How do you manage when you have a child who has to be watched every single minute???

[melissel]

I mean seriously, every single minute of the day??? I'm practically in tears here. I don't know what else to do. I just don't understand what goes through her head, and nothing I say or do reaches her!

 

The other day, we found ink scribbles on the arm of our new couch, deep pen gouges scribbled on our end table, green marker on our bedsheet, and letters in pen on our white lampshade :( Today, while I was showering, I asked them to clean up the living room a bit. DD4 (5 in two weeks) was in charge of putting all the play kitchen toys into their basket. She came to me in the bathroom, seemingly confused because she'd found a red cup that had some kind of smelly liquid residue in it. She said she'd just found it in the living room, she didn't know what had been in it. She looked so confused that I totally bought it :banghead: We hurried out the door after that to go get a quick dinner, and when we came back, I found a pile of greenish, wet coins on the kitchen counter, and another small pile spread out in an out-of-the way spot on the living room floor! I have no idea where the coins came from, or where they were hidden, or even when she did that! And she drew faces on her sister's photos of herself and her cousin--DD7 was absolutely heartbroken. I didn't even see her near them!

 

I don't know what else to do. She's in trouble now for lying to me, but there seems to be nothing I can take away from her or punish her with that makes any difference to her! I don't even want to punish her, but I've talked myself blue in the face about not touching other people's things, not telling lies, not making messes that aren't OKed by me, not sneaking food, not using her sister's things without permission, and so on, and so on... Plus, so many of these things are things that I could never in a million years think of in advance to tell her not to do!!!

 

I want to be understanding. I remember being a kid and writing with pen on a piece of wood because it felt cool and made a neat sound, and practicing cursive writing on the bright white baseboard of my bedroom with a black marker. I've read the threads here about the weird things we did as kids, even though we knew we shouldn't, just because it was a neat sensory experience. But OMG!!!! She's wrecking my house! She's making me crazy! Everywhere she goes, she leaves a tornado-level wreck behind her! Do I have to put a leash on her and tie her to my belt??? If I do, how do I get anything else done? Housework, private time, time for her sister, school time...when do I do any of that if I'm tied to her?

 

I'm sorry, this got long and I know I'm freaking out, but I'm so tired of scrubbing my carpeting :( Honestly, I could use some advice here. As usual, this kid has me :willy_nilly: I mean, I just had to sanitize about $30 in moldy, smelly coins. And the scariest part? I don't know where the rest of the water went!

 

TIA for any advice you can offer *sigh*

 

ETA one last bit of info. My biggest fear with her is destroying any desire she has to cooperate with me. She is very much the kind of kid who, if you tell her she cannot do something, will immediately think, "Oh yeah? I'll show YOU what I can and cannot do!" The harder I come down on her, the more she struggles to defy me. The more I try to put controls on her, the more she struggles to regain the upper hand in any way possible.

 

Frankly, she comes by it honestly--my grandmother tells stories about my dad and how he would defy her, sneaking out his window and shinnying down the drainpipe after being told he couldn't go out. (He ended up locked out of the house when she figured out what he'd done, and he slept in the front porch that night.) And I know that I have the same kind of nature--all you have to do is tell me that something cannot be done, and that triples my resolve to do it. In an adult, those traits can be valuable. But I truly don't know what to do with this in child!

Edited August 25, 2010 by melissel

[Caitilin]

:grouphug::grouphug: I am sorry. That sounds awful. Can you do as you suggest, and "leash" her to you? Not with a real leash, but keep her within 3 feet of you at all times? I remember on the old boards several people's successfully using this "tomato-staking" method of discipline. I will see if I can find the link.

 

ETA: OK, found the link. I don't agree with many of her theological premises, but her practical advice is very good. You can see them here.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Caitilin

[Bird Girl]

I don't know how you feel about this, but in my world, this child sounds like an excellent candidate for preschool. Preschool is a great place to make messes, learn to OBEY someone who isn't your mom, and get socialized via peer pressure. Plus, you'll have some free time with your big kid, and can get things like your showering and a bit of housework done.

 

Otherwise, you're going to have to come up with some consequences that get her where she lives; if she makes a mess with something she knows she's not to touch (at our house, WE ONLY DRAW/WRITE ON PAPER!) then she goes to her room for at least an hour--and obviously, this will only work if her room is stripped and her closet door has a latch on it to keep her from getting into it. I like John Rosemond for consequences that fit the crime, but I know people also swear by Parenting with Love and Logic.

 

Hang in there!

[Impish]

:grouphug:

[CalicoKat]

I mean seriously, every single minute of the day??? I'm practically in tears here. I don't know what else to do. I just don't understand what goes through her head, and nothing I say or do reaches her!

 

The other day, we found ink scribbles on the arm of our new couch, deep pen gouges scribbled on our end table, green marker on our bedsheet, and letters in pen on our white lampshade :( Today, while I was showering, I asked them to clean up the living room a bit. DD4 (5 in two weeks) was in charge of putting all the play kitchen toys into their basket. She came to me in the bathroom, seemingly confused because she'd found a red cup that had some kind of smelly liquid residue in it. She said she'd just found it in the living room, she didn't know what had been in it. She looked so confused that I totally bought it :banghead: We hurried out the door after that to go get a quick dinner, and when we came back, I found a pile of greenish, wet coins on the kitchen counter, and another small pile spread out in an out-of-the way spot on the living room floor! I have no idea where the coins came from, or where they were hidden, or even when she did that! And she drew faces on her sister's photos of herself and her cousin--DD7 was absolutely heartbroken. I didn't even see her near them!

 

I don't know what else to do. She's in trouble now for lying to me, but there seems to be nothing I can take away from her or punish her with that makes any difference to her! I don't even want to punish her, but I've talked myself blue in the face about not touching other people's things, not telling lies, not making messes that aren't OKed by me, not sneaking food, not using her sister's things without permission, and so on, and so on... Plus, so many of these things are things that I could never in a million years think of in advance to tell her not to do!!!

 

I want to be understanding. I remember being a kid and writing with pen on a piece of wood because it felt cool and made a neat sound, and practicing cursive writing on the bright white baseboard of my bedroom with a black marker. I've read the threads here about the weird things we did as kids, even though we knew we shouldn't, just because it was a neat sensory experience. But OMG!!!! She's wrecking my house! She's making me crazy! Everywhere she goes, she leaves a tornado-level wreck behind her! Do I have to put a leash on her and tie her to my belt??? If I do, how do I get anything else done? Housework, private time, time for her sister, school time...when do I do any of that if I'm tied to her?

 

I'm sorry, this got long and I know I'm freaking out, but I'm so tired of scrubbing my carpeting :( Honestly, I could use some advice here. As usual, this kid has me :willy_nilly: I mean, I just had to sanitize about $30 in moldy, smelly coins. And the scariest part? I don't know where the rest of the water went!

 

TIA for any advice you can offer *sigh*

:grouphug:

 

Sorry this is happening. She sounds like she's really smart. Redirect her to where and when it is appropriate for her to experiment with her tools of choice.

 

She also needs more exercise! Got a DVD that she can dance along with for a while? Or Wii Walk? Better yet, give her a broom to sweep the floor with and a dust rag. Have her wash the windows with a spray bottle of water and a paper towel. Give her a damp rag to wipe down door knobs, floor boards, and switch plates. Have her empty the silverware and sort it into the drawer.

How about folding warshrags, underware and sorting socks!

 

Give her a sissors and show her the lawn -- cut the grass honey! :D Make a fairy house.

 

Now off to follow my own advice with my preschool tornados who insist on destroying our new home.

[AK_Mom4]

I think you have the right answer - use a leash! :tongue_smilie:

 

OK ... not probably a real leash, but I think you have to keep her within arms reach. It is going to be a real pain for awhile, but (assuming there's nothing else going on....) a couple of weeks tied to Mom's apron strings will probably show some improvement in behavior. And.... keep her busy. Whatever you are doing, make sure she has her hands busy all the time. My Granny used to say "Idle hands do the Devil's work" and then she would put us all to work to keep us out of trouble, even the littlest child would get a job.

[melissel]

:grouphug::grouphug: I am sorry. That sounds awful. Can you do as you suggest, and "leash" her to you? Not with a real leash, but keep her within 3 feet of you at all times? I remember on the old boards several people's successfully using this "tomato-staking" method of discipline. I will see if I can find the link.

 

Thanks for the sympathy. Doesn't it though? The worst part is that she's 50% sunny, funny, wonderful, cooperative child, happy to help and be part of the family. But when she's in the "other 50%" mode, we crack heads all day long.

 

I remember the tomato staking threads. I just don't know how we can manage that way! On a practical level and on an emotional level--I'll lose my mind. I already struggle with the "always on" aspect of HSing :(

 

Anyway, thanks for listening :blushing:

[OrganicAnn]

If you can't leave her alone, then don't leave her alone. I think they call it tomato staking.

 

We organized our house so the "play room" is right by the kitchen/family room. It really is the dining room. So that we can keep a close eye on our DD when we needed to.

 

Good luck. They will grow out of it.

[simka2]

:grouphug::grouphug: I am sorry. That sounds awful. Can you do as you suggest, and "leash" her to you? Not with a real leash, but keep her within 3 feet of you at all times? I remember on the old boards several people's successfully using this "tomato-staking" method of discipline. I will see if I can find the link.

 

ETA: OK, found the link. I don't agree with many of her theological premises, but her practical advice is very good. You can see them here.

I'm almost wondering if some sort of leash isn't in order :) You know one of the cute ones with the little bear on her back. When my twins were this age I had the family room baby gated. They only had access to this room. IT really helped with my sanity!

[zaichiki]

I would remove all pens, scissors, crayons, markers, etc and whatever else you can imagine could be used to cause trouble.

 

Maybe try a baby gate to limit her to a certain area of the house (you can more easily supervise)? How many lbs does she weigh? We have an extra tall step-on gate (36") with only vertical metal bars (can't be climbed) that requires a certain amount of pounds of pressure to open. My tall 4 year old can't climb it or open it, but then he doesn't try to challenge obstacles as a general rule. (My now 8 y.o. dd would have figured out a way over the gate when she was 4, I'm sure.)

 

Preschool would certainly give you a break, but school brings other issues into the picture. You'd have to weigh the pros and cons of that for your own family.

[EmilyK]

I can sympathize. I had a kid like that. I could not understand the destruction. (He was 2 to 4 at the worst of it.) I never left him alone, but other family members did, and that was when the bad stuff happened. I work outside the home, so I get a break there, but I never had a moment by myself at home until he was 4 or 5 (in part because my kids like to follow me around).

 

I'm afraid I got frustrated with my husband and others who would leave him alone in a room. I just never did that, and got mad that others did. But the house was a mess. I envied people whose kids played on one floor while they got things done on another. I got very little done in those years.

 

The good news is that he is a delightful 8 year old now and hasn't broken or destroyed anything in years. He still has a strong personality and we butt heads a lot, but over things that make more sense to me than drawing on the furniture or pulling plaster out of the walls or throwing all my husband's clothes and shoes out the upstairs window.

[melissel]

She's too old for preschool here now. She'd have to go to K, which is full-day everywhere here, and I won't do that. Plus, yes, she's extremely peer-oriented, and I don't want to deal with what she'll bring home. She's like a sponge that way. I'm reading all your replies. You've given me some great ideas already, thank you so much.

[The Girls' Mom]

I don't really have any advice, but wanted to tell you about my niece.

 

She was the child you could not leave alone for a second, or you could guarantee a mess.

 

She poured an entire bottle of ketchup on 3 month old carpet in their 3 month old house.

 

She dumped an entire canister of powdered sugar on her bedroom floor...and the dog.

 

Not a surface of their house was left unscathed from her childhood.

 

BUT, she has grown out of it...it took awhile, but she did. And she is the child now that we joke could easily move out on her own tomorrow and handle everything beautifully.

 

If you want a laugh, or just commiseration, check out this scrapbook page my SIL did. She actually has and entire scrapbook of Molly's messes :lol:

 

http://www.scrapjazz.com/galleries/15690/view/381103/-1/242/1.html

[Pamela H in Texas]

When my ds was little, I found a website that basically did a level system for kiddos like this. At first, kiddo is to hold on to your belt loop. Then a leash (or belt or whatever) to keep them "so close." We used "armslength" instead which worked for him. Then same room. Any mess up, they are on the tighter level again. It's not punitive though. You talk with them, work with them, etc. It's just that they have to earn more freedom as they learn some self-control.

 

Additionally, I would do a LOT of sensory (both small and large motor) play with this child. So this may be writing through clay, sandbox play, painting when paper is on underside of table, spinning galore, heavy work like carrying a heavy box, swinging, water play, clapping games like we played as children, etc. Of course, lots of physical activity. Some of these kids need HOURS. But also challenge activities physically and mentally. Work on riding a two wheeler if she isn't already. Help her learn to climb a tree/fence/etc. Jumping rope takes a bit of time and effort and thinking for this age. Hitting, catching, kicking balls. Head stands. We also did a lot of mental math, picking out songs on the keyboard, playing games that require some brainwork in some way or another, etc.

 

This is NOT going to solve everything, but meeting a child's needs sensory-wise, physically, mentally, etc definitely HELPS.

 

And honestly, I'd stop punishing ASAP. The goal isn't to teach her to be sneaky or prove she can get through your rules. If that is what she's getting out of it, then you need to go ALL the way the other way.

 

I'd aim for Positive Discipline and Raising a Thinking Child and Love and Logic.

 

And know you're not alone. My ds was always into something if he got the chance. And THEN I had a fosterdaughter the same age who was twelve times tougher which I wasn't sure was possible. We *did* get a tether for her in order to keep her and everyone else safe. Only the oldest (5) was allowed to go to the back of the house unsupervised. It was crazy. While trying to keep 3 other kids under 5 safe and happy and healthy. Goodness! They gave me a run for it.

 

BTW, ds is now 15 and a pretty good kid. He isn't still so daring, he behaves well, he listens well, he's not so wild. He is doing well with schoolwork and has a pretty good attitude. We don't have ANY of the problems the average parent has THANKFULLY. He has had a bump or two here and there of course; but mostly, he's a great teenager. It'll get better eventually :)

 

Hope this helps a little.

 

ETA: Is she already 5? I can't imagine ANY preschool refusing to take a 4yo even an older one. Lots of young 5s would still be in preschool in many areas. However, Montessori and some other types may have a 3yo to 6yo class that would be appropriate.

Edited August 25, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Barb_]

I sent my high energy, impulsive, sensory-seeking boy to a Montessori preschool. He has been there for one year. Between my efforts and theirs, he has been transformed. At first I didn't thing it would work out because he was such a handful. He wanted to be good, but it seemed like he was at the mercy of his impulses ALL of the time. He methodically kicked a huge hole in his wall one day at nap time, he got ahold of my phone and downloaded (and paid for) apps, games, ringtones, he painted the back of door with nailpolish, and when he was 2, he would escape all attempts to lock him in the house and disappear down the block with his wagon.

 

The neighbors used to bring my dad home as a toddler too.

 

He just has this driving urge to see What Will Happen and How It Works. He doesn't trust his own experience. As a toddler he would touch the stove, cry, and then as soon as he could sneak back, touch it again. At two he learned to use the screwdriver and unscrewed the backs off of every toy in the house and hid all the batteries. He wasn't motivated to behave in the least by Mom's exasperation and tears. It took the calming environment and consistency of Montessori to bring him around.

 

He still has his moments, but he's polite and focused, thoughtful and sweet. Part of that is just age and maturity, but it has been nice over the past year to focus the attention on school and the other children rather than on herding my son 24/7. They reinforce what I am trying to accomplish with him at home and vice versa.

 

It's an expense though. The girls were all willing to give up all activities so we could afford it. They were looking forward to having art supplies again.

 

ETA: Just saw that your child is Kindergarten age. So I suppose my post was more about commiseration.

 

Barb

Edited August 25, 2010 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Wheres Toto]

I have two of them that are like this. It is extremely exhausting, frustrating, aggravating....I get daily headaches. We have drawing on almost every wall of the house, our rug is stained everywhere, we lose toys in the fireplace, any paper left out is shredded and scattered, we lost a pair of sneakers inside a reclining chair:confused:, furniture has been broken..... And my house is small enough that you can hear a normal volume conversation taking place anywhere in the house from any other point in the house.

 

What sort of helps (or at least gives me two minutes to do dishes or laundry) - we have a large baby gate between our living room and entry way. This way the kids cannot get to (or escape through) the front door, cannot go in the kitchen and cannot bother the dog. All crayons, markers, etc. are kept very high out of reach and only used under supervision (although one or two always seem to pop up later). All cabinets have latches on them (only one kind still works, they figured out all the rest). All furniture has to be far enough away from walls, bulletin boards, bookcases, etc. that they can not be used to climb up to reach things that would normally be out of reach. All toys that are out are kept in canvas bins that collapse when stood upon - all plastic bins and drawers were removed. (Although this post will show you where that got us.)

 

I just keep reminding myself - "this too shall pass".

[Lolly]

It won't help you one single bit right now, but she will outgrow it. Believe it or not, you are probably almost there! Hang on. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

She does need to be supervised. I'm sorry, I know it's exhausting, but some kids are just this way.

 

I would suggest a LOT of exercise, and a LOT of sensory opportunities, along with a ton of raw materials and relatively little direction in how to use them. If you have a really good parent participation developmental preschool around, especially one with a mixed age classroom, I would seriously consider that. Then she will have more opportunities to experiment with materials and be very physical.

 

I would build her a sensory table--a cheap way to do this is to buy one of those cement stirring black tubs at the hardware store (they are made to be disposable, so they are very cheap), and put it on a garage sale coffee table outside. Alternate the materials in it, and cover it with an old door to keep the cats out when you're not using it. Maybe have two--one with water and the other with dry materials like dry beans or rice, sand, or noodles. You can buy these in bulk at Costco. Provide sand toys. Make playdough and encourage her to use it. Make the kind that you can bake to harden as well. Encourage her to make mud puddles and play in them.

 

And make sure that she runs, crawls, jumps, does jumping jacks, crosses the midline with her hands, a lot. Have her trace 8 inch tall capital letters with her finger on a piece of window screen. Have her write over them with every color of crayon in her box.

 

At this age, motor activities are needs, not just wants. They help her brain develop properly.

 

She will grow out of this with time and patience and working together. But she really, really needs these outlets now. If you channel these needs into something inane and acceptable, it becomes completely reasonable to inhibit them inside.

[elise1mds]

More :grouphug: being sent your way. It is exhausting.

[simka2]

This thread keeps coming to my mind...mainly because I realize I miss this age!!! Hard to believe, huh?

 

Now they are older... I have dirty shoes, clothes, books, all sorts of thing get stuffed in random spots!!! Errrghh...everything has a place, my kids just don't want to put everything in it :)

 

If I thought a 4yr old could make a mess...it's nothing compared to an 8yr old!

[RamonaQ]

I would remove all pens, scissors, crayons, markers, etc and whatever else you can imagine could be used to cause trouble.

 

Maybe try a baby gate to limit her to a certain area of the house (you can more easily supervise)?

 

My thoughts exactly. We had a really, really busy little one in our house for awhile. We "baby" (more like toddler/ little kid) proofed like mad, and that child was never unattended until about 6ish. I mean absolutely anything I could think of-- matches, knives, most definitely pens, markers and scissors. Also, all kitchen cabinets were locked-- after I found flour strewn about my entire house. I was shocked how little baby-proofing we had to do with the other.

 

:grouphug: She will out grow it.

[kalanamak]

I mean seriously, every single minute of the day??? I'm practically in tears here. I don't know what else to do. I just don't understand what goes through her head, and nothing I say or do reaches her!

 

 

Our el Distructo was not quite this bad, and was a little younger, but we put everything up and tomato staked. Hubby and I took shifts. Hubby's method of coping was to have a project or outdoor activity going as much as possible, which fit with my No Child Left Inside philosophy. Digging holes at the local lake, bicycling on wooded trails, running up and down the hill with the dog , spending two hours playing "get the ball Daddy is clutching to his chest underwater at the pool" means no damage to the house. Kiddo was run HARD, as in panting, sweating hard for 3 or more hours a day. Personally, I think that in our hunter-gatherer days, kids moved around outside a lot more than they do now. For me, it was art-o-rama. Paints, crayons, glue...all very washable. Plus, at that age, I was reading aloud to him about 2 hours a day, while he cuddled or crayoned.

 

Just today, after a wiggly yesterday, I woke hubby early and informed him it was beach day, and they have been on the beach for 7 hours, thus far.

:grouphug:

[LivingHope]

As a mother of seven children, I had to purchase a lockable storage cabinet for our art/school/sewing supplies. It has helped to minimize those scribbles, sharpie marks, and other art/craft related messes. My oldest daughter and I are the only key keepers of this cabinet.

 

Have you noticed that there are fewer messes when the ceilings are higher...like the sky? Out of doors helps us too. :coolgleamA:

 

Janell

[LivingHope]

...which fit with my No Child Left Inside philosophy...

 

 

I love this.

[FO4UR]

I've got a 4yo and a 5yo like this.

 

My dd was barely 2yo when I found her with a permanent marker writing on MY bedsheets!!!:glare: (perfect o's, and t's fwiw:tongue_smilie:)

 

We bought her a pretty little play kitchen. She has "autographed" it in permanent marker over and over again.

 

Silly putty somehow snuck in my house and it's all in her carpet as we speak.:glare:

 

She wanted a box to put some toys in, so she went to the basement and dumped a box of MY things (desk supplies, scattered and trampled) in order to snitch the box.

[dragons in the flower bed]

My littlest one is rarely like this, but he was a week ago, all of a sudden. I made him sit in a chair near me until he selected one activity from a pre-approved list. Failure to do anything but that activity resulted in removal to the chair. I'd developed that technique when I had a little one who was just like your daughter. Destructoboy is seven now, still a bit of a wild card, but has more sense.

[6packofun]

Is there any way that you can take her closet, if it's big enough, and make it a "free space" for drawing or other stuff like that? Maybe make part of it a chalkboard but just let her go at the other surfaces so that it's contained? Then, you could direct her there but discipline her for any time she goes outside her creative space? I know that when you have a child like this, the normal "kids should NOT be allowed to write on walls!!!" kind of discipline (stuffiness? lol ;) ) can't always apply and simultaneously allow you to be sane.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

(((Melissa)))

 

I have THREE children like this. Sigh. A few weeks ago I almost had a nervous breakdown because of it. I ended up 'tomato staking' ALL THREE for a couple days, and it made their behavior better but was incredibly hard on me. I need personal space, breathing room, and quiet. I couldn't decide which was worse!!! I also gave them more chores, but they all had to being doing chores in the same room, and I had to supervise every second. Same with exercise, quiet time, or any other 'project' to keep them busy. Very exhausting when every single 'solution' requires more of mom. I wish I had a magic wand for you...

 

The boys ended up going camping with Dad for a few days, and then we've had *3 weeks* of VBS since then. Even having the mornings off for my own sanity was amazing.

[LG Gone Wild]

I mean seriously, every single minute of the day??? I'm practically in tears here. I don't know what else to do. I just don't understand what goes through her head, and nothing I say or do reaches her!

 

The other day, we found ink scribbles on the arm of our new couch, deep pen gouges scribbled on our end table, green marker on our bedsheet, and letters in pen on our white lampshade :( Today, while I was showering, I asked them to clean up the living room a bit. DD4 (5 in two weeks) was in charge of putting all the play kitchen toys into their basket. She came to me in the bathroom, seemingly confused because she'd found a red cup that had some kind of smelly liquid residue in it. She said she'd just found it in the living room, she didn't know what had been in it. She looked so confused that I totally bought it :banghead: We hurried out the door after that to go get a quick dinner, and when we came back, I found a pile of greenish, wet coins on the kitchen counter, and another small pile spread out in an out-of-the way spot on the living room floor! I have no idea where the coins came from, or where they were hidden, or even when she did that! And she drew faces on her sister's photos of herself and her cousin--DD7 was absolutely heartbroken. I didn't even see her near them!

 

I don't know what else to do. She's in trouble now for lying to me, but there seems to be nothing I can take away from her or punish her with that makes any difference to her! I don't even want to punish her, but I've talked myself blue in the face about not touching other people's things, not telling lies, not making messes that aren't OKed by me, not sneaking food, not using her sister's things without permission, and so on, and so on... Plus, so many of these things are things that I could never in a million years think of in advance to tell her not to do!!!

 

I want to be understanding. I remember being a kid and writing with pen on a piece of wood because it felt cool and made a neat sound, and practicing cursive writing on the bright white baseboard of my bedroom with a black marker. I've read the threads here about the weird things we did as kids, even though we knew we shouldn't, just because it was a neat sensory experience. But OMG!!!! She's wrecking my house! She's making me crazy! Everywhere she goes, she leaves a tornado-level wreck behind her! Do I have to put a leash on her and tie her to my belt??? If I do, how do I get anything else done? Housework, private time, time for her sister, school time...when do I do any of that if I'm tied to her?

 

I'm sorry, this got long and I know I'm freaking out, but I'm so tired of scrubbing my carpeting :( Honestly, I could use some advice here. As usual, this kid has me :willy_nilly: I mean, I just had to sanitize about $30 in moldy, smelly coins. And the scariest part? I don't know where the rest of the water went!

 

TIA for any advice you can offer *sigh*

 

ETA one last bit of info. My biggest fear with her is destroying any desire she has to cooperate with me. She is very much the kind of kid who, if you tell her she cannot do something, will immediately think, "Oh yeah? I'll show YOU what I can and cannot do!" The harder I come down on her, the more she struggles to defy me. The more I try to put controls on her, the more she struggles to regain the upper hand in any way possible.

 

Frankly, she comes by it honestly--my grandmother tells stories about my dad and how he would defy her, sneaking out his window and shinnying down the drainpipe after being told he couldn't go out. (He ended up locked out of the house when she figured out what he'd done, and he slept in the front porch that night.) And I know that I have the same kind of nature--all you have to do is tell me that something cannot be done, and that triples my resolve to do it. In an adult, those traits can be valuable. But I truly don't know what to do with this in child!

 

 

I read most of the post but it was too familiar. Today, it was hot sauce in the younger sibling's lunch. "What? It wasn't me!"

 

I cried too.

 

Anyway, I don't have the answer 'cause if I did, I wouldn't have cried. One thing that has made some difference is Liturgy of the Hours. That where you pray several times a day...it's a Catholic thing. But if that's not your persuasion, you could just gather your people around you and pray several times a day. Today, we didn't LOTH and it showed.

 

I also participate in a lot of combat sports. That's just so I can get my mind right after a day with a certain someone.

 

ETA: Oops! I was talking about my oldest. LOTH works for my 4yo as well.

Edited August 25, 2010 by LG Gone Wild

[Skadi]

The harder I come down on her, the more she struggles to defy me. The more I try to put controls on her, the more she struggles to regain the upper hand in any way possible.

 

You hit the nail on the head there. Children have a natural desire to, as Caesar Milan would put it, "be the dominant one." This isn't so much about writing on walls or telling lies as it is about control. Someone in this relationship has to be the authority figure, and she is like a rebel without a cause fighting to gain small victories wherever she can in order to establish dominance. Sometimes she can do that by ignoring what you say, other times by doing the outright opposite of what you say, sometimes by doing these things that she knows drives you wild. Why did she even show you the cup? Because it gave her the opportunity to lie to you (lying to someone feels powerful because you have one over on them, essentially) and she wanted you to find out what she had done. Others may disagree, but I think that this sort of insolent behavior (and it is exactly that -- think of the heartbreak she caused her sister and the turmoil she is causing your family unit as a whole) needs to be nipped in the bud. You can't possibly guard all markers and pens all the time -- and besides, that's only dealing with the symptom and not the root problem here: she doesn't respect you or what you say. I would suggest this book. Now might be a good time to analyze your own training and discipline methods and see if approaching it from a slightly different angle might work for you. Best of luck, whatever you decide!

[HS Mom in NC]

My youngest daughter just turned 5 and is like yours. My older two daughters are 12 and 14 now.What you are describing sounds very familiar to me. I had baby gates up to keep her near enough to me so that I could watch what she was doing at all times for years.

 

When I am working with the older two the youngest is either on a mat (an easily discernible limited space) right next to us or she is on the computer right next to us. Only recently has she been allowed to play in her playroom unattended for short periods of time. All craft items are not accessible to her unless I am there to supervise them. She is never allowed in her sisters' rooms or our office without permission and supervision.

 

She is incredibly high energy and impulsive. She needs far more physical exercise than the typical child (not easy here in PHX in the summer) and she needs constant mental stimulation because she is so smart and inquisitive. She doesn't like to be told what to do, but life isn't about liking everything. She is incredibly bossy and absolutely fearless. They're all qualities that, if reigned in and channeled in positive directions makes for a good leader.

 

We have to be VERY rigid about enforcing rules consistently and we have to be very blunt with her. She doesn't pick up on subtle nonverbal cues.It sounds harsh to hear a parent say, "You told that story already. We heard you-let someone else have a turn talking." or "Stop talking. You've talked non-stop for too long now." or "No. If you're just going to boss me around when I play with you, I won't play with you anymore." or "You're too loud and you're throwing your body around too much-stop it now." but hinting or giving "a look" gets no response of any kind.

 

On the good side, she is cheerful, smart, and funny. She is an eager helper and is glad to help do everything from cleaning bathrooms, scrubbing dishes, vacuuming, and putting away laundry. She has to be DOING something all the time, so teaching her to do chores along with us really helped. Teaching her to read will probably keep her very mentally active. She is doing well, but she's still in the earlier stages of phonics readers.

 

I have to say under NO circumstances should a child that challenging ever go into an institutional setting (preschools, church nursery, etc.) Mine wasn't in a church nursery/Sunday School until she was 4. It shouldn't ever be someone else's problem. I have several school teacher relatives and friends who have told me in various conversations that parents who dump their challenging kids off on already overburdened teachers with a room full of kids are not viewed very favorably. It's ciritical a child learn to obey mom and dad before they learn to obey caregivers who have been transferred that authority.

[Denisemomof4]

well, your post sounds like one tiny piece of what I deal with Every Single Day of my life. It's BEYOND EXHAUSTING. My RAD dd is very difficult.

 

I don't leave her unattended EVER. She is attached to my hip every single second of her awake time. She goes with me if I go to the bathroom, take a shower, fold the laundry, clean. No matter where I am, she's there. I was tired of the house being destroyed so this is what I do. Exhausting? Yes. But it's better than ripping out carpets, refinishing wood floors, sanding down windowsills or doors, using goo gone to get the nailpolish off the furniture or flooring.

 

Your daughter really needs more supervision. I simply wouldn't give her the opportunity EVER to be alone and cause damage!

 

ETA: My daughter has been attached to my hip for 4 years now. Somehow I've learned to accept it and make it a part of my life.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Denisemomof4

[LibraryLover]

I found mine did well at camp and other activites.

Edited August 25, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Anne in CA]

I read a book several years ago that was written by a pediatrician that dealt with this sort of thing. His main suggestion was to buy a solid door for their room and cut off the top 1/3rd. Remove everything from the room that you don't want damaged. When you need a break or at bedtime put the child in the room and lock the door from the outside. Rest, checking on the child every few minutes by peaking over the top of the door. Make sure you can instantly unlock the door in case of fire or other emergency.

 

That seemed extreme at the time, but after reading some of the posts here I think maybe some people may need to do something like this.

[TravelingChris]

My middle was like this. It all got better when she was diagnosed with ADHD and medicated. She is seventeen now and only very occasionally do we have small relapses like when I find her absently cutting up some paper.

[Barb_]

 

I have to say under NO circumstances should a child that challenging ever go into an institutional setting (preschools, church nursery, etc.) Mine wasn't in a church nursery/Sunday School until she was 4. It shouldn't ever be someone else's problem. I have several school teacher relatives and friends who have told me in various conversations that parents who dump their challenging kids off on already overburdened teachers with a room full of kids are not viewed very favorably. It's ciritical a child learn to obey mom and dad before they learn to obey caregivers who have been transferred that authority.

 

:001_huh: Who's talking about dumping? Children behave differently in different environments. Sometimes a controlled environment is precisely what a child needs to get a handle on himself. The above statement is pretty heavy handed.

 

Barb

[KidsHappen]

Oh honey, five of my six were this way, may times more than one at the same time. Most of the time, I didn't even know who did what unless they were stupid enough to sign their work (and they were). My dining room table is a monument to my children's destructivity. It is missing the finish entirely in one spot due to finger nail polish remover, has the finish severely marred in a fairly large area due to either sunscreen or bug repellant (can't remember which but I don't use either anymore, who knew?), has permanet marker, nail polish, glue, glitter, and many other unidentifiable markings of various kinds all over the surface plus several names and sayings carved in the surface. My children want to know when I am going to replace it. Never, I say. I want to be able to show my grandchildren. :D

 

I do feel for you but be thankful that you at least know where to concentrate your energy and remember that this too shall pass. Oh, and they go with you to the bathroom. You do not want them to escape when you are in the buff and covered in soap. ;)

[PygmyShrew]

This isn't an issue of your needing to "redirect" this child, or plunk her in preschool for some other "authority" to fight this out, putting up the school supplies. This is your GARDEN VARIETY disobedience and defiance and it needs to be NIPPED in the bud asap!

 

I'd recommend Shepherding a Child's Heart (Tripp) and to DO what it says 100%.

 

I don't know if you DO this or not, but sometimes when a child is so defiant it'll become a well-talked about fact in the family about how bad she is, or how "we just can't get over how different she is from ____, ---- in short, the child learns that her defiance is something that we all TAKE NOTE of and is "her trademark" so to speak. If this is going on, it needs to stop. I'd start changing my tone to one where she gets the message that she is another one of your sweet girls. (not because she acts this way now, but that this is the behavior you expect of her. No longer can she get any attention (negative or positive) from her various acts.

 

I'd discipline her quietly and in private and there'd be no attention gained from it.

 

This is a dangerous trend (that starts THIS early) but can EASILY turn into a pattern that will destruct her.

 

I hear your frustration and pain and anguish and I'm glad you're seeing this for what it is: a serious problem that has to be dealt with.

[Barb_]

This is a dangerous trend (that starts THIS early) but can EASILY turn into a pattern that will destruct her.

 

I hear your frustration and pain and anguish and I'm glad you're seeing this for what it is: a serious problem that has to be dealt with.

 

Oh just stop.

[fiddledeedee]

I have one of those kids. He's 4 1/2. In fact, I'm sitting at a computer chair covered in Sharpie, and my desk used to be, but it's faded. My son can scale most things, and get into most anything if he wants to. I have a limited number of spaces left to keep things out of his reach. He ripped the lock off of our fridge (he's a pour-er and an egg cracker). He rips most child locks off. He can climb drawer handles and climb onto the counters in both the bathroom and kitchen. He uses stools or chairs to climb onto other things to climb even higher. We have a two story house. I cannot watch him every second. He's big for his age, a baby gate would be a joke.

 

I have no advice because I go through this every day. I have read many parenting books, and tried many things. Nothing thus far has helped. As he gets older, some things get easier, some don't. I just know he won't be little forever, and these things he does are patience builders for me. :D

 

He has speech delays, and school starts in 2 weeks, he goes to preschool for speech and fine motor therapy. That's 3 hours a day I can concentrate on doing school with my daughter without worrying about what he's doing behind my back. I don't know how else we'd get anything done.

 

I have learned firsthand that children can be so different from each other. What works for one doesn't always work for another.

 

This too shall pass, right?!

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't know if you DO this or not, but sometimes when a child is so defiant it'll become a well-talked about fact in the family about how bad she is, or how "we just can't get over how different she is from ____, ---- in short, the child learns that her defiance is something that we all TAKE NOTE of and is "her trademark" so to speak. If this is going on, it needs to stop. I'd start changing my tone to one where she gets the message that she is another one of your sweet girls. (not because she acts this way now, but that this is the behavior you expect of her. No longer can she get any attention (negative or positive) from her various acts.

 

 

 

It's not so simple. Yes, mom does need to be close by and be consistent, but this child needs to be able to be very active and get sensory input also, to be able to properly receive the appropriate training in indoor behavior that is so needed here.

[Amber in AUS]

I don't have anything to add but you are not alone. I am facing a continue uphill battle with my DS and sometimes i feel like i should take myself to the looney bin. ((HUGS))

[LibraryLover]

:cheers2:

Oh just stop.

[dansamy]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I have a DS8 who is just like this. I kept thinking that he would outgrowsome of this, but he is still a liar and destructive and lazy. I, too, have no clue how to handle him....

 

I'll read this thread and hope and pray that it's not too late to do something productive with him.

[melissel]

Oh just stop.

 

Actually, I can kind of see where PygmyShrew is coming from here (assuming I'm understanding correctly--I might not be), and I agree with her. It's another of my major fears. Even DD7 has started joking around about DD4's bad behavior--how anything that goes wrong around here must have been DD4's fault, how we're going to send her home with visiting relatives who are leaving, etc. She's made comments to me about "because she's bad." It was a knife through my heart when she said that to me, and I do NOT want that to be her self-identity in life. It's just hard when she's being spoken to sternly, redirected, lectured, yelled at, etc. all day long! And I think that's what PygmyShrew is saying--that I need to leave so much emotion out of it and address the behavior itself, not make it part of her character.

[CLHCO]

:grouphug:

 

God gave my my son to humble me because I had this silly idea that I was a good parents, due to my older two daughters. ;)

 

I'm sorry. It is *hard* to parent some kids. I have only two bits of advice I dare offer. First, when your child least deserves your positive attention and love, that is when you need to actually step it up. If you don't, you will cause a distance that can become a nasty cycle, making this far worse. This does NOT mean there is no discipline. This means when it is over and you're still mad later that day as you look at the marks on your carpet, don't let that sun go down on your anger. Connect with your child anyway in some positive way.

 

Second, you can always gain wisdom from reading different parenting ideas, but don't ever let anyone convince you that there is a "magic bullet" method and you're failing because you don't follow it. I've been through them all. In the end, you just take it one day at a time, pray if you are one of faith, read books that model positive character traits, and endure. Some ages will be better than others, giving you a breather now and then. Maturity does happen, eventually.

 

BTW, I *love* the door thing mentioned above. Dang, why didn't I read that when my son was younger? I'd find my son gathering materials to try making a conductor between to electrical appliances and a glass of water because he heard water conducts electricity, or trying to sneak into the garage with the car keys. I am still proud of myself for surviving the ages of three and six with that boy. :banghead: To this day, when we perform on stage, people probably think I'm a bit high in my expectations to have my son (now 10, but we started this sooner) having to play on nearly every song, instead of like most groups with younger ones, who have them show up only every now and then. Not my son. He's up there because if that boy doesn't have a fiddle in his hands, he is rewiring someone's electrical system. He can't handle the responsibility of breaks to hang out on the side and it's bad for mothers to have to have a hissy fit on stage when he doesn't obey, sneaks off, or climbs into some church's organ. Hey, it's made him good at fiddling. :tongue_smilie:

 

Breathe. Pray. Have a glass of wine. A big one.

[melissel]

I have THREE children like this...

 

Oh Heidi :grouphug: I read your post a few weeks ago and I couldn't even reply because I was so overwhelmed by even reading about your situation. I thought of my girl as I reading your plea for help and just thanked my lucky stars that I only have one of them. I'm very much like you--I need quiet and privacy and to be alone in my house or I am not recharged ever. Thank you for your thoughts and advice.

[Food4Thought]

:grouphug::grouphug: My DS did a lot of the things you describe, some of it including his own feces. :ack2: Believe me, I have cried hard and loud (and often right in front of the boy).

 

You've gotten a lot of great advice already, so I'm going to go with my favorite topic ever: FOOD. :D Take out ALL artificial colorings, especially Red 40 & Yellow 5. They are *known* to cause behavior problems in children, and are banned in many countries. Then take out BHT & TBHQ. They are petroleum products that are also high triggers for behavior problems. Of course, the thing that helped the absolute most for us was going gluten free, but eliminating those additives made huge differences before that. I could tell within half an hour if someone had slipped the boy a piece of candy.

 

I don't agree with others that your child is purposefully defiant. In my experience, a 4-yr old wants to be loved by a parent. So either she's trying to get attention, or something else is messing up her system! If you think it might be a sensory issue, read through The Out of Sync Child Has Fun for some ideas of things to keep her busy.

[melissel]

Thank you so much, everyone. There are so many wise and calming words and hilarious stories in here, I'll never manage to address them all--though I will say, DottieAnna, your blog post just about beats everything :lol:. That would never happen here because DD7 would be horrified at the mere suggestion that she go behind my back and do something like that! She'd never participate!

 

Those of you who talked about physical and sensory activities--you hit the nail on the head 100%. I hadn't realized just how much I've checked out in the last few weeks, between the terrible heat and humidity, being burned out, being overwhelmed with family obligations and work for over a month, trying to get ready for one last vacation AND our whole new school year, trying to manage the house, etc. I've pretty much totally disengaged, and that's no good. I'll get on that tomorrow--the temperature has dropped drastically here and will be nice for a least a week, and I'll use that to my advantage. I love some of the ideas you ladies listed and will be implementing many of them!

 

Many of you have also made me realize that I still have it pretty good :lol: Some of your stories just made me laugh and give thanks! I can see the progress DD's made in the last year or so, and the progress I've made in terms of discipline. I can see that in most cases, she's truly trying to make an effort and cooperate and listen. A week or so ago, she went through a phase where she was taking books off of our living bookshelf and leaving them strewn all around the house--she'd use them as houses or pretend menus or mini-libraries or whatever. I finally got fed up and told her she may not touch the books in the shelf anymore, they were mine and daddy's not her toys to play with, and that she wasn't to use them for any reason unless she asked first. I realized yesterday that she hasn't touched them since! So she IS trying, and I've been trying to give her more credit for that, and for the things that do come naturally to her, like getting dressed the first time I ask her to (she's always been great about getting her own clothes and dressing herself)--things that I never gave her any kudos for because I just expected them. Now I can see that she needs the strokes for what she does do and not just discipline for what she doesn't.

 

I stuck to my consequence tonight of not reading to her before bed, but I did sit at the end of her bed for awhile. We talked about what we can do about this, and I told her that we're going to be doing some role-playing tomorrow, and she liked that idea. She came to the end of the bed to cuddle with me and said she loved me, and I said I loved her always, even when I was angry and frustrated at her behavior. She said, "Even when your heart is Xed out?" :crying: I told her that even my head feels like it's exploding with frustration, my heart is never, ever Xed out for her, it's always the same heart full of love.

 

I will do the tomato staking, simply because she IS still very little, and because it's what needs to be done. I forget because she is so smart and both girls are very mature in many ways. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with being as checked in as possible anyway, with both my girls. DD7 tends to get lost in the shuffle because the little one requires so much attention.

 

Thank you all so much for calming me and commiserating and sharing your own battle stories (the hot sauce in the lunch? :svengo:) and experienced and propping me up with the comfort that this will not last forever. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can come back to it periodically and remind myself of the tactics I need to be using. You all are the best :grouphug:

[mhg]

Oh just stop.

 

stop what? Giving her opinion?

 

 

I for one agree with PygmyShrew.

 

I had two first (girl) cousins who were JUST like this in their youths. One died of drug overdose in her bathtub at age 18 and the other is 14 and heading in the same direction --- lying, dominating the family, creating drama after drama, the family revolves at her will/mercy, even SHE's at the mercy of her passing whims and she/all are miserable under her reign of terror. It's no LIGHT matter here. This IS serious. The OP is RIGHT on for feeling concerned and upset. Their lives are being completely dominantly by a 4 year old CHILD! How crazy is this!?!?!

 

IMO, mom, the L A S T thing she needs is for you to send her anywhere else for now. Until you have her under AUTHORITY in general (which begins ONLY at home) then you'd be derelict in your duty as a parent to her. This is YOUR NUMBER ONE JOB (it's ALL of our number one jobs): to teach your child to do what he/she OUGHT and not be a slave to her whims/passions/will a la "self-control".

 

She doesn't need to be channeled, or to have her "creative energies" put on a better more constructive path ---- she s a rebellious child who despises authority and who has not been made to obey. Plain as that. No need to couch it in ANY other terms. And, this has been allowed to occur. You have to decide how serious getting your child to submit to authority is to you. For myself.....I'd do no school, nothing with her except work on this. You do this in love yet firmly.

 

In a child's mind there's a simple equation in the balance:

NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE TO ME vs. DOING WHAT I WANT.

 

When one side of this outweighs the other, the balance it tipped.

You as the parent can add (using the multitudes of leverage you have over her at this age) whatever to the negative side. We generally use a lovingly-controlled spanking at our home, but if you don't then you could add whatever to that side. Perhaps it's

1. Loading up Fluffy the Dog and letting him spend a week at grandma's

2. Having her unload a HUGE box of her favorite toys at the Goodwill

3. Having a day of rice, beans and water offered to her

4. No TV

5. No swimming

6. Cancel gymnastics lessons

You can get creative here.

 

Now...this is just about how to change behavior------to change the HEART that Tripp book Shepherding a Child's Heart is excellent.

 

I'd get Shepherding a Child's Heart (Tedd Tripp) in the morning.

 

I'd also consider buying the book THE COMPLIANT CHILD about the negative affects having a sibling like that has on the compliant sibling. There's lots at stake here.

 

Also, the book THE NEW STRONG-WILLED CHILD book by Dr. James Dobson.

 

Best wishes to you as you help her!