Do you personally know of a man who became a better husband as a result of his wife's

[Sweetpeach]

I'm glad things are working out in your marriage. :)

 

In mine, I just had to come to terms with the fact that God won't mess with someone's free will. If my husband wants to be evil, he will be evil, and all my begging God and doing anything and everything to be the best wife ever won't change him if he doesn't want to change. It was a hard lesson, learning that me trying until I have nothing left to give and I am worked to the bone won't fix things. I think when a husband isn't truly evil, he often will respond to God pulling at his heart and to his wife loving him. Unfortunately, despite how much God loves his children, many will chose the path of evil.

 

I all-the-way agree with you.

 

Evil or non-responsive spouses leaves the partner in a very difficult situation; an uphill battle to recover what was lost.

 

I'm starting to think that recovery is a life-long journey.

 

[is it, Joanne? Do you think any of us ever come to a place where we feel ok in our skin?]

 

Warmly, Tricia

[smrtmama]

I agree with you that it goes both ways. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, submission means to act as a helpless child rather than the helpmate God intended. I even had a lady once say to me that she preferred to have her husband make all the decisions because then she could never be blamed for making the wrong one. One wife, in labor with her 5th child, had to call her dh at work to ask *when* she could call the midwife!

 

 

People seem to be redefining the word "submission" to make it suit them or to feel better about using that word. The definition of "submission" DOES involve meekness and turning over of your power -- that is what the word MEANS. "The act of submitting to the power of another" or "The state of being submissive or compliant; meekness." There's nothing about "getting along" in that definition. If that isn't what someone wants what they're doing to be called, they should find another word.

[gardening momma]

I don't know why I torture myself by peeking into these threads, they always depress me. :(

 

Of course if one person submits in a marriage (and apparently it must always be the woman), the marriage will improve!

 

sigh... I'm right behind ya, Laurie!

 

I completely disagree with the above statement as do most of the members who responded to this thread. I don't think you read it, but just responded as soon as you saw the word submission.

I read it as a tongue-in-cheek comment, not a serious statement.

[Sweetpeach]

Yes, it takes one person to start the changes in the marriage.

 

Yes, that's right, Lovedtodeath. I agree with you.

[Plucky]

I agree with you that it goes both ways. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, submission means to act as a helpless child rather than the helpmate God intended. I even had a lady once say to me that she preferred to have her husband make all the decisions because then she could never be blamed for making the wrong one. One wife, in labor with her 5th child, had to call her dh at work to ask *when* she could call the midwife!

 

I've experienced this in the past, too. There are a couple protestant denominations that take women's submission to an unhealthy and I believe un-Biblical level. My church always talks about the husband's responsibility to submit to his wife before we ever talk about wives' submission.

[Plucky]

People seem to be redefining the word "submission" to make it suit them or to feel better about using that word. The definition of "submission" DOES involve meekness and turning over of your power -- that is what the word MEANS. "The act of submitting to the power of another" or "The state of being submissive or compliant; meekness." There's nothing about "getting along" in that definition. If that isn't what someone wants what they're doing to be called, they should find another word.

 

I don't know. I think some people just have a general ax to grind against religion and look for things to pick at. I can and do consider submission differently, and it's fine with me.

[Miss Marple]

I think the ideas of this type are similar to the idea that if we Christians homeschool we will be guaranteed to have Godly children who don't mess up like the public schooled kids. Well, I've seen too many examples of *that* notion proven false.

 

The monkey wrench in the whole thing is that you are dealing with another individual who has a free will. You are responsible for your conduct, the other party is responsible to God for his. Your actions may or may not change his. If we are behaving as God calls us to behave, we are assured that God will be pleased. We are not assured that the other party will change. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. You cannot change another person's heart - that's the job of the Holy Spirit and it also requires a receptive heart for that to occur.

 

Our job is to build an environment that would allow for conviction on the part of the dh's heart. When we do as we are called to do, we create that environment. How dh deals with that conviction is between him and God.

[Firefly]

I completely disagree with the above statement as do most of the members who responded to this thread. I don't think you read it, but just responded as soon as you saw the word submission.

 

Sorry, I DID read the entire thread... hence the torture part. :D I stand by my statement. If ultimately, one person gets to make all the decisions (because the other "submits"/acquiesces/whatever you want to call it), there is going to be improvement. In and of itself acquiescing is not a bad thing; IMO it's when it must always be the ONE person--by virtue of his/her genitalia-- that I disagree entirely.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Firefly
for clarification/typo

[justamouse]

Nevermind...

[smrtmama]

I don't know. I think some people just have a general ax to grind against religion and look for things to pick at. I can and do consider submission differently, and it's fine with me.

 

Words have power, though. That's not an issue of looking for things to pick at. To say "oh, submission isn't about being meek or having someone else have power over you" is to completely ignore the definition of the word. That word, which doesn't appear in the original Greek, was chosen for the English translation for a reason. You have to consider what that reason was. It's not enough to say that you ascribe a different definition to the word.

[Sputterduck]

I think the ideas of this type are similar to the idea that if we Christians homeschool we will be guaranteed to have Godly children who don't mess up like the public schooled kids. Well, I've seen too many examples of *that* notion proven false.

 

Hey! Don't ruin my illusion! :lol:

[smrtmama]

Hey! Don't ruin my illusion! :lol:

 

Or that if we have obedient children, nothing bad will happen to them. I had a woman ask me if my DS1 broke his arm falling out of the tree because he was being disobedient! Obedience doesn't stop gravity.

[lovemykids]

Submission? Hmmmm....

 

I have seen husbands become better when the wife stopped being so submissive that she was a doormat and both mates learned what submission in marriage really means.

 

I have seen husbands improved because of their wife's good Christian example overall. But submission, by itself, NO.

 

I have seen wives become Christians and in addition to other changes set a perfect example of submission and all of that has improved the husband.

 

More often than that though I see an imperfect idea of submission being played out that contributes to an abusive relationship and/or a man's loss of love and respect for the wife.

 

If I had to vote I would say that "No, this is an evil myth" is the one closest to how I have seen things played out. I voted "other".

 

ITA!

:lurk5:

[Lovedtodeath]

I know of a marriage in which one person always submits and it is terrible! It is certainly not making either mate happy, and definitlely not the one submitting all of the time!

[Lovedtodeath]

Words have power, though. That's not an issue of looking for things to pick at. To say "oh, submission isn't about being meek or having someone else have power over you" is to completely ignore the definition of the word. That word, which doesn't appear in the original Greek, was chosen for the English translation for a reason. You have to consider what that reason was. It's not enough to say that you ascribe a different definition to the word.

Well, some of us are encouraged to look at the original language and meaning of the scriptures and have publications provided by our religion in order to do so. That may be where a different meaning is coming from. It makes sense.

[Miss Marple]

Obedience doesn't stop gravity.

:lol:

[Cricket]

I voted yes but I'm rethinking that. I think my marriage now (14 years) is very good in part due to my submission but not solely because of that. Submission in our marriage means I don't nag and criticize my dh. If something is important to him, I try to make it somewhat important to me as well. (I could live with lots of clutter, dh can't so I make an effort to decrease my clutter. I'm still working on that one!) Submission means becoming less selfish and self-focused. I wouldn't say that our marriage is great because of my submission but I don't think it would be as good as it is if I wasn't that way. Dh is very conscientious of me and my needs. If he wasn't, then I don't think me submitting would necessarily change that. But my submission allows that part of him to grow stronger I think.

 

There is something to the old adage "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar." :)

[The Girls' Mom]

I voted yes, because I've seen it personally.

 

However, it depends completely on what you mean by submission. I submit to my husband. Do I or would I allow him to abuse me or our children in any way? NO. That is NOT what God requires of me. He requires me to let my husband lead our household, to be our spiritual leader, and our provider. If my husband should fail at those, then I would step up to the plate, because I am to be his helpmeet. Then it's between him and God to deal with the consequences.

 

What does submission look like for us? When important decisions are made, we discuss it and both give our opinions. But unless I feel it's detrimental to our family, he gets the final say so on it. I run things by him before I do them. I let him know what my plans for the day/week/month, whatever, are. I take care of our home and our children.

 

Now, in upholding his end of what God wants submission to look like, he is careful with his "authority" and doesn't abuse it in any way. He loves me, like Christ loves the church. He sacrifices to provide for our family, and leads us spiritually. He will also help with the house, when I ask. He's involved with our kids.

 

I am not meek. I am not 'whipped'. I have opinions, and I voice them. I can take care of myself when and if the need arises. I am not a pushover or a doormat. I have the respect of my husband, even when I submit to him. He doesn't lord it over me.

 

I think the whole idea that you have to be a wimpy little doormat to be a submissive wife is so damaging to marriage in general.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Apryl H

[Mabeline]

:iagree:

 

I am not talking about a wife becoming a cringing doormat. I am talking about a wife choosing to build her husband up by respecting him rather than tear him down by constantly doubting' date=' questioning, second-guessing, and nagging. When I show my dh respect and try to follow his lead, the dance goes much more smoothly, and is more fun for BOTH of us.[/quote']

 

:iagree:

[smrtmama]

:lol:

 

If it did, I might reconsider the whole submission thing, though, because I fall down like crazy. ;)

[angela in ohio]

:iagree:

 

I am not talking about a wife becoming a cringing doormat. I am talking about a wife choosing to build her husband up by respecting him rather than tear him down by constantly doubting' date=' questioning, second-guessing, and nagging. When I show my dh respect and try to follow his lead, the dance goes much more smoothly, and is more fun for BOTH of us.[/quote']

 

Yep. My dh is more successful in his career, more happy, and a better father because of my submission. In return, I am happier.

 

I also saw it very clearly with some friends of ours (and I've seen the opposite, as well.)

Edited November 16, 2009 by angela in ohio

[LittleIzumi]

I'm not generally the submissive type. ;) But when dh is acting really Christlike, he makes much better decisions, and I am happy to support him in those decisions. Usually he is happy to submit to my decisions :tongue_smilie:. But we're not working on an OT model, ourselves.

[OnTheBrink]

Well, if you're a Christian and if you're married to a Christian, submission is only half of the equation. Biblical submission isn't demeaning; it's saying that ultimately, it all falls on the husband. BUT, that doesn't mean the husband gets to lord over his wife. Scripture is very clear that the opposite is the case. The husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church, meaning, he is to give himself up for her. He is to put himself aside for her. She comes first in his life (outside of God, I mean). She is to respect him, support him, put him first. It's a circle, sort of. No, it's really an inverted cone. The love and respect is a flat circle, both the husband and wife love/repect/submit to each other out of obedience to God (the apex of the inverted cone). It becomes "patriarchal" when the man doesn't fulfill his duties by giving himself up for her. If he decides to lord his role over the wife, he's in sin. Period.

 

I know people where this is played out as Scripture states and it's a beautiful thing. True biblical submission isn't oppressive, dominating, insulting or punitive. It's a model of Christ's relationship with the church.

 

Having said all that, if the wife is obeying God by submitting and the husband is still being a cad, it doesn't mean the wife is justified in being a jerk back. We're responsible for our own actions, regardless of how the other person is treating us. (I'm not talking about real abuse here; I'm talking about regular, day to day stuff.)

 

I also agree with the idea that someone has to make the first move to make things better. If we're talking about Christians here, and if there are marital issues, then someone is wrong about something and there needs to be humility, repentance and forgiveness. As Dr. Phil has said, someone has got to be the hero and jump in to save the marriage. All marital issues are heart issues. If you peel away all the surface stuff and get to the core of it, it's always the heart.

[MommyRyan]

This reminds me very much of some marital advice we received from our pastor: that, while both require many things in a relationship, ultimately a man's greatest need is to feel respected and the woman's is to feel loved. We have found that, the more I respect my husband, the more he makes me feel cherished, and the more he cherishes me, the more respect I find for him. I find the more I respect my husband, the better a husband he becomes. Not sure if this makes sense.

 

The respect I try to give my husband might resemble what some see as submission, but ultimately we view marriage as a partnership, and because of that, most big decisions fall equally on both of us. Sometimes, I let him think he has the power;). What's that saying? The man is the head of the family, the woman is the neck....

[HRAAB]

In a word, No.

 

How about mutual submission helping both MAN and WOMAN to become better spouses????

[coffeefreak]

From Webster:

 

Main Entry: sub·mis·sion

Pronunciation: \səb-ˈmi-shən\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin submission-, submissio act of lowering, from submittere

Date: 14th century

 

1 a : a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators b : an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection); also : something submitted (as a manuscript)

2 : the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant

3 : an act of submitting to the authority or control of another

[Ginevra]

Yes, mine. :001_smile: My husband improved as a person and our marriage improved on the whole when the light dawned on me regarding a couple of scriptures in 1 Peter.

 

That said, it may be helpful to note that I did not hear about the "submissive movement", read the Pearls, and then try to become a submissive wife. In my own Bible study, God peeled back the blinders from my eyes and I had an epiphany over the statement "they will be won over without words...". Applying that statement as I believed God intended it for me did transform my marriage and my man...and most probably myself. It knocked me off my pedestal and made me see my confident, convincing, win-you-over-with-words, a.k.a. browbeating ways for the pride it was and the disrespect it engendered.

 

I do think it is God who must place it in the women's heart, however, not the Pearls or others like them.

[Cricket]

Some of these responses have me wondering. I know some men out there are nasty but do you believe that most men are evil and are just waiting for the chance to exercise their secret misogyny? If a woman decides to submit to her husband, does that mean he will suddenly make her scrub the kitchen floor daily with a toothbrush, rub his feet nightly, stop having and voicing opinions, and allow daily beatings? I like to think that most women have married someone their share similar goals and ideals with.

[Denisemomof4]

Well, I've become a much better person due to my husband's example of sacrificial love.

 

He has proven with every word and action that he will give up his own desires to make me and the children happy.

 

How could I not respond with love and devotion? I'm not sure where submission fits in.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

boy can I relate to this.

 

Sacrificial love doesn't even begin to describe my dh. Because he's such a wonderful man and would do absolutely ANYTHING for the happiness and well being of his family, I absolutely do my best to serve him. I never do anything he'd be against, and he'd never do anything I'd be against. We submit to each other, we serve each other, and most of the time we put each other's best interest ahead of our own. THAT is a good springboard for submission, NOT the woman blindly submitting to everything and the husband putting his foot down and throwing around his authority. So many people just don't "get" submission.

 

In the end, if we don't come to agreement about something (which I can honestly say has NEVER happened) then it's my biblical responsibility to leave it up to him.

[coffeefreak]

This reminds me very much of some marital advice we received from our pastor: that, while both require many things in a relationship, ultimately a man's greatest need is to feel respected and the woman's is to feel loved. We have found that, the more I respect my husband, the more he makes me feel cherished, and the more he cherishes me, the more respect I find for him. I find the more I respect my husband, the better a husband he becomes. Not sure if this makes sense.

 

The respect I try to give my husband might resemble what some see as submission, but ultimately we view marriage as a partnership, and because of that, most big decisions fall equally on both of us. Sometimes, I let him think he has the power;). What's that saying? The man is the head of the family, the woman is the neck....

 

:hurray:

 

I Think that's an excellent point. I see respect and submission as two different actions. If I submit, but only out of obedience and not out of respect, it serves no purpose and it's like I'm lying. Only bad feelings are going to come out of that. If my husband and I both respect each other and neither "submits" or recognizes that one person has absolute authority in marriage, but compromise is reached out of respect and love, we are working together and our marriage is better.

 

sorry for the run on :)

[Guest Katia]

No, I haven't.

 

I voted "evil myth".

 

I believe the dogma of wife only submissioin is dangerous, icky, patriarchial and creepy.

 

I do, however, believe in mutual "submission" as I understand scripture to dictate as the Biblical design for marriage. No hierarchy between me and God but I stand with my husband as a unit.

 

:iagree: Perfectly stated and exactly my thoughts on the subject as well.

[Lovedtodeath]

Some of these responses have me wondering. I know some men out there are nasty but do you believe that most men are evil and are just waiting for the chance to exercise their secret misogyny? If a woman decides to submit to her husband, does that mean he will suddenly make her scrub the kitchen floor daily with a toothbrush, rub his feet nightly, stop having and voicing opinions, and allow daily beatings?

Many men have a domineering personality. Some like to feel better by pointing out others faults. Some like to remind their wives who is stronger. Most people in general will selfishly take more and more if they are offered without thought to the other person.

 

I like to think that most women have married someone their share similar goals and ideals with.

I find that personally insulting, considering how bad my marriage was for a time. Of course my chosen DH seemed to be charming with similar goals and ideals.

[Tea Time]

In a word, No.

 

How about mutual submission helping both MAN and WOMAN to become better spouses????

 

Well, yeah, of course! But it has to start somewhere - someone has to be willing to actually do the submitting. This poll asks if it works when a woman does it - and I have seen it with my own eyes - it works (with the end goal being mutual submission and a successful marriage). However, I would be just as interested to see what happens the other way around. I guess that would look a lot like the movie Fireproof. That would be an example of where the man took the initiative to "submit" to his wife. The point is really that we make a conscious effort to be a good partner and companion, meeting the needs of our loved one to the best of our abilities (that is my definition of "submission," and it includes different things for different people). Common sense. But, yeah, so it exercise and eating right! ;)

[lionfamily1999]

Yep. My dh is more successful in his career, more happy, and a better father because of my submission. In return, I am happier.

 

I also saw it very clearly with some friends of ours (and I've seen the opposite, as well.)

I have found the same thing with my dh.

Some of these responses have me wondering. I know some men out there are nasty but do you believe that most men are evil and are just waiting for the chance to exercise their secret misogyny? If a woman decides to submit to her husband, does that mean he will suddenly make her scrub the kitchen floor daily with a toothbrush, rub his feet nightly, stop having and voicing opinions, and allow daily beatings? I like to think that most women have married someone their share similar goals and ideals with.

I think the first few years of a marraige are spent really getting to know each other. Dh and I believed we were similar with the same goals and interests. Then, we had a year where everything seemed to split at the seems. We both liked the same kinds of music, but different styles. We had the same goals, but different ideas of how to reach them and our hopes fleshed out differently (I'm not sure how to make that clear :confused: we vaguely wanted the same things, but not specifically, iykwIm).

 

I do have to wonder sometimes at the idea that men are so ... well ... it seems like when they're brought up in regard to women (all those m------ threads, now this) the idea is, they're okay for now, but WATCH OUT, they could blow at any minute! :lol: I give dh more credit than that.

[Rosie_0801]

Well, I've become a much better person due to my husband's example of sacrificial love.

How could I not respond with love and devotion? I'm not sure where submission fits in.

 

Mmm. I've noticed how there is a direct correlation between dh moving into doofus mode, and me moving into harpy mode. Funnily enough, there is also a direct correlation between him leaving doofus mode and me leaving harpy mode. A deliberate move from harpy mode has no effect on doofus mode, though. Unfortunately.

 

Rosie

[Tea Time]

I find that personally insulting, considering how bad my marriage was for a time. Of course my chosen DH seemed to be charming with similar goals and ideals.

 

I am very sure you are not at all the only one who had this problem! Sorry this happened to you.

[phathui5]

While I don't agree that submission will necessarily make a man a better husband, I think that respect can go a LONG way.

[Pink Fairy]

The wives I've known who focus on wifely submission went about it in a very unhealthy way. As an example, one friend allowed her dh to screw up their checking account because he was in charge of the finances. He regularly bounced checks, but she told me it wasn't her place to correct him, or to take over the finances herself.

 

If it was an isolated incident with just one friend I might see it differently, but this way of relating has been a pattern with every single woman I've known who talks to me about wifely submission, how wonderful and godly it is, how safe it makes her feel, etc.

[WishboneDawn]

I think that although one-sided action can sometimes help a marriage along a bit ultimately what makes a man a better man is his own decision to become a better man.

 

I find that whole idea troubling, especially from a Christian perspective, when it's only about the wife. Not simply because of the implication for wives but because it seems to make men into simply reactive creatures (they need their wives to submit in order to become the men they need to be? Really?) and denies them the role of servant to the person who is their partner in life.

 

I think there's important stuff in the idea of submission but not when it's restricted to some and denied others.

[Impish]

Maybe it is just in the definition of submission.

 

I don't see it as an action to perform. I don't see it as my checking my brain at the door and being the "yes" woman to my husband's every whim.

 

I've always seen the wife's submission and the husband's loving his wife as the church as just two "issues" within marriage.

 

Women "tend" to get the loving part with no problem but the treating their husband as someone worthy of respect rather than one of the kids can be harder. So to mention the fact that the husband is someone with authority is a worthwhile thing to remind a women of on occasion. I don't think it has to be some over the top legalistic weird abusive thing.

 

Men "tend" to get the authority part with no problem but struggle in the demonstration of sacrificial love, so Paul mentioned it to men. Hey, work on this whole loving your wife as Christ loved the church thing.

 

When each of us (husband & wife) works on our own weaknesses we move towards the middle ground and our marriages improve. In a perfect marriage both partners would love each other as Christ loved the church and both partners would respect each other's God-given authority. That's my opinion.

:iagree:

I think the ideas of this type are similar to the idea that if we Christians homeschool we will be guaranteed to have Godly children who don't mess up like the public schooled kids. Well, I've seen too many examples of *that* notion proven false.

 

The monkey wrench in the whole thing is that you are dealing with another individual who has a free will. You are responsible for your conduct, the other party is responsible to God for his. Your actions may or may not change his. If we are behaving as God calls us to behave, we are assured that God will be pleased. We are not assured that the other party will change. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. You cannot change another person's heart - that's the job of the Holy Spirit and it also requires a receptive heart for that to occur.

 

Our job is to build an environment that would allow for conviction on the part of the dh's heart. When we do as we are called to do, we create that environment. How dh deals with that conviction is between him and God.

:iagree:

My marriage was in bad trouble this summer. I posted about it here. I was called and had it placed upon my heart to become submissive to my husband. God showed me that at the heart of our issues was the unspoken power struggle between us. I had been a single mom before my marriage, and continued trying to run everything. My husband felt unneeded, disrespected. By telling him that I wanted to be submissive to him, by telling him that it was something I was striving for...it made a HUGE difference in our marriage. Just this weekend I was telling SpecialMama how he's been more loving and attentive.

 

Today, my dh was laid off, a week earlier than expected. I assured him that I loved him unconditionally, that I trusted him to find another job, that God had a plan for us, and I knew that he would follow that plan. The easing in my husband was visual, I literally watched the stress and anxiety seep away.

 

My husband knows I'm bright. He's bragged to his friends and mother about my IQ score. He doesn't want me to be a door mat, and relies on my strengths in certain areas to be and do whats best for our family. My leading in certain areas is still being submissive to him, because he NEEDS me to do this. Dumping it in his lap would be to go against him.

 

I've watched my dh change since my striving to be submissive. I know that it can happen, and happen for the better, not worse.

 

Obviously, I voted 'yes'.

[Aussenfay]

Yes--my husband and my pastor :)

 

Biblical submission has been perverted. Biblical submission has nothing to do with being a doormat. It has everything to do with a husband and wife fulfilling their Biblical roles. Wives are to submit to their husbands' leadership and authority. Husbands are supposed to lay down their lives in service to their wives and family. This often involves submitting his will to his wife's for the good of the family, but never abdicating his role as head of the family. I understand that some people don't like the idea, but the Bible does say that the way to win a lost husband is by your chaste conversation (behavior), not by nagging or hitting him over the head with Scripture. God WILL honor your submission and obedience (if not on earth then certainly in Glory).

 

By the way, I have also seen this work in reverse. Husband got saved and loved his alcoholic, druggy, adulterous wife "as Christ loved the Church". She is saved and they are raising Godly children and serving the Lord together.

[freetobeme]

I think that although one-sided action can sometimes help a marriage along a bit ultimately what makes a man a better man is his own decision to become a better man.

 

I find that whole idea troubling, especially from a Christian perspective, when it's only about the wife. Not simply because of the implication for wives but because it seems to make men into simply reactive creatures (they need their wives to submit in order to become the men they need to be? Really?) and denies them the role of servant to the person who is their partner in life.

 

I think there's important stuff in the idea of submission but not when it's restricted to some and denied others.

 

ITA and am currently living out the consequences of believing "if you just respect MORE, things will get better."

 

you said it better than i could have and probably more respectfully, too! ;)

[MommyRyan]

I've been struggling for awhile on what I mean to say, and I think it comes down to this:

 

I have found throughout my life that most men tend to be naturally insecure (if that's a good word) about their authority and about being respected. This is exacerbated in a relationship, especially I'm sure when the woman is intelligent, independent, and has such a large influence on how her family is run (as is the case with home schooling).

I find the word "submission" from the Bible to be a poor interpretation of what *I* believe was meant to be a form of sincerest respect. And in my opinion, the more respect (*submission*) the husband receives from his wife, the better the relationship will be. But people are different. For some men, this could mean the wife fully submitting to him and granting him full authority over the family. To others, it could merely require the wife to start respecting his feelings more often, being more sensitive to his needs, or respecting his ideas and opinions. Of course, this also depends on the wife: some of us are happy to submit fully to our husbands, some are mortified at the idea. Both are okay.

Any form of submission to a loving husband will help a relationship. I believe God wants us to do what is best for our family; naturally that means doing what is best for our relationship. If a woman feels suffocated or loses her identity in that submission, she shouldn't do it.

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpeach

I firmly believe it only takes one person to change a marriage.

 

 

I am glad things worked out for you, but this is sometimes not the case and can come across as rather insulting to those who tried everything for many years and didn't succeed in getting a good response from their spouse.

 

IMO, it takes 2 people to make a marriage work. However, contrary to a commonly used phrase, it only takes *one* to ruin it. I'm not suggesting that the other person is perfect but that one person can singlehanded be the reason the marriage doesn't work long term.

 

One person changing can be the impetus for lasting change for the positive, but only if the other spouse is in a fixable, willing "open" state.

 

Biblical submission has been perverted. Biblical submission has nothing to do with being a doormat. It has everything to do with a husband and wife fulfilling their Biblical roles. Wives are to submit to their husbands' leadership and authority. Husbands are supposed to lay down their lives in service to their wives and family. This often involves submitting his will to his wife's for the good of the family, but never abdicating his role as head of the family. I understand that some people don't like the idea, but the Bible does say that the way to win a lost husband is by your chaste conversation (behavior), not by nagging or hitting him over the head with Scripture. God WILL honor your submission and obedience (if not on earth then certainly in Glory).

 

Wifely or wife only submission is one of those topics where some supporters believe that if other Christians truly understand the term/arrangement, they'd agree. We then end up with posts about how wife only submission is not equal to doormat.

 

I.know.that. I still don't believe it's the Biblical supported arrangement or God's design for marriage. I still feel it's misinterpreted, mis-applied and that it has grown a culture and cult-like following that is icky, creepy and concerning. While I acknowledge that not every wife only submission is not abusive or controlling, in a wife only submission marriage, abuse takes on more power. And men prone to power, control and abuse are going to be attracted to situations where weidling that power and control is culturally sanctioned. There is simply more abuse of power and abuse in general in a setting where power is granted to the person likely to abuse.

 

I've never understood the "someone has to make the final decision" thinking or the "he is the Leader of the family" thinking. Yes, in the course of a marriage there might be a couple of situations in which the adults can't decide. I believe the decision then is made based on the specific situation and each person (the viewpoint that was decided on and the viewpoint that was not) has work and responsibility to move on healthfully. That includes no "I told you so's", no "see, I was right" and no passive/aggressive expressed anger or "holding onto" the situation.

 

I've also observed a manipulative element to some "wife only" submission advocates; that he'll behave if I submit. Or wishful, magical thinking. "If I submit, he'll change dramatically in the ways needed".

 

My husband is no more equipped to be the Leader of this family by virtue of his penis than I am by virtue of my vagina. We are the co-Leaders, submitting to Christ and each other in love, service and care.

[Impish]

IMO, it takes 2 people to make a marriage work. However, contrary to a commonly used phrase, it only takes *one* to ruin it. I'm not suggesting that the other person is perfect but that one person can singlehanded be the reason the marriage doesn't work long term.

 

One person changing can be the impetus for lasting change for the positive, but only if the other spouse is in a fixable, willing "open" state.

 

 

 

Wifely or wife only submission is one of those topics where some supporters believe that if other Christians truly understand the term/arrangement, they'd agree. We then end up with posts about how wife only submission is not equal to doormat.

 

I.know.that. I still don't believe it's the Biblical supported arrangement or God's design for marriage. I still feel it's misinterpreted, mis-applied and that it has grown a culture and cult-like following that is icky, creepy and concerning. While I acknowledge that not every wife only submission is not abusive or controlling, in a wife only submission marriage, abuse takes on more power. And men prone to power, control and abuse are going to be attracted to situations where weidling that power and control is culturally sanctioned. There is simply more abuse of power and abuse in general in a setting where power is granted to the person likely to abuse.

 

I've never understood the "someone has to make the final decision" thinking or the "he is the Leader of the family" thinking. Yes, in the course of a marriage there might be a couple of situations in which the adults can't decide. I believe the decision then is made based on the specific situation and each person (the viewpoint that was decided on and the viewpoint that was not) has work and responsibility to move on healthfully. That includes no "I told you so's", no "see, I was right" and no passive/aggressive expressed anger or "holding onto" the situation.

 

I've also observed a manipulative element to some "wife only" submission advocates; that he'll behave if I submit. Or wishful, magical thinking. "If I submit, he'll change dramatically in the ways needed".

 

My husband is no more equipped to be the Leader of this family by virtue of his penis than I am by virtue of my vagina. We are the co-Leaders, submitting to Christ and each other in love, service and care.

Bingo. That's exactly what the Bible says is to happen. However, for someone that wasn't raised Christian (me) and someone that was raised in a cult (SDA was labeled a cult until fairly recently) and both of us having unhealthy family of origin dynamics, it had to start with one of us, as neither of us had lived it before.

 

Blanket generalizations are equally offensive and wrong, no matter which side is making it. My marriage is so far from being 'creepy' 'cult like' 'icky' or 'concerning' that its almost laughable. Its the healthiest its ever been.

 

Do some abuse the idea? Absolutely, just as one can point to ANYTHING being taken to extreme and abuse. Just because there are some that abuse doesn't mean that the entire situation is bad...Just because some are alcoholics, there has been no attempt to ban alcohol since the Prohibition. Some drive irresponsibly, but we still have cars on the road. Ponzi schemes haven't meant a ban on investments.

 

There will always be someone that abuses a situation. Doesn't make the situation wrong, but the individual that chooses to abuse it.

[*Inna*]

 

I have seen wives become Christians and in addition to other changes set a perfect example of submission and all of that has improved the husband.

:iagree:

[OnTheBrink]

Ephesians 5:22-33

 

22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

 

23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

 

24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

 

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

 

26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

 

27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

 

28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

 

29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

 

30because we are members of His body.

 

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

 

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

 

33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

[LinRTX]

I actually think this is what is meant by submission.

 

We have been married 26 years now and I always let him make the final decision if we are not in complete agreement, but we always talk about it thoroughly first.

 

And believe me I am NO doormat. My husband and I are both first born children and are both strongly driven competitive personalities. But he is the head of our home and the final decision rests with him. That said about 99% of the time when we talk it through his decision is a compromise from where we started.

 

Linda

[Sweetpeach]

One person changing can be the impetus for lasting change for the positive, but only if the other spouse is in a fixable, willing "open" state.

 

Thank you for making this point again, Joanne. Earlier in the thread, I agreed with another poster about one person being enough to get the ball rolling, start the change in the atmosphere of a marriage. A woman can respect her husband if she believes him to be a good-willed man. Obviously, abuse, addiction, affairs change the nature of the game.

 

Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones; after 11 years of marriage, my husband's heart has softened to the point that we are getting to the bottom of the crazy . . . but it's not been a walk in the park.

 

T

[Trixie]

It's not enough to say that you ascribe a different definition to the word.

 

Hey, it worked for Humpty Dumpty. ;)