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AvasMom

Ham strikes again...this time he goes after SWB in earnest

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This post is a complete and total distortion of my review. Read the whole review here: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

In no way did I "endorse" any theory of evolution or any theory about Adam.

 

I praised the book for asking difficult questions and suggested that we should all do the same.

 

I have tried to contact AiG directly, since Mr. Ham has made such a point of talking about Biblical confrontation. I have so far been unable to even leave a message.

 

I am posting this publicly because this was a public attack.

 

To follow it with an endorsement for his own history curriculum: I don't even know what to say. I feel sick.

 

SWB

 

:grouphug:

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Well, as far as I can see, the "relationship" between Ham and VF amounts to one post on Ham's Facebook page. Hopefully that will be the extent of it.

 

I run from anything resembling patriarchy. I have five daughters and one mean feminist streak:D.

 

Lisa

 

No, there's more to it than that:

 

http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2008/07/4089/ this is from July of '08.

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This post is a complete and total distortion of my review. Read the whole review here: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

In no way did I "endorse" any theory of evolution or any theory about Adam.

 

I praised the book for asking difficult questions and suggested that we should all do the same.

 

I have tried to contact AiG directly, since Mr. Ham has made such a point of talking about Biblical confrontation. I have so far been unable to even leave a message.

 

I am posting this publicly because this was a public attack.

 

To follow it with an endorsement for his own history curriculum: I don't even know what to say. I feel sick.

 

SWB

 

:grouphug: I'm so sorry.

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No, there's more to it than that:

 

http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2008/07/4089/ this is from July of '08.

 

Thanks for the link. I find Phillips' words interesting:

 

"In a day and age when an ungodly territoriality and other Satanically-inspired confusion deceptions are often used as wedges to prevent ministries from working with each other—thus diminishing the effective witness of the Body of Christ—"

 

 

Wedges? Deceptions? Diminishing the Body of Christ?

 

Interesting.

Lisa

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After Ham's FB post today, it is now quite apparent why he is throwing Susan under the bus. They are offering discounts on this.

 

"Ever since I uploaded my blog post recently about Susan Wise Bauer’s endorsement of Peter Enns’ positions in favor of evolution and against a real Adam my Facebook page has had a stream of requests for my recommendation of a trustworthy, biblically accurate world history curriculum.

Our staff actually started seeking out the best possible author several years ago, and after a pretty intense evaluation of the various author’s existing materials, we entered a special publishing relationship with Diana Waring ."

 

Wait....where did she *endorse* Enns' positions re. Adam and evolution? I don't see that. Perhaps I missed it but if not than this he is lying here and making a profit from it. I have a big problem with that...to say the least.

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When I read about conservative christians not feeling welcome on this board...I want to give them a big :grouphug:. My issues with Ham have nothing to do with conservative christianity, in many ways I am a conservative christian.

 

That said, CHARACTER really matters to me! What a leader does under pressure really matters to me! No, I could not endorse Ham after what I have seen, but I still love and welcome with open arms my YE brothers and sisters. Apologia has some great resources ;).

 

On a personal note: I have watched someone I admired fall from a great height. Yes, it was also a conservative christian male. As he was falling, he went into a serious tailspin and took many people with him. When I realized how many people I had wrongly thought ill of just becasue they had tried to show me the danger, I grieve. I had believed him when he said he was the victim. I was wrong.

 

Now, my story only loosely parallels what is going on here. As a result of it, I have great compassion on those who are watching someone they admire commit some unconscionable acts. :grouphug:s!

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This post is a complete and total distortion of my review. Read the whole review here: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

In no way did I "endorse" any theory of evolution or any theory about Adam.

 

I praised the book for asking difficult questions and suggested that we should all do the same.

 

I have tried to contact AiG directly, since Mr. Ham has made such a point of talking about Biblical confrontation. I have so far been unable to even leave a message.

 

I am posting this publicly because this was a public attack.

 

To follow it with an endorsement for his own history curriculum: I don't even know what to say. I feel sick.

 

SWB

 

At this point I would have your attorney contacting them/him. Not to sound all Doug Phillips about it but he needs to know what is and is not acceptable legally. Having an attitude is one thing, this is just taking it too far into waters I'm not sure he wants to tread in. What a jerkface. Sorry all this is happening. We all think you're awesome. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

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This post is a complete and total distortion of my review. Read the whole review here: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

In no way did I "endorse" any theory of evolution or any theory about Adam.

 

I praised the book for asking difficult questions and suggested that we should all do the same.

 

I have tried to contact AiG directly, since Mr. Ham has made such a point of talking about Biblical confrontation. I have so far been unable to even leave a message.

 

I am posting this publicly because this was a public attack.

 

To follow it with an endorsement for his own history curriculum: I don't even know what to say. I feel sick.

 

SWB

 

:grouphug:

 

This is sickening! His actions only push me away from EVER purchasing AIG materials!

 

(...making a mental list of things I need from PHP...wishing I had more $ to "vote" with...)

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At this point I would have your attorney contacting them/him. Not to sound all Doug Phillips about it but he needs to know what is and is not acceptable legally. Having an attitude is one thing, this is just taking it too far into waters I'm not sure he wants to tread in. What a jerkface. Sorry all this is happening. We all think you're awesome. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

:iagree: Especially after reading this follow up post: "I was horrified when I read your article this weekend. I had not put together yet that I actually owned curriculum by Susan Wise Bauer until then. I spent many hours over the weekend researching and finally ordered Mystery of History 1." I think Susan has a real case.

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Thanks for the link. I find Phillips' words interesting:

 

"In a day and age when an ungodly territoriality and other Satanically-inspired confusion deceptions are often used as wedges to prevent ministries from working with each other—thus diminishing the effective witness of the Body of Christ—"

 

 

Wedges? Deceptions? Diminishing the Body of Christ?

 

Interesting.

Lisa

 

disturbing! (does anyone else feel the need to edit his writing??)

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:iagree: Especially after reading this follow up post: "I was horrified when I read your article this weekend. I had not put together yet that I actually owned curriculum by Susan Wise Bauer until then. I spent many hours over the weekend researching and finally ordered Mystery of History 1." I think Susan has a real case.

 

:iagree: I hope you all at PHP are taking screenshots. Insinuating that your curricula has demonic influences and then people following up with comments like the above? Definite libel case, imo.

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:iagree: Especially after reading this follow up post: "I was horrified when I read your article this weekend. I had not put together yet that I actually owned curriculum by Susan Wise Bauer until then. I spent many hours over the weekend researching and finally ordered Mystery of History 1." I think Susan has a real case.

 

Well, I believe he's made his intentions quite clear. He's trying to eliminate the competition. It's all about money - really.

 

Nothing irritates me more than cut and past hack jobs. Taking parts of works out of context to prove your point means you really don't have one. I saw that he'd done that with Dr. Enns' curriculum sample. Now he's doing it to Dr. Bauer.

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:grouphug:, Susan.

 

My heart is heavy for you and have been in prayer (along with countless others, I'm sure) for comfort, strength, wisdom, and peace for you.

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:iagree: Especially after reading this follow up post: "I was horrified when I read your article this weekend. I had not put together yet that I actually owned curriculum by Susan Wise Bauer until then. I spent many hours over the weekend researching and finally ordered Mystery of History 1." I think Susan has a real case.

 

Yep. I'd be tearin' through some printer ink and paper getting all this documented.

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This post is a complete and total distortion of my review. Read the whole review here: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

In no way did I "endorse" any theory of evolution or any theory about Adam.

 

I praised the book for asking difficult questions and suggested that we should all do the same.

 

I have tried to contact AiG directly, since Mr. Ham has made such a point of talking about Biblical confrontation. I have so far been unable to even leave a message.

 

I am posting this publicly because this was a public attack.

 

To follow it with an endorsement for his own history curriculum: I don't even know what to say. I feel sick.

 

SWB

 

Susan, I am just soooooooo sorry.

 

1 Corinthians 1: 11-13 just keeps coming to mind. Sigh.....

 

Faith

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:iagree: Especially after reading this follow up post: "I was horrified when I read your article this weekend. I had not put together yet that I actually owned curriculum by Susan Wise Bauer until then. I spent many hours over the weekend researching and finally ordered Mystery of History 1." I think Susan has a real case.

 

On another board, a poster said that due to recent events, she was researching history curriculum to replace the curriculum she loves (i.e., SOTW).

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From the VF blog:

I closed my part of the event Friday night with “The Promise: The Power and Blessings of the Fifth Commandment†in which I presented more than twenty Scriptures that address the imperative of honorable speech, conduct, and behavior within the Christian family and society as a whole.

I have no words.

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This post is a complete and total distortion of my review. Read the whole review here: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

In no way did I "endorse" any theory of evolution or any theory about Adam.

 

I praised the book for asking difficult questions and suggested that we should all do the same.

 

I have tried to contact AiG directly, since Mr. Ham has made such a point of talking about Biblical confrontation. I have so far been unable to even leave a message.

 

I am posting this publicly because this was a public attack.

 

To follow it with an endorsement for his own history curriculum: I don't even know what to say. I feel sick.

 

SWB

 

I feel sick with you...

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Thanks for the link. I find Phillips' words interesting:

 

"In a day and age when an ungodly territoriality and other Satanically-inspired confusion deceptions are often used as wedges to prevent ministries from working with each other—thus diminishing the effective witness of the Body of Christ—"

 

 

Wedges? Deceptions? Diminishing the Body of Christ?

 

Interesting.

Lisa

 

Yeah. The more I read, the more sickened I become with this association between Ham and Phillips. This is very disheartening, indeed. I'd had no idea of the connection between ICR and Ham before today and ICR and VF.

 

Which, makes the dismissal from GHC more confusing, since they said they had asked an ICR guy to speak instead of Ham. Maybe someone can clear this up for me; from where I sit (in my comfy recliner), it's a convoluted mess.

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His latest facebook post is interesting. He thinks secularists should be more tolerant to Christians...:lol: and stop with the personal attacks.:rofl:

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Which, makes the dismissal from GHC more confusing, since they said they had asked an ICR guy to speak instead of Ham.
They asked a CMI guy to speak instead of Ham.

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His latest facebook post is interesting. He thinks secularists should be more tolerant to Christians...:lol: and stop with the personal attacks.:rofl:

 

Yeah, the principal of reaping and sowing seems to be lost in this case.

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They asked a CMI guy to speak instead of Ham.

 

Oh, I thought it was an IRC guy. Well, that eliminates that part of the confusion, then. LOL

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Well, I believe he's made his intentions quite clear. He's trying to eliminate the competition. It's all about money - really.

 

Exactly. He could debate the views he disagrees with without encouraging others not to buy certain products. The fact that told others what not to buy at a conference is very telling. You can tell people what type of materials you think they should avoid without naming names.

 

I would hope that the kind of audience that would respond to these tactics would be small indeed, but it is so easy to slander others even if what you are saying is just a false insinuation. I noticed this topic has even popped up on the Ambleside Online user groups I belong to.

 

I appreciate SWB standing up for herself like she has, it takes a lot of energy and courage to not simply throw your hands in the air and give up.

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This gets uglier and uglier.

 

I feel the need to confess that a couple of years ago, this agnostic , relaxed hser purchased and used Apologia Biology. I thought the main program was well laid out and easy to use. We supplemented evolution, of course, and had many conversations about the religious aspects of it. I confess this because I wonder if Ham even realizes he is biting the hand that feeds him. I've used bits of MOH and Queen Copywork as well. My oldest hser uses the Dive Math CDs. Do sellers understand that most of us make decisions based on our educational needs, and do not limit ourselves all that much. when choosing programs?

 

This has made me resolute about being very careful where I spend my hsing money.

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This gets uglier and uglier.

 

I feel the need to confess that a couple of years ago, this agnostic , relaxed hser purchased and used Apologia Biology. I thought the main program was well laid out and easy to use. We supplemented evolution, of course, and had many conversations about the religious aspects of it. I confess this, because I wonder if Ham even realizes he is biting the hand that feeds him. Do sellers understand that most of us make decisions based on our educational needs, and do not limit ourselves when choosing programs?

 

This has made me resolute about being very careful where I spend my hsing money.

 

Ken Ham is not part of Apologia. Jay Wile is.

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His latest facebook post is interesting. He thinks secularists should be more tolerant to Christians...:lol: and stop with the personal attacks.:rofl:

 

But some secular homeschoolers are Christian.

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Yes, and Jay Wile, though young earth, is a supporter of SWB and Dr. Enns, because he is appalled at the turn this has taken. He believes that we should be able to ask the tough questions and debate the issues but without personal attacks, calling into question the condition of other souls, committing libel and slander, and generally causing harm to the name of Christ.

 

You can see his response on Proslogian, his blog. He responded initially to what happened in Greenville. He's classy.

 

Faith

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Ken Ham is not part of Apologia. Jay Wile is.

 

Actually, to split hairs ;), Dr. Wile is no longer with Apologia. It is going to be interesting to see how the new owners align themselves.

 

I remember a thread back whe Dr. Wile left Apologia, and people thought his blog post was unnecessary...or something like that. I remember, because I think that was one of the early examples of these lines being drawn.

 

Here's a link. It was an interesting discussion, I wonder if things look different now. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204721&highlight=Dr+Wile+apologia

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Ken Ham is not part of Apologia. Jay Wile is.

 

 

I recently committed to Apologia for our high school sciences - with supplements - because I like the way the text reads and is laid out - and in part because Dr. Wile called Ken Ham out on his behavior. When I got a deal on Biology, Chemistry and Physics I bought all three.

 

I think Library Lover meant that Ham is shortchanging his audience. A secular home schooler might actually choose one of his products and tweak it for their own use. He ought not to bash potential customers - it's bad business.

 

As I've always said about his recent call for tolerance....

 

Those who scream for tolerance the loudest are the least likely to extend it to others.

 

(I'm not sure if I read that some place or not but it stuck)

 

Dr. Bauer, I am sorry you are being attacked this way. It is sickening.

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I agree... sort of. I do feel like there are some people skirting around the fact that they agree not only with what Ken Ham said, but how he said it. If I was one of those people, I would feel unwelcome here too.

 

 

Not to sound like a broken record here, but... tough cookies!

 

Frankly, I am TIRED of people taking advantage of Susan, of PHP, of the guy I work for who owns a website, of ME (who owns a website) - you name it.

 

WEBSITES AND BANDWIDTH COST A BLEEDING FORTUNE!

 

If someone doesn't think a person (or their product) is *worthy* of this, that, or the other thing, or feels that their sensibilities are being bruised by being in the presence of said person/product - you know what? They can jolly well type their happy fingers somewhere else.

 

/rant

 

 

asta

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Actually, to split hairs ;), Dr. Wile is no longer with Apologia. It is going to be interesting to see how the new owners align themselves.

 

I remember a thread back whe Dr. Wile left Apologia, and people thought his blog post was unnecessary...or something like that. I remember, because I think that was one of the early examples of these lines being drawn.

 

 

They published a 'What We Believe' statement that led me to believe their support was with AIG. I unliked the page after that. I could be wrong. I got rid of a lot of stuff on Facebook - not just due to this - that was making my blood pressure rise.

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Not to sound like a broken record here, but... tough cookies!

 

Frankly, I am TIRED of people taking advantage of Susan, of PHP, of the guy I work for who owns a website, of ME (who owns a website) - you name it.

 

WEBSITES AND BANDWIDTH COST A BLEEDING FORTUNE!

 

If someone doesn't think a person (or their product) is *worthy* of this, that, or the other thing, or feels that their sensibilities are being bruised by being in the presence of said person/product - you know what? They can jolly well type their happy fingers somewhere else.

 

/rant

 

 

asta

 

I agree. I just left it... unsaid. :001_smile:

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Yes. Thanks. That is exactly what I meant . I am typing on my tiny iPhone keyboard while watching my youngest swim at our hotel pool . Sorry for not being as clear as I should have been . Thanks for the save,pdalley . :)

 

I recently committed to Apologia for our high school sciences - with supplements - because I like the way the text reads and is laid out - and in part because Dr. Wile called Ken Ham out on his behavior. When I got a deal on Biology, Chemistry and Physics I bought all three.

 

I think Library Lover meant that Ham is shortchanging his audience. A secular home schooler might actually choose one of his products and tweak it for their own use. He ought not to bash potential customers - it's bad business.

 

As I've always said about his recent call for tolerance....

 

Those who scream for tolerance the loudest are the least likely to extend it to others.

 

(I'm not sure if I read that some place or not but it stuck)

 

Dr. Bauer, I am sorry you are being attacked this way. It is sickening.

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Jay Wile is no longer associated with Apologia, although he did write their texts. Jay Wile wrote a very nice, classy response to all of this. http://blog.drwile.com/?p=4602

 

Actually, to split hairs ;), Dr. Wile is no longer with Apologia. It is going to be interesting to see how the new owners align themselves.

 

I remember a thread back whe Dr. Wile left Apologia, and people thought his blog post was unnecessary...or something like that. I remember, because I think that was one of the early examples of these lines being drawn.

 

Here's a link. It was an interesting discussion, I wonder if things look different now. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204721&highlight=Dr+Wile+apologia

 

To split hairs even more, Jay Wile was with Apologia several years ago when LL bought her books! :tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, I realize JW is not currently with Apologia; but regardless of whether he's with them now or not, his books are still not connected to AiG or KH. Totally different publishing company. And even more different now! LOL

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To split hairs even more, Jay Wile was with Apologia several years ago when LL bought her books! :tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, I realize JW is not currently with Apologia; but regardless of whether he's with them now or not, his books are still not connected to AiG or KH. Totally different publishing company. And even more different now! LOL

 

 

True :D.

 

I went back and reread the thread where JW left Apologia. Back then I had mentioned that something in the new owners response made me feel icky...I think I know what it was now;)

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You know, I hate to say this, but aligning themselves with AiG right now? They lost my business.

 

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you like Jay Wile's work, then USE IT! :)

 

kwim? :grouphug:

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I agree... sort of. I do feel like there are some people skirting around the fact that they agree not only with what Ken Ham said, but how he said it. If I was one of those people, I would feel unwelcome here too.

 

I don't interact much on here, but I feel like I've found my people!

 

 

Not to sound like a broken record here, but... tough cookies!

 

Frankly, I am TIRED of people taking advantage of Susan, of PHP, of the guy I work for who owns a website, of ME (who owns a website) - you name it.

 

WEBSITES AND BANDWIDTH COST A BLEEDING FORTUNE!

 

If someone doesn't think a person (or their product) is *worthy* of this, that, or the other thing, or feels that their sensibilities are being bruised by being in the presence of said person/product - you know what? They can jolly well type their happy fingers somewhere else.

 

/rant

 

 

asta

 

This is what I mean about keeping clear heads and about hysteria building. Take a deep breath ladies.

 

I know there's a lot of emotion out there now, but this kind of talk helps no one.

 

We don't need to further divide, do we?

 

BarbecueMom, I don't think it's your place to decide who belongs here and who should feel comfortable here. I think the mods can do a good job of weeding out anyone here to make trouble or insult Susan. But many of us are old-timers here trying to thoughtfully and prayerfully find our way through this mess.

 

Lisa

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I am typing on my tiny iPhone keyboard while watching my youngest swim at our hotel pool .

 

Vacations while homeschooling is melting down around our very heads?! Slacker! :tongue_smilie:

 

Drink a glass of wine for me later while you dangle your feet in? I still have snow on the East side of my house. :glare:

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Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you like Jay Wile's work, then USE IT! :)

 

kwim? :grouphug:

 

I have the older stuff (bought when Dr. Wile owned the company), and I hope Dr. Wile types fast. But I won't make any future purchases from Apologia.

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I have the older stuff (bought when Dr. Wile owned the company), and I hope Dr. Wile types fast. But I won't make any future purchases from Apologia.

 

I wonder if he can contractually create another science curriculum? I have no clue how those things work, but would there something like a non-compete clause (not even sure that is the correct wording)?

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This is what I mean about keeping clear heads and about hysteria building. Take a deep breath ladies.

 

I know there's a lot of emotion out there now, but this kind of talk helps no one.

 

We don't need to further divide, do we?

 

BarbecueMom, I don't think it's your place to decide who agrees/disagrees/sympathizes with Ham, etc. I think the mods can do a good job of weeding out anyone here to make trouble or insult Susan. But many of us and old-timers here trying to thoughtfully and prayerfully find our way through this mess.

 

Lisa

 

I don't have a dog, cat, or fish (ha ha ha) in this fight. I don't know Ham. There are no HS conventions in Europe.

 

I make bandwidth comments pretty much anytime someone, somewhere, complains about PHP, SWB, or this forum. Why? Because it is a good company, she is an admirable woman, and it is a well run forum.

 

I honestly don't think people realize the sheer expense involved in providing a "free" platform upon which people can cr@p on the provider.

 

No heavy breathing, no hysteria, just economics.

 

 

asta

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I wonder if he can contractually create another science curriculum? I have no clue how those things work, but would there something like a non-compete clause (not even sure that is the correct wording)?

 

UGH! You're right! He very well may. I hate non compete clauses. I hope he didn't sign one.

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UGH! You're right! He very well may. I hate non compete clauses. I hope he didn't sign one.

I remember him saying that he's working on "something" right now, but he wouldn't be allowed to sell it in the States for a few more years. Not sure what the "something" is either.

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Yes. Thanks. That is exactly what I meant . I am typing on my tiny iPhone keyboard while watching my youngest swim at our hotel pool . Sorry for not being as clear as I should have been . Thanks for the save,pdalley . :)

 

Ah, got it, thanks. :001_smile:

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