When does parentified behavior become toxic?

[abba12]

The little stuff that goes into being part of a family is part of growing up. For me, though, the big stuff is a concern in our household. I think it comes down to need, appreciation and desire. At least two of these needs to exist for the 'big jobs' to be acceptable, in my opinion.

 

Need - Is there a need for the child to do the task, does the child feel a genuine purpose in it? A child who makes dinner every night while their parent watches TV will feel neglected and overworked. A child who makes dinner every night while their mother is ill and their father cares for a disabled sibling may well not, but rather feel the same positive feelings we feel when we genuinely help someone who needs it. The elder of two children may resent dressing and cleaning the younger while mother goes out to work. But in a large family, helping to dress and bathe the younger kids while mother cares for the baby and get dinner ready is quite normal and acceptable. None of us as adults likes doing busywork for other people who should be responsible for it, but most of us would be very happy to help someone struggling to get it together. We wouldn't go clean a childless friends house while they watch TV, but most of us would feel blessed to have the opportunity to clean a friends house who had just lost a baby and was struggling to cope. Kids feel similarly. Where is the line where a situation becomes needful? That's trickier to determine I think. 

 

Appreciation - Does the parent recognise that it is their role being filled by the child, NOT the child's role? Does the parent shower the child with praise for going above and beyond? Does the parent treat the child as an equal in this area, give them autonomy? Are there special privileges or returns for the work being done? I heard of a lady who was bedridden for months, her children took over everything, but there was no resentment because the line, that it was her job the children were taking over and not the children's ultimate responsibility, was never crossed, and because she showered them in appreciation for everything they did for her. 

 

Desire - Sometimes a kid genuinely WANTS to do something, and that's great. My eldest seems to have taken on the job of making breakfast for her sisters, she enjoys it, doesn't even feel like it's a chore. In that instance, go ahead and do it! She is also excluded from other morning chores because she has already done that, so, despite her desire I still treat it as a chore done so she does not feel taken advantage of in the future by doing that big job and then all the other chores alongside her sisters. 

 

This is a sensitive topic for our family. I am severely mentally ill and at times barely functional. During certain bad weeks, my children take on a LOT of responsibility. Other weeks, I take back everything I can aside from the normal childhood chores. And unfortunately, while I try to avoid it at all costs, parent care comes up as well. Not because I ask for help, but because my kids love me and want to help me and feel helpless if they can't assist. I can't expect them to help me, but I can't refuse to let them either, it helps them feel in control of a sometimes powerless and frightening situation. I hope they don't resent me in years to come, I hope I show enough appreciation and keep the lines clear enough. I emphasise to eldest that it's not her responsibility to make me feel better emotionally, that if she would like to help she can do x, y and z but that if she doesn't that's ok and not her responsibility. And I try to make the extra jobs things they like doing and keep my energy for the things everyone hates. It's hard though.... it's a balance and I'm always worried about asking too much. 

[TCB]

Needed yes, but mission critical necessary or family doesn't function? Nope. That's one of those lines. I want my kids to feel needed. But not bear the weight of the entire family's success.

 

I don't know if he really did, but my husband felt that he bore the weight of the entire family's success and it has had a profound effect on him. This wasn't so much in physical labor but in emotional support and strength.

[Guest]

I agree part way. I don't think that the family should be set up or created in such a way that the older children's work is needed (like the Duggars). However, as in the case of families during the Depression, I don't think that it's wrong to ask older children to contribute to the families survival if circumstances happen (like for Farrar, as well). However, in the case of FaithManor's mom, where there was mental illness, I think that that is another thing altogether. In that case, I think the extended family needed to step in or help provide some alternate childcare. It's seems a bit arbitrary, but I guess I'm saying that if the family is healthy, extra work in extraordinary circumstances is fine. If the family isn't healthy, it isn't.

 

By needed I mean that it makes a meaningful contribution to the family's welfare and happiness as a member of the unit. That's very different than any sort of level of responsibility. It is agency and teamwork, but not *relied upon* to keep everything running and healthy like a parent's contributions.

 

I want my kids to feel needed and integral and loved, but I don't want them to feel relied upon or burdened by responsibility. Those are different things.

[Guest]

I don't know if he really did, but my husband felt that he bore the weight of the entire family's success and it has had a profound effect on him. This wasn't so much in physical labor but in emotional support and strength.

Yes, that's exactly the dynamic I'm talking about that is so draining and scary for a child. It's not their place to be the solid rock upon which everyone relies, that robs one of a critical component of childhood - emotional security and comfort of an active, responsible parent.

 

I'm sorry for your hubby :(

[MinivanMom]

I am another who took on a large amount of responsibility.

 

So, when does it become toxic? I will agree with previous posters that it becomes toxic when the child is being used for the parents' convenience rather than helping out of necessity. It becomes toxic when the child not longer has any space for a life of his or her own. Responsibilities shouldn't interfere with school or with normal, age-appropriate activities with peers. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by MinivanMom

[Moonhawk]

My DH was overly responsible as he was growing up.  By 12, he was the main maker of dinner, cleaning the house, laundry, and taking care of his brothers (3, all younger than him, plus a cousin that lived with them for 1.5 years).  His brothers only did minimal work.  Even though he is the oldest, the gaps aren't THAT big. Once he was 16, he was the main driver for kid stuff. He is a hyper-productive person, I think he was always like that and so he initially didn't realize that it wasn't normal to be doing all this stuff as a kid; he "needs to be doing SOMETHING, no one else is going to do it, and the house needed to be clean" type of mindset. 

 

His parents are doctors, so they could have afforded more help.  And when he was younger, they did have people to help clean, etc. So I don't think there is an excuse of survival of the family in his case.

 

It was detrimental in a couple different ways (this is my perspective now):

 

One, he didn't get as much time to do what he wanted as a kid and to explore his own interests.  He had a broken leg when he was 15, and he has casually mentioned that making dinner with crutches is a lot harder than it sounds.  So, your kid has a broken leg, you have $$, and you still have him run the house and make dinner?  It didn't heal correctly and they had to re-break and do surgery to fix it, along with bedrest.  Apparently his mom/dad made dinner during that time, but the house was a mess.  

 

Two, his brothers reaped the benefits of this disproportionally.  For example, one brother was able to take on part time (acting) jobs starting at 14, because DH took him to his jobs, did all his laundry/ironing/packing for the shows, packed him food for while he was at work, made sure his homework was [kind of] done, etc. This brother has been really successful because of the early start -- by the time he graduated high school he had a respectable work experience and contacts in his field.  It's great for him. This meant, though, that my DH couldn't take on any other job or get work experience past bagging jobs because his obligations to his brothers was something he had to work around.

 

My DH in the past few years has started to feel resentment for it.  He's tired of cleaning houses, doing laundry, and making dinner, because he's done it so long.  Sure, he helps me around the house -- and is a great help and has taught me so much in terms of doing this efficiently and better faster -- but he's just "done with it." And he gets irritated with his brothers when they say something about how easy it is to be a kid because you don't have to do any chores or anything, when really he was the one held responsible to do it all and that's why it was so easy for them. And, irritated that they don't see what he did to help them as something special (I guess, they were kids too, and it wasn't their fault.  My DH sees this too, but it still rankles). And when his mom talks about how hard it is to raise 4 boys, home school, and work, he can't listen very long...

 

His approach with our kids is that they will know how to do all the chores of running a house, and have definite responsibilities to the family and house. The differences being, that EVERYONE has responsibilities, that are commensurate with their abilities, don't take all of their time, and are paid for things that they do above and beyond their normal chores. He doesn't want a kid, especially our eldest (DD8), to feel like they are in charge of their younger siblings.  

 

All this to say, I think it's toxic when the child is instrumental/lynchpinning the household together, and the survival of the family could be secured in another way, and there is no effort on the part of the adults/parents to change the situation so that the child only has the responsibility as long as absolutely necessary, and is not taken for granted. And the child's future and mental wellbeing suffer because they feel obligated to put others before themselves. 

[MamaBearTeacher]

 

* Edit: A friend-of-a-friend who works with youth offenders once said something interesting about drug dealers. She said that she asked them, as part of her job, why they got into dealing, and they pretty much all said the same thing: Somebody had to pay the bills, and that's the easiest way for somebody under 18, or especially under 16 to make money. 

 

So sad.

[MamaBearTeacher]

I had a friend whose parents were divorced, and they fought over custody of him all the time.  It became clear though that they each wanted him around to babysit their younger child/ren for free.  Once, his dad told him he couldn't be in a school play because he might be needed on rehearsal nights to watch his little brother and sister.  Not because Dad and stepmom worked nights or something but because Dad and stepmom were reliving their youths and expected to be able to "go out" every Friday and Saturday.  Unfortunately, his mom was not much better.  She wanted him to watch his much younger sister all the time.  He didn't mind watching his siblings, but it was pretty awful to feel like that was the main reason he was wanted around.  Certainly, it was not appropriate to restrict his age appropriate activities because of his mom, dad and stepmom feeling entitled to a free babysitter.  

 

It's hard to define it as I would never say that, in general, chores or watching a younger sibling is an inappropriate expectation on a teenager.  It can become too much, though, depending on the circumstances.  

 

So for me, it's an "I know it when I see it" situation.  It's not the task so much as the volume.  

 

This made me sad.  I hope he found people in his life who loved him for him.

[sassenach]

I like this answer, but...a parent dealing with, say, a mental illness may not be capable of doing what a more functional child is capable of doing. Would that  be necessarily toxic? Would it be different if the parent were profoundly disabled in a way that we more easily recognize as physical? It seems to me that the answer would depend on a whole host of other factors; big picture including the entire environment and particular people involved. 

 

I don't think there really can be a generic answer to the question in the OP because the dynamics of each situation will be different, the capacities of the people involved will be different.

In the case of mental illness, yes, I think a functional child making up for a non-functional parent can be toxic. It may be reality but that doesn't make it healthy.

 

In the case of physical disability, in a healthy environment, the adult will be mindful of maintaining some balance with the child's workload. This might mean bringing in help through social services or asking other adults to help. 

 

The main point is that there is a parent who cares about and is working to not overburden the child, while fully acknowledging that in a family, everyone has to chip in. That balance is harder to assess when the parent is seriously mentally ill, IMO (to the point that the child's functional level is surpassing the adult's, as in your example above). I don't think that applies equally to all mental illness. That's way too wide a net to cast. 

[FaithManor]

Their is certainly a line not sure where it is exactly but it seems like one of those things you know it when you see it. We know a family like that the 17 yr old does so much that she is often mistaken for mom. She actually got annoyed one day and told her mom, "when I go to college you will have to parent her."

I said something similar to my mom about my sister. Due to her own childhood and my sister being a surprise 14 years later, she eventually lapsed into doing to me what her mom did to her so from the age of two through five I entirely parented my sister. And it was not great. She came to only want me, obey me, listen to me.

 

She went to kindergarten the same day I left for college. She was inconsolable , stayed in the corner crying all day, would not go home with mom and eventually had to be dragged to the car, and they had to call me at the dorm to talk to her on the phone. I told them they had to take her to our paternal grandparents' home for a while because she had a tight relationship with them.

 

They didn't. Instead our male DNA donor paddled her until she lay limp across his lap and wouldn't move, cry, or open her eyes. Then she didn't speak for three days. This was my mother's wake up call! My response to my mother crying to me on the phone was, "Why don't you grow a spine, parent my sister, and knock him on his can? If you don't, I will call the cops!"

 

The thing was, I left for college when I was 16 so I could not get custody of her if mom had not womaned up. So I called my 20 year old brother and told him to be prepared.

 

She found her spine. But ya...I do not have any nice things to say about those extended relatives who did Jack squat making a mess of my mom's psyche. If they did not believe they could take in her and the two sibs, they could have intervened in the household in other ways to relieve her stress and burden.

 

The line is that helping is okay, parenting siblings is not.

Edited March 23, 2017 by FaithManor

[Janeway]

I guess I'm not sure where the line is. As a teen, if I had refused to do "my job" or had gotten long term sick or something, my mom would have found some way to make it all work. Just because she is someone who makes things work somehow. But it would have been insanely hard. Like, we already were on the edge of hunger and poverty and taking lots of church money and up to our ears in debt and so forth. If my mother had to add in childcare, it's possible the whole thing could have collapsed. If she'd had to add in more errands and cooking to her day, it's possible she wouldn't have been able to work or succeed in school and then where would we have all been? But I never felt like I was exploited. I still don't looking back. I'm okay with it... in part because I felt like it was just what we had to do.

 

Interestingly, you know who is still full of resentment? My brother. He never had chores or was parentified or anything. By the time he was that age, we had actual money for food and clothes and all that. I think he was too young to understand how precarious everything was. And while he's working to get past it, it has really stunted him at times in trying to get started in life.

I am starting to feel that kids who have a lot of responsibility and such appreciate life and family and things. And those who were just handed everything and didn't have much for responsibility tend to go around with this entitled attitude of nothing ever being enough.

[Excelsior! Academy]

While dh and I are not quiverfull, we do have lots of kiddos.  My children are required to pitch in because they live here, not because they live in a large family.  We have worked hard to give them appropriate responsibilities.  I am not a fan of the buddy system, with the exception of when we are out for a day trip.  When we are at the zoo or a large museum I do ask the children to team up with another sibling and stay together.  It's much easier to keep up with 4 sets of 2, then 9 individual people.  For chores the old adage "many hands make light work" rings true.  Even with lots of children, my kids don't have any more responsibility than I did as a child.  They wash dishes, keep their rooms clean, put away their own clothing, as well as another chore. One child is in charge of feeding the cat and changing her litter box, while another is in charge of the 1/2 bath. Everyone is expected to pick up after themselves.  I don't have time to put away everyone else's things!  Drivers pay for their own gas unless we are asking them to run errands for us, as well as keep the cars they drive clean.  Adults who are not in school contribute toward their insurance and pay for their own cell phones. Our oldest four children do happen to be girls and we do ask them to babysit once a week for date night, however we do offer to hire a babysitter if they want the night off.  On date nights dh and I order pizza for the kids and usually get a movie or two from the video store for them to watch.  The kids love it.  Our older children do not get paid to babysit, but dh and I do find ways to compensate them.  Just because someone has more than the average amount of children does not mean the kids are being overloaded or expected to be quasi-parents.  

Edited March 23, 2017 by Excelsior! Academy

[Excelsior! Academy]

I am starting to feel that kids who have a lot of responsibility and such appreciate life and family and things. And those who were just handed everything and didn't have much for responsibility tend to go around with this entitled attitude of nothing ever being enough.

 

Yes! Children need an appropriate amount of responsibility.  

[DesertBlossom]

I am starting to feel that kids who have a lot of responsibility and such appreciate life and family and things. And those who were just handed everything and didn't have much for responsibility tend to go around with this entitled attitude of nothing ever being enough.

 

 

Yes! Children need an appropriate amount of responsibility.  

 

A while back I read a book (don't remember the title) that said that kids who grew up in a culture where their chores benefited the entire family or community (like gathering firewood) turned out to be much more aware of, and sympathetic to the needs of those around them. Versus kids whose chores benefited only themselves (like cleaning their rooms). I thought that was really interesting.

 

Some of these stories are really heartbreaking. Helping out is one thing, but kids should not feel adult-sized weight and responsibilities so young. 

[Heathermomster]

I cannot go into details, but I was overburdened as hell growing up. My parents remain stupid and dysfunctional. I left the home at 18yo, and my escape route was the USN. DH and I were married 8 years before I would consider children.

 

I refuse to live near my mother. We visit maybe twice per year. My kids have no relationship with my parents and we prefer that. My parents have been divorced since 1979. My parents made terrible decisions. My mom overshares. She has no filter and will say anything in front of my kids. I haven't spoken to my dad in over 18 years. The bitter fruit of a toxic relationship is when your adult children want no relationship with you.

[Tanaqui]

Oh, god, Faithmanor. I hope your sister grew up okay. *hugs*

[LucyStoner]

They didn't. Instead our male DNA donor paddled her until she lay limp across his lap and wouldn't move, cry, or open her eyes. Then she didn't speak for three days. This was my mother's wake up call! My response to my mother crying to me on the phone was, "Why don't you grow a spine, parent my sister, and knock him on his can? If you don't, I will call the cops!"

 

 

My heart breaks for your sister.  No wonder you don't refer to him as "dad" here.  I'm so sorry.  

[Laura Corin]

How the parent sees things and how the child sees things can be very different.  And you just don't know where the resentments will lie forty years later.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Excelsior! Academy]

How the parent sees things and how the child sees things can be very different.  And you just don't know where the resentments will lie forty years later.

 

This is very true!  I've seen it with siblings in the same household.  All one can do is keep up dialog with one's children, and do the best one can with the knowledge one has.

[Bluegoat]

I guess I'm not sure where the line is. As a teen, if I had refused to do "my job" or had gotten long term sick or something, my mom would have found some way to make it all work. Just because she is someone who makes things work somehow. But it would have been insanely hard. Like, we already were on the edge of hunger and poverty and taking lots of church money and up to our ears in debt and so forth. If my mother had to add in childcare, it's possible the whole thing could have collapsed. If she'd had to add in more errands and cooking to her day, it's possible she wouldn't have been able to work or succeed in school and then where would we have all been? But I never felt like I was exploited. I still don't looking back. I'm okay with it... in part because I felt like it was just what we had to do.

 

Interestingly, you know who is still full of resentment? My brother. He never had chores or was parentified or anything. By the time he was that age, we had actual money for food and clothes and all that. I think he was too young to understand how precarious everything was. And while he's working to get past it, it has really stunted him at times in trying to get started in life.

 

 

It has been interesting to me to see in my own FOO that the older children--the ones who had many more responsibilities out of necessity, fewer resources and opportunities--all transitioned to adulthood quite smoothly. It is the younger kids who have struggled.

 

This is what I saw in my family members with the problem parents, too.  The elder two kids who took on the family responsibility have done well despite some serious disadvantages, whereas the younger to who were cared for by the others and had few responsibilities have had real troubles.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by 1234

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is what I saw in my family members with the problem parents, too.  The elder two kids who took on the family responsibility have done well despite some serious disadvantages, whereas the younger to who were cared for by the others and had few responsibilities have had real troubles.

 

I think there are different possible reasons for this.  Different personalities aside, you could argue that it's not only because they lacked responsibilities, but because they weren't properly cared for.  Is another sibling who is a child a proper substitute for a parent? 

[Farrar]

I get hung up on the whole "give them more responsibility!" thing sometimes. Like, it's definitely my own gut reaction from observing my own life and some close friends that being placed in that position of having a lot of responsibility - perhaps an inappropriate amount - was actually good for me and that not having enough demands on him was bad for my brother.

 

BUT... I don't think it's a magic formula. I've struggled with this a little with my own kids just because there is zero reason for them to have to do that kind of work. I don't work outside the home most of the time, dh has a good job that isn't that demanding... not like we're rolling in it or have perfect lives and all the time in the world for sure... but we have it pretty darn good. And trying to play off to my kids that they need to pitch in more is laughable. Like, there's no way that would fly in a real way. They'd know it was crap. Which is not to say that I don't ask them to clean and do chores and so forth. But if there's a magic formula, I don't think it's just "give them more responsibility." And when people do that, I think they miss the "needed" part of the equation.

 

For us, I've been trying (with varied levels of success) to give the kids their responsibility in other ways, like having to get themselves places on time on public transit or doing volunteer work. Mushroom managed a Destination Imagination Rising Stars (that's the non-competitive, K-2nd level) team. That was a really, really positive experience for him having to be the "mentor" and the "teacher" for a bunch of 6 yos. But it's hard to find those opportunities and get them right!

[Catwoman]

I don't think "responsibilities" has to equal "chores."

 

I think it's more important to involve kids in important family discussions and decisions and not only let them voice their opinions, but make sure they know that their opinions and ideas really matter.

 

Anyone can do chores. Kids need to learn how to think and how to solve real life problems, because pretty much anybody can quickly and easily learn how to do the laundry or sweep the floor, but it takes a lot longer to learn how to manage their money, and make financial, household, and business management decisions.

[MinivanMom]

I think there are different possible reasons for this.  Different personalities aside, you could argue that it's not only because they lacked responsibilities, but because they weren't properly cared for.  Is another sibling who is a child a proper substitute for a parent? 

 

I think this part of the equation gets missed in far too many of these stories. You just can't convince me that when there is a family emergency or neglect or trauma, that forcing kids to work more is some sort of magic solution. I survived my childhood, but it was not anything that anyone should try to replicate.

 

I am happy to say that for kids in normal, healthy families, it is good for them to have age-appropriate responsibilities and freedoms. Some of those can (and probably should) involve working alongside their parents to keep the household running. And it is probably fine for most kids to temporarily take on additional responsibilities in times of need as long as they have sufficient emotional support to go along with it.

Edited April 3, 2017 by MinivanMom

[amy g.]

I think part of the difference is what exactly the parent is doing that makes them unable to fulfill their own responsibilities. I think I could forgive a parent who was working for the good of the family more than one who is dumping on older kids so she can get drunk and sleep around which was the case in my family of origin.

 

When my parents got a divorce, they went through their second adolescence. They were just over being parents. My sister and I were left alone, shipped off to relatives for months at a time and just neglected so that our mom could party.

 

That would have been bad enough, but then she got with an abusive, alcoholic pervert and couldn't bother to use protection.

 

Someone had to raise that kid. Now, the kid is an adult, and they will never let him be healthy or happy. His job is to care for them, and if he ever tries to have a life of his own, they suck him back into their abuse.

 

I know families where older adult daughters can't go anywhere, can't get a job, can't go to college, can't visit a friend...ever because they have to raise siblings and work for free at the family business. The parents are off doing things that are more fun than the drudgery of raising a family. It is truly evil.

[TravelingChris]

My father died when I was 13 and a month after my mom started working.  My mom became depressed, I had a tough year, my 3 year younger sister started doing badly in school. My older brother was in college but lived at home.  The situation was very tough. My brother decided incorrectly that he was in charge of a lot of things. I rebelled and we had fights where I was on the losing end. Our pension and/or our social security payments were delayed months in starting and I was severely stressed by that.  We went from a fairly comfortable middle class life to be frantic about when our checks would start.  Since my dad died in early February, he hadn't done the taxes,  I decided to help in that way and did them and continued doing them until my mom died 10 years later.  I had always liked cooking and also did a lot of the dinners especially as time went on.  The situation with my sister became worse as time went on too.  She made some inappropriate friends when she got into middle school.  She ended up dropping out of high school when I went off to college.  I did not parent her.  I did advise my mother but she did not take my advice.  Even when she was in early high school, I knew something was seriously wrong.  My mom took her to some idiot psychologist who said that her problems were all because my brothr and i had teased her when she was young.  (Did we tease a bit, yes.  Did we play with her nicely most of the time, yes)  It later turned out after many wrong turns including the dropping out and legal problems, that she was bipolar.  Why that moronic counselor didn't see it,, I don't know.  But yes, I became a very responsible person and she didn't.  But I never considered myself parenting her and she was 10 when he died and back then, she was considered old enough to walk home alone or with friends and be home until I came home.  I also started to work then as a babysitter but not for her.

 

As to my house,  I have chronic illnesses.  Did my kids help with the house-yes.  More than most other kids who had chores-no, though yes for my youngest child but basically sharing with cooking meals and getting groceries sometimes.  Not all the meals and not all the groceries. But if she was cooking, she decided what we were having.  We also never had her not go to Scout camp or miss a Church youth group trip or anything like that to help me.  During her high school, we were not only dealing with a much worse health situation for me (which has actually gotten a lot better lately)  but her sister was seriously ill and needed help too.  So I might be helping her sister and she would be cooking or she would help her sister and I would cook.  We are a very close-knit family and we all help each other in whatever way we can.  

[Bluegoat]

I think there are different possible reasons for this.  Different personalities aside, you could argue that it's not only because they lacked responsibilities, but because they weren't properly cared for.  Is another sibling who is a child a proper substitute for a parent? 

 

Not proper, but my sense isn't that that was really the issue - after all, the older two  were largely left to their own devices.

 

What seems to be the pattern with them, and I've seen it with some other people as well, is that the younger two expect someone else to step in and save them, always.

 

Personality of course is always a factor, so that can influence any pattern.

 

Did you ever read The Glass Castle?  There was a similar thing there - the older kids had to fend for themselves, though they stuck together, and they turned out to be very much do-ers.  The youngest was protected and cared for by the siblings and neighbours, and just didn't ever take responsibility for herself. 

 

I remember a few years ago hearing a Cree fellow on tv talking about change in damanged communities, overcoming systemic problems.  He said that while it's important for government to do their part (clean water, access to education) ultimatly communities and individuals have to step up and take responsibility for acting, get past the negative things that can become endemic in opressed or neglected cultures.  

 

I think this is alo true for individuals.  People who have advantages can often get by being passive, which is a really great thing if you are like me and pretty retiring by nature.  But if you have disadvantages, maybe internal as well as the externalities, you are going to have to be more active to get around that.  If you are lucky and somehow are in a position to overcome an externality, you are likely still going to have to take action on that.

 

I think what can happen is that the kids that are put in the position of having to take care of themselves are more likely to have a sense of agency - that they can in fact make a choice that will improve their lot or that working may bring a reward - even just the sense that they have to do something.  When a chance comes, they will take it.  But kids that have had a more passive stance imposed or even rewarded, don't have that experience to draw on.

[maize]

I agree that a sense of agency--of having the ability to act for oneself to make things happen/improve a situation/deal with a problem--is important to healthy human development.

 

Anything that leads to a sense of personal helplessness stunts development.

 

And yes, in some cases having too much done for oneself contributes to a sense of helplessness. So does lack of opportunity or empowerment to make changes and be pro-active.

Edited March 24, 2017 by maize

[LMV]

Our kids currently run the age gamut from one to almost thirty two. Our two eldest are boys and were legal adults with their own children before some of their younger sisters were born. Our kids really are each other's greatest fans and DH and I love that our kids have each other. For this reason, and many other reasons, we work very hard to ensure that our kids have a sibling relationship and that older siblings are not put into a parenting position.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

Did you ever read The Glass Castle?  There was a similar thing there - the older kids had to fend for themselves, though they stuck together, and they turned out to be very much do-ers.  The youngest was protected and cared for by the siblings and neighbours, and just didn't ever take responsibility for herself. 

 

*snip*

 

Yes, but the older siblings in The Glass Castle also had greater stability and support in their early childhood. Yes, there was chaos and frequent moves and s*xual abuse, but I think the author conveyed the image of a close and loving (if unconventional) family. The author knew that her father loved her. There were clearly strong attachment bonds there.

 

So, what I saw in the story wasn't just siblings and neighbors taking care of littlest sister so that she didn't ever take responsibility for herself (though that may be a piece of the puzzle). What I saw was a little girl without a secure attachment to her parents. Siblings were trying to fill the gap, but they were never a secure, stable replacement. Various neighbors and friends were trying to fill the gap, but they were never a replacement. At the end of the book, I remember thinking, "This little one would have been better off in a permanent foster care placement." Just from the viewpoint of safety, stability, and establishing attachment.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, but the older siblings in The Glass Castle also had greater stability and support in their early childhood. Yes, there was chaos and frequent moves and s*xual abuse, but I think the author conveyed the image of a close and loving (if unconventional) family. The author knew that her father loved her. There were clearly strong attachment bonds there.

 

So, what I saw in the story wasn't just siblings and neighbors taking care of littlest sister so that she didn't ever take responsibility for herself (though that may be a piece of the puzzle). What I saw was a little girl without a secure attachment to her parents. Siblings were trying to fill the gap, but they were never a secure, stable replacement. Various neighbors and friends were trying to fill the gap, but they were never a replacement. At the end of the book, I remember thinking, "This little one would have been better off in a permanent foster care placement." Just from the viewpoint of safety, stability, and establishing attachment.

 

Yes, that's true, the parents were worse over time.  And there was an attachment with the elder kids, the break that happened was probably worse than never forming an attachment at all.

 

However, I do still think having a chance to make decisions that have effect is important.  If that doesn't happen, it's harder to do it as an adult.  Also, being a caregiver/contributor for others, rather than just a receiver.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree that a sense of agency--of having the ability to act for oneself to make things happen/improve a situation/deal with a problem--is important to healthy human development.

 

Anything that leads to a sense of personal helplessness stunts development.

 

And yes, in some cases having too much done for oneself contributes to a sense of helplessness. So does lack of opportunity or empowerment to make changes and be pro-active.

 

ALTHOUGH....I have seen in some people like this, that the helplessness is often a tactic to get what they want/need.  They manipulate others to do stuff for them because they have found that acting helpless works.  Not saying they are 100% aware of all of that, but they aren't in fact necessarily THAT helpless.  There is more than one way to get something done.  Do it yourself or get others to do it. 

[Bluegoat]

ALTHOUGH....I have seen in some people like this, that the helplessness is often a tactic to get what they want/need.  They manipulate others to do stuff for them because they have found that acting helpless works.  Not saying they are 100% aware of all of that, but they aren't in fact necessarily THAT helpless.  There is more than one way to get something done.  Do it yourself or get others to do it. 

 

I think that actually is part of that kind of syndrome.  But it doesn't tend to healthy or very successful functioning.

[unsinkable]

 

 

This is a sensitive topic for our family. I am severely mentally ill and at times barely functional. During certain bad weeks, my children take on a LOT of responsibility. Other weeks, I take back everything I can aside from the normal childhood chores. And unfortunately, while I try to avoid it at all costs, parent care comes up as well. Not because I ask for help, but because my kids love me and want to help me and feel helpless if they can't assist. I can't expect them to help me, but I can't refuse to let them either, it helps them feel in control of a sometimes powerless and frightening situation. I hope they don't resent me in years to come, I hope I show enough appreciation and keep the lines clear enough. I emphasise to eldest that it's not her responsibility to make me feel better emotionally, that if she would like to help she can do x, y and z but that if she doesn't that's ok and not her responsibility. And I try to make the extra jobs things they like doing and keep my energy for the things everyone hates. It's hard though.... it's a balance and I'm always worried about asking too much.

abba,I'm really sorry for your struggles.

 

 

It is with the best of intentions that i say:

 

I hope you're getting the help you need to get healthy and reduce/limit the times you are barely functional. I hope your DH is doing all he can to help you and reduce what your kids have to do. They are so little, based on your signature, at 6, 4 and 2 years old.

 

I know moms all take a sick day, and kids try to help out to a level appropriate to their age. But based on what you've written, it seems more intense. And one of the reasons I am addressing this is that in another thread, you wrote that you want more children.

 

This thread is about "parentified" behavior, and the best ways to avoid it becoming toxic. I am saying this bc I feel like it'd be wrong not to say anything to someone who says: *things are bad, and it worries me that it is impacting my kids, and I want more kids.*

 

I know I have no say in what you do or how many kids you have. I am saying because I am worried about you and the kids you have now based on what have already written.

 

I wish the best for you and your family.

Edited March 27, 2017 by unsinkable

[abba12]

abba,I'm really sorry for your struggles.

 

 

It is with the best of intentions that i say:

 

I hope you're getting the help you need to get healthy and reduce/limit the times you are barely functional. I hope your DH is doing all he can to help you and reduce what your kids have to do. They are so little, based on your signature, at 6, 4 and 2 years old.

 

I know moms all take a sick day, and kids try to help out to a level appropriate to their age. But based on what you've written, it seems more intense. And one of the reasons I am addressing this is that in another thread, you wrote that you want more children.

 

This thread is about "parentified" behavior, and the best ways to avoid it becoming toxic. I am saying this bc I feel like it'd be wrong not to say anything to someone who says: *things are bad, and it worries me that it is impacting my kids, and I want more kids.*

 

I know I have no say in what you do or how many kids you have. I am saying because I am worried about you and the kids you have now based on what have already written.

 

I wish the best for you and your family.

 

Thank you for your concern. I have C-PTSD along with assorted related issues, and due to the nature and severity of the trauma I have had multiple medical opinions that I will never be 'normal' or fully recover, all I can strive for is incremental improvements, which I do daily. If you've read my posts on other threads then you have also read that I have a very supportive husband who only works 3 days a week, in part due to his own disability (which does not effect the kids or his ability to parent, only his ability to do hard physical work 5 days a week) and in part to care for me as 3 days alone is about my limit. His hours are also 6-2:30 so he is home before the tired and cranky pre-dinner hours, and I sleep through his first couple of hours away from home. None of this arrangement is by accident. I also have a very close friend who, now and for the past 10 years, has invested serious hours into my care, anywhere from 5-20 hours of one-on-one care each week. We also have someone come in to do house cleaning as a necessity in our budget, to help prevent triggers and to free up time for the kids since my health takes up time.  And the one time it all fell apart 4 years ago and I became a genuine danger to my kids, I took myself to the doctor and was honest, knowing he would follow up with CPS. Hardest thing I've ever done as a parent, dobbing myself in knowing they could swoop in and take the kids away from me altogether if they wanted to. But I submitted to all their requirements, the weekly social worker and forced 'support playgroup' and the hospitalisations and the not being alone with the kids for 6 months. By the end of it, I had the approval from child services themselves that our family situation was good, and that was 4 years ago, when I was even worse than now and with younger, more helpless kids. 

 

I know I don't need to justify our situation to anyone, but I have nothing to hide, and maybe talking will help me work through some of the guilt in my head right now anyway, guilt that prompted my initial post in the first place. 

 

I would hope that my complete openness on here is an indication of my complete openness in person as well. There are half a dozen people who know the details of our situation, and who I trust would step in if things became truly problematic. The children also know who they are and that they may talk to them at any time about anything that concerns them about me and my issues if they, for whatever reason, do not feel safe talking to me. Right now these people acknowledge that my children have a few extra strains on their lives, but otherwise have quite privileged and free childhoods which balance out a lot of the stressors. There are some differences in their lives, and they're certainly more mature than their peers (though, no moreso than our grandparents would have been in their childhoods) but they do not show signs of stress or fear, they are happy, creative, emotive kids. 

 

To be clear, the below is worst-case scenario bad spells that I haven't anticipated or planned for. I am never unsupervised during my anniversary week and we have extra support for the kids in the week or two leading up to it, so the below scenarios only happen maybe a dozen or so other days a year. During bad spells, the kids take care of themselves. I have fostered as much independence as possible as young as possible, more than I might otherwise do if I were a healthy parent. The result is that it is less Eldest taking care of her sisters, and more all three kids working together to take care of themselves. Sometimes if I am unwell Eldest makes lunch for everyone (no heat source, she pulls items from fridge and pantry). Eldest and Middle sometimes have to be responsible for Youngest while I am not mentally alert, not ideal, but, the reality of our lives. Having said that, our house is child safe, we have a child safe play room they can be in for hours playing without worry, and due to the early fostering of independence, Youngest (almost 3 now) is quite responsible when she wants to be. She is not the terrible two getting into everything, the worst she will do is empty a package of flour from the pantry or throw shoes everywhere, but there's no crazy life threatening antics happening here as with some toddlers I've heard of, she knows to be careful with glass and not to ever touch certain shelves and cupboards, etc, and harmless messes can be cleaned. Eldest also has pre-discussed backup plans of what to do if Youngest is in a bad mood during a crisis, including TV shows, and phone numbers if daddy needs to come home or the above mentioned close friend needs to be contacted. Eldest sometimes has to get Youngest dressed or cleaned up, or corral them into cleaning up and doing chores, and if I am in crisis mode for more than a few days sometimes they end up with more chores than usual to try keep up (none of us cope well in a messy house, the kids get anxious in clutter). Sometimes when I am unstable I use our code word, or exhibit certain recognised behaviours, and all three kids know that code word or behaviour means go down the other end of the house to the playroom, shut the door, and don't come near me unless there's an emergency, so no responsibility but some stress. Eldest also tries to take on helping me, trying to ground me or care for me when I am unwell, and all three kids are very alert to my needs, but I frequently remind them that my health is not their responsibility and I appreciate their loving concern but I don't expect them to make me better and it's not their fault I am unwell. Oh, and they have to be aware of some of my issues, for example if I am yelling and angry it actually means I'm very scared or triggered, and that if I am actually angry I will talk calmly and seriously, never yell, something they've all internalised pretty well and are rarely upset when I get angry/scared now. Or, knowing not to interrupt me during certain tasks that I don't cope well with being pulled from unless it's an emergency. 

 

Having said that, when I am doing ok-ish, their lives are pretty normal and average aside from the still present trigger stuff. We do school, they have normal kid chores, and they know the relevant-to-them trigger issues well enough that they don't come up as an issue. Maybe they pick up one of the things from the list above, maybe I have a bad flashback and they spend an hour in the playroom or Eldest pulls out lunch while I go to my bedroom for an hour. But nothing unmanageable or unreasonable in the opinions of those who supervise and care for me. And when I am doing well, I make up for the bad by putting everything else on hold. We often don't school during good weeks actually, because I spend that time on unit studies and games and cuddles, craft and long conversations. We talk a lot about my health so it's never some big scary unknown thing, but rather a tangible medical issue they can deal with. And when i'm doing badly we make extra time for cuddles, and daddy does special things on those evenings and weekends. We are a very active family, spontaneous project and late night beach trips, lots of family time. Daddy being home 4 days a week instead of two days also helps a lot, I work two of the four days daddy is home, and they get to deal primarily with him those days. 

 

Regarding more kids, the kids don't trigger me, the nature of my health issues means that there's no anxiety that more kids would add to, and the nature of the level of care and support I have means that I have a far lower stress load than most mothers of 3+ kids, due to the extra help and DHs part time workweek. More children is unlikely to have any negative effect on my health. On the other hand, all I ever wanted to be was a mother. Having kids stabilised me, grounded me, made me feel I had a reason to live again. I'm happy, and that's a big deal. It gives me someone to focus on outside of my head. And maybe it's not modest to say, but, outside of the mental health issues I do believe I am a good mother. I love them more than words can possibly convey, and I would love more, because this big, happy, noisy, crazy family is all my impossible dreams come true and there's nothing else I would rather do. DH was one of 8, I was one of 5, so I know what we're getting ourselves into but it's what we both dreamed about as children, and the secret dream I held onto long after it seemed I would never be able to live a 'normal' life, what I daydreamed about during long boring days locked away. I guess maybe those sound like selfish reasons, I don't mean them to be. These little lives and all their differences and subtleties are amazing to watch and I am privileged to be a part of them. I love helping to guide them, and seeing them grow and helping them do whatever they want to do. Eldest found her first passion this past couple of months, and seeing her talent, and self motivation and drive once she found something she really cared about has been the most indescribably amazing thing I've ever seen. I never got that opportunity. I want it for them. This is what I feel I was given a second chance for. Not many people from my background get second chances, I wont waste mine. 

 

This thread was talking about a certain trait or set of actions that hits home to me, it's one of my biggest insecurities. But like any insecurity or thing we are self conscious of, I think we judge ourselves far more harshly than others would judge us. I feel a lot of guilt and shame for every little thing I can't give my kids, or that I need from them that other parents don't, or anything at all. But as I write all this down in this post, I'm reminded how far I've come, and how many safeguards and plans we have in place. And sure, most kids don't need emergency plans and I feel guilty that mine do, but, maybe our situation isn't as horrible as I sometimes feel it is. This post has reminded me how well we cope and how well the kids are doing despite any issues I might have. Maybe it is that bad to you, maybe I'll get a bunch of concerned people replying to this saying the kids need to be saved from my problems. But, I do have multiple people including at various points therapists looking in on this and saying we are doing well for the circumstances, and maybe it's not perfect, but what family is. We make up for the bad by really living in the good, my kids have learned hard lessons but they've also learned what's important, and while they do have some extra responsibilities, during those they feel needed, important, and appreciated. And 90% of the time, they are normal kids. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by abba12

[Anne in CA]

My mother had severe anxiety issues that she never would have admitted to a physician, so I am proud of you for talking to a doctor. But... My mother always believed that her issues did not really affect me. They did. Profoundly. She really believed herself to be a good mother. She was not a bad mother at all when she was feeling well. She was intelligent and shared many good things with me. But she was not a good mother, she was delusional in that regard. If everything you say is true, there is still 10% of the time that needs accounting for. That is a lot. A lot. As an oldest child, be careful about declaring yourself a good mother. It's something that the best mothers never do. 

[abba12]

My mother had severe anxiety issues that she never would have admitted to a physician, so I am proud of you for talking to a doctor. But... My mother always believed that her issues did not really affect me. They did. Profoundly. She really believed herself to be a good mother. She was not a bad mother at all when she was feeling well. She was intelligent and shared many good things with me. But she was not a good mother, she was delusional in that regard. If everything you say is true, there is still 10% of the time that needs accounting for. That is a lot. A lot. As an oldest child, be careful about declaring yourself a good mother. It's something that the best mothers never do. 

 

The best mothers rarely need to justify their ability to parent. They might say it more if they had need to.

 

I never said the issues didn't effect them. Quite the opposite, I'm aware that my issues WILL effect them and have things in place, support, people they can talk to, supervision during bad times, plans and resources and constant reassurance, an open communication and full acknowledgement of how I effect them. There isn't much more I could do short of removing myself from their lives. What would you suggest the answer is? Yeah 10% of the time they're dealing with stuff most kids don't have to deal with, but so do lots of kids, for all sorts of reasons, and I am not ignorant to the effects it has on them, and neither are the others who are involved in my care. I have accounted for that 10% and put everything I possibly can in place, short of removing myself as mother, to mitigate the effect of that 10%. I'm also constantly getting better, I've never gotten worse throughout my healing, with the exception of 4 years ago, after which I launched forward in progress as a direct result of the backslide. 

 

Thank you for your concern for my children. 

[eternalsummer]

Many people choose to add to their families in circumstances other people would consider less than ideal; I remember my mom was horrified (horrified!) when I got pregnant while DH was temporarily out of work.  In fact, she gave me that Glass House book as a symbol of I guess what she thought we were headed for?  I don't know, it was stupid.  But there are millions of women throughout the world who willingly have babies in much more difficult economic circumstances, because they know they can make it work to a standard commensurate with their environment (let's leave the issue of unwilling childbearing aside for now).  There are people much better off than my mother who would have been horrified when she had me and my sister without starting a college savings account at birth (or knowing how she would ever afford one, which she never did).

 

However, I think deliberately bringing more children into an environment where the oldest, who is just 6, is already intermittently responsible for the care of two younger siblings, including taking them to a safe room semi-regularly in times of distress and (presumably) watching them there and being responsible for getting more help in case of an emergency, is irresponsible.  It is not irresponsible because of the instability of the life of the new baby, but because adding another baby to the burden already on the oldest when you acknowledge that such a burden is pretty unnatural just because children and babies make you happy is, imo, somewhat selfish.  

 

And I say this as someone who thinks oldest children can and should contribute significantly to the running of the household, and that less-than-ideal economic conditions are still a fine environment for kids.

 

But the responsibility for keeping younger siblings safe from their mother when you are still in primary school, and then proposing to add more of these younger siblings voluntarily - that's a bit much.  

 

 

[eternalsummer]

I guess that for me, work is different from emotional and existential responsibility.  Having my 11 year old do the dishes and sweep (or even if she had to do the dishes, sweep, mop, laundry, feed the toddler, tend the garden, and make lunch) is not much of an aberration historically.  Having that same 11 year old, much less a significantly younger child, be responsible for the existential safety of the kids and emotional stability of their mother (even partially) is a blurring of roles and aberrant, even compared to societies where young children do much more labor.

[abba12]

 already intermittently responsible for the care of two younger siblings, including taking them to a safe room semi-regularly in times of distress and (presumably) watching them there and being responsible for getting more help in case of an emergency, is irresponsible. 

 

I didn't realise my kids saying 'oh, mummy isn't feeling well, we need to go play down the other end until she feels better' was such a massive responsibility, let alone teaching her how to use a phone in case of emergencies. So, your kids don't learn how to call their father in emergencies until they're teenagers? I've never gotten to the point of requiring that phone call to be made, it's just part of our plans so that she feels safe and in control of any situation that occurs, it's independence.

 

And there's no 'watching them there', it's a child-safe room, they go, they play just like they play every day, only difference is this time they don't have the option to come colour at the dining table or play outside until I'm better. They can be down there playing happily for hours on good days without an issue. This is just a matter of 'you need to play here for an hour' instead of 'you have the option to play here'. Little else changes. The chance of a child getting seriously hurt in that room is very slim... it's only ever happened once (on a good day) and in that case, Eldest knows I am likely to be able to force myself into stability for long enough to deal with the emergency (at later harm to myself, but obviously in that instance it's necessary). 

 

be responsible for the existential safety of the kids and emotional stability of their mother (even partially) is a blurring of roles and aberrant, even compared to societies where young children do much more labor.

 

Child safe house, child safe room... it's not like they're off lighting matches. Unless I'm having a serious episode (20 mins max) I am still able to hear them and respond to emergencies, and they are safely contained in a room full of toys and books and soft things and fun, and at almost no risk of harm. 

 

As for emotional stability, I made pretty clear I didn't want or ask for that and she is never required to do it, so there's no responsibility there. She chooses to try help when she feels capable (and chooses not to when she does not) because she cares for me and wants to, but it is never ever expected and that fact has been emphasised frequently. 

 

 

I responded because it helped me to work through this and because I hoped to offer some encouragement to the lurkers I know are reading but not responding publicly. I don't need to justify the situation though, I am choosing to. Fact is, if I were worried I would be turning to the people who have spent time in my home, people who have seen some of my episodes, people who actually know the situation, rather than people who seem to know exactly what is happening based off a few online posts. I've spoken to therapists about this situation, I have people in my home frequently who have seen this play out, and these discussions have been had. Things often sound a lot worse described than they actually are in that moment. People who have seen these things and actually been there day to day believe our situation, in action, is fairly ok all things considered. Is it perfect? Of course not, but neither are a whole lot of other families situations. Should only perfect people have kids?: 

[maize]

Abba12 it sounds to me like you are exhibiting a high level of awareness of the realities of your situation and are accounting for them adequately. I am not sure why others are feeling qualified to judge your choices.

 

A parent with a mental health struggle who is aware of and accepting and engages in treatment for those issues is in my opinion ahead of the game compared to a great many parents. We all have weaknesses and handicaps, some more obvious and severe than others but none of us is capable of providing a perfect life for a child.

 

A parent who is, for example, blind and deaf faces some pretty steep challenges in caring for children, and their children are necessarily going to have to accommodate from an early age for some parental handicaps. Does this mean they should not have children or should at most limit themselves to one or two?

 

I'm also befuddled by the poster who claims that the best mothers never declare themselves to be good mothers. Why ever not? Do the best lawyers or doctors or mechanics never acknowledge that they are good at what they do? Is poor self-evaluation a necessary trait of being a good parent? I find that strange. If a person is claiming to be perfect and have no weaknesses then yes I think they have a problem, but I absolutely believe that many good mothers can and do see themselves as such. A tendency to belittle oneself is not IMO a superior trait.

Edited March 27, 2017 by maize

[Tanaqui]

And I'm just upvoting everybody on all sides of this convo! Mostly because people are being well-thought-out than because I know who I agree with.

 

I'm also befuddled by the poster who claims that the best mothers never declare themselves to be good mothers. Why ever not? Do the best lawyers or doctors or mechanics never acknowledge that they are good at what they do?

 

Well, I can see where they're coming from here. There's a certain sort of bad parent that spends a lot of time going "I'm a good mother, I sacrificed so much, I took care of my kids!" and you're sitting there thinking "No, you didn't, and anyway, you're SUPPOSED to take care of your kids! That's the bare minimum!"

 

For that matter, I'd be a bit weirded out if my lawyer, doctor, or mechanic spent a lot of time saying "I'm the best, and I'm so good at my job". I don't need their opinion on how good they are, I need their opinion on my situation! Instead of "Don't worry, we'll get through this because I AM TEH BESTEST!" how about "Okay, so this is a tricky situation, but I recommend this procedure for this reason. Yes, by all means, get a second opinion! I want you to feel comfortable with your decision!" Less bravado, more work.

[maize]

And I'm just upvoting everybody on all sides of this convo! Mostly because people are being well-thought-out than because I know who I agree with.

 

 

Well, I can see where they're coming from here. There's a certain sort of bad parent that spends a lot of time going "I'm a good mother, I sacrificed so much, I took care of my kids!" and you're sitting there thinking "No, you didn't, and anyway, you're SUPPOSED to take care of your kids! That's the bare minimum!"

 

For that matter, I'd be a bit weirded out if my lawyer, doctor, or mechanic spent a lot of time saying "I'm the best, and I'm so good at my job". I don't need their opinion on how good they are, I need their opinion on my situation! Instead of "Don't worry, we'll get through this because I AM TEH BESTEST!" how about "Okay, so this is a tricky situation, but I recommend this procedure for this reason. Yes, by all means, get a second opinion! I want you to feel comfortable with your decision!" Less bravado, more work.

There is a lot of space though between constantly talking oneself up and NEVER saying one is good at something. The poster I referenced said that the best mothers never say they are good mothers--it was the never bit that seemed odd to me. As if it is more righteous/good/honorable/correct to not see and recognize and verbally acknowledge you do something well?

 

Really, someone who is hard working and diligent and, yes, good at what they do usually knows it. I think there are times when it is appropriate to acknowledge it. In any profession or calling, including that of motherhood.

 

We have a culture of putting motherhood up on a pedestal with impossible perfection as the goal and belittlement of one's own efforts as a norm. I do not find that healthy.

[Anne in CA]

I didn't realise my kids saying 'oh, mummy isn't feeling well, we need to go play down the other end until she feels better' was such a massive responsibility, let alone teaching her how to use a phone in case of emergencies. So, your kids don't learn how to call their father in emergencies until they're teenagers? I've never gotten to the point of requiring that phone call to be made, it's just part of our plans so that she feels safe and in control of any situation that occurs, it's independence.

 

And there's no 'watching them there', it's a child-safe room, they go, they play just like they play every day, only difference is this time they don't have the option to come colour at the dining table or play outside until I'm better. They can be down there playing happily for hours on good days without an issue. This is just a matter of 'you need to play here for an hour' instead of 'you have the option to play here'. Little else changes. The chance of a child getting seriously hurt in that room is very slim... it's only ever happened once (on a good day) and in that case, Eldest knows I am likely to be able to force myself into stability for long enough to deal with the emergency (at later harm to myself, but obviously in that instance it's necessary). 

 

 

Child safe house, child safe room... it's not like they're off lighting matches. Unless I'm having a serious episode (20 mins max) I am still able to hear them and respond to emergencies, and they are safely contained in a room full of toys and books and soft things and fun, and at almost no risk of harm. 

 

As for emotional stability, I made pretty clear I didn't want or ask for that and she is never required to do it, so there's no responsibility there. She chooses to try help when she feels capable (and chooses not to when she does not) because she cares for me and wants to, but it is never ever expected and that fact has been emphasised frequently. 

 

 

I responded because it helped me to work through this and because I hoped to offer some encouragement to the lurkers I know are reading but not responding publicly. I don't need to justify the situation though, I am choosing to. Fact is, if I were worried I would be turning to the people who have spent time in my home, people who have seen some of my episodes, people who actually know the situation, rather than people who seem to know exactly what is happening based off a few online posts. I've spoken to therapists about this situation, I have people in my home frequently who have seen this play out, and these discussions have been had. Things often sound a lot worse described than they actually are in that moment. People who have seen these things and actually been there day to day believe our situation, in action, is fairly ok all things considered. Is it perfect? Of course not, but neither are a whole lot of other families situations. Should only perfect people have kids?: 

I do think that it sounds like you are doing everything as well as you can. I just hope you don't add more kids to this mix. That was the direction I was going last night. I was pretty tired. You sound very responsible. But having more children would not be responsible in this situation. IMO. My step dd's real mother had five children and she probably has Borderline Personality Disorder (which it does not sound like you have but it is a hindrance to parenting).  We had custody of step dd (she is now 28) and I raised her. The burden placed on her oldest child was awful. He is a mess now at thirty. 

 

I think your children sound like they are probably just fine. I just hope you do not add more for the sake of your oldest, that is all. Even though you have a lot of support now things could change and it would be very hard for everyone.

[maize]

I do think that it sounds like you are doing everything as well as you can. I just hope you don't add more kids to this mix. That was the direction I was going last night. I was pretty tired. You sound very responsible. But having more children would not be responsible in this situation. IMO. My step dd's real mother had five children and she probably has Borderline Personality Disorder (which it does not sound like you have but it is a hindrance to parenting).  We had custody of step dd (she is now 28) and I raised her. The burden placed on her oldest child was awful. He is a mess now at thirty. 

 

I think your children sound like they are probably just fine. I just hope you do not add more for the sake of your oldest, that is all. Even though you have a lot of support now things could change and it would be very hard for everyone.

 

 

I am seeing a lot of bias in this thread against mental illness. I agree that undiagnosed, unacknowledged, and untreated mental illness has horrific consequences in the lives of many people. Unfortunately, bias and stigma help to perpetuate the tendency of people not to seek help as well as the accessibility of help for mental health issues.

 

We have a mom in this thread who suffers from a mental health condition that is episodic in nature. She has proactively taken many steps to provide for the safety of her children during these episodes, which make up a small portion of her/their life. To me this seems not significantly different from a mother who suffers from, say, periodic migraines that incapacitate her and and require her children to fend for themselves at times. I actually doubt there are many migraine sufferers out there who have prepared their children so well for getting through episodes. 

 

Children can be taught to understand such episodes of illness and to cope with them. It sounds like these children and their mother are both doing well.

[Tanaqui]

There is a lot of space though between constantly talking oneself up and NEVER saying one is good at something. The poster I referenced said that the best mothers never say they are good mothers--it was the never bit that seemed odd to me. As if it is more righteous/good/honorable/correct to not see and recognize and verbally acknowledge you do something well?

 

But realistically speaking, when does it come up in conversation? I can't even imagine having to spell out "I'm a good mother" (or a good doctor, or a good dog walker, or a good listener, or a good whatever-er) unless I'm directly fending off an accusation that I'm a bad one, or perhaps accusing somebody else of being a bad one. ("I'm a good mother, which is how I know that leaving your preschooler unattended at the side of a shark-infested diving pool is a really bad idea!")

 

I'm not thinking you shouldn't acknowledge your parenting chops if it comes up, but... when is this going to happen?

 

I am seeing a lot of bias in this thread against mental illness. I agree that undiagnosed, unacknowledged, and untreated mental illness has horrific consequences in the lives of many people. Unfortunately, bias and stigma help to perpetuate the tendency of people not to seek help as well as the accessibility of help for mental health issues.

 

This cannot be said often enough, or loudly enough.

 

And it's worth noting that some recent studies have shown that most adults suffer from at least one bout of mental illness in their lives. It's not necessarily a chronic condition, but most of us do go through clinically significant depression and/or anxiety at least once. (Or substance abuse, that's the third most common mental illness.) We can't tell all those people to not have kids.

[Anne in CA]

But realistically speaking, when does it come up in conversation? I can't even imagine having to spell out "I'm a good mother" (or a good doctor, or a good dog walker, or a good listener, or a good whatever-er) unless I'm directly fending off an accusation that I'm a bad one, or perhaps accusing somebody else of being a bad one. ("I'm a good mother, which is how I know that leaving your preschooler unattended at the side of a shark-infested diving pool is a really bad idea!")

 

I'm not thinking you shouldn't acknowledge your parenting chops if it comes up, but... when is this going to happen?

 

 

This cannot be said often enough, or loudly enough.

 

And it's worth noting that some recent studies have shown that most adults suffer from at least one bout of mental illness in their lives. It's not necessarily a chronic condition, but most of us do go through clinically significant depression and/or anxiety at least once. (Or substance abuse, that's the third most common mental illness.) We can't tell all those people to not have kids.

Honestly, when I said that the best mothers don't say they are good mothers I was very tired and had just cleaned up a huge mess because my dishwasher backed up two inches of water over my whole restaurant. I look back at that and think it was a silly thing to say, actually. I was thinking of a couple of terrible mothers (by anyone's standards) who are always saying what great moms they are. The poster I was talking to was not like those women at all. I was just thinking of too many people when I was writing the post.

 

I am not trying to tell anyone how many children they should have, I am simply saying that the burden placed on an oldest child can be really unfair in the case of mental illness and of course, substance abuse. And the bigger problem is that the mentally ill person and the people closest to them are not in a position of objectivity. My grandmother and my aunt believed my mom to be a wonderful mom, but they loved her so much and had no objectivity. My mom always fed us healthy food, she read us classic literature, she limited our television watching and other good things but she was a hoarder and once screamed at me for a long time for throwing away a phone bill that was two years old. She also yelled at me for throwing away expired coupons. I was trying to make the house presentable to have friends over, but she would never let that happen. Imagine a whole childhood where you never have friends spend the night. Not cool. It limited me socially so much. 

 

As an oldest child I love my youngest brother dearly. But taking care of him as much as I did robbed me of a big chunk of my childhood. I did not get huge parts of my development which made my adult life much more difficult than it needed to be. I can't stop anyone from having as many kids as they want, but when an oldest child has to give up normal development they are going to be rightfully resentful. I never got to play sports except one year in junior high because practice was before school so my dad got up early and took me. I never played in little league or did girl scouts or any childhood activities because they caused my mom too much anxiety. It is still sad to me many normal things that I NEVER got to do. 

 

I don't think I am prejudiced against people with mental illness having children, but I am realistic. There is a big difference between someone who has a couple of years of depression and takes some Wellbutrin and someone who is NEVER going to be all the way there. The burden the second person places on their oldest children is a real consideration. The children deserve to be considered first. 

[Catwoman]

I am seeing a lot of bias in this thread against mental illness. I agree that undiagnosed, unacknowledged, and untreated mental illness has horrific consequences in the lives of many people. Unfortunately, bias and stigma help to perpetuate the tendency of people not to seek help as well as the accessibility of help for mental health issues.

 

We have a mom in this thread who suffers from a mental health condition that is episodic in nature. She has proactively taken many steps to provide for the safety of her children during these episodes, which make up a small portion of her/their life. To me this seems not significantly different from a mother who suffers from, say, periodic migraines that incapacitate her and and require her children to fend for themselves at times. I actually doubt there are many migraine sufferers out there who have prepared their children so well for getting through episodes.

 

Children can be taught to understand such episodes of illness and to cope with them. It sounds like these children and their mother are both doing well.

I'm not seeing a bias against mental illness in this thread. I am seeing people voicing genuine concern for the children, as well as sharing their own personal experiences.

[GoodGrief]

I am the oldest child of a mentally ill mother, and my experience is similar to Anne's. I certainly felt the burden of having to be the responsible one. Of course, I got a lot of positive feedback for my "compassion" and willingness to take on the burdens of others, but that led to an unhealthy tendency to become co-dependent. My mother resisted mightily when the time came for me to leave the household for college, and continued to try and bring me back into service.

 

I am not at all close to my two sisters (we are within four years of each other), and I do believe it is because of the odd situation I was put in of having to care for siblings that were younger but quite close in age. My mother confided in me in ways that were inappropriate in regard to my siblings as well. As I posted earlier in this thread, this is the sort of parentification of a child that makes me uncomfortable.