a homeschool conference where Enns speaks.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

And the previous post of his using scare tactics to tell people to join HSLDA. ugh. I like HSLDA, and I think that's icky.

 

Wow. After reading that blog post, I think Ken Ham has a really low opinion of his audience.

[pdalley]

It's "a part," not "apart."

 

And here's the book you must buy if you are afraid you might accidentally be brainwashed into believing something you don't just by attending a homeschool conference where Enns speaks.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

And the previous post of his using scare tactics to tell people to join HSLDA. ugh. I like HSLDA, and I think that's icky. And in the previous post he talks about their 1,000 extra visitors, but fails to mention that the museum was free that day. Okay, I have to close that window before my head explodes...

 

 

After reading that I am having flashbacks to my experiences at used car lots with high pressure salesmen who engage in double speak and leave a lot of things out to make a sale.

 

I think I'll call up my Pastor and thank her for being her. And my Associate Pastor and thank her for being her. For delivering the Word every Sunday without using scare tactics and demonstrating the love of God.

[elegantlion]

It's "a part," not "apart."

 

And here's the book you must buy if you are afraid you might accidentally be brainwashed into believing something you don't just by attending a homeschool conference where Enns speaks.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

And the previous post of his using scare tactics to tell people to join HSLDA. ugh. I like HSLDA, and I think that's icky. And in the previous post he talks about their 1,000 extra visitors, but fails to mention that the museum was free that day. Okay, I have to close that window before my head explodes...

 

:iagree: *shudders*

[GailV]

Wow. After reading that blog post, I think Ken Ham has a really low opinion of his audience.

 

In my head his voice sounds remarkably like Robert Preston in The Music Man.

 

I'm pretty sure Buddy Hackett is running around behind the bleachers calling out "pure boys!", too.

[plansrme]

From Ken Ham's blog about old-earth creationists speaking at Moody Bible Institute:

 

"How we need Christian institutions to take a stand against the pagan religion of millions of years (yes, it is a part of the pagan religion of atheism to explain life without God) and stand uncompromisingly on the authority of the Word of God—from the very first verse."

 

And here I thought I was an old-earth Christian, and now I find out that I'm actually pagan. So my fellow pagans, do I need to get some black robes, some cool headgear, what??? Naturally, I want to be the best pagan possible, so is there Pagan 101 that I need to read? Paganism for Dummies? Please enlighten.

 

Your New Pagan Friend,

Terri

[stephanier.1765]

From Ken Ham's blog about old-earth creationists speaking at Moody Bible Institute:

 

"How we need Christian institutions to take a stand against the pagan religion of millions of years (yes, it is a part of the pagan religion of atheism to explain life without God) and stand uncompromisingly on the authority of the Word of God—from the very first verse."

 

And here I thought I was an old-earth Christian, and now I find out that I'm actually pagan. So my fellow pagans, do I need to get some black robes, some cool headgear, what??? Naturally, I want to be the best pagan possible, so is there Pagan 101 that I need to read? Paganism for Dummies? Please enlighten.

 

Your New Pagan Friend,

Terri

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[AvasMom]

From Ken Ham's blog about old-earth creationists speaking at Moody Bible Institute:

 

"How we need Christian institutions to take a stand against the pagan religion of millions of years (yes, it is a part of the pagan religion of atheism to explain life without God) and stand uncompromisingly on the authority of the Word of God—from the very first verse."

 

And here I thought I was an old-earth Christian, and now I find out that I'm actually pagan. So my fellow pagans, do I need to get some black robes, some cool headgear, what??? Naturally, I want to be the best pagan possible, so is there Pagan 101 that I need to read? Paganism for Dummies? Please enlighten.

 

Your New Pagan Friend,

Terri

 

*scratching head* Errr, I thought sure paganism was polytheistic, earth-based, etc. (I forget what the defining terms are...forgive me pagan posters) Doesn't athiest mean NON belief in any god? How exactly are poly- and a- synonyms?

[Slartibartfast]

I know I'll be flamed for this, but I'll go ahead. I've seen just as much hatred, anger, and lack of tolerance from the SWB side (not her personally, but on this forum). Just like some people have said they don't want to use WTM or SOTW, there have been plenty of other people that say they'll never use AIG because of this public fiasco. I guess I'm just saying that everything the "other side" is being accused of is something I've seen in some form on "this side" of the fence. At least as far as people commenting and blogging, not the actual people involved. Personally, I didn't see anything ANGRY in Hamm's blog post. I like a lot of Hamm's things. I like and use a lot of SWB's curriculum. I've heard bad things about both people, and honestly, it's just not that big of a deal to me. If everyone would stop complaining about what the other one said or did, the subject would lose steam, and we could go back to agreeing to disagree. Hamm disagrees with Enns and SWB. So what? Really, is anyone surprised that two people disagree on creation? Obviously most people disagree about creation! As for trumping higher degrees over lower degrees, I don't think degrees are the end all, be all. Someone can be an expert on a particular subject without earning a degree (as classical educators have themselves claimed). I'm just kind of over judgemental homeschoolers. Sorry, flame away.

 

Anytime we choose someone's materials to teach our children we have invited them into our home. We have given them our trust with our children's education. That is a pretty big deal, some people might mess with curriculem and change with the seasons but we took our decision seriously.

 

The issue isn't about who believes what in regard to creation. The point is attacking other Christians and speaking as if we are being naively mislead by evil doers.

 

I do actually mind, particularly when we took so much time and thought to research and come to our own conclusions.

 

I mind when someone reads an inflammtory article and then comes to conclusions that aren't just different based on their own beliefs but flat out wrong.

 

Of course someone might have different beliefs about creation but I think we all agree a lie is a sin right? I do believe manipulating quotes, misleading others, spreading mistruths are all sins. I believe they are much bigger sins than being unsure about the exact nature of the creation story.

[Violet Crown]

So who else is Ham attacking? I know some Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, and other families of other Christian denominations who are open to discussion about creation/evolution and whose churches don't require certain beliefs on various controversial subjects.

Well, he had this to say about the Catholics in January:

 

"Bottom line: if the Pope believes in the Big Bang and the Pope believes Genesis is an allegory, he is teaching something that contradicts and undermines the Word of God."

 

Of course, the Pope's thoughts on exegesis of Genesis are far more nuanced than "it's an allegory"--perhaps breathless newspaper articles aren't the best place to discover the theology of other Christians--but I doubt that matters much to Ham.