Do you personally know of a man who became a better husband as a result of his wife's

[coffeefreak]

Do you personally know of a man who became a better husband as a result of his wife's submission?

 

They had this poll at Vyckie Garrison's website and I thought it was an interesting question. We went to a fundamentalist Baptist Church, exactly like she did. Our Pastor is personal friends with SM Davis (a pastor she references often), and VERY long story short, we were asked to leave in 2007 because we were "corrupting the church." The whole experience destroyed our marriage and it's only been recently that we're starting to put the pieces back together. Mainly because we finally found a church home in August (2 years later).

 

So, feel free to answer and give examples. I really am curious if this ever really works or if everyone has the same experiences as Vyckie and others from her website.

 

Blessings!

 

Dorinda

Edited November 16, 2009 by coffeefreak

[Daisy]

Do you personally know of a man who became a better husband as a result of his wife's

 

Confused by the question. By his wife's ????

[Denise in Florida]

Because of his wife's (what)? I am not familiar with the website you mention. Your question caught my eye and I would love to see the conversation, but I'm lost.

[LibraryLover]

Nagging? No. :D I am hoping you don't mean nagging. lol

 

Of course, I have never understood why you would marry a certain person and then want to change them.

[coffeefreak]

OOPS! Submission!

 

I didn't realize it cut it off. How do I fix that?

[LND1218]

Nothing like leaving us hanging! thanks!!

[coffeefreak]

Nagging? No. :D I am hoping you don't mean nagging. lol

 

Of course, I have never understood why you would marry a certain person and then want to change them.

 

That would be another good poll!!!!:lol:

 

I kind of fixed it. Hopefully that will clear things up. Here's the website with the original poll:

 

nolongerquivering.com

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[Lovedtodeath]

Submission? Hmmmm....

 

I have seen husbands become better when the wife stopped being so submissive that she was a doormat and both mates learned what submission in marriage really means.

 

I have seen husbands improved because of their wife's good Christian example overall. But submission, by itself, NO.

 

I have seen wives become Christians and in addition to other changes set a perfect example of submission and all of that has improved the husband.

 

More often than that though I see an imperfect idea of submission being played out that contributes to an abusive relationship and/or a man's loss of love and respect for the wife.

 

If I had to vote I would say that "No, this is an evil myth" is the one closest to how I have seen things played out. I voted "other".

Edited November 16, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Daisy]

I voted yes. I think my laid-back easy-going hubby thrives when I "submit" to his judgment. It builds his confidence and lets me know I respect and trust his judgment.

 

However, we very much have an equal marriage so I may not be defining submission as some would define it. Basically, I show my husband that I trust him when I say, "Okay, after we've agonized and hashed over this issue and still not come to a clear sense of direction, I'm going to step back and let you decide how we proceed." He sees this in a few positive ways, even thought it typically scares him to death.

 

1) My willingness to stick with him like glue through thick or thin, through good or bad decisions.

 

2) My respect for his ability to make a decision.

 

3) His ability to provide and protect his wife from having to "live with" a bad decision. In other words he is willing to be the fall guy. He is actually MORE careful with the decision when he has the final say.

 

But what can I say, I'm married to he greatest guy in the world who wouldn't pick Chinese over Italian if he thought it would ruin my day.

 

When we were first married I constantly fought his decisions and I eroded his self-confidence. Submission has been wonderful in our house.

[Paintedlady]

Yes, mine.

[Renee in NC]

My marriage was almost ruined by trying to apply Created to be His Helpmeet by Debi Pearl as well as the advice of certain women on a couple of message boards I used to belong to.

 

The more I tried to "submit" the way it was portrayed in that book and how it is often practically applied, the more my dh changed - into a mean, nasty, lazy jerk. He doesn't want me to submit in that way and he is GLAD I quit trying to do so.

 

He married an independent woman with a brain of her own. Yes, I submit in the sense that if he is against something I won't do it, but my job is not to serve him, revolve my life around him, or forget how to do anything on my own so that he can "lead" me.

 

Just a small thing, but I was told by one woman to stop acting intelligent in order to raise my dh up.

[Jugglin'5]

I voted yes. I think my laid-back easy-going hubby thrives when I "submit" to his judgment. It builds his confidence and lets me know I respect and trust his judgment.

 

However, we very much have an equal marriage so I may not be defining submission as some would define it. Basically, I show my husband that I trust him when I say, "Okay, after we've agonized and hashed over this issue and still not come to a clear sense of direction, I'm going to step back and let you decide how we proceed." He sees this in a few positive ways, even thought it typically scares him to death.

 

1) My willingness to stick with him like glue through thick or thin, through good or bad decisions.

 

2) My respect for his ability to make a decision.

 

3) His ability to provide and protect his wife from having to "live with" a bad decision. In other words he is willing to be the fall guy. He is actually MORE careful with the decision when he has the final say.

 

But what can I say, I'm married to he greatest guy in the world who wouldn't pick Chinese over Italian if he thought it would ruin my day.

 

When we were first married I constantly fought his decisions and I eroded his self-confidence. Submission has been wonderful in our house.

:iagree:

 

I am not talking about a wife becoming a cringing doormat. I am talking about a wife choosing to build her husband up by respecting him rather than tear him down by constantly doubting, questioning, second-guessing, and nagging. When I show my dh respect and try to follow his lead, the dance goes much more smoothly, and is more fun for BOTH of us.

[Lovedtodeath]

Daisy has a very good point. I think that it really depends on the personality of the marriage mates.

 

Some have a tendency to have a marriage in which the wife treats the husband like a child and in that case applying submission can do a world of good.

 

In cases where the wife already tends to not speak up for herself it can make a marriage worse to apply submission the way most people understand it.

[amy g.]

Well, I've become a much better person due to my husband's example of sacrificial love.

 

He has proven with every word and action that he will give up his own desires to make me and the children happy.

 

How could I not respond with love and devotion? I'm not sure where submission fits in.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Well, I've become a much better person due to my husband's example of sacrificial love.

:iagree:We both had to learn how a marriage works, not just the wife. Applying Christian principles has saved and drastically changed my marriage. My DH and I changed together and we have helped each other with the changes.

[Jugglin'5]

 

He married an independent woman with a brain of her own. Yes, I submit in the sense that if he is against something I won't do it, but my job is not to serve him, revolve my life around him, or forget how to do anything on my own so that he can "lead" me.

 

Just a small thing, but I was told by one woman to stop acting intelligent in order to raise my dh up.

 

Yeah, that is definitely a problem if that is the advice that is being given out. :001_huh: My dh married an intelligent woman and wants me to stay that way, thank you very much. I just try (imperfectly, of course) to use my intelligence in a constructive rather than destructive way. When we first got married, I would say things to him that he would never have dreamed of saying to me, even though, he is perhaps quicker at that kind of repartee than I am. The female can be deadlier than the male with her tongue, speaking in generalities here, and I had to learn to be more careful with mine. This is common decency in some ways, and I don't see what the big deal is. I guess some people mean something different by respect and submission than others.

[Lovedtodeath]

The female can be deadlier than the male with her tongue' date=' [/quote']In my marriage it is quite the opposite, I assure you.

[Crimson Wife]

I've seen marriages that dramatically improved when the couple stopped engaging in a power struggle and started working as a team under the husband's leadership. But BOTH spouses had to stop being selfish and start looking out for the wellbeing of the family. If it's just a one-sided submission on the part of the wife with no corresponding change on the part of the husband, then things if anything get worse.

[Daisy]

He married an independent woman with a brain of her own. Yes, I submit in the sense that if he is against something I won't do it, but my job is not to serve him, revolve my life around him, or forget how to do anything on my own so that he can "lead" me.

 

Just a small thing, but I was told by one woman to stop acting intelligent in order to raise my dh up.

 

This is crazy! I've never heard this but then again, I don't read marriage books. Blech.

 

The husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. You don't hear about that a lot. My pastor likes to say that means the guy should totally sacrifice HIMSELF for his wife. Nail his hide up to the cross for his wife.

 

Hmm, I like that. Make submitting really easy. ;-)

[LibraryLover]

Oh, hail. I'm out.

[coffeefreak]

:iagree:We both had to learn how a marriage works, not just the wife. Applying Christian principles has saved and drastically changed my marriage. My DH and I changed together and we have helped each other with the changes.

 

:iagree:

I also agree with Renee. I threw my copy of that book out in August of last year, when we moved. We never knew something was "wrong" with our marriage until other people started telling us. That book was given to me to help me understand why my marriage wouldn't make it to 10 years if I didn't change. I changed and that's when things started tanking. My husband liked me the way I was (equal), and he became confused and angry as to why I wasn't happy with the way things were. Then, I gave him the book I was reading and he thought he had to turn into Michael Pearl. Couple that with the fundamentalist church we were going to telling him he was in sin for letting his wife make decisions (ANY decision) and we almost didn't make it to 10 years!

 

All this to say, this is not what what I believe the Bible says about submissiveness. But, I truly am interested as to why it "works" for some and not for others.

 

Thanks!

Dorinda

[Firefly]

I don't know why I torture myself by peeking into these threads, they always depress me. :(

 

Of course if one person submits in a marriage (and apparently it must always be the woman), the marriage will improve!

 

sigh... I'm right behind ya, Laurie!

[asta]

Nope.

 

But I know of a guy who became an even bigger jerk.

 

Does that count?

 

 

a

[Daisy]

Maybe it is just in the definition of submission.

 

I don't see it as an action to perform. I don't see it as my checking my brain at the door and being the "yes" woman to my husband's every whim.

 

I've always seen the wife's submission and the husband's loving his wife as the church as just two "issues" within marriage.

 

Women "tend" to get the loving part with no problem but the treating their husband as someone worthy of respect rather than one of the kids can be harder. So to mention the fact that the husband is someone with authority is a worthwhile thing to remind a women of on occasion. I don't think it has to be some over the top legalistic weird abusive thing.

 

Men "tend" to get the authority part with no problem but struggle in the demonstration of sacrificial love, so Paul mentioned it to men. Hey, work on this whole loving your wife as Christ loved the church thing.

 

When each of us (husband & wife) works on our own weaknesses we move towards the middle ground and our marriages improve. In a perfect marriage both partners would love each other as Christ loved the church and both partners would respect each other's God-given authority. That's my opinion.

[justamouse]

These threads make my head go all splodey. Especially since that word-submit-is not even IN the bible in the Greek (In that verse wives submit to your husbands).

 

But have at it. :auto:

[coffeefreak]

These threads make my head go all splodey. Especially since that word-submit-is not even IN the bible in the Greek (In that verse wives submit to your husbands).

 

But have at it. :auto:

 

No No! Don't let your head splode! We never meant to cause a chain reaction of brains!:D

[justamouse]

No No! Don't let your head splode! We never meant to cause a chain reaction of brains!:D

 

 

Lol!!!

[Melinda in VT]

How are we defining submission?

 

I tend to think of it as "when push comes to shove (and maybe sooner) the husband gets the final say because he's the man."

 

It seems like some of you are talking about "treating your husband the way you would treat any other adult friend or co-worker, with respect."

 

The first I disagree with and think can be harmful. The second seems like a no-brainer (although surprisingly hard sometimes to put into practice).

[Trixie]

sigh... I'm right behind ya, Laurie!

 

No, no, no! Don't be submissively behind Laurie! Be beside her. ;)

 

And make room for me, too.

[bunnytracks]

 

The husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. You don't hear about that a lot. My pastor likes to say that means the guy should totally sacrifice HIMSELF for his wife. Nail his hide up to the cross for his wife.

 

Hmm, I like that. Make submitting really easy. ;-)

 

LOVE that part!!! It is amazing how that part is always left out!! The two go together.

 

And who ever said submission was being a doormat??? That isn't submission.

[Sweetpeach]

Remember that I'm not uber-conservative and dh and I live "equally" together.

 

From where I stand, "submission" is really about respect.

 

I respect my husband. Not my natural default.

 

Dh loves me. Not his natural default.

 

I started with respect three years ago, after reading Love & Respect and The Surrendered Wife. Respect is POWERFUL.

 

After three years of connecting with my husband in a language he could understand [respect], we're finally getting to the root of so many of the deeply buried issues that were haunting our marriage.

 

Hope grows out of respect. I firmly believe it only takes one person to change a marriage.

 

Warmly, Tricia

[sheryl]

Do you personally know of a man who became a better husband as a result of his wife's submission?

 

They had this poll at Vyckie Garrison's website and I thought it was an interesting question. We went to a fundamentalist Baptist Church, exactly like she did. Our Pastor is personal friends with SM Davis (a pastor she references often), and VERY long story short, we were asked to leave in 2007 because we were "corrupting the church." The whole experience destroyed our marriage and it's only been recently that we're starting to put the pieces back together. Mainly because we finally found a church home in August (2 years later).

 

So, feel free to answer and give examples. I really am curious if this ever really works or if everyone has the same experiences as Vyckie and others from her website.

 

Blessings!

 

Dorinda

 

 

Excellent poll. This is how God works. As a believer God is calling me to raise the bar with my submission issue. I would submit when it was to my advantage, but that's not true submission.

 

For the last few weeks/months, God has been revealing what submission is. What a blessing!

 

Sheryl <><

[lulubelle]

This is a way too general way to throw out the word "submission" that has so many interpretations. Yes, a man can and will be a better man if a woman can submit to her own will. And, vice versa for the submission of the man to the woman. A woman must submit to her desire to over-control and a man must submit to his desire to retreat from relationship. It is crucial for a relationship to prosper without some of this going on.

[Sputterduck]

I firmly believe it only takes one person to change a marriage.

 

 

I am glad things worked out for you, but this is sometimes not the case and can come across as rather insulting to those who tried everything for many years and didn't succeed in getting a good response from their spouse.

[i.love.lucy]

I have not, and will not, read the Pearls books. But we did attend a conference called "Love and Respect" and it's been helpful to us. For our relationship it's not so much about submission as it is him *loving* me and me *respecting* him. I didn't have huge lessons to learn other than before I open my mouth with advice or correction or whatever, I try to think "say it respectfully". And he thinks "say it lovingly". So we try to act lovingly and respectfully towards eachother. So the submission thing doesn't come up.

 

My pastor did a fantastic sermon a couple of weeks ago about the Contentious Wife. :001_huh: Um...yeah. FAR, FAR more verses and examples about the evils of a contentious woman than there ever are about being some kind of submissive doormat. How the man will go hide on the corner of his roof rather than be with a contentious woman. Not being a Contentious Woman doesn't mean you can't be a strong, smart, supporter and helpmeet.

[Home'scool]

Nope.

 

But I know of a guy who became an even bigger jerk.

 

Best line I heard all day!:lol: Thanks for the chuckle.

[Sputterduck]

I have not, and will not, read the Pearls books.

 

Yeah. Don't. In their famous child raising book they talk about switching their four month old.

[Sweetpeach]

I am glad things worked out for you, but this is sometimes not the case and can come across as rather insulting to those who tried everything for many years and didn't succeed in getting a good response from their spouse.

 

Hi Sputterduck, these off the cuff remarks of mine . . . grrrrr.

 

I'm simply saying that for me, I held on to the idea that I would "respect" my husband in response to his "loving" me, and not before.

 

I had to grapple with the idea that respect was something I could do, even if I didn't feel well-loved or he wasn't acting in a manner deserving of respect.

 

Certainly, I've no pie-in-the-sky idea that it always works out all the time for all people. We've been at this crazy for 11 years and I'm thankful that things are starting to fall off us that have immobilized us for many years.

 

I'm sorry that your situation turned out differently.

Warmly, T

[OnTheBrink]

My experience with SM Davis has always been indirect, but it's never been positive. I've personally known two families who suffered emotionally and spiritually from his teachings, so, in my humble opinion, I'd pretty much reject what he has to say across the board, or at the very least, really really examine his teachings in light of Scripture's proper context.

 

Two excellent books on marriage are Love and Respect, by Eggerich; and What Did You Expect, by Paul Tripp. I'd read the Tripp book first, then the Eggerich book, because to me, they seem to flow in that order better.

[Joanne]

No, I haven't.

 

I voted "evil myth".

 

I believe the dogma of wife only submissioin is dangerous, icky, patriarchial and creepy.

 

I do, however, believe in mutual "submission" as I understand scripture to dictate as the Biblical design for marriage. No hierarchy between me and God but I stand with my husband as a unit.

[Sputterduck]

Hi Sputterduck, these off the cuff remarks of mine . . . grrrrr.

 

I'm simply saying that for me, I held on to the idea that I would "respect" my husband in response to his "loving" me, and not before.

 

I had to grapple with the idea that respect was something I could do, even if I didn't feel well-loved or he wasn't acting in a manner deserving of respect.

 

Certainly, I've no pie-in-the-sky idea that it always works out all the time for all people. We've been at this crazy for 11 years and I'm thankful that things are starting to fall off us that have immobilized us for many years.

 

I'm sorry that your situation turned out differently.

Warmly, T

 

I'm glad things are working out in your marriage. :)

 

In mine, I just had to come to terms with the fact that God won't mess with someone's free will. If my husband wants to be evil, he will be evil, and all my begging God and doing anything and everything to be the best wife ever won't change him if he doesn't want to change. It was a hard lesson, learning that me trying until I have nothing left to give and I am worked to the bone won't fix things. I think when a husband isn't truly evil, he often will respond to God pulling at his heart and to his wife loving him. Unfortunately, despite how much God loves his children, many will chose the path of evil.

[smrtmama]

No, I haven't.

 

I voted "evil myth".

 

I believe the dogma of wife only submissioin is dangerous, icky, patriarchial and creepy.

 

 

:iagree: Wife only submission is slavery, plain and simple.

[Plucky]

I voted no. A marriage won't improve until there is mutual submission by both.

Edited November 16, 2009 by True Blue
typos

[Lovedtodeath]

Of course if one person submits in a marriage (and apparently it must always be the woman), the marriage will improve!

 

I completely disagree with the above statement as do most of the members who responded to this thread. I don't think you read it, but just responded as soon as you saw the word submission.

[Miss Marple]

I'd have to have a definition of "submission" in order to vote (I voted other). But if the definition is as I fear it is meant (acting as a child rather than a helpmate) then I would vote: No - it's an evil myth.

[Miss Marple]

:iagree:

[Plucky]

I'd have to have a definition of "submission" in order to vote (I voted other). But if the definition is as I fear it is meant (acting as a child rather than a helpmate) then I would vote: No - it's an evil myth.

 

No, my belief is that submission means to try to get along and please your spouse. I also believe it goes both ways.

[Lovedtodeath]

Hope grows out of respect. I firmly believe it only takes one person to change a marriage.

 

 

I am glad things worked out for you, but this is sometimes not the case and can come across as rather insulting to those who tried everything for many years and didn't succeed in getting a good response from their spouse.

 

I'm simply saying that for me, I held on to the idea that I would "respect" my husband in response to his "loving" me, and not before.

Yes, it takes one person to start the changes in the marriage.

[Miss Marple]

I agree with you that it goes both ways. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, submission means to act as a helpless child rather than the helpmate God intended. I even had a lady once say to me that she preferred to have her husband make all the decisions because then she could never be blamed for making the wrong one. One wife, in labor with her 5th child, had to call her dh at work to ask *when* she could call the midwife!

[momtoboys]

I voted "other" because there is a broad range of what is considered "submission." It's an interesting study, and too long to type here and now.