Do you personally know of a man who became a better husband as a result of his wife's

[6packofun]

Agreed! Also, I'm wondering how, as one man's wife, most of us can know other men deeply enough to make the call that they've been changed by their wives' actions. ?

 

I think this question is pretty silly, though. LOL Women either "get" submission as the Bible really intends it or not. Lots of not.

[OnTheBrink]

Women either "get" submission as the Bible really intends it or not. Lots of not.

 

:iagree:

 

I think fragments of the fem movement (I'M NOT SAYING THE ENTIRE FEMINIST MOVEMENT) has perverted the meaning and many people over the past 50ish years have bought into that.

[LisaKinVA]

I chose B.

 

My parents...

 

My mother for years, kept her mouth shut. Did as she was asked, did more than was asked, looked for ways to please my dad, and worked to not complain. She blamed herself, because of her sinful past. She was sure that if she had been a better person (read, PURE) that the problems between my dad and her would not exist. My parents have now been separated for 2 years, with very little chance of reconciling.

 

That said, I believe there is one overarching reason why this never worked. My parents NEVER learned how to talk to one another. To this day, my dad admits he has no idea what my mom is trying to "say" to him.

 

My dad also admits that he "doesn't know what's with my mom." Because in the past, after they had a fight "she'd just go back to normal" (meaning not say anything, do whatever he wanted... blah, blah, blah).

 

The only person who could fight for the marriage right now is my dad -- and he doesn't feel like it's his responsibility. It hasn't been these past 40 years. In his words, "he's a good person."

 

They both proclaim to be Christians. BUT not knowing how to communicate, not talking about things that bothered them, not talking about things they liked, having one spouse take on the entire responsibility for the survival of the marriage and the other ignore it... has been a mess.

 

While one spouse CAN make a difference in the short term, it will NOT translate to long-term sustainable relationship without work from the 2nd party... and doom the relationship.

[Aussenfay]

IMO, it takes 2 people to make a marriage work. However, contrary to a commonly used phrase, it only takes *one* to ruin it. I'm not suggesting that the other person is perfect but that one person can singlehanded be the reason the marriage doesn't work long term.

 

One person changing can be the impetus for lasting change for the positive, but only if the other spouse is in a fixable, willing "open" state.

 

 

 

Wifely or wife only submission is one of those topics where some supporters believe that if other Christians truly understand the term/arrangement, they'd agree. We then end up with posts about how wife only submission is not equal to doormat.

 

I.know.that. I still don't believe it's the Biblical supported arrangement or God's design for marriage. I still feel it's misinterpreted, mis-applied and that it has grown a culture and cult-like following that is icky, creepy and concerning. While I acknowledge that not every wife only submission is not abusive or controlling, in a wife only submission marriage, abuse takes on more power. And men prone to power, control and abuse are going to be attracted to situations where weidling that power and control is culturally sanctioned. There is simply more abuse of power and abuse in general in a setting where power is granted to the person likely to abuse.

 

I've never understood the "someone has to make the final decision" thinking or the "he is the Leader of the family" thinking. Yes, in the course of a marriage there might be a couple of situations in which the adults can't decide. I believe the decision then is made based on the specific situation and each person (the viewpoint that was decided on and the viewpoint that was not) has work and responsibility to move on healthfully. That includes no "I told you so's", no "see, I was right" and no passive/aggressive expressed anger or "holding onto" the situation.

 

I've also observed a manipulative element to some "wife only" submission advocates; that he'll behave if I submit. Or wishful, magical thinking. "If I submit, he'll change dramatically in the ways needed".

 

My husband is no more equipped to be the Leader of this family by virtue of his penis than I am by virtue of my vagina. We are the co-Leaders, submitting to Christ and each other in love, service and care.

 

The point is that submission is not a matter of obtaining a desired result, but it IS a matter of obedience to God. The Bible is clear on this. For someone who is unsaved, I have no problem if they want to argue this. Their arguments are based on "I think", "I feel", "In my experience", or "In my opinion"--which really means diddly to be. Worldy wisdom changes. It is a shame that people take advantage of submission or abuse their wives--it is called sin. That does not make God's Word void.

[coffeefreak]

:iagree:

 

:iagree:

My marriage was in bad trouble this summer. I posted about it here. I was called and had it placed upon my heart to become submissive to my husband. God showed me that at the heart of our issues was the unspoken power struggle between us. I had been a single mom before my marriage, and continued trying to run everything. My husband felt unneeded, disrespected. By telling him that I wanted to be submissive to him, by telling him that it was something I was striving for...it made a HUGE difference in our marriage. Just this weekend I was telling SpecialMama how he's been more loving and attentive.

 

Today, my dh was laid off, a week earlier than expected. I assured him that I loved him unconditionally, that I trusted him to find another job, that God had a plan for us, and I knew that he would follow that plan. The easing in my husband was visual, I literally watched the stress and anxiety seep away.

 

My husband knows I'm bright. He's bragged to his friends and mother about my IQ score. He doesn't want me to be a door mat, and relies on my strengths in certain areas to be and do whats best for our family. My leading in certain areas is still being submissive to him, because he NEEDS me to do this. Dumping it in his lap would be to go against him.

 

I've watched my dh change since my striving to be submissive. I know that it can happen, and happen for the better, not worse.

 

Obviously, I voted 'yes'.

 

See, I don't see this as being submissive the way the church teaches it. I see it as being loving and respectful. Because your husband knows you love him unconditionally, he has the strength to get through this trial. Likewise, he is more motivated to overlook your faults and to support you in hard times.

 

I'm glad it's going so well for you guys! That's great!

Dorinda

[*********]

The point is that submission is not a matter of obtaining a desired result, but it IS a matter of obedience to God. The Bible is clear on this. For someone who is unsaved, I have no problem if they want to argue this. Their arguments are based on "I think", "I feel", "In my experience", or "In my opinion"--which really means diddly to be. Worldy wisdom changes. It is a shame that people take advantage of submission or abuse their wives--it is called sin. That does not make God's Word void.

 

What she said.

[lionfamily1999]

See, I don't see this as being submissive the way the church teaches it. I see it as being loving and respectful. Because your husband knows you love him unconditionally, he has the strength to get through this trial. Likewise, he is more motivated to overlook your faults and to support you in hard times.

 

I'm glad it's going so well for you guys! That's great!

Dorinda

How does your church teach it?

 

I ask, because what she described is how I've heard folks in my church describe it. Of course, our pastor does not preach it from the pulpit :p

[coffeefreak]

IMO, it takes 2 people to make a marriage work. However, contrary to a commonly used phrase, it only takes *one* to ruin it. I'm not suggesting that the other person is perfect but that one person can singlehanded be the reason the marriage doesn't work long term.

 

One person changing can be the impetus for lasting change for the positive, but only if the other spouse is in a fixable, willing "open" state.

 

 

 

Wifely or wife only submission is one of those topics where some supporters believe that if other Christians truly understand the term/arrangement, they'd agree. We then end up with posts about how wife only submission is not equal to doormat.

 

I.know.that. I still don't believe it's the Biblical supported arrangement or God's design for marriage. I still feel it's misinterpreted, mis-applied and that it has grown a culture and cult-like following that is icky, creepy and concerning. While I acknowledge that not every wife only submission is not abusive or controlling, in a wife only submission marriage, abuse takes on more power. And men prone to power, control and abuse are going to be attracted to situations where weidling that power and control is culturally sanctioned. There is simply more abuse of power and abuse in general in a setting where power is granted to the person likely to abuse.

 

I've never understood the "someone has to make the final decision" thinking or the "he is the Leader of the family" thinking. Yes, in the course of a marriage there might be a couple of situations in which the adults can't decide. I believe the decision then is made based on the specific situation and each person (the viewpoint that was decided on and the viewpoint that was not) has work and responsibility to move on healthfully. That includes no "I told you so's", no "see, I was right" and no passive/aggressive expressed anger or "holding onto" the situation.

 

I've also observed a manipulative element to some "wife only" submission advocates; that he'll behave if I submit. Or wishful, magical thinking. "If I submit, he'll change dramatically in the ways needed".

 

My husband is no more equipped to be the Leader of this family by virtue of his penis than I am by virtue of my vagina. We are the co-Leaders, submitting to Christ and each other in love, service and care.

 

Joanne,

You always say it so well. I totally agree, as does my husband. He felt icky, and creepy. Like he was no longer allowed to be my friend and he was now my daddy. He also felt manipulated and like he was always trying to guess what I was thinking. I would not give my opinion because I wasn't supposed to. It's a lot of stress for the man to be IT. To have EVERY decision good, or bad fall on his shoulders. It beat him into the ground until he couldn't take it anymore. He was paralyzed and unable to make decisions because he was so tired of making them alone. He felt like a failure because he had lost his wife and partner, but he didn't know why. Wasn't he doing what God wanted him to do? No. God made us the way he made us and never expected us to change. We are partners in every sense of the word, and the minute we forgot that, things started to fall apart.

Dorinda

[justamouse]

The point is that submission is not a matter of obtaining a desired result, but it IS a matter of obedience to God. The Bible is clear on this.

 

 

Submit to one another

out of reverence for Christ.

Wives, submit to your husbands... (Ephesians 5:21-22)

 

That second Submit there? In the Greek, the original language of the new testament bible? That SUBMIT is NOT there.

 

So, it actually reads,

 

Wives, to your husbands.

 

That submit was tacked on there by those well meaning patriarchal priests who liked to do stuff like burn heretics at the stake?

 

I wonder if they knew all the control they would get with just a few word additions...

 

The versions of the bible we have today are a translations of translations. PLEASE do not tell people that the bible says it as law when it's not even there.

 

MUTUAL submission as brothers and sisters in Christ, co heirs to the kingdom, co workers, co laborers. CO.

[Sputterduck]

The point is that submission is not a matter of obtaining a desired result, but it IS a matter of obedience to God. The Bible is clear on this. For someone who is unsaved, I have no problem if they want to argue this. Their arguments are based on "I think", "I feel", "In my experience", or "In my opinion"--which really means diddly to be. Worldy wisdom changes. It is a shame that people take advantage of submission or abuse their wives--it is called sin. That does not make God's Word void.

 

The problem with that is if the husband is not also in line with God, the situation can easily become abusive.

[Crimson Wife]

That word [submission], which doesn't appear in the original Greek, was chosen for the English translation for a reason. You have to consider what that reason was. It's not enough to say that you ascribe a different definition to the word.

 

Where is your source for this assertion? This article has a long discussion of the translations of the Greek hupotasso (c.f. Ephesians 5:21) and kephale (c.f. 1 Corinthians 11:3, Ephesians 4:15, Ephesians 5:32-33).

 

The Latin Vulgate uses the term subjecti so it's not like the English translation of the original Greek as "submission" was something new.

[Crimson Wife]

Submit to one another

out of reverence for Christ.

Wives, submit to your husbands... (Ephesians 5:21-22)

 

That second Submit there? In the Greek, the original language of the new testament bible? That SUBMIT is NOT there.

 

Source, please. :)

[kalanamak]

I am talking about a wife choosing to build her husband up by respecting him rather than tear him down by constantly doubting' date=' questioning, second-guessing, and nagging.[/quote']

 

This is just old-fashioned manners. I think hubbies should do it, too.

[PineFarmMom]

:iagree:

 

I think fragments of the fem movement (I'M NOT SAYING THE ENTIRE FEMINIST MOVEMENT) has perverted the meaning and many people over the past 50ish years have bought into that.

 

:iagree: Precisely!!

[Lovedtodeath]

Submit to one another

out of reverence for Christ.

Wives, submit to your husbands... (Ephesians 5:21-22)

 

That second Submit there? In the Greek, the original language of the new testament bible? That SUBMIT is NOT there.

 

So, it actually reads,

 

Wives, to your husbands.

 

That submit was tacked on there by those well meaning patriarchal priests who liked to do stuff like burn heretics at the stake?

 

I wonder if they knew all the control they would get with just a few word additions...

 

The versions of the bible we have today are a translations of translations. PLEASE do not tell people that the bible says it as law when it's not even there.

 

MUTUAL submission as brothers and sisters in Christ, co heirs to the kingdom, co workers, co laborers. CO.

I don't see that changing the meaning. Always wear rain gear in the city. Children, on your feet...

 

What are the children wearing on their feet? If someone translated that to Always wear rain gear in the city. Children, wear rain gear on your feet... I wouldn't think that they added that in order to be misleading.

[Lovedtodeath]

Joanne,

You always say it so well. I totally agree, as does my husband. He felt icky, and creepy. Like he was no longer allowed to be my friend and he was now my daddy. He also felt manipulated and like he was always trying to guess what I was thinking. I would not give my opinion because I wasn't supposed to. It's a lot of stress for the man to be IT. To have EVERY decision good, or bad fall on his shoulders. It beat him into the ground until he couldn't take it anymore. He was paralyzed and unable to make decisions because he was so tired of making them alone. He felt like a failure because he had lost his wife and partner, but he didn't know why. Wasn't he doing what God wanted him to do? No. God made us the way he made us and never expected us to change. We are partners in every sense of the word, and the minute we forgot that, things started to fall apart.

Dorinda

I had never heard of this form of submission before reading it here on this forum. Wow. How on earth did they get the idea that a wife is not to tell her husband her opinion? That's what happens when you throw out the "Old Testament".

[Joanne]

The point is that submission is not a matter of obtaining a desired result, but it IS a matter of obedience to God. The Bible is clear on this. For someone who is unsaved, I have no problem if they want to argue this. Their arguments are based on "I think", "I feel", "In my experience", or "In my opinion"--which really means diddly to be. Worldy wisdom changes. It is a shame that people take advantage of submission or abuse their wives--it is called sin. That does not make God's Word void.

 

1) I am saved.

 

2) My salvation is not in question.

 

3) The Bible is not "clear on this". Your understanding of certain translations might lead you to feel so, but studies on the verses provide another perspective.

 

4) I didn't suggest that the existence of abuse makes God's word void. I was speaking of the culture and dogma that I've observed grow up around some of the "wifely submission" advocates. So much of what is in books, websites, lectures and sermons about it is *extra*Biblical.

 

5) I am not anti-submission. I'm anti wife only submission.

[coffeefreak]

How does your church teach it?

 

I ask, because what she described is how I've heard folks in my church describe it. Of course, our pastor does not preach it from the pulpit :p

 

My former church taught that Biblical submission means the husband is in charge and runs the family. This means he makes every decision and the wife has no say. For example, I had surgery in 2007. I did not want my mother to come. I BEGGED my husband not to have her. He didn't know what to do. He asked our pastor and the pastor told him, he was the head of the house. The decision had been made and that my dh knew what was best for our family, not me. Um, it was my Mother! Hellooooo!!! Anyway, dh allowed her to come and it was a disaster (to say the least.):glare:

 

The pastor would also preach from the pulpit that husbands had to make the decisions if they wanted respect from their children and wives could not state their opinions in front of the children because it would undermine the whole family structure. That we were to show our daughters by example the kind of wife that pleased God and they would thereby walk with the Lord and be blessed with Godly husbands. If we didn't do this, our children would be cursed and generational sin would continue.

 

You get the picture. It's why Vyckie's site spoke to me. She went through so much of what we did, even listened to a pastor that our former pastor is good friends with. Yet, I'm still a Christian and she's chosen to leave the faith. I thought her wording of the poll was very interesting because my dh and I have come to the conclusion that submission as taught by the church is hurtful and an incorrect interpretation, but I'd never heard anyone else say that. I've heard plenty of people say what others are saying. That it depends on your definition. But I don't agree with that. The definition of submission is one person submitting or letting another have authority over them. I have a personal relationship with Christ, and He is the only one I submit to. I have respect for other people's authority, and I have respect for my husband and he is an equal authority in our house (with me). That's the description I see Paul explaining in Ephesians. A system of mutual respect and love.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[justamouse]

First off, I'm quite offended that my salvation is brought into question because I interpret that verse differently. Believe me, I know my salvation is secure.

 

 

By Kalinda Rose Stevenson, PhD

 

[snip]

 

Every English translation I have ever seen translates Ephesians 5:22 as a complete sentence, with an imperative verb addressed to women. Here are a few samples:

 

“Wives, submit yourself to your own husbands as unto the Lord” (King James Version.)

“Wives be subject to your husbands as to the Lord” (Modern Language Version.)

“You wives must submit to your husbands’ leadership in the same way you submit to the Lord” (Living Bible.)

“Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord” (Revised Standard Version.)

“Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord” (New Revised Standard Version.)

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord”(New International Version.)

This is clear enough, isn’t it? Whether it is “submit” or “be subject,” in English translations, Ephesians 5:22 is a separate sentence with an imperative verb. Many English Bibles also treat Ephesians 5:22 as the start of a new paragraph.

 

And this is exactly the problem. Ephesians was not written in English. Ephesians was written in Greek, sometime in the first century. When you consult the Greek version of Ephesians, you will notice something remarkable. (Here is the Greek version in an interlinear form with English translations.)

 

Verse 5:22, in its entirety reads: “Wives to their own husbands as to the Lord.”

This isn’t even a complete sentence, because there is no verb.

 

So, where does the idea of submission come from? It comes from the verb of the previous verse, Ephesians 5:21.

 

In 5:21, the verb is not an imperative addressed only to wives. Instead, it is what Greek grammar calls a “reflexive” verb, in which submission is “to one another other.”

 

Here are some translations of 5:21.

 

“Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God (King James Version.)

Be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ (Modern Language version.)

Honor Christ by submitting to one another (Living Bible.)

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (Revised Standard Version.)

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (New Revised Standard.)

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (New International Version.)

When it comes to Ephesians 5:21 and 5:22, we have two distinct translation decisions at work in most English Bibles:

 

The first is that English translations take the idea of submission from the verb in 5:21 and create an imperative form of the verb in 5:22, which has no verb.

The second is that English translations tend to treat 5:21 and 5:22 as separate units, with no real connection to each other.

 

The separation of 5:21 and 5:22 into separate units demonstrates the sometimes misleading consequences of dividing Biblical books into chapters and verses.

 

In the earliest Greek manuscripts, there were no spaces between words and no punctuation at all. This means that there were no separate sentences and paragraphs.

 

All of the punctuation, and the division in sentences, verses, and chapters were added over time. Sometimes, the divisions into sentences, chapters, and verses make logical sense. Other times, these divisions separate what were clearly intended to be whole units.

 

The division of Ephesians 5:21 and 5:22 is one of the most dramatic examples of dividing what was clearly intended to be a whole thought. 5:22 is a phrase without a verb. The idea of submission comes from 5:21, in which submission is “to one another.”

 

It is simply irresponsible and misleading to take the idea of submission from 5:21, turn it into an imperative addressed only to women in 5:22, and then disconnect the idea from 5:21. Yet, this is exactly what many English translations do.

 

The King James Version of the Bible treated every verse as a new paragraph. Many of the newer translations separate chapters and verses into topical paragraphs. Some even add topic headings to the paragraphs.

 

If you investigate a series of English translations, you will find that some versions treat 5:21 as the closing sentence of a paragraph. Some treat is as a paragraph on its own. Some treat is as the opening sentence of a paragraph which includes 5:22.

 

The most misleading versions treat 5:22 as the first sentence of a new paragraph, under a heading. For example, the New International Version starts a new paragraph with 5:22, under the heading, “Wives and Husbands.”

 

What is the effect of these translation and publication decisions? In the time and place in which Ephesians was written, the idea of submission to one another in marriage was a radically new idea. In contrast, there was nothing new in the idea that wives were to submit to their husbands.

 

As with so many radical ideas coming out of the New Testament, the original idea was lost, and replaced by traditional ideas. The radical vision of mutual submission reverted into a traditional power structure within marriage.

 

The translators who really do know better reinforce the traditional ideas by adding a verb that is not there, and treating 5:22 as a new paragraph, completely separate from 5:21.

 

Whether or not Mike Huckabee succeeds in his quest for the presidency, my point is that the Bible is a potent force in our political and social life, for believers and non-believers alike. The real problem is that often claims about the Bible are based on mistranslations and misinterpretations, which tend to reinforce traditional ideas about social status and roles. Ephesians 5:22 is a powerful example of such a mistranslation.

 

Every English translation I know has imposed a meaning that was not present in the Greek. And this is why Ephesians 5:22 does not command wives to submit to their husbands.

 

© Kalinda Rose Stevenson, PhD

 

 

 

 

 

[snip-aw, heck, we need the rest-]

 

 

 

http://goingbrokewithjesus.com/blog/jesus-and-money/why-ephesians-522-does-not-command-wives-to-submit-to-their-husbands_10 Edited November 17, 2009 by justamouse

[coffeefreak]

http://goingbrokewithjesus.com/blog/jesus-and-money/why-ephesians-522-does-not-command-wives-to-submit-to-their-husbands_10

 

Thanks so much for posting that! That's an awesome article!

[Peela]

Submission should be to a higher authority, as in God, the Great Spirit, or however you see the great universal force we all come from and go back to...I dont believe in submission to any human. Not in any "you will make all the decisions" sort of sense, anyway.

I do see how the concept can be of benefit to a woman who is shrewish, critical, overly independent etc- but you dont need "submission" to change those sort of behaviours.

[DB in NJ]

I voted yes. I think my laid-back easy-going hubby thrives when I "submit" to his judgment. It builds his confidence and lets me know I respect and trust his judgment.

 

However, we very much have an equal marriage so I may not be defining submission as some would define it. Basically, I show my husband that I trust him when I say, "Okay, after we've agonized and hashed over this issue and still not come to a clear sense of direction, I'm going to step back and let you decide how we proceed." He sees this in a few positive ways, even thought it typically scares him to death.

 

1) My willingness to stick with him like glue through thick or thin, through good or bad decisions.

 

2) My respect for his ability to make a decision.

 

3) His ability to provide and protect his wife from having to "live with" a bad decision. In other words he is willing to be the fall guy. He is actually MORE careful with the decision when he has the final say.

 

But what can I say, I'm married to he greatest guy in the world who wouldn't pick Chinese over Italian if he thought it would ruin my day.

 

When we were first married I constantly fought his decisions and I eroded his self-confidence. Submission has been wonderful in our house.

 

I seriously could've written this post -- word for word. This has been our experience EXACTLY.

 

btw, we celebrated 20 years of marriage on September 30th. Nobody thought we'd make it past 5 years ;)

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay, so Ephesians 5:21-25

 

Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ. Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord because a husband is head of his wife as Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body. In fact as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, so let wives also be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, continue loving your wives as the Christ also loved the congregationand delivered himself up for it...

 

Are there numerous mistakes? Because I really don't see the one word changing my idea of what these scriptures are saying. But, like I said, I had never heard of the extreme form of subjection that requires no opinions, etc.

[justamouse]

Okay, so Ephesians 5:21-25

 

Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ. Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord because a husband is head of his wife as Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body. In fact as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, so let wives also be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, continue loving your wives as the Christ also loved the congregationand delivered himself up for it...

 

Are there numerous mistakes? Because I really don't see the one word changing my idea of what these scriptures are saying. But, like I said, I had never heard of the extreme form of subjection that requires no opinions, etc.

 

 

Go back to the quote I clipped and posted. You're still adding words and meanings that aren't there.

[Ginevra]

Like he was no longer allowed to be my friend and he was now my daddy. He also felt manipulated and like he was always trying to guess what I was thinking. I would not give my opinion because I wasn't supposed to. It's a lot of stress for the man to be IT. To have EVERY decision good, or bad fall on his shoulders. It beat him into the ground until he couldn't take it anymore. He was paralyzed and unable to make decisions because he was so tired of making them alone. He felt like a failure because he had lost his wife and partner, but he didn't know why.

 

This always drives me completely crazy. To me, this is not what submission is about! I submit to my husband. It doesn't look like this at all. I give my opinion - sometimes passionately. To me, my husband being the head of the family doesn't mean he's the only human in the family. Argh! I still tell him what I think is a good decision; I still freely point out what I think is a pitfall of a given matter. The Bible does also speak of the need for counsel and the benefit of two being better than one because if one falls, the other can help. A helpmeet does just that - helps. How can I possibly help if I am mute?

 

Oh, I know better! I know better because this debate always goes this way. There are always lots of families where healthy, normal and IMO, godly submission is practiced. We can speak about it till kingdom come, but it falls on the deaf ears of those who have been abused by what is *NOT* submission, but slavery, or have seen it happen. To those, submission will always sound like a dirty word.

 

Drives me completely crazy. Everytime.

[WishboneDawn]

Okay, so Ephesians 5:21-25

 

Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ. Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord because a husband is head of his wife as Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body. In fact as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, so let wives also be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, continue loving your wives as the Christ also loved the congregationand delivered himself up for it...

 

Are there numerous mistakes? Because I really don't see the one word changing my idea of what these scriptures are saying. But, like I said, I had never heard of the extreme form of subjection that requires no opinions, etc.

 

I want to know where the churches are that are dissuading young people from marriage period. Where young people are being told they should aspire to be celibate and marriage should only be resorted to if they find they can't manage their lust. The Bible is pretty darn clear on that. Why is it that it's so often the scripture quotes that focus on controling and constraining just the womenfolk and their bodies become so popular while a nice chunk of Paul telling us all, women and men, how to handle ourselves in regards to sex and marriage (don't do it unless you're weak) seems to rarely be referenced?

[Joanne]

This always drives me completely crazy. To me, this is not what submission is about! I submit to my husband. It doesn't look like this at all. I give my opinion - sometimes passionately. To me, my husband being the head of the family doesn't mean he's the only human in the family. Argh! I still tell him what I think is a good decision; I still freely point out what I think is a pitfall of a given matter. The Bible does also speak of the need for counsel and the benefit of two being better than one because if one falls, the other can help. A helpmeet does just that - helps. How can I possibly help if I am mute?

 

Oh, I know better! I know better because this debate always goes this way. There are always lots of families where healthy, normal and IMO, godly submission is practiced. We can speak about it till kingdom come, but it falls on the deaf ears of those who have been abused by what is *NOT* submission, but slavery, or have seen it happen. To those, submission will always sound like a dirty word.

 

Drives me completely crazy. Everytime.

 

Or, there are people who totally get what you are saying. They don't believe that most people who embrace wife-only submission are extreme, or in slavery.

 

And they still disagree that it is the Biblical design for marriage. I am not saying this from having been abused. My xh wouldn't know the phrase "submission" in a Christian context at all.

 

I'm saying this because, although I hear what you are saying and understand it, I still disagree from a practical, human, woman and Christian standpoint that it is a healthy design.

[WishboneDawn]

To those, submission will always sound like a dirty word.

 

Drives me completely crazy. Everytime.

 

I think the fact is submission IS used by some Christians and some churches as a means to silence wives and women. That some women find it helpful and don't see it as a means of silencing them in their relationships doesn't erase that fact. What might go a long way to helping others see submission in a different way is if there was some visible movement to oppose those churches who use it to control. I know I see comments here about what submission is and isn't but there seems to be no public voice of submissive wives countering the very public patriarchal movements in some churches. If there's no opposing voice, no public debate within the Christian community that practices submission then people who strive to be good Christians will think it's the no-voice, oppressive submission is what is proper. Is what it means to really be Christian.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by Daisy

I voted yes. I think my laid-back easy-going hubby thrives when I "submit" to his judgment. It builds his confidence and lets me know I respect and trust his judgment.

 

However, we very much have an equal marriage so I may not be defining submission as some would define it. Basically, I show my husband that I trust him when I say, "Okay, after we've agonized and hashed over this issue and still not come to a clear sense of direction, I'm going to step back and let you decide how we proceed." He sees this in a few positive ways, even thought it typically scares him to death.

 

1) My willingness to stick with him like glue through thick or thin, through good or bad decisions.

 

2) My respect for his ability to make a decision.

 

3) His ability to provide and protect his wife from having to "live with" a bad decision. In other words he is willing to be the fall guy. He is actually MORE careful with the decision when he has the final say.

 

But what can I say, I'm married to he greatest guy in the world who wouldn't pick Chinese over Italian if he thought it would ruin my day.

 

When we were first married I constantly fought his decisions and I eroded his self-confidence. Submission has been wonderful in our house.

 

In my home and marriage, paragraph #2 goes both ways. There are times where I do this;times where he does.

 

#1 and #2 exist for both genders here.

 

#3 would not work for me.

 

As far as Chinese over Italian, my DH wouldn't dream of it if even thought I had a slight preference. I feel the same way. (I'm less giving on the food preferences of the kids :lol:)

[Aussenfay]

1) I am saved.

 

2) My salvation is not in question.

 

3) The Bible is not "clear on this". Your understanding of certain translations might lead you to feel so, but studies on the verses provide another perspective.

 

4) I didn't suggest that the existence of abuse makes God's word void. I was speaking of the culture and dogma that I've observed grow up around some of the "wifely submission" advocates. So much of what is in books, websites, lectures and sermons about it is *extra*Biblical.

 

5) I am not anti-submission. I'm anti wife only submission.

 

Perhaps I worded this poorly. I was not questioning your salvation, but pointing out that I could understand your position more if you were not saved. To be saved and argue away or ignore verses that clearly lay out God's design for the family does not make sense to me. You don't argue on Scripture, but on your own wisdom. As a Christian discussing a Biblical concept it does not make sense to counter an argument based on God's wisdom with one based solely on your own.

 

For the record, I am not a subscriber to the "patriarchy" movement (nor any "movement"). I am not pro wife-only submission BUT a wife can only control her own submission in obedience to God. I hate when husbands abuse their authority to appear spiritual to men. They walk up to church all spiffy (Bible under their arm) while the dowdy wife trails five feet behind lugging four children, a diaper bag, and food for potluck. This unfortunately happens. Submission does not mean not expressing opinions or agreeing on everything all the time. This is pretty clear: Ephesians 5:19-33

 

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

 

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. the body of Christ (the Church)

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

Wives: submit to your husband, be subject to your husband, reverence your husband

Husbands: love your wives, lay down your life for your wives (this doesn't just mean death), nourish your wife, cherish your wife

 

Pretty sweet deal, IMO :).

 

 

On another note, God promised to preserve his Word forever. It is not hidden away in some obscure text in a language that the majority of the Christian world can not read. All Scripture is not profitable for doctrine for all people, but all Scripture is profitable for instruction and edification.

[Ginevra]

And they still disagree that it is the Biblical design for marriage. I am not saying this from having been abused. My xh wouldn't know the phrase "submission" in a Christian context at all.

 

I'm saying this because, although I hear what you are saying and understand it, I still disagree from a practical, human, woman and Christian standpoint that it is a healthy design.

 

Personally, I don't preach it as a Biblical design for marriage. As I mentioned, (although you probably didn't see it) for myself it appeared to be what God impressed upon me in my own personal Bible study. I don't go to a church with strong fundamentalist leanings and I live in the liberal Northeast, where patriarchy is scarce anyway. So, I was never trying to live up to some externally-imposed view of wifehood. So, I took what I believed God was trying to tell me and applied it. And it really turned things around.

 

So, you are saying that you don't think it is the Biblical design for marriage - that is fine. But do you not believe God uses scriptures to speak to us, to guide us into what is fitting for us?

 

What I've seen many times over when this subject has been discussed, is that those who see submission as abusive, creepy, evil, etc. are often those who have been in a dysfunctional relationship (or have witnessed one/some) where the "submission doctrine" is but one facet of the whole messed-up picture. I browsed around at the linked site and it bears out just what I'm saying. No, I don't think you can take two unstable people, with emotional and psychological problems, foist some strict legalistic doctrine upon them and expect it all to bloom into something wonderful. FTR, I am utterly against this form of "submission", which isn't submission at all.

[Joanne]

Perhaps I worded this poorly. I was not questioning your salvation, but pointing out that I could understand your position more if you were not saved. To be saved and argue away or ignore verses that clearly lay out God's design for the family does not make sense to me. You don't argue on Scripture, but on your own wisdom. As a Christian discussing a Biblical concept it does not make sense to counter an argument based on God's wisdom with one based solely on your own.

 

 

On another note, God promised to preserve his Word forever. It is not hidden away in some obscure text in a language that the majority of the Christian world can not read. All Scripture is not profitable for doctrine for all people, but all Scripture is profitable for instruction and edification.

 

Um. I know you meant this to help, but it did not. I am arguing against wife only submission from the position of a Bible believing, saved Christian. You'd understand it more if I weren't saved? :confused:

 

I disagree that it's "clearly" laid out. I even more strongly disagree that English is the end-all of study and understanding of scripture. Even more so, that I should agree simply because it's been conservative Christian culture to agree in wife only submission based on English translated verses.

[Joanne]

FTR, I am utterly against this form of "submission", which isn't submission at all.

 

I quite agree and I want to say that it's like the spanking/abuse arguement. (Although I disagree with spanking) If it's abuse, it's not spanking.

 

About your other assertions, I do believe God calls us specifically in certain ways.

[justamouse]

This is pretty clear: Ephesians 5:19-33

 

 

On another note, God promised to preserve his Word forever. It is not hidden away in some obscure text in a language that the majority of the Christian world can not read. All Scripture is not profitable for doctrine for all people, but all Scripture is profitable for instruction and edification.

 

Again, you are misquoting the whole scripture, and it's meaning. I posted the context of the scripture and its correct meaning a few pages back. What you're trying to argue is that just because a duck is a fowl it can be interchanged with a goose. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139169&page=12

 

Oh, I know better! I know better because this debate always goes this way. There are always lots of families where healthy, normal and IMO, godly submission is practiced. We can speak about it till kingdom come, but it falls on the deaf ears of those who have been abused by what is *NOT* submission, but slavery, or have seen it happen. To those, submission will always sound like a dirty word.

 

Drives me completely crazy. Everytime.

 

Again, there is not the word submit in that scripture, Paul's meaning was 180 degrees of how it's being taught.

 

At the time, wifely submission was the norm. He was preaching that women were Co heirs! This was new! It was revolutionary! It was empowering! All this time these women had been treated with less ability and authority, but that was never Christ's intention, which was why so much of his message/ministry was centered around women!

 

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile."

 

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave."

 

Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman."

 

 

Baruch Atah Adonai, Eloheinu Melech ha-olam, shelo asani ishah; "Blessed are You, O Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, Who did not make me a woman."

 

This is the morning prayer of the Orthodox Jewish man.

 

Christ came to set the captives free, to take off the yoke of the law, to make all things new, and here we are putting it right back up on our sister's shoulders.

 

If you want to submit, then submit, but please don't attach Christ's law to it, he gave us none but to love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

 

Humans love LOVE religion. We love ritual, we love tradition and in some sense these are good things. But what Christ has set free, should be kept free no matter HOW much we love the comfort of traditional roles.

Edited November 17, 2009 by justamouse

[OnTheBrink]

Um. I know you meant this to help, but it did not. I am arguing against wife only submission from the position of a Bible believing, saved Christian. You'd understand it more if I weren't saved? :confused:

 

I disagree that it's "clearly" laid out. I even more strongly disagree that English is the end-all of study and understanding of scripture. Even more so, that I should agree simply because it's been conservative Christian culture to agree in wife only submission based on English translated verses.

 

I don't know one single conservative Christian who believes this. Not one. I find the bolded insulting.

[justamouse]

I don't know one single conservative Christian who believes this. Not one. I find the bolded insulting.

 

 

What Joanne bolded has been taught in EVERY single conservative Christian church I *EVER* attended. That' 30 years sitting under Pastors who taught it. And they were ALL conservative Christians.

 

Say what you want, but I know what I saw and heard.

[Ginevra]

I think the fact is submission IS used by some Christians and some churches as a means to silence wives and women. That some women find it helpful and don't see it as a means of silencing them in their relationships doesn't erase that fact. What might go a long way to helping others see submission in a different way is if there was some visible movement to oppose those churches who use it to control. I know I see comments here about what submission is and isn't but there seems to be no public voice of submissive wives countering the very public patriarchal movements in some churches. If there's no opposing voice, no public debate within the Christian community that practices submission then people who strive to be good Christians will think it's the no-voice, oppressive submission is what is proper. Is what it means to really be Christian.

 

Yes, it is used by some churches/Christians to silence wives and women. But what is new about some factions using the Bible to back up their wacky views?

 

We are all supposed to discern what is good and right from what is creepy and wrong. We are all supposed to study the Bible ourselves and observe the fruit of ours and others' actions. See rotten fruit? Obviously that practice is not as God would intend.

 

I have seen discussion and materials that aim to explain submission in contrast to that awful abused waif view that some hold. But, it's also hard to quantify. It has to come out of one's own heart, not be something you work to "do". So...I think that is one reason it's not going to catch on and replace the yucky "submission" picture. Because it's quiet and from the heart; it is internal and not a list of rules.

[OnTheBrink]

What Joanne bolded has been taught in EVERY single conservative Christian church I *EVER* attended. That' 30 years sitting under Pastors who taught it. And they were ALL conservative Christians.

 

Say what you want, but I know what I saw and heard.

 

 

Thanks, I will. I, too, know what I've seen and been taught for the past 25 years. And it ain't what Joanne keeps calling "conservative Christian culture."

[coffeefreak]

Again, you are misquoting the whole scripture, and it's meaning. I posted the context of the scripture and its correct meaning a few pages back. What you're trying to argue is that just because a duck is a fowl it can be interchanged with a goose. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139169&page=12

 

 

 

Again, there is not the word submit in that scripture, Paul's meaning was 180 degrees of how it's being taught.

 

At the time, wifely submission was the norm. He was preaching that women were Co heirs! This was new! It was revolutionary! It was empowering! All this time these women had been treated with less ability and authority, but that was never Christ's intention, which was why so much of his message/ministry was centered around women!

 

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile."

 

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave."

 

Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman."

 

 

Baruch Atah Adonai, Eloheinu Melech ha-olam, shelo asani ishah; "Blessed are You, O Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, Who did not make me a woman."

 

This is the morning prayer of the Orthodox Jewish man.

 

Christ came to set the captives free, to take off the yoke of the law, to make all things new, and here we are putting it right back up on our sister's shoulders.

 

If you want to submit, then submit, but please don't attach Christ's law to it, he gave us none but to love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

 

Humans love LOVE religion. We love ritual, we love tradition and in some sense these are good things. But what Christ has set free, should be kept free no matter HOW much we love the comfort of traditional roles.

 

WOW! That's amazing. :hurray:

[Aussenfay]

Again, you are misquoting the whole scripture, and it's meaning. I posted the context of the scripture and its correct meaning a few pages back. What you're trying to argue is that just because a duck is a fowl it can be interchanged with a goose. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139169&page=12

 

 

I am not misquoting the Scripture, which is why I posted that entire passage in context (which, by the way, has numerous supporting verses backing it up). It is not OT law. What you call "correct" meaning is really trying to intellectualize and explain away a portion of Scripture you disagree with. It's like saying "it depends on what the meaning of is is". You are telling me that since I can't read Greek, then I can not have God's Word (even though he promised to preserve it for me forever-Psalm 12:6-7)? I need you to "interpret" it for me or "tell me what it really means"? God was clever/powerful enough to inspire the Bible but not to preserve it for the majority of Christians today? Only a small sect of scholars can really know what God means? Sounds familiar...

Edited November 17, 2009 by Aussenfay

[OnTheBrink]

 

 

I am not misquoting the Scripture, which is why I posted that entire passage in context (which, by the way, has numerous supporting verses backing it up). It is not OT law. What you call "correct" meaning is really trying to intellectualize and explain away a portion of Scripture you disagree with. It's like saying "it depends on what the meaning of is is". You are telling me that since I can't read Greek, then I can not have God's Word (even though he promised to preserve it for me forever-Psalm 12:6-7)? I need you to "interpret" it for me or "tell me what it really means"? God was clever/powerful enough to inspire the Bible but not to preserve it for the majority of Christians today? Only a small sect of scholars can really know what God means? Sounds familiar...

 

:iagree:

[Joanne]

I don't know one single conservative Christian who believes this. Not one. I find the bolded insulting.

 

:confused:

 

The very arguements in this thread are from English translations of our Bible. :001_huh:

 

FWIW, I think that translations miss nuance in many other ways, also. Notably, words that define kinds of love, care, nurture, etc.

[Joanne]

I need you to "interpret" it for me or "tell me what it really means"? God was clever/powerful enough to inspire the Bible but not to preserve it for the majority of Christians today? Only a small sect of scholars can really know what God means? Sounds familiar...

 

I'm sincerely not understanding your perspective on this.

 

Do you therefore trust any English translation?

 

Do you trust those who preach it from their own select translation?

 

Do you not see issues with translation?

 

I am *truly* not trying to be snarky. I am not understanding what seems to me to be an open acceptance of the Bible in English without any deeper scrutiny.

[Aussenfay]

FWIW, I don't think anyone should take the exhortation for women to submit to their husbands to an extreme. There is the danger of taking this one concept of wifely submission and elevating it as a central tenet of a "new gospel". I don't consider it any more important than the exhortation to love one another or exhortations to serve God/grow in grace and truth/live Holy and sanctified lives in obedience to God. It's all part of the package.

[Joanne]

FWIW, I don't think anyone should take the exhortation for women to submit to their husbands to an extreme. There is the danger of taking this one concept of wifely submission and elevating it as a central tenet of a "new gospel". I don't consider it any more important than the exhortation to love one another or exhortations to serve God/grow in grace and truth/live Holy and sanctified lives in obedience to God. It's all part of the package.

 

I'd like to respectfully ask if you see how Christians might see, honor and embrace *mutual* submission but not wifely/wife only?

[Aussenfay]

Oh, I've done a lot of deeper scrutiny but if I mentioned it here some sweet people would truly lose their minds :). I'm not looking to open any more touchy subjects or provoke anyone. But I do believe that God is powerful enough to inspire His perfect Word and to preserve it accurately FOREVER. God used imperfect men to write his perfect Word, and He can (and did) use imperfect men to accurately preserve it for all generations.

 

 

I'm sincerely not understanding your perspective on this.

 

Do you therefore trust any English translation?

 

Do you trust those who preach it from their own select translation?

 

Do you not see issues with translation?

 

I am *truly* not trying to be snarky. I am not understanding what seems to me to be an open acceptance of the Bible in English without any deeper scrutiny.

[Aussenfay]

I'd like to respectfully ask if you see how Christians might see, honor and embrace *mutual* submission but not wifely/wife only?

 

I don't think women should be doormats. But women ARE told to submit to both God and our husbands. We don't get to say "I know I didn't live in submission to your will, but I didn't want to be the only one doing it". I am not advocating anything like the perverted picture of submission that so many people on here have witnessed (abusive, not allowed to have opinions or disagree). Submission is not a means to and end but a matter of heart obedience to God.

 

Much worthy of discussion here (especially for those who are more familiar with the crazy side of a man-made "movement") http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/11/14/nlq-faq-does-patriarchy-glorify-god/. I saved the link a few days ago but only read it tonight. I'm not sure I would agree with everything point by point, but it is worthy of reading IMO.

 

I have not known many couples where 'unhealthy submission' is practiced. I AM surrounded by beautiful examples of loving, God-honoring marriages. It is a shame that God's Word gets perverted and twisted into something that does not glorify Him at all. But I don't hold that against God ;).

[Crimson Wife]

What you call "correct" meaning is really trying to intellectualize and explain away a portion of Scripture you disagree with.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

I want to know where the churches are that are dissuading young people from marriage period. Where young people are being told they should aspire to be celibate and marriage should only be resorted to if they find they can't manage their lust. The Bible is pretty darn clear on that. Why is it that it's so often the scripture quotes that focus on controling and constraining just the womenfolk and their bodies become so popular while a nice chunk of Paul telling us all, women and men, how to handle ourselves in regards to sex and marriage (don't do it unless you're weak) seems to rarely be referenced?

Actually I can recall several Watchtower articles about that. The point is that spouses and children can complicate our lives and thus distract us from Christ and our ministry.

[Ginevra]

Originally Posted by Aussenfay

FWIW, I don't think anyone should take the exhortation for women to submit to their husbands to an extreme. There is the danger of taking this one concept of wifely submission and elevating it as a central tenet of a "new gospel". I don't consider it any more important than the exhortation to love one another or exhortations to serve God/grow in grace and truth/live Holy and sanctified lives in obedience to God. It's all part of the package.

I'd like to respectfully ask if you see how Christians might see, honor and embrace *mutual* submission but not wifely/wife only?

 

I know this wasn't asked of me, but I'd like to talk about this. I am thoroughly aware of the mutual submission pov. I've read Families Where Grace is in Place and have discussed this subject for hours and hours and hours on-line.

 

While I do not believe pastors should be foisting submission upon women, which tends to look like the abusive thing we've mentioned, I also don't believe in the interpretation that says, "Good news! It's really about *mutual* submission!" Mutual submission makes no sense to me. If we both have equal responsibility to submit, then nobody has the responsibility to lead. If dh thinks we should buy a peice of property and I disagree, mutual submission has us standing there going, "Well, I'm not submitting on this. I submitted about the car thing and now it's your turn." :tongue_smilie: Which is not submission, obviously.

 

I would be opposed to pastors teaching mutual submission as much as I am opposed to pastors browbeating the women into submission. I see it as quite a stretch to try and interpret the relevant scriptures through the lens of mutual submission.

 

I do believe in the need for a heirarchy and I do believe the Bible endorses it. I know that is another dirty word. I do not believe two people can simultaneously be the head. Most things with two heads are monsterous.

 

I feel that I should also qualify my post(s) with a statement that I am by no means a rock-solid Christian. I have many doubts about the Bible and doubts about the tenents of the faith, so it's not as though I see it in the Bible and think, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!" My views on the submission scriptures came 100% out of my own beliefs about what those scriptures meant and subsequent application in that vein. The concept of mutual submission as it is usually meant would not have changed my marriage for the better. It would have left me in my certainty that I was right about things, therefore, no need to humble myself, give up power intentionally, respect my husband. I would have sat there, convinced of my right position, waiting for him to come around and submit to me, since I obviously had the better idea(s).