Atheist Content- lol: Combatting religious influences

[secular_mom]

I would like some ideas on how to combat the influence religion has on my children when they've been exposed to fundamentalist ideas via friends and family. I don't want to shelter my children from others and their beliefs, at least not completely. I have a hard time though, explaining why their friends and extended family behave the way they do and believe the things they do. These influences have NOT been positive, but I'd really rather avoid getting specific as I do NOT want to ruffle feathers.

 

I think I'll leave it at that, I'm too afraid of saying something offensive and that is NOT my intent. I wish there was a large and active secular/atheist message board for homeschoolers, LOL. (if anyone knows of one, feel free to send me a link)

 

I'd appreciate any input- advice, commiseration, book rec's, links and anything else. Thanks for reading.

 

Gin (who hopes she gets some helpful input and hopes she is not starting a flame war by asking for support)

[Audrey]

Dale McGowan of Parenting Beyond Belief now has a book out called Raising Freethinkers: A Practical Guide for Parenting Beyond Belief. We just got it in at my library. It's excellent, and addresses most of your concerns about combatting the undesirable influences of religion. There is a particularly good section on dealing with evangelical-type relatives. I took notes on that section. :)

[secular_mom]

Ahhh, a new book- great. I will check it out ASAP, thank you.

[Renee in NC]

I am not atheist.

 

Approach it no differently that someone who *is* religious does:

 

This is what our family believes. This is why we believe this way. This is why we believe what they do is wrong. This is the response you should have when faced with this particular belief. This is how you should *not* respond to this particular belief.

 

I don't want to shelter my dc from all other beliefs, either. There are all kinds of influence from other people that I have to counteract. I am sure there is for you as well. Don't treat religion any differently than you would anything else.

[StephanieZ]

Oh, I think your issue is rather universal here -- folks trying to protect their kids from bad/contrary-to-family's-values influences.

 

You just have an unusual spin on a common issue.

 

Frankly, I think it comes down to universal good parenting. . . Make *your* influences as good as you can. . . Focus on good things. . . Discuss the differences you see in others' lives/values w/ your kids so they hear your perspective. . . Limit contact with poisonous people as much as possible. . . Stand up for your kids and your self. . .

 

and. . . Teach and model tolerance and comfort with differences. I think a universally good characteristic to foster in our kids is comfort with their *own* values and comfort with being different from others. That inner strength is so important, whatever the religion. . .

 

HTH

[Audrey]

Ahhh, a new book- great. I will check it out ASAP, thank you.

 

 

The blog is good, too. His ideas are infinitely more creative and friendly than my usual (and repeated) requests for certain relatives to keep their religion off my kid. :lol:

[secular_mom]

Don't treat religion any differently than you would anything else.

 

Wow. That's concise. I guess I find it more difficult because we are just surrounded by people who are very vocal about their beliefs, there are bumper stickers everywhere, billboards, church signs, etc. It would be so much easier if the kids couldn't read, :lol:

I guess I need some sort of mantra to constantly remind my children not to tell others what I have told them in private (re religion, etc). I don't want my children to cause others pain, but I don't want others to cause them pain either. It's hard to keep away from 'toxic' people when you live in the bible belt and everyone assumes you are a christian. I don't want to turn into 'that weird, isolated family that homeschools'. :tongue_smilie:

[sassenach]

I'm at the opposite end (we are Christian), but I think the approach would be the same. We are selective about who we allow to be influencers in our kids' lives (both friends and adults) when they are young. As they hit the middle years, we try very hard to be the ones to give them their first exposures to other belief systems. From there, we loosen the reins and talk, talk, talk. My oldest is only 13, so take that for what it's worth, but so far I feel good about the balance we have found.

[Truscifi]

I am not atheist.

 

Approach it no differently that someone who *is* religious does:

 

This is what our family believes. This is why we believe this way. This is why we believe what they do is wrong. This is the response you should have when faced with this particular belief. This is how you should *not* respond to this particular belief.

 

I don't want to shelter my dc from all other beliefs, either. There are all kinds of influence from other people that I have to counteract. I am sure there is for you as well. Don't treat religion any differently than you would anything else.

 

:iagree: I was trying to think of how to say exactly this.

[Wheres Toto]

I'm planning to teach my children about all different religions from a young age so they realize that there are all different kinds of beliefs out there. I think a realization that many people believe many different things (including those that are more historic than current) will help lessen the influence of any one belief system.

 

BTW - there is a secular homeschooling forum. It's nowhere near as active as this one (are any??) but I find it a great place to visit.

[jenn-]

I wish I knew the answer to this one.

[LibraryLover]

I highly recommend the book, "Good Without God". It's written by Humanist Greg Epstein. It's chock-full of gems!

 

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9650818

Edited May 23, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Renee in NC]

Wow. That's concise. I guess I find it more difficult because we are just surrounded by people who are very vocal about their beliefs, there are bumper stickers everywhere, billboards, church signs, etc. It would be so much easier if the kids couldn't read, :lol:

I guess I need some sort of mantra to constantly remind my children not to tell others what I have told them in private (re religion, etc). I don't want my children to cause others pain, but I don't want others to cause them pain either. It's hard to keep away from 'toxic' people when you live in the bible belt and everyone assumes you are a christian. I don't want to turn into 'that weird, isolated family that homeschools'. :tongue_smilie:

 

I am not fundamentalist (anymore) and there are things all over that go against what we believe in. The fundamentalist (and some evangelical) churches teach that we are worse than unbelievers!:lol: It's all good.

 

It *is* very hard to teach your child to be respectful to others when they totally go against what you hold highest. It isn't easy to go against the flow.

 

I don't know many toxic people, though. Not toxic fundamentalists and not toxic atheists. Maybe just try to see who they are beyond the religion and what their true motives are.

[Just Robyn]

I'm planning to teach my children about all different religions from a young age so they realize that there are all different kinds of beliefs out there. I think a realization that many people believe many different things (including those that are more historic than current) will help lessen the influence of any one belief system.

 

BTW - there is a secular homeschooling forum. It's nowhere near as active as this one (are any??) but I find it a great place to visit.

 

Just wanted to say that most of the people who talk on that board are religious; they just use secular materials when they homeschool.

[Wheres Toto]

Just wanted to say that most of the people who talk on that board are religious; they just use secular materials when they homeschool.

 

I always felt they leaned heavy toward the atheist. :001_huh:

[elizabeth]

http://books.google.com/books?id=7P2sXv5JN8MC&pg=RA2-PT1&lpg=RA2-PT1&dq=susan+jacoby+freethinkers&source=bl&ots=zmn8MWieHr&sig=c4p8Xlayruv_HhKrZ6QtGP4M4jI&hl=en&ei=DJP4S6qvEIGglAf-j8H4Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false I have really enjoyed Susan Jacoby's Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism as a starting point for our discussions about religious beliefs, freedom of thought etc My favorite author in the area has to be Richard Dawkins. The Greatest Show on Earth has been instrumental in explaining to dd why we learn science and only science in our science classes at our home. Link here http://richarddawkins.net/ We do study theology but as an academic discipline not prescriptive except in a general values oriented sense and certainly it is not limited to Christianity. To accomplish said goal we are using books on religious anthropology, critical historical analyses of many religious texts and the late, great Mary Douglas's work . Link here to her most accessible book . I took copious notes, wrote lectures to match other resources and voila a course that reflects my convictions.

http://books.google.com/books?id=J-CQRQwODVsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=mary+douglas&source=bl&ots=TD91sRuarx&sig=wD60hZC_69IQ_VFzpvy_CHMYVQk&hl=en&ei=IpX4S-TkJsK78gatzMzTCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

[kalanamak]

I would like some ideas on how to combat the influence religion has on my children when they've been exposed to fundamentalist ideas via friends and family.

 

My old saw: be the example. I grew up in the Bible belt. My parents quoted the Bible. I watched the Bell movies (Hemo the Magnificent, e.g.) which mention a deity. We said prayer before lunch at my public school. I remember my father pulling my mother aside to confirm he was pronouncing "vaya con dios" correctly before saying goodbye to a Spanish priest we'd spent a pleasant train ride with. All of that.

 

Even so, I thought that was all just polite tradition, and was fully 12 years old before I had a conversation with a peer who was shocked I was not a believer. I was shocked she was. I honestly thought people when to church to dress up, see their friends, and sing.:D

[LibraryLover]

I really think searching US southerners might very much enjoy the book, I Want to be Left Behind, by southern naturalist Brenda Peterson:

http://www.amazon.com/Want-Be-Left-Behind-Finding/dp/0306818043

Edited May 23, 2010 by LibraryLover

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I'm planning to teach my children about all different religions from a young age so they realize that there are all different kinds of beliefs out there. I think a realization that many people believe many different things (including those that are more historic than current) will help lessen the influence of any one belief system.

 

BTW - there is a secular homeschooling forum. It's nowhere near as active as this one (are any??) but I find it a great place to visit.

 

:iagree: My dh and I have unitarian universalist/episcopalian leanings and want to give our ds a good understanding of world religions as well as impart our own beliefs and values:001_smile:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Thank you for starting this thread!

 

I was going to suggest the books that Audrey already suggested and then I was going to suggest the secular site that someone else suggested. (I'm HoodOrnament over there!) I can see now that my work here is just about done!

 

One thing we do with our oldest, and will with the youngers as appropriate is talk, talk, talk about current events, books, movies, conversations ,etc.

 

 

We watch 30 Days, the show that Morgan Spurlock produced years ago (available on Instant Download from Netflix!) My oldest has learned a lot about the reasoning behind other people's belief systems and I appreciate that. Of course, conversation always follows. :001_smile:

[Allearia]

There is a Well Trained Mind Secular yahoo group that gets frequent posts - I don't follow it that much any more but it might be a good place to talk with likeminded people.

 

Also, studying a lot of different religions and history so they see how many people believe differently from each other, and differently from the people you are likely to meet in your area, so there is not so much a sense of everyone but your family believing just one certain way.

 

Alternatively you could move to Berkeley where we don't often run into this issue. :001_smile:

[LauraGB]

Also, studying a lot of different religions and history so they see how many people believe differently from each other, and differently from the people you are likely to meet in your area, so there is not so much a sense of everyone but your family believing just one certain way.

 

 

 

I was going to suggest this as well. With so many different faiths, it might actually be easier for your kids to see things the way your family does. I don't know how old your kids are, but I would also suggest studying the psychology of faith - why people need their faith (regardless of what it is) and how it affects them. I think this is very important considering how pertinent religion of all kinds has been throughout the history of mankind - and it's doubtful it's going to change now. It likely will help them to be understanding as well as expect to be understood and accepted themselves.

Edited May 23, 2010 by LauraGB

[Wheres Toto]

There is also a secular homeschoolers yahoo group (and one for off-topic posts) that are very active.

[elizabeth]

I was going to suggest this as well. With so many different faiths, it might actually be easier for your kids to see things the way your family does. I don't know how old your kids are, but I would also suggest studying the psychology of faith - why people need their faith (regardless of what it is) and how it affects them. I think this is very important considering how pertinent religion of all kinds has been throughout the history of mankind - and it's doubtful it's going to change now. It likely will help them to be understanding as well as expect to be understood and accepted themselves.

 

This is a great point. I absolutely love William James' Varieties of Religious Experience and so the Amazon list grows and grows.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I try to remind my daughter that I like to think that the concern that religious people show for atheists (well, concern that SOME show for atheists) is out of true compassion and that their belief system dictates that people who don't believe miss out on the good stuff: blessings/benevolence/immortality.

 

That's hard to remember when another homeschooling mom is IN MY FACE (literally, could feel her spittle upon my lip) asking me, "WHY AREN'T YOU A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE?"

 

At times like that it is difficult to remember the warm and fuzzy stuff I wrote in the first paragraph, but....just like not all christians are not like HER, not all atheists are in your face debaters like the Rude Atheist that most christians claim to have encountered.

 

I don't care WHAT you and your family believe, as long as part of it is "be good to your family". If we can come together on some common ground like that, then we are golden.

[KidsHappen]

I highly recommend the book, "Good Without God". It's written by Humanist Greg Epstein. It's chock-full of gems!

 

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9650818

 

I have this out from the library right now. I haven't had a chance to read it yet but I am glad to hear it is recommended.

[LauraGB]

That's hard to remember when another homeschooling mom is IN MY FACE (literally, could feel her spittle upon my lip) asking me, "WHY AREN'T YOU A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE?"

 

 

 

Ah, but that has little to do with her faith and more to do with her poor personality.

 

Gandhi said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." While it certainly doesn't apply to all Christians, and likely not even most, it does refer to what some people through their own flawed character do with the faith itself. And it applies to everyone - whether of faith, or faithless.

 

I hear you though. When I encounter people like that, I think of the above quote.

[Just Robyn]

I always felt they leaned heavy toward the atheist. :001_huh:

 

Well, for the sake of numbers I just went through a long thread there where people felt compelled to state their religious beliefs and I count 13 religious (including the person who runs it as a means to advertise Time4Learning), 5 atheist/agnostic, and a few undisclosed. If we assume the undisclosed people are atheists it may be about half and half, in which case I suppose my claim that most people there are religious is a slight exaggeration.

 

Sorry, but what if I, as an atheist, decided to start a board called Christian Homeschool? If nobody else finds that offensive then okie dokie.

[eternalknot]

We treat religion as a culture.

 

My husband and I both come from very different ethnic and national cultures; the "cultural" distinction is one my children have grown to understand well. Dad's family does x, y and z, but Mom's does it a, b, and c. Our nuclear family may do it x, b, and q.

 

The kids are being raised Catholic in a heavily fundamental, Protestant Christian majority who regularly remind the kids that they aren't "real" Christians, et cetera. I grew up with an Eastern faith and philosophy, and these same well-intended but misguided folks have told my kids to pray for me since I'm going to hell. Many of our exchanges aren't hostile, these people genuinely fear for us ::shrug:: and refuse to respect our personal beliefs as being right for us.

 

So, ... I tell the kids that these people follow religious (or philosophical) cultures that differ from ours. We sometimes go point by point over comments we've heard, or general beliefs and dogma. Othertimes we end the conversation with a simple, "That's their religious culture, and what they believe." I do let my kids know that it's inappropriate to challenge someone else's beliefs (no win situation, waste of time!) even when directed at my kids, BUT that when judged it's totally appropriate for them to assert that they don't share the person's beliefs and don't wish to hear any more directed towards them. I've encouraged them to dialogue with people of different faith cultures when the situation was non-confrontational, both in words and by example.

 

Arm your kids with confidence, welcome their questions of other faiths, and do age-appropriate exposure so under your guidance they become familiar with the religious influences they'll encounter outside of the home. It's like in debate club -- learn the opposition's viewpoint so you can more successfully argue (or share/promote) your own.

[Tangerine]

I'm surprised that people are responding positively to the suggestion to say "This is not what our family believes".

 

I would certainly say "This is not what I, or your Dad believe", but I'm not raising my children to be atheists. I don't think I would be much surprised if they were, but I wouldn't tell them what to believe. I teach them that our family is (insert character trait)...kind, charitable..what have you. But I don't teach them "Our family does not believe in the celestial kingdom like Grandma does", or "We don't believe in Jesus like (other) Grandma does".

[Karen in CO]

Wow - I watch Frankenstein with my ds and have a great discussion of Victor's moral failings then I get to see this beautiful thread. What a terrific night.

 

I treat religion just like I do everything thing else. We talk about it and read about and ask and answer lots of questions about it. I use the phrase, "Some people believe" quiet a lot.

 

We also spend time studying wisdom tales and folk tales from different cultures. It gives us great opportunities to talk about different experiences and influences in culture. We spend time following themes from different religions too - such as creation stories, flood stories, stories of great leaders found in rivers, stories of animals helping humans, trickster tales. And whenever we encounter a reference to a religion we don't know about, we look it up and read about it. Easy peasy.

 

My dd9 was very relieved to learn that there are countries in the world that are not majority Christian. My youngest currently thinks Tibetan Buddhism is the best religion. The middle is currently considering Roman gods as the best. She quickly discarded Norse gods because Hel is a creature not a place. My oldest is living in Japan and spending time in various temples talking to holy men and monks when he isn't in class.

 

In short, I've found that the best way to combat a particular religious influence is to water it down with lots of other religious influences. Education is the key to dispelling myths, but I don't want to throw out all of human history and storytelling along with the bad religious influences.

 

btw - my favorite creation story is Big Momma Makes the World, it gives you the 7 days of creation with a big bang and southern accent. Cracks me up every time I read it.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Karen in CO

[Just Robyn]

I'm surprised that people are responding positively to the suggestion to say "This is not what our family believes".

 

I would certainly say "This is not what I, or your Dad believe", but I'm not raising my children to be atheists. I don't think I would be much surprised if they were, but I wouldn't tell them what to believe. I teach them that our family is (insert character trait)...kind, charitable..what have you. But I don't teach them "Our family does not believe in the celestial kingdom like Grandma does", or "We don't believe in Jesus like (other) Grandma does".

 

Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't.

 

I don't blame religious people for raising their children to be religious (or attempting to do so) because they truly believe ___whatever religious belief___ and possibly believe that if they don't raise their child to believe X then there may be some negative consequence(s). I guess I think it's up to the parent to convey their belief, and up to the child to question it and come to their own conclusion when they're ready. I don't believe my young children are ready to really think logically and thoroughly about this, so I'll do it for them until they're older and I'll try to make them feel comfortable with disagreeing with me when the time comes.

 

That said, all of that above is just thoughts I have. The things I actually say to my children are usually more like you said, "I believe X." And to some things, "No one knows." However, if my child comes home from Grandma's house with the belief that they are going to hell or that I am, well, I see no need to let them go on "freely thinking" that.

[keptwoman]

I'm surprised that people are responding positively to the suggestion to say "This is not what our family believes".

 

I would certainly say "This is not what I, or your Dad believe", but I'm not raising my children to be atheists. I don't think I would be much surprised if they were, but I wouldn't tell them what to believe. I teach them that our family is (insert character trait)...kind, charitable..what have you. But I don't teach them "Our family does not believe in the celestial kingdom like Grandma does", or "We don't believe in Jesus like (other) Grandma does".

I feel the same way. Having spent a number of years of my life working through NOT believing what my parents expected that I should, I have been careful not to place that expectation on my children. We often discuss beliefs, but it's always discussed as a personal thing.

I also struggle with the idea that a child believing different than they were taught as children is a problem. I've seen it in my own parents, experienced their grief. But I still think that in the end, surely a young adult who has thought through the issues for themselves and come up with their own thoughts and ideas on this issue is to be admired, and trusted to have chosen what is best for them. I think the only issue I would really have with my children's belief systems is if they chose to join a cult.

[Heather in Neverland]

I don't blame religious people for raising their children to be religious (or attempting to do so) because they truly believe ___whatever religious belief___ and possibly believe that if they don't raise their child to believe X then there may be some negative consequence(s). I guess I think it's up to the parent to convey their belief, and up to the child to question it and come to their own conclusion when they're ready. I don't believe my young children are ready to really think logically and thoroughly about this, so I'll do it for them until they're older and I'll try to make them feel comfortable with disagreeing with me when the time comes.

 

.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Carrie12345]

In my house, we touch on what Mom and Dad believe (or don't, however you want to look at it), and we've REALLY focused intently on the roots of multiple religions, starting with SOTW and moving through our library's religion section.

 

My grammar-stage kids have loved soaking it all in. Dd8 claims to be a polytheist ala ancient Greece and Egypt. We don't correct her, because we feel there's real value in her desire to keep learning more about it, even if it really is "only at grammar-stage level". The wheels are turning.

 

My logic-stage kid has always defined himself as a Christian-Jew (I was raised Lutheran, his bio-dad was raised Jewish). By studying the history, he's uncovered the glitch in that idea, and recently decided he was agnostic. He's not prepared to fully let go, and that's okay by me, because he's still willing to keep thinking.

 

In my mind, there has to be autonomy in the "choice", or it's no longer any different from being raised in a religion. Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

There is a yahoo group for atheist/agnostic/humanist parents through Foundation Beyond Belief (Dale McGowan's brainchild). We're working on starting up parenting groups across the country to foster that sense of support and community.

Interestingly, there are quite a few homeschoolers representing!

 

I'll answer PMs with the link. Membership does have to be approved by admins.

[secular_mom]

I'm surprised that people are responding positively to the suggestion to say "This is not what our family believes".

 

I would certainly say "This is not what I, or your Dad believe", but I'm not raising my children to be atheists. I don't think I would be much surprised if they were, but I wouldn't tell them what to believe. I teach them that our family is (insert character trait)...kind, charitable..what have you. But I don't teach them "Our family does not believe in the celestial kingdom like Grandma does", or "We don't believe in Jesus like (other) Grandma does".

 

Yes, this. I don't want my children to just be mini-mes. I don't want to follow the religious route of training them to have the same beliefs that I do, I want to raise free-thinkers.

[secular_mom]

Okay, so our social studies will now be focused on different religious traditions around the world for a bit- as opposed to geography/map reading skills/etc. Actually, world religions folds nicely in with geography so that's great. Thank you all for the input. There's always a logical answer, it's just hard to see it sometimes when your emotions are a bit raw from being hurt/seeing your children hurt by others' words and actions.

 

I'm thinking maybe I should not be so timid about being an atheist, especially among other homeschoolers. Before it was an attempt to 'keep the peace' when I stayed out of such conversations and didn't butt in when someone went all bible quotey at such meetings. But really, it's not keeping peace is it? Not if the result is my kids being confused/scared/hurt. The feelings of adults do NOT trump the needs of my children.

My young ones are 8, 6 and 4 BTW.

 

We tend to do 'our own thing' most of the time, that may just become ALL of the time. Maybe instead of park days we should just invite like-minded friends to join us at the park and so on.

 

Thanks for letting me 'think out loud' here. And thank you all so much for the links and book rec's.

[radiobrain]

whoops

Edited May 23, 2010 by radiobrain
TMI. realize it is not particularly relevant. not enough coffee.

[Just Robyn]

We tend to do 'our own thing' most of the time, that may just become ALL of the time. Maybe instead of park days we should just invite like-minded friends to join us at the park and so on.

 

I started a secular homeschool meetup group in my area and it has been great! I was surprised at how quickly the group grew without my promoting it at all. It's not huge (currently 19 members), but neither is my city, and like I said I have done nothing so far to really get the word out. It just got out on its own. Good luck!

[Ester Maria]

Well, we are a "there is only one G-d, and we don't believe in Him" family. :D Atheists, but remaining culturally Jewish.

 

We have always approached Judaism (and, on an informative level, Catholicism - being from Italy, we had to culturally cover that too so that they would know what it's about) as a heritage and as a culture, rather than as the actual belief that we hold, and "some of our family members still go on with that tradition - we have chosen not to, but it's still ours, it's something we stem fromand we must know about it and respect it". :)

My daughters learn and speak Hebrew, spend time in Israel, stay with their father's religious family with no issues, they have mingled a bit with various American Jewish circles as well - and at home we talk about all of that.

 

When controversial questions occur, we openly them what we do (not) believe, as opposed to some other people they know. We also provide them with "why"s if needed.

When we study Judaics - and we do, for several hours a week - we study them as a tradition rather than belief, as a system that we need to learn to think "inside" of it when we talk about it. So, dad's family does X because within that system, X is done because the "coordinates" of X in that system are related to coordinates Y, Z, K, whatever, but those are the things that exist only WITHIN that system, and for the outsider, there is no inherent meaning for most of the things inside.

 

When kids ask question about the world - we turn them to science. When they start asking whether a religious viewpoint is a "legitimate" alternative to the scientific one, we talk to them about why yes and why no.

We don't fill their heads with Dawkins or Hitchens - but if they come across "positive atheism", they're allowed to read, watch, ask questions, discuss, agree and disagree.

 

Regarding negative influences, so far we've had very few incidents with other faiths, we teach tolerance, but we do NOT and will NEVER teach "tolerance of the intolerance" and teach them to remain passive when they notice intolerance and hatred camouflaged in a religion.

If asked about our opinion on very controversial issues, we answer - no matter how "politically incorrect" it might be - insisting that it's our personal opinion, and it doesn't have to be the same conclusion they come to. And we instruct them to keep such conversations private, not to provoke anyone, and connect to people on other levels in public.

 

We intend to do some kind of comparative religion study as well. It's an important phenomenon that needs to be addressed - culturally, theologically, politically (its impacts on the world), psychologically... Whatever you can squeeze in, depending on the child's interest.

 

We also don't skip art that's related to religions - or music, literature, etc. They've been to the Western Wall, Vatican, SS. Pietro e Paolo, Meteora and various similar places, and will be to many more - and act accordingly and respectfully. :)

 

Basically, I have the opposite approach than many fundamentalists - I think that knowledge is power, that knowledge isn't something to refuse, and I'll purposely expose them to what I personally disagree with as well, if it's an important puzzle in understanding the world, who they are and where they come from. The last thing I want would be to present them the phenomenon of religion as a sort of "forbidden fruit". What they later decide for themselves... it's their decision.

[justamouse]

We do a lot of talking in my house about it.

 

I don't want them to be automatons, so I don't say, "This is what we believe and you respond like this, and believe what I say." But I explain why the others think the way they do, and why I believe the way I do. I explain the space between and how I came to my beliefs. (I'm more of a homechurch/organic church UUish from a strict fundamental/Reformed upbringing.)

 

It's like this-If my kids want to become Buddhists, I'm OK with that. If they want to be atheist, I'm OK with that. Whatever. Really. We all have our journey, and they have theirs. I DO make sure that I teach them to respect all people, no matter what they believe.

[simka2]

I try to remind my daughter that I like to think that the concern that religious people show for atheists (well, concern that SOME show for atheists) is out of true compassion and that their belief system dictates that people who don't believe miss out on the good stuff: blessings/benevolence/immortality.

 

That's hard to remember when another homeschooling mom is IN MY FACE (literally, could feel her spittle upon my lip) asking me, "WHY AREN'T YOU A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE?"

 

At times like that it is difficult to remember the warm and fuzzy stuff I wrote in the first paragraph, but....just like not all christians are not like HER, not all atheists are in your face debaters like the Rude Atheist that most christians claim to have encountered.

 

I don't care WHAT you and your family believe, as long as part of it is "be good to your family". If we can come together on some common ground like that, then we are golden.

 

 

:iagree:Very well put! As someone who has walked away from the fundamentalist/evangelical camp...I struggle with similar issues with my own kids. A very basic and simple form of faith has remained intact for me, but not the religous system I used to be a part of.

 

I like to remind my kiddos to try to think the best about someones motives, and even if their wrong (IMO) we can be compassionate and try to understand where they are coming from.

 

On another note, I grew up with aethiest parents who tried to insulate me from Christian influences. Even as a young child I couldn't understand why they felt so threatened by them. Eventually, because of how anti-christian influence they were I submerged myself in that culture.

 

I now understand some of what they were concerned about. I just wish they had been as open to the good points of faith, as they wanted others to be open to "free thinking."

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

what a great thread. We're currently reading Heidi out loud, and have had some great conversations about religion/belief systems sparked from that book. For us, it comes up in conversation a lot because we are surrounded (like you, but probably to a lesser extent) by religious folk who either assume we believe likewise or religious folk who vehemently try to make us believe the way they do.

 

I always demand respect from my children toward others' religion, even when the religious folks' disrespect toward our lack of religion is apparent. We bow our heads when a prayer is said, we'll even hold hands. The kids have been to church with Grandma, and then we discuss how much we love Grandma and how important her religion is to her, and why our love of Grandma allows us to accept her beliefs without believing them ourselves. I have even asked my older son not to argue with Grandma because he is not going to change her mind, and it will cause her emotional distress, which we want to avoid, out of our love for her. Maybe that's hypocritical? If so, I wish religious people could be that hypocritical toward me.

 

One book that my 8 & 10 year old have both enjoyed is Maybe Yes, Maybe No by Dan Barker. I see he has some others that look interesting, too. My goal is not to raise atheists, but to raise skeptics. Individuals who can think for themselves and question everything. Of course, this means I get questioned *a lot* more than I would like :tongue_smilie:. I see religious folk pretty much forcing their children into the faith and I don't want to replicate that in the opposite. I'd like to think I present both sides (or all sides, since it is not really a us-vs-them thing) fairly, but know my bias is toward non-belief of a personal deity, but maintaining respect for others as the foundation for all.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I would approach it the same way we Christians approach these things.

 

Making clear what we believe and our family values all the time while I'm teaching them helps them to see the differences for themselves. When they are confused, they ask.

 

I don't try to turn everything into a lesson on "We belive this, they believe that, this is the difference..." I really do want kids who think for themselves and can form their own opinion on religious matters without my influence. At some point they're going to have to do that, right?

 

When I see an absolutely confusing situation, be it in a conversation with someone, or a life-situation with someone, and I see that they are trying to process it all, I ask them if they want to talk. If they say yes, I let them lead the conversation. If they say no, as hard as that is for me, I let it go.

 

All this to say, that honestly, most of their confusion has come from Christians who don't live up to what they say they believe rather than from athiests (eventhough we get plenty of exposure to them). I'll bet it's the same for your dc. They see inconsistencies in the walk of people who are supposed to believe as they do and it gets a tad confusing.

 

ETA: I don't want to indoctrinate my dc. I want them to have a PERSONAL relationship with God. When they choose how that will look for them, then, and only then, will it be hard for anyone to sway them from their beliefs. I would assume that's the same with athiests.

[simka2]

My goal is not to raise atheists, but to raise skeptics. Individuals who can think for themselves and question everything. Of course, this means I get questioned *a lot* more than I would like :tongue_smilie:. I see religious folk pretty much forcing their children into the faith and I don't want to replicate that in the opposite. I'd like to think I present both sides (or all sides, since it is not really a us-vs-them thing) fairly, but know my bias is toward non-belief of a personal deity, but maintaining respect for others as the foundation for all.

:iagree:I love the way you put this! Although I come from the other view point "My goal is not to raise fundamentalist or conservative christians, but to raise skeptics."

 

We talk a lot in our home, about what they learned at church, in their studies, or from friends. Many times I have to "clarify" something they "heard" in kids church. Although, more often than not, this is an issue of them misunderstanding what was said. On the other hand there have been plenty of times where we have said, "I know pastor so in so belives that, but we do not."

[secular_mom]

 

 

All this to say, that honestly, most of their confusion has come from Christians who don't live up to what they say they believe rather than from athiests (eventhough we get plenty of exposure to them). I'll bet it's the same for your dc. They see inconsistencies in the walk of people who are supposed to believe as they do and it gets a tad confusing.

 

ETA: I don't want to indoctrinate my dc. I want them to have a PERSONAL relationship with God. When they choose how that will look for them, then, and only then, will it be hard for anyone to sway them from their beliefs. I would assume that's the same with athiests.

 

Well, no, not really. There is not set of 'beliefs' that we have, there is no 'inconsistency in the walk' of people who 'believe as they (dc) do'. I'm not concerned about someone 'swaying' my children from atheism.

Really, handling things the way religious folks do is not much of an option for me (of course, depends on how an individual religious person handles such things). I am not 'religiously atheist' ;)

 

I'm seeing a connection here though, between my introverted tendencies and the need to talk and talk and talk and talk and talk some more about these issues with my dc. *sighs*

I'm really not a gabby mother, I hate micro-managing and really do as little 'instructing' as possible- that's my 'style'. Ironically, my talking about such things so much will raise their eyebrows and make this subject seem more... serious/heavy/etc. for them. Hmmmmm. I don't want to burden my children, and I don't want anyone else to burden them.

 

I think reading more mythology and folk tales will certainly help them be able to brush off some of the disturbing/bizarre things others have said more easily. Funny thing here, neighbor boy who visits and usually has a tall tale to share with them is helping tremendously. He's teaching them not to believe everything they hear, especially from other children, and especially if someone is making extraordinary claims. :D

[annandatje]

Okay, so our social studies will now be focused on different religious traditions around the world for a bit- as opposed to geography/map reading skills/etc. Actually, world religions folds nicely in with geography so that's great. Thank you all for the input. There's always a logical answer, it's just hard to see it sometimes when your emotions are a bit raw from being hurt/seeing your children hurt by others' words and actions.

 

I'm thinking maybe I should not be so timid about being an atheist, especially among other homeschoolers. Before it was an attempt to 'keep the peace' when I stayed out of such conversations and didn't butt in when someone went all bible quotey at such meetings. But really, it's not keeping peace is it? Not if the result is my kids being confused/scared/hurt. The feelings of adults do NOT trump the needs of my children.

My young ones are 8, 6 and 4 BTW.

 

We tend to do 'our own thing' most of the time, that may just become ALL of the time. Maybe instead of park days we should just invite like-minded friends to join us at the park and so on.

 

Thanks for letting me 'think out loud' here. And thank you all so much for the links and book rec's.

 

 

My students are middle schooler and high schoolers now, but we followed path you did. It worked well for us.

 

I suspect your children may have suffered same ostracism by some homeschoolers that mine did when they honestly responded to private probing questions.

 

However, we fortunately did not have relatives attempting to proselytize our children.

[Desert Rat]

Thanks, Audrey. I'm excited about a new book too.

[hillfarm]

Related in a tangential way, I bought a nice book yesterday at Borders Bookstore called Faiths and Religions of the World by David Gibbons. The reason I bought it was because it has a number of interesting timelines that help to explain what was happening with a number of world religions simultaneously. The book was in the sale section of the store and the tag said it was only $5.99. With my homeschool teacher discount, it rang up at only $4.49! What a deal for a nice, coffee table sized book that will fit in with our history and comparison of religions history unit next year.

[Karen in CO]

Yeah - I think that with the ages of your kids a mythology around the world would be a terrific excursion. It really helps them to see that there is a great variety of thought in the human experience. Folktales, Wisdom Tales, trickster tales, mythologies, and fairy tales are great places to find this in a way that kids can relate to. It is easy to tie it into geography and it will actually add some good depth to your later studies. If you have girls, it is fun to find the Cinderella stories from different cultures and compare them to see what they say about the people who told them and the world they lived in. WIth my older dd, we usually discuss what kind of experiences everyday people had in order to tell these kinds of tales to their children or to adopt these beliefs as their sacred stories. What kind of people need a god like Loki? What is the benefit to a group to have a belief like .......

 

As I type this you've got to see the irony of what is sitting in the window in front of me. Two candles from the box that we used for Halloween and a Buddha statue are sitting on top of a book about the Easter bunny, a book of evolution, and a book of wisdom stories from around the world along with a carved dragon from the wizard shop. But my dd recognized a statue of Ganesh when we saw one last week in the oriental store, can tell you the five pillars of Islam, and knows what the Pentecost is. She bows her head when my brother says prayers at dinner out of respect for his beliefs, declines when invited to Awanas, would never serve meat to a Buddhist, believes that people cannot own the earth or its resources, believes it is wrong to eat a fertilized chicken egg because it is alive, and knows that she isn't the only the only atheist in the world.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Karen in CO