? for those who don't spank/physically chastise

[Nestof3]

PREFACE -- PLEASE READ BEFORE RESPONDING

 

1. am completely sincere about the question. I am not looking to challenge, and I would appreciate no one posting on this thread if they do spank.

 

2. I am looking for people who DO believe that parents are placed in a child's life to guide them, who believe that children should obey their parents and that parents should not provoke their children to wrath.

 

3. I am looking for people who believe that we need our senses trained to discern good from evil -- meaning that our children do not naturally develop this ability being able to choose everything for themselves.

 

4. I am looking for people who do not fear setting a standard for their children -- who do not fear saying "As for me and my house we will _________"

 

5. I am looking for people who do not think rebellion is a healthy and natural thing.

 

***************************

 

Okay -- thanks if you've read so far.

 

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

I'm looking for any tidbits you have to offer. Thanks so much.

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, the answer to all these questions, for me, comes in the form of spiritual guidance. From birth we talk to our children about God and our entire lives revolve around glorifying God with every aspect of our life. As soon as they are able to have the smallest understanding of who God is, they are expected to behave in a way that brings glory to God.

 

Typically, if my kids are acting disobedient or disrespectful in any way the first thing I do is say to them "Is this behavior glorifying to God?" and that usually stops them in their tracks. If my ds grumbles or complains about his lessons or practicing the piano I remind him that his intelligence, his gift of musical ability, his entire life is a gift from God and he is not showing his gratitude for these gifts with his behavior. He repents and moves on with a better attitude.

 

My children love the Lord and want to glorify him. For us, this works better than physical punishment as it focuses their hearts and minds on the one thing that really matters in life rather than trying to avoid a spanking.

[Audrey]

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

We talk. A lot. I explain why I don't want him to do xyz and why its important for him to stop. I ask him to explain why he keeps doing xyz. Yes. It does help. He has always been one who appreciates dialogue and reason.

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

I turn it around and ask how he would feel if I spoke to him that way.

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

I'll leave that one alone. We aren't walking the same path.

 

I'm looking for any tidbits you have to offer. Thanks so much.

 

Respectful discussion always seems to help. When he reverts to undesirable behaviour, a simple reminder of "what did we talk about the other day?" is usually enough to address the issue.

 

I also really listen, because sometimes the behaviour is not out of any wont to be "bad," but rather a result of something else going on with his inner self.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I believe in strong firm discipline. I believe in guiding and teaching and training children. I believe in correcting children. I believe in obedience (though will settle for compliance at times). I believe there is a LOT of benefit in children learning thinking skills and practicing those though it will mean some mistakes. They most certainly don't get to choose everything themselves though. They don't have the life experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc in order to do so. I believe it is unfair to NOT set standards. I also believe that children who are disciplined well can live up to higher standards and with better reasoning behind it. I think rebellion, to some degree (NOTHING like we see in society), is to be expected due to imperfection, parenting, etc. It CAN be healthy, but not in the situation you are talking about.

 

If you tell a child to stop doing something....First, it's USUALLY better to tell them what TO do instead. Start there for the great majority of things. Past that, if you tell a child to stop doing something (or to do something), you simply are ready to make sure it happens immediately. Their choice is to comply on their own or to do so with your "help" which generally they don't like. Regardless, they are complying one way or the other every time. Consistency in that will make it where they just choose to do so MOST of the time. ALL children will check to see if the boundaries still apply, but after a time of training, it will be less and less (though there is a wide range of normal based on the individual children).

 

There are also, depending on the age of the child and what the specific situation is, other things to help.

 

I will tell you that they will stop doing it the SAME that they would if you just slapped them. And they'll probably go back to it just as often also usually depending mostly on what needs they are getting met by doing it and how consistent your response is. It's best to be very consistent and make sure needs are met other ways. But I'll tell you that in every childcare center I've worked in, I've had THE best behaved rooms though I was the ONLY one that didn't use time out and other punishment. The toughest kids I had were the ones who were spanked the most. Obviously, it is possible they were tough so spanked more, but a lot of time, more punishment is used because of the PARENTING issues, not the child issues. But even tough kids come along with good discipline. I really believe tough kids (REALLY tough kids--and I had one) NEED better discipline and less punishment.

 

Children WILL make mistakes. PERIOD. You can't punish that out of a kid. Regarding mouth issues--with my kids, I simply did the "take 2". That meant they had 2 seconds to restate themselves appropriately or excuse themselves til they could come back to state themselves appropriately. We also did a LOT of training in how to recognize feelings, handle them appropriately, think through problems, etc.

 

Your last question seems pretty broad. Pretty much, we believe 2 Tim 3:16-17 completely. The answers are in scripture for anyone wanting to find them. If something isn't handled directly, principles can be applied...and in some other areas, of course, there isn't necessarily a clear direction, but personal conscience. On those things kids follow their own consciences or their parents', whichever is stronger.

 

Hope that helps....

Edited April 29, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Amy loves Bud]

 

 

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

Our children generally stop. I honestly am having a hard time remembering an instance where they didn't. But if they didn't stop, I would physically step in and remove them from the situation and probably send them to their room or take a privilege away, depending on the circumstance.

 

(The one year old often doesn't stop. I pick her up, move her away from the situation, and explain that I mean no. Then I distract her with something else. We'll soon be moving into the time-out realm with her.)

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

Stop them immediately, require an apology and rephrasing of the comment in an appropriate way.

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

By our examples and our words. We study the Bible, memorize scripture, and discuss it in applicable situations, and preferably before the situations arise! We attend church and have a close-knit community of like-minded friends (most of whom spank, LOL!) who we know will encourage our children and set good examples for them.

 

We behave the way we expect our children to behave. We don't yell and we speak with kindness to one another and the kids, and we apologize to one another or the kids when we fail. In short, we try to set things up so the kids are focusing on pursuing what is right rather than avoiding what is wrong.

 

Imagine being on a diet. If all you do is focus on the cookies in the pantry, it makes it very hard to avoid it. But if you think about all the ways to make a delicious salad you can stop yourself from cheating with the cookie.

 

I'm looking for any tidbits you have to offer. Thanks so much.

 

I'm going to be honest. We don't spank, never have, and never will. But I am not naive, and I know that my two older children are just about the easiest children in the world to parent. The baby seems like she may require bigger guns, but Bud and I are firm believers in not spanking them, so we'll muddle through as needed, but we won't be adding spanking to our arsenal.

[PiCO]

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

First, we talk about it. (Similar to Audrey.) If that doesn't work, younger children get a time-out. Pre-teens lose priviledges, teens lose cell phone. Talk again after reprimand. Yes, it works.

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

Talk about why that's disrespectful, and better ways to handle the situation.

 

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

Talk a LOT about what's wrong and what's OK (ethical discussions.) We are atheists, so we don't automatically look to the Bible for an answer.

[Tammy]

When my children were infants.....I met their needs in a timely manner. I didn't let my babies cry for need of something.

 

As they grew older....when I asked them not to touch something or to put something back.....and they didn't do it immediately....I got up...walked over to them....and put it back for them (or in the case of not touching something....I would remove them from that area).

 

So....as they grew up....they understood that when I said something, I meant it, LOL. And....I don't have any problems with them now....when I tell them to do something....they do it. However, I don't sit on my rear end and tell them to clean the house....of course. I will say....you clean the bathroom while I clean the kitchen, etc.

 

They do have certain things they are responsible for....

 

I am also a funny mom....I like to joke around and have as much fun as I can.... \they know when I am serious and joking around, LOL.

 

I think some parents' problem is....they try to be their children's best friend. I don't think you can do that....maybe when they are grown...but it isn't my job for my kids to 'like' me....KWIM? Parents don't want to discipline their kids for fear their kids won't 'like' them....and I think that is silly..... My kids will always love me....and I will always love them....and I think if you start disciplining when they are born....you are bound to have a happy outcome.

 

.

[Nestof3]

Thank you so very much for all of the words so far. I'm really thinking through a lot right now, and I respect each and every thing you ladies have said.

[Greta]

2. I am looking for people who DO believe that parents are placed in a child's life to guide them,

 

I agree on that point.

 

who believe that children should obey their parents

I like the word "obey" with respect to children just as much as I like it with respect to marriage vows. And what I mean by that is, it wasn't in my wedding vows! "Cooperate", yes. "Obey", no. Guiding to me (as in the above point) is similar to leading. It is anyone's choice whether or not they follow. I'm not a dictator. :)

 

and that parents should not provoke their children to wrath.

Absolutely agree in principle, though I can't claim to be completely innocent of the charge. ;)

 

I am looking for people who believe that we need our senses trained to discern good from evil -- meaning that our children do not naturally develop this ability being able to choose everything for themselves.

Hmm, that's actually a tricky one. I believe in the ultimate goodness of humanity. I believe that we are born with the capacity for both good and bad, but that we tend towards good by nature, and learn bad habits (of thought, speech, and action). I therefore think it is my responsibility to first of all not teach her bad habits and secondly to nurture her own inherent altruism and morality.

 

I am looking for people who do not fear setting a standard for their children -- who do not fear saying "As for me and my house we will _________"

Absolutely.

 

I am looking for people who do not think rebellion is a healthy and natural thing.

That's me.

 

If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

Honestly, this doesn't happen with my daughter. I'm not saying that she's perfect! But, even though things started out rocky, we have built a relationship on trust. When I *ask* her to stop doing something, I explain my reasoning. She knows from experience that I have a good reason for asking her to do (or not do) the things I ask her to. She doesn't "obey" but she "cooperates". When she asks me to do something for which the reason isn't immediately obvious to me, the same is true in reverse. She explains her reasoning, and I generally cooperate (if possible). We both want to make each other happy, so there's little or no (so far at least, knock on wood!) complete disregard of my wishes.

 

ETA: It's not inconceivable to me that I might have to deal with this situation of non-cooperation. But there's no easy formula to say how I would handle it. It really depends on the particulars of the situation. If it's one involving the personal safety, health, or well-being of her or someone else involved, then that is absolutely a time to "lay down the law". But if it's a matter of my wishes conflicting with her wishes, I would have to try to take a step back and ask myself how important my wishes really are. I'm sorry if this answer seems like a cop-out. It's just that I really don't believe in any magic formula of parenting that can be applied to all children in all circumstances. The details make all the difference.

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

This happened recently in the setting of a Girl Scouts meeting. I am the troop leader, and was asking several of the girls (one of whom was my own dd) who were being disruptive to settle down so that we could get to work. She responded very disrespectfully, and I told her that it embarrassed me, and that I felt I deserved to be treated with more respect. She agreed and apologized.

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

Generally, through example. But there are also times when explicit instruction is helpful. But my instruction usually takes the form of advice and not orders. I don't (though I used to) try to force certain behaviors, but instead try to address the underlying emotions and motivations. We sometimes talk about Buddha and/or Jesus as models of good moral behavior, and discuss how we can try to live up to their example. Edited April 29, 2009 by GretaLynne

[Alicia64]

For me, the relationship bond is so strong between my and boys and myself that it basically just takes a firm look and an "Andrew" and he stops. Spanking either boy would fray the bond. I'm certain.

 

Sometimes, but not always, I explain my reasoning. A rabbi author said it beautifully in his book, "if anything happened to you and you were to die, mommy and daddy would never have another good day without you in our lives."

 

I try to teach them that there's a good reason that I'm saying no. "I don't want you to be exhausted in the morning so let's get some shut-eye now."

 

When I explain, it has a very strong: I care about you message behind the explanation that I make sure comes through loud and clear.

 

Sometimes I even get teary when I'm explaining something w/ the I care About You msg. and that changes the energy in the room.

 

When worse comes to worst I take away privileges or give consequences. One consequence is going to their room which they really don't like because they know that they often fall asleep in there -- and they don't want to do that.

 

Alicia

[Rosie_0801]

I will admit upfront that I'm not parenting my toddler with nearly as much patience as I'd like at the moment, but in my dealings with disrespectful ways of speaking (I was a guide leader for years) I would usually say "my ears can't hear you properly when you speak that way, can you phrase that more politely?" Or "my ears can't hear you properly when you speak that way, did you mean XYZ <insert more appropriate phrase>" if they agree that's what they meant, I'll carry out their request as though they had said that in the first place. It never took long before the kid learned to ask nicely, partly because I told them what I wanted them to say in a non-confrontational way, and partly because they got what they wanted. If that's what works, that's what they'll do. Most troubles I saw in other situations came from the adult humiliating the child. Then it's no wonder they retorted rudely or flounced off in a huff. Which of those phrases I used depended on the child. Some kids can handle the first, others can't.

 

With kids continuing behaviours I've asked them to cease, I get down on their level and repeat my request. It's amazing what people don't hear while they have all appearance of having heard. My dh is half deaf so I guess I'm used to people not having heard properly :) Other than with toddlers, I don't tend to have much problem. Generally if you're willing to take the time to get right down there, the kid assumes you actually did mean what you said and will stop.

 

I don't have anything to say about moral guidance, since I've not been responsible for anyone's yet! The closest would have been getting my brownies to be nice to each other and the tactics used depended on the child. Sometimes it was an appeal to their better nature, sometimes a reminder of their promise and guide laws, sometimes a little chat about how our brains can be lazy and not guide us properly so we have to supervise and keep it in line. Not sure if that last one was altogether logical, but it worked well on my 7 year olds! Duty to God is part of the guide promise, so if the child was from a religious family, I'd phrase things that way.

 

Rosie

[NorthwestMom]

Generally, I agree with what Tammy wrote. When the kids were young, if they did not follow directions, I physically helped them follow directions. I explained to them why I said what I said in an age-appropriate way. If the child falls into a tantrum, they need to stay in their room until they calm down and can have a reasonable discussion. As the kids get older, there are often additional consequences, such as no dessert or going to bed without reading books first (oh, the horror!).

 

When my kids are mouthy, they usually get, "Try again." If they re-state it respectfully, okay; if not, I'll tell them how I'd like it to be worded (and if they are asking for something they won't get it). We do talk about manners a lot in our family, and I try hard to treat them respectfully too.

 

I am a happy person and I like to joke with the kids, but I am the parent and the buck stops here. I will be treated respectfully by the kids.

 

I believe that one teaches others how to treat them. I *hope* I am teaching my kids that physical violence and disrespect are never okay, especially from the people who love you the most.

[Sugarfoot]

You've gotten some great advice here. I'll add that something we do often and from the beginning is to reinforce the behavior that we want to see. When they're really little, we say things like, "You're doing such a good job sitting in your high chair!" or "That's such a good girl/boy to answer Mommy like that!" We also set up expectations clearly and in advance. For example, "We're going to the grocery store after lunch. You'll need to stay with Mommy/ride in the cart. I expect you not to whine or fuss." Then when we get there, I don't wait for anything to go wrong. I immediately say, "Good job walking next to me." "You're being such a good boy/girl." Usually, the positive feelings from this are enough to keep them behaving well. Later, that evolves into things like, "Thank you for getting started on your math. That will help our day go smoother."

 

I guess what I'm saying is that we try to "shape" their behavior as much as possible rather than "wait and punish."

 

We like the Love and Logic approach as well, and we've gotten some great tips/techniques from those books.

 

At this point, the older 2 DC rarely need to be corrected.

[sarahli]

We use 1-2-3 magic with our 2 year old, it works beautifully. It's so easy, I never would have imagined it. We used to "swat" (over clothes and diaper on the bottom) or raise our voices but ds is active and has trouble listening, and would just laugh at us, or just not acknowledge it. He was a little young at first, so it took a while for him to catch on that there would be a consequence.

 

All I say if he's doing something wrong is "that's one", and 5 seconds later say "that's two" and then "that's three, time out", and he gets two minutes in his room with the baby gate up (more time if he wants to stay in and play).

Almost always though now he stops at one or two. He knows that if I count, there will definitely be a consequence, and he knows what it is, so he stops. Even now, if I say "stop doing xyz" he may or may not listen. So I only count. He still "tests" me, but I count and he stops.

It's wonderful not yelling or spanking.

It sounds silly at first, even DH thought it would never work, but DH counts now too :D

I watched the DVD from my library.

 

* I try to avoid using the terms "good boy/bad boy" at any cost. My mother used these and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I prefer "that was a nice thing to do" or "that was not a nice thing to do", so that attention is placed on the action, not on the child's character.

Edited April 29, 2009 by sarahli
yes

[buddhabelly]

Regarding what to do about your kids speaking to you disrespectfully, I strongly recommend a zero tolerance policy. In other words, don't allow eye-rolling, sighing, ANY disrespectful body language or speech. Make it clear that it is not acceptable in your house, and you will not speak to them like that either. It seems harsh to punish disrespectful speech, but IMO it is crucial for harmony in the home. There is a book called "No Backtalk: 4 Steps to Ending Rude Behavior in Your Children" that will walk you through this: http://www.amazon.com/Backtalk-Steps-Ending-Rude-Behavior/dp/068484124X

 

Best of luck,

 

Julie

[Laura Corin]

I think I meet your description: I am told that my boys have a reputation in our village for politeness. We are not Christians but have a strong moral code of respect for self and others.

 

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

If child is doing something wrong, I will call him to me, hug him, gather him back into the family. We talk about his place in his family, about working together, and about how each of us has responsibilities, including that of behaving well. If his misbehaviour means that something needs doing (he didn't tidy his room, for example) then I go with him to ensure that the work is done. It took a few weeks after we started doing this, but it works really well now. I have to do it a few times a month. In between, all I say is 'Hobbes, please do such and such.' He might forget, but he doesn't disobey.

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

I assume (or act as if I assume) that the disrespect was unintentional and the speech just needs recasting. For example:

 

"Mum, why aren't my clothes clean for Karate?"

 

I would say, "Ooops, I think that didn't come out quite right. How about, 'Mum, I can't find my Karate clothes, could you help me please?'" Then he has to repeat it before I reply.

 

Treating it as an honest mistake lowers the temperature.

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

By modelling, reminders and (if necessary) role play. If a situation went badly wrong, I take the child back through it, so that he can practise getting it right.

 

ETA: Calvin barely needs correction; Hobbes was starting to be quite a handful before I began using these methods.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

Edited April 29, 2009 by Laura Corin

[Rosie_0801]

Regarding what to do about your kids speaking to you disrespectfully, I strongly recommend a zero tolerance policy. In other words, don't allow eye-rolling, sighing, ANY disrespectful body language or speech. Make it clear that it is not acceptable in your house, and you will not speak to them like that either. It seems harsh to punish disrespectful speech, but IMO it is crucial for harmony in the home. There is a book called "No Backtalk: 4 Steps to Ending Rude Behavior in Your Children" that will walk you through this: http://www.amazon.com/Backtalk-Steps-Ending-Rude-Behavior/dp/068484124X

 

Best of luck,

 

Julie

 

 

Not dishing you, Julie, but I think we have to be careful to find the balance on this issue. When I was growing up, we weren't allowed to display anything at all negative. Somehow we were supposed to respond to any reprimands with the same pleasantness as we'd respond to a request to bring the mail in. Despite my years of practise, I never got good at that! If we disappeared into our rooms, Mum would follow us to shout some more about sulking. Some reaction has to be allowed, but of course we have to let our kids know what those reactions are.

 

Rosie

[Pamela H in Texas]

A post compiling a bunch of different thoughts...

 

to start, I think Rosie is correct. I think a lot of things have to be firmly disallowed (rolling eyes would probably result in rolling heads here....not sure if I'm joking). However, I have been around families that didn't allow ANY expression of negative feelings and that seems unhealthy. At the same time, being around kids that huff and puff, stomp, etc is uncomfortable (well, and the kids just aren't HAPPY or healthy either if it's extreme).

 

One thing I do with ALL children I'm with is expect immediate compliance (or with older kids, respectful statement of why it can't be). I would NEVER say things 3 times, count to 3, etc. I meant what I said the FIRST time and believe my children should comply. I just don't like obedience to be optional for any length of time. The only time I'd use counting of any sort would be to hurry something up ("see if you can get these legos picked up by the time I count to five.").

 

I really don't mean things "when I get to 3." I meant them when I said them. And I think it sets of a situation for disrespect ("I can wait til mom says 1 or 2 or 3.") and danger (do you HAVE 3 seconds when they are chasing a ball out into the street?).

 

When I read my response vs other responses, though they say similar things (except that we didn't move into punishment like some), mine sounded more....something...harsher? I think the reason that is is temperment of the children and possibly the parents involved. Though we have lots of fun, I try to be reasonable, I use humor even, my personality is pretty darn serious and strict. I run a tight ship. Also, I had a child that just HAD to have VERY firm and VERY consistent. ANY deviation from a quite narrow road would have been problematic. Some kids are just easier (I had one that probably would qualify as easiest in the world), but some are considerably tougher. I think tougher kids benefit from good discipline, often doing better if it's nonpunitive. But I think the reason the tone of my posts is more strict/harsh/inflexible(?) is because between a tough kid and my own personality, it just HAD to be.

 

Anyway, not sure I'm making any sense, but I just noticed a difference. You really have to take in account your personality and your children's needs. And it's perfectly okay to be very strict even if you are dropping spanking and/or punishment from your parenting toolbox.

[SnowWhite]

Consequences?

 

I am not answering this thread, because I do not yet fit the criteria, but I am reading it and trying to learn from it, so I hope OP doesn't mind if I insert a question.

 

A lot of you say for disrespectful speech that you will instruct/redirect. What do you do when the child *refuses* to accept the instruction/redirection? What consequence works for you?

[Laura Corin]

Would expressed love be a consequence? A defiant child in my house would be cuddled and calmed and reassured that he was loved, then taken by the hand to accomplish the required task. I see defiance as a pushing at the boundaries not of my discipline, but of my love: trying to see just how solid the love is. He needs to know that the love is unbreakable.

 

Laura

[Pamela H in Texas]

A lot of you say for disrespectful speech that you will instruct/redirect. What do you do when the child *refuses* to accept the instruction/redirection? What consequence works for you?

 

What would you do if you were, say at a church function, and someone got rude with you? Or what should you do? You put up a boundary verbally and/or physically, right? So with a child, you may say something like, "you may not speak to me like that." You walk away and they can find you when they are ready to apologize and state themselves correctly.

 

The BIG thing in all this though is to DISCIPLINE. The consequence is not nearly as important as the teaching in these situations. Kids NEED to learn to recognize their feelings as they come up. They need to learn to express them appropriately. They need to learn to "argue" their point in an acceptable manner (and only at acceptable times). This takes time.

 

Sure, there has to be correction in the meantime. You give him a chance to fix it. If he doesn't choose to, he chooses not to have you as an audience. Part of that may be that he goes to whatever y'all use as your quiet spot in the house (bedrooms are usually used, but some people have other places, including a back porch or something).

 

But the MAIN thing is the teaching outside of individual issues. It's the proactive teaching you do. It's the cues you give in a situation. It's the guidance you give. It's the mild rebuke/redirection.

 

A LOT of people focus on the consequences instead of the teaching and guidance. Even if you move away from hitting your kid, you'd still be doing them better if you beefed up the good strong discipline rather than relied on made up consequences.

[Free Indeed]

Thank you for asking this. I am really learning quite a bit from reading this. The only parents I have ever known who do not spank, the kids did what they wanted and did not listen AT ALL. That is not acceptable to our family. So thank you to all who are taking the time to explain. :001_smile:

[Night Elf]

While our children were very young, my DH and I were the most important role models in our children's lives. We did not hit, push, yell (well, occasionally), grab, etc. We always tried to speak to each other and our children with respect and love. We used time outs, even for the parents, if a situation was too overwhelming. We used redirection and talking. We shared our feelings and always let the kids know we respected their feelings as well.

 

I've never had my children speak in a disrespectful manner. Oh they've been angry and said things in the heat of the moment, but I don't consider that disrespectful. The few times something nasty was said, like the 'You're a mean mom and I don't love you," my children have always felt horrible afterwards when they were calm and would apologize. They exhibited the very behavior I've always shown them. If I get mad and yell, I apologize to them. I parent from the point of view that everyone has equal rights. My children have the same rights as I do.

 

In the case of getting the kids to stop doing something I don't like, I step in and take a physical part of the situation. For example, if the kids are fighting (verbal never physical) I talk with them and separate them if need be.

 

We are not religious and don't have religious reasons or guidelines for our thoughts and behaviors. We simply know right from wrong. We appeal to the children's personal senses when dealing with moral issues. We don't quote the law to make them realize something is wrong. We talk to them about respect for people. I don't tell my children they can't steal things because it's against the law. I tell them stealing is taking something that does not belong to them and it's simply wrong to treat someone in such a manner. I encourage them to be honest, not because lying is a sin, but because it's truly disrespectful to another person.

 

So far, we've simply not had any major problems come up. My oldest dd has had some issues during this school year that have made my head spin but we both have tackled the issues with maturity. Neither of us stuck our heads in the sand, so to speak. We've realized we have grown during these times. I feel closer to her now than I ever have before. I had some parents advise me on how to handle the situations. Their advice was punitive and harsh, meant only to establish power between our parent/child roles. Instead, I empowered her and let her take the lead. I worked alongside her, not in front of her. The growing process is absolutely amazing. I'm in true awe as I watch her become an independent young woman. (Oops, got off topic there. :lol:)

[Night Elf]

I like the word "obey" with respect to children just as much as I like it with respect to marriage vows. And what I mean by that is, it wasn't in my wedding vows! "Cooperate", yes. "Obey", no. Guiding to me (as in the above point) is similar to leading. It is anyone's choice whether or not they follow. I'm not a dictator. :)

 

Oh very well said Greta! Thank you! I've been trying to express that idea into words for years but haven't been as eloquent as you! We specifically asked to have that word removed from our vows as well. That's just a power we don't believe in and want no part of. The word cooperate implies an understanding of the situation. We cooperate because we are making a good choice. On the other hand, we feel the word obey implies teaching automatic responses without true understanding. It also encourages a subservient attitude that we don't believe in.

[Nestof3]

Consequences?

 

I am not answering this thread, because I do not yet fit the criteria, but I am reading it and trying to learn from it, so I hope OP doesn't mind if I insert a question.

 

A lot of you say for disrespectful speech that you will instruct/redirect. What do you do when the child *refuses* to accept the instruction/redirection? What consequence works for you?

 

No, I am glad that you asked this question, because I was wondering as well.

 

Thanks!

 

Added: Pamela, thanks for the quick response.

Edited April 29, 2009 by nestof3

[Tammyla]

I/we just never did. Time outs, pick them up (toddlers) talking, loss of privileges, modeling how to behave respectfully and lots of reminders of how we behave in our family. It may take more time and you do have to react quickly, but it works.

 

I'm respectful of parents who do spank, mine did, but I don't need to. Not that there haven't been times that I might have thought...Hey today is the day he is going to get one. kwim. My goal has always been to teach them and not spank in a moment of anger or crisis.

 

When kids are little spanking is easy, but if you look at the discipline for the full time they are in your care ,it eventually doesn't work especially for moms. (Spanking an out of control teen boy would be impossible for me.) The threat of calling dad and talking to him has worked very well as mine have gotten older especially with my ds. We never took spanking off the table as a possibility, we just hoped and prayed not to need it.

 

fwiw, My kids aren't perfect, but they very often get compliaments on their manners and good behavior. They do listen to me and dh. I've left places if little ones didn't. My ds does have a good sized boy temper, but we are teaching him how to handle it.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Tammyla

[KS_]

No, I am glad that you asked this question, because I was wondering as well.

 

Thanks!

 

For us, we use the system (tweaked some to fit our family) from the book Transforming the Difficult Child. We used to spank when ds was younger, but it was so ineffective and just created so much more anger in him and I was really desperate to find something that worked with him. He can be extremely difficult, challenging, contrary and just hard to be around and will not be redirected, consoled, hugged, etc., when he's in one of those moods. We use a token economy and basically the kids can choose by their behavior what kind of consequences they have and they know what those will be ahead of time.

 

Sometimes ds will accept redirection or instruction and we go from there, but if he's past that point and has worked himself up into a fit, I will remind him that his speech or attitude is disrespectful or he's being disobedient and isn't doing what I asked, but after that, for him, he responds most quickly to being ignored (and it's not very quick, but engaging with him just fuels his bad mood). Yesterday he had one of these fits and was mad about a certain chore he had to do and that his sister got to read Ranger Rick before him, and so was hollering from his room "You're slower than a snail hit by hail" over and over and over again (if he wasn't being so naughty it would have been funny). Dd and I just went about what we were doing, ignoring him, and after awhile (about an hour) he finally calmed down and came and apologized. He still had consequences of not getting his full credits for the day (from the token economy system), which translates into him not having as many privileges until he earns more (things like computer time cost credits).

 

ETA: And dh and I get complimented quite often about the dc behavior and character when we're out. They're not perfect children by any stretch of the imagination, but they usually are very kind, sweet, helpful, funny, and good kids :)

Edited April 29, 2009 by KH_

[Nestof3]

I couldn't be more thankful for the fabulous responses so far. Thanks all for not turning this into a spank vs non-spank discussion.

 

(I read a small reference this morning to my two-paragraph disclaimer, but there is a method to my madness. ;) Thanks Rosie for explaining why you said that, because I did feel like I was being laughed at.)

 

I am not opposed to those threads where the non-spankers passionately dialogue (debate/argue/whatever) with the spankers. It actually springboarded much of my current ponderings. So, if a person started a thread with "I just cannot understand why a person would spank," I would expect a dialogue between the two sides.

 

We've already had a few of these, and I wanted to get more info specifically from those who do not spank AND those who run a tight ship in many ways (meaning it's not a free for all). It is impossible for me to word this all correctly, but I have seen people who do not spank but also do nothing when their child is destructive, unkind, etc. I've actually seen them dole out punishment after punishment and carrot after carrot to get proper behavior. I have never seen fruitful results from non-spankers in my "real life," but I just knew many of you have fruitful results to share with me. You haven't disappointed.

[Tammyla]

Well for me, I'm the parent along with dh. We supply the food, clothes, video games, movies, fun time outside with a pool pass lots of trips to the park, library, book store, game stop, occasional restaurants, baseball games, soccer, dance, shopping, church or take out pizza...you name it. (Insert...what your child likes.) Listen to me or you'll find yourself with only the necessities and I'll pile on the chores.

 

Big one, I don't make outrageous threats. We say what we mean and mean what we say. You can count on my word. If I say, no baseball game and those tickets go to waste...Well, honey I'm sorry this is a hard lesson. I've driven home from tennis lessons because ds was too angry to handle it, but he did extremely well the next day. In the past I've left many a fun place ie, park restaurant etc until they were ready to behave.

 

I'm going to be honest and say that even visitors kids listen to me in my house, and I'm not an imposing figure by any stretch of the imagination. This is my house and my rules, listen or leave. My kids are sent to their rooms if necessary. We very rarely have issues around here.

 

There is no perfect answer and kids are built to test their boundaries, but consistency works around here.

 

Consequences?

 

I am not answering this thread, because I do not yet fit the criteria, but I am reading it and trying to learn from it, so I hope OP doesn't mind if I insert a question.

 

A lot of you say for disrespectful speech that you will instruct/redirect. What do you do when the child *refuses* to accept the instruction/redirection? What consequence works for you?

[Miss Peregrine]

We do much of what has already been spoken of here.

 

Disrespectful talk gets you a "try again" with a script provided by me.

 

When you hurt someone you make amends.

 

When you do a poor job, you do it again. My kids probably hear "Do it right or do it over" in their sleep.:001_smile:

 

First-time obedience is not a high priority as I have learned that sometimes the child does have a valid reason why she might not be able to do something right now. I try to be open to that, but discerning between a real concern and a stall tactic.;)

 

Morality? I live my life how I believe God wants me to. I make my mistakes, learn from them, and let the kids see that process. We talk openly and honestly.

 

We don't do punishments at all. There are consequences to their behaviors, of course.

 

You are being mean and nasty? No one wants to be around you.

 

You spill your water? You clean it up. Yes, I was spanked for this growing up.

 

Do a poor job at a task given you? I call you in from playing with your friends and you do it over.

 

You lose our snow shovel? You buy a new one.

 

I think natural or logical consequences have a far more positive impact on a child's development than an imposed punishment that has nothing to do with the infraction(spanking, time-out, writing sentences, grounding).

[Tammyla]

:iagree: Very good examples of Love & Logic:001_smile:.

 

We do much of what has already been spoken of here.

 

Disrespectful talk gets you a "try again" with a script provided by me.

 

When you hurt someone you make amends.

 

When you do a poor job, you do it again. My kids probably hear "Do it right or do it over" in their sleep.:001_smile:

 

First-time obedience is not a high priority as I have learned that sometimes the child does have a valid reason why she might not be able to do something right now. I try to be open to that, but discerning between a real concern and a stall tactic.;)

 

Morality? I live my life how I believe God wants me to. I make my mistakes, learn from them, and let the kids see that process. We talk openly and honestly.

 

We don't do punishments at all. There are consequences to their behaviors, of course.

 

You are being mean and nasty? No one wants to be around you.

 

You spill your water? You clean it up. Yes, I was spanked for this growing up.

 

Do a poor job at a task given you? I call you in from playing with your friends and you do it over.

 

You lose our snow shovel? You buy a new one.

 

I think natural or logical consequences have a far more positive impact on a child's development than an imposed punishment that has nothing to do with the infraction(spanking, time-out, writing sentences, grounding).

[Miss Peregrine]

Can I add something else?

 

We used to spank. I stopped when DD1 was about 4. DS was spanked a few times by DH but he stopped shortly after I did.

 

We have a relatively peaceful home. There is sometimes drama but for the most part, it is harmonious.

 

Taking away spanking/punishment also took away the adversarial tone in our house. The assumption that "you are going to mess up and I am here to make sure you know you were wrong" has transformed into "We all mess up, let's see what we can do to make ourselves better."

 

 

ETA: I hope the above doesn't come across as spanking/no spanking debate. I will delete it if you want me to, Dawn. I don't intend to go down that road. This is a good discussion. :smile

Edited April 29, 2009 by Miss Peregrine

[Jumping In Puddles]

Thanks all for not turning this into a spank vs non-spank discussion.

 

(I read a small reference this morning to my two-paragraph disclaimer, but there is a method to my madness. ;)

 

That disclaimer was perfect. If you didn't this would be a thread about spanking vs. no spanking and I'm glad it is not because there have been some fantastic responses!

 

Thanks for asking the question. :)

[dragons in the flower bed]

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

With a younger child, if telling him to stop does not work, I have to cause him to stop. For example, if he's kicking the seat in front of him despite being told not to, I'll physically reach out and remove his legs, then indicate to him that he should sit on his legs. Or I'll put a bag there, or have him on my lap, depending on the kid and the circumstances.

 

Yeah, it does help. Obviously it stops the action at that moment, but continually preventing kids from doing wrong things also serves, over time, to make the right things habitual. And it serves to demonstrate that disobedience is never an option. Either obey voluntarily or Mama will make you obey.

 

(I view discipline the same way a fitness coach might. I'm constantly walking in circles around my kid's actions, having them tuck in here, move more slowly there, take a breath and hold it until I say, etc. It's not punitive; it's instructional. But it's extremely hands-on, specific, and even strict in it's own way. You don't see the results at the moment of correction except in a superficial way, but eventually each action I'm enforcing has become a habit so the child feels weird when doing it incorrectly.)

 

With my older children (eight and up, I think) I'm finding that I have to appeal to their social conscience directly. I come to them at a time when we're not already in conflict, and I explain. "You know how you've been getting on the computer in the mornings before I'm up? That's not just sneaking around and getting something extra for yourself. Because I told you not to, it's directly ignoring a request I made of you, and being deceptive about it too. And that's really an awful way for family members to get along." At this point the kids are generally hanging their heads, but if not, I'll lay it on more thickly until I can see that they're rethinking their decision to introduce such conflict into our family.

 

With the Nerd (11) I have used the Atticus line -- "I've never had to punish you before. Let's not introduce that into our relationship now." I need that kid to not read To Kill a Mockingbird for a few more years. And to not realize that every time the daddio punishes him I have had something to do with it.

 

When we do punish, it's by requiring extra work or taking away privileges, usually related to whatever the offense was. It's pretty rare, though, saved for times when the kids carefully weighed the options and chose one they knew would be hurtful.

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

I might say to my three-year-old, "It is REALLY not okay for you to talk to me in a way that makes me feel attacked. Knock it off! You're hurting my feelings!" I then tell him how to sweetly explain that he also wanted salsa with his snack of chips, and he does it that way. He's been in a mood the past few days. We had this same conversation five or six times on Monday, three or four times Tuesday, maybe twice yesterday, and so far not once yet today.

 

I also use positive reinforcement to good effect with him. When he says please, I say, "I LOVE it when you say please!" and I smile into his sparkly little eyes.

 

With my six-year-old, it tends to be sarcasm, or eye rolling. In those cases he gets a little lecture and then is made to do it over.

 

My oldest tends to be oblivious to what will upset people. Yesterday, at the local rock shop, the owner of the store could not identify a rock in the dollar bin except as sedimentary. The 8yo said, "Well, I think you shouldn't be selling it if you can't identify it!" I was not there when this happened. The daddio brought the kid back to me (I was in the car with the little kids -- it's a teeny shop) and I could tell right away something was wrong. The Daydreamer was on the verge of tears. When the 8yo explained to me what had happened, I said, "Did you apologize?"

 

"Yes, but I don't think he heard me."

 

So I made the kid go back with instructions not to leave until absolutely certain that the apology had been heard and accepted. In that case, my kid wasn't trying to be mean. The Daydreamer was just failing to put thought into what it takes to be decent in human relations. I would have reacted differently if there was any malice.

 

The Nerd... nothing I do seems to help there. His mom is so disrespectful in the way she speaks to everyone that no matter how strict I am, he reverts to being a sarcastic, teasing pest as soon as I'm not there to correct him. He also tends to seek out friends who are sarcastic, annoying people. It's not what I want for him, but with a stepkid, sometimes the best you can do is expose him to the way of life you think is better and accept that he's going to make his own choice. If I had the authority to require him to be good, I would, but I'm not with him frequently enough to pull out the big guns. And he has this other world to run back to if I get too tough.

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

As above.

Edited April 29, 2009 by dragons in the flower bed

[Greta]

The assumption that "you are going to mess up and I am here to make sure you know you were wrong" has transformed into "We all mess up, let's see what we can do to make ourselves better."

 

That was beautifully said! I used punishments (though not spanking) with my daughter for years, and I feel like that has left her scarred. I'm working on healing now, and though I still mess up, it seems to be going really well. Now I really try to make our relationship the priority, instead of focusing so much (which in my case was far too much) on her behavior. Things have fallen into place more quickly and better than I could have imagined.

 

Dawn, I don't know if you are looking for information about which punishments can replace spanking, or if you are looking for something entirely different than a punishment approach. If the latter, I would love to point you to the book Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. I've mentioned it on here before, but I can't stop raving about it, because it was like having the blinders removed and seeing the world in a whole new way. It could truly revolutionize your parenting!

[HappyGrace]

it has been a blessing and come at just the right time for me.

[Greta]

You're welcome, but you said it better than I did:

 

The word cooperate implies an understanding of the situation. We cooperate because we are making a good choice. On the other hand, we feel the word obey implies teaching automatic responses without true understanding. It also encourages a subservient attitude that we don't believe in.

 

A very well-intentioned and good-hearted friend once told me that even if I did not want to spank my dd, I had to find a way to break her will. I thought about that a lot because I wanted to give her advice due consideration. I have a lot of respect for this friend, and she was a more experienced parent than I was. But I decided that a "broken will" was about the last thing I wanted for my daughter. If her will is broken, than anyone who comes along with a more powerful will would be able to control and manipulate her. No thanks. I want my daughter's will fully intact, alongside a highly developed morality, and a healthy sense of self-determination.

 

My friend would no doubt be shocked to learn the full effect that her well meaning advice had on me. :)

Edited April 29, 2009 by GretaLynne

[KS_]

 

A very well-intentioned and good-hearted friend once told me that even if I did not want to spank my dd, I had to find a way to break her will. I thought about that a lot because I wanted to give her advice due consideration. I have a lot of respect for this friend, and she was a more experienced parent than I was. But I decided that a "broken will" was about the last thing I wanted for my daughter. If her will is broken, than anyone who comes along with a more powerful will would be able to control and manipulate her. No thanks. I want my daughter's will fully intact, alongside a highly developed morality, and a healthy sense of self-determination.

 

 

 

I agree so much with this! Much of my struggle with my very difficult child has been to try to help him learn self-control and channel his extremely strong will into positive behavior and actions. He's one of those who I don't think I *could* ever break his will, even if that had been my goal in parenting.

[HRAAB]

We talk, talk, and talk more. Then we think and ponder, separately. When they're small, I will re-direct their behavior. Even as they grow, I give alternatives. Which is better to choose, x or y. I listen, listen very deeply to what they're saying. I always try to remember they are completely human, just small. They are persons deserving of respect because of their humanity. I have six years between my older two and my younger three. That time span gave me some room to make comparisons. Some of the behaviors that my older two had (disrespect - which we don't tolerate) I gave serious thought to. One thing I had to admit is that I often spoke to them disrespectfully. That is something I have worked on very hard within myself, have made good strides, and it is showing in my younger three. Rarely do I ever hear anything I would call verbal disrespect coming from them. It was me setting the example; I changed the example.

 

Sometimes there are natural consequences, and we let those play out. At times we have imposed consequences such as loss of privileges although that is rare. Usually, we don't need to go there. They're certainly not perfect, but discipline doesn't seem to be much of a problem anymore - not nearly like it was with my older two. Again, I think the difference is me, and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what I've done - little nuances that are hard to put into words. I'm softer, more respectful, yet firmer. I'm older and more mature.

 

I have other thoughts on parent-child relationships, but I 'think' we would probably have some basic differences because of beliefs concerning human nature. However, I think we expect the same behaviors from our children.

 

eta: when my older two were little, there was a certain book being passed around our moms' group. It was touted as 'the way' to raise kids. I'm ashamed to admit I followed it for a time - thankfully a short amount of time. I spent the next 12+ years trying to undue the hurt and shame I caused my younger two when they were young. The book focused on corporal punishment. Even though I dropped their methods, it still took me a long time to change my understanding of parenting.

 

Janet

Edited April 29, 2009 by Ishki

[Firefly]

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do?

 

At this age, it is very rare that they would continue to do something I told them not to. But when they were little, I'd pick him or her up and remove them from the situation.

 

And, does this help?

Yes. An example: one day when DS was crawling age (he was a late walker, so I can't remember exactly), he decided DH's stereo equipment cords were just the best toys he'd ever seen. He crawled over to play with them and I said "N, no, don't touch that." (I know he was too little to understand my words, this was merely grooming!). He looked over his shoulder at me and continued to touch them. So I went over, picked him up, and placed him back among his toys. I tried to engage him with one, but he started right over for the cords again (with an impish grin, I might add). Again, I walked over, calmly picked him up and put him back. This happened several times, then finally it clicked-- I guess he realized I meant business! He never went for the cords after that. And, after only a few similar instances, he came to understand that when I asked him not to do something, I was going to follow through. He didn't challenge me that often because he knew that when it came down to it, I simply was not going to back down. DD was more challenging-- DS is naturally more of a rule-follower, but DD is a free spirit with a lot more force of will. Still, though it took her a bit longer, she has come to understand there were certain house rules/standards of behavior that were not up for negotiation.

 

As they got older, I talked a lot to them about the WHYs-- why we expected certain behaviors from them, why we don't do certain things (hit, speak disrespectfully-- hurt others etc). But back then, and especially for potentially dangerous situations, they needed to understand unequivocally what "no" meant.

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

I've only had this crop up recently, as they've gotten to that pre-teen age. They are being exposed more to media portrayal of kids their age, and also seeing what other kids in our homeschool group "get away with". (I'm often shocked by how some kids talk to their parents-- one girl in our group will even throw things at her mom, with no consequence!) In the past we have successfully modeled the behavior we expected from them-- not hitting them, speaking respectfully to them and to each other. I trully believe we didn't have hitting/biting issues in toddler-hood because of this. Now, the couple of times this has come up, I tell them that we speak respectfully to each other in this family, and I expect them to speak respectfully to me as I do them. I've also talked to them more about the disrespectful behavior they are seeing in others and why it is wrong.

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

We talk about right and wrong, being a good person, treating others as you wish to be treated, Kharma, the Law of Three (what you put out into the world comes back to you threefold). We are not Christian but we have used Bible stories as well as myths and folk tales from other religions to illustrate these ideas.

 

I'm looking for any tidbits you have to offer. Thanks so much.

 

Consequences, consequences, consequences... as close to real life consequences as possible. I give the kids wide boundaries to work within, but there are always consequences if the boundary is crossed. My two know I am the Gatekeeper of All Things Good & Fun. :lol: Withdrawl of privileges has worked very well for us. My kids are certainly not perfect, but I am proud to say they are known in our circle for their manners and politeness. I even had one mom ask if her son could spend some time with my two to see if any of it rubbed off! LOL One other thing, we also never bribed them; I think that is a very bad habit to get into!

[coralloyd]

Consequences?

 

I am not answering this thread, because I do not yet fit the criteria, but I am reading it and trying to learn from it, so I hope OP doesn't mind if I insert a question.

 

A lot of you say for disrespectful speech that you will instruct/redirect. What do you do when the child *refuses* to accept the instruction/redirection? What consequence works for you?

 

 

I also talk a lot and use my words to try and convict their tender little hearts. There are so many oportunities to teach lessons through stories, the Bible, lifes curcumstances, ect...

I also do a lot of listening to my kiddos, and ask the Lord if there is something behind the feelings or actions that I'm not seeing. It is amazing the insight He can give.

 

However,even though I do NOT spank, I am a firm believer in conseqences.

 

My little one- go to the corner starting at about 18 mon. I place them in the corner for throwing fits. If they get up, I put them back. First time, I tell them why they must stay there, in very simple lanuage. Second time, I say nothing and place them back, then walk away (never try and hold them in the corner). They get up (screaming the whole time mind you ;)), I place them back. This WILL happen many many times, the 1st few tries. However, now my 2 yr. old will cry and scream, yet he stays where I put him.

 

Example: Last night we were at my dd soccer game, he went to move one of the cones. I told him the first time he tried this, "No, do not touch that." The second time I saw him going for it I said, "S, no." He looked at me and touched it, anyway. I got up, carried him to a line painted on the edge of the field, (about 10 feet away), and sat him on it. I told him to stay there, till I said he could get up. He stayed, and cried. When he calmed down, I called him over to where we were sitting. I asked if he was going to listen. He said, "listen" and "sorry" (yes, I make them apologize). Then I hugged and kissed him, and that was that. He never touched the cones again.

 

For my girls (5 and 7)- I use natural conseqences,and taking privileges away.

 

Examples:

"If you keep whining, you obviously are showing me that you are too tired to go to Pioneer Club, later today. You need a nap instead."

 

"If you choose to daudle, you will give me some of the time you waisted for another chore on top of this one."

 

"I was not in the room, so I don't know who is right and who is wrong. If you girls can't go work it out, then you obviously can't play together right now."

 

When arguing or whining gets out of control, I have been known to have them drink a tiny bit of vinegar. I tell them, just as this is unpleasant to their tongue, the arguing/whining is unpleasant to my ears.

 

 

I am constantly told how wonderful all my children are. Just yesterday I had 4 different people compliment all them, in one way or another. The compliments were not just on how good they are (though that was part of it), but how much fun they are. One older lady wanted to take my oldest dd home with her, just to have conversations with her. I do view my children as my friends, and love to just be with them. Yet I am still the mamma, and yes they must obey me.

[lllll]

May I ask how you handle certain situations? If you tell your child to stop doing something, and the child continues to do it, what do you do? And, does this help?

 

If your child speaks disrespectfully, what do you do?

 

How do you handle the moral guiding of your children?

 

I'm looking for any tidbits you have to offer. Thanks so much.

 

Haven't read other posts, so apologize for repetition. Generally, for our dc, I found that if they're kept busy with meaningful work and challenged intellectually in their schoolwork, they don't have time to misbehave. In other words, I tried to put the emphasis on the 'training' vs the 'correcting'. Whenever I slacked off in the 'training' area, I would find myself having to spend more time in the 'correcting' area. So I would get busy trying to up the training such that the correcting area would decrease. Make sense?? Imagine a balance scale. When one side goes up, the other goes down. And vice versa.

 

For the Biblical training, talk, talk, discuss, discuss, talk, talk, and talk some more. I actually learned this from a wonderful Jewish guy (NOT from my own parents OR from any church I ever went to) who worked with my dh in NH. Having noticed over the years how close many Jewish families seemed to be (long term, esp), I was standing in line behind this guy at some event for dh's work one evening, and we started talking and the opportunity came up for me to quiz him. So I did. (His wife wasn't there, or I would have tried to talk to her.) He very graciously described (in a matter of minutes) how they spent hours and hours discussing everything under the sun with their dc. He went on to say other things, but that was the gist of it. So that's what I did.

 

Since talking isn't one of my favorite things to do, I forced myself to talk and listen and point out things and discuss and ... well, you get the idea. But back of it all, was always the Bible. That's the standard. Plumb-line, if you will. We always measure and evaluate everything by the Bible. This turns into many, long discussions as they get older. Be prepared. :)

 

Another thing I think that helps is to be on the lookout for those negative outside influences. People, media stuff, whatever. Sometimes, when I saw puzzling behaviors in our dc which I couldn't explain, I could often trace it back to some kind of outside thing. Once I took care of that, then I focused on getting rid of the lousy habits the dc had picked up from it.

 

Anyway, it's about time to go, so I'll end here. HTH

[Joanne]

Many of my answers to your questions can be found on my site and in my posts over the years.

 

For the earlier parenting years, I talk less (less, it seems, than many posters in this thread) and active parent instead. It's encapsulated in my Get Off Your Butt Parenting page of the site of the same name.

 

As kids are older and able to "talk" more, I do offer reasons. I avoid this for earlier ages for many reasons. One of the biggest reasons is that saying "Don't jump on the couch because you could get hurt" only leads to "But I won't get hurt!"......and minutes of tedious, unnecessary conversation. "The rule is don't jump on the couch" and I pick them up and move them.

 

Disrespect involving speech(of which we've had a lot completely related to age and unique to us circumstances) involves one chance at a do-over, removal of myself from being subjected to it and, if necessary, removal of privileges (related, if possible) such as extracurriculars.

 

My children are being raised by Christian parents (their Dad and stepmom also bring them to church and of the same denomination). I am intentional and consciousness about teaching morals as I understand them and even about morals as I understand others to understand them.

 

I believe wholeheartedly that I am placed in the role of authority over my children and that the (figurative) rod of my discipline is by His design. I do not strive to be their friend, buddy or companion. I am not their playmate or peer. I have first and final say. Their privilege of having a say depends upon age, maturity, recent behavior.

 

One thing that "clicked" with me as I was in the midst of changing my parenting paradigm was that you can't punish a child into maturity or move them along the developmental stages by imposing consequences. Often what we do as parents is what we do while we wait for them to:

 

1) Move out of the stage where they grab things

2) Mature our of the stage where their emotions and their ability to process their emotions are mismatched

3) Learn how to appropriately interact with other children

4) Learn the skills of study, chore, hygiene habits

5) Go through the impulses of mouthiness

 

Really, much of discipline and punishment just looks like we are doing something until that stage or impulse is matured out of.

 

While I do not believe that "rebellion" is an automatic, I do believe that a period of challenging parentally imposed morals, sanctions, ideas and philosophies is common and a normal part of healthy development. I believe a parent can do everything "right" (not perfect, but right) and still have a child who makes bad choices. I do not believe we can train a child in the way they should go and that each child will go there immediately. Most do return to some....sanity. :lol: The verse says when he is OLD he will not depart from it; it does not give early adult promises. :tongue_smilie:

[stripe]

We use a token economy and basically the kids can choose by their behavior what kind of consequences they have and they know what those will be ahead of time.

 

Maybe I was a difficult child, because when I was a kid, on the advice of some "expert," my mom "bought into" this system for a while, and I loathed it. What Laura said, namely:

If child is doing something wrong, I will call him to me, hug him, gather him back into the family. We talk about his place in his family, about working together, and about how each of us has responsibilities, including that of behaving well.

 

really spoke to how I felt as a child - i.e. that when a child is being disobedient, is not the time to distance yourself more; what is needed is a repair of the relationship. I felt at that time, that if I was getting grumpy but was short on whatever token, that I still should be able to be reassured by my own mother, not having to "buy" her love and affection.

 

Also, I felt that the underlying message was that if you behave yourself most of the time, you have enough capital in reserve to be a real stinker some of the time, and you can save up your chips to force your parents to do something they don't want to do, because you have the tokens to make them (!). Well, that and I was able to steal chips. Cough.

 

This thread has some great discussion, and I really appreciate the insight.

Edited April 29, 2009 by stripe

[*********]

I do not believe we can train a child in the way they should go and that each child will go there immediately. Most do return to some....sanity. :lol: The verse says when he is OLD he will not depart from it; it does not give early adult promises. :tongue_smilie:

 

Wow Joanne, thanks for this. It really makes sense. That happened in my own life!

[Nicole M]

Would expressed love be a consequence? A defiant child in my house would be cuddled and calmed and reassured that he was loved, then taken by the hand to accomplish the required task. I see defiance as a pushing at the boundaries not of my discipline, but of my love: trying to see just how solid the love is. He needs to know that the love is unbreakable.

 

Laura

 

Oh, Laura! This is beautiful.

[Alice]

When they are very little (toddlers) I usually just remove them from a situation if they keep doing it. Then we go to short time-outs. With my 5 yr old it would vary with what the behavior was but either a time-out or a natural consequence (since you have chosen to keep throwing that ball indoors I take the ball away).

 

We don't deal with disrepectful speech much. My guys are little. For whining I just say "I'm sorry, I can't understand you. Can you please ask again in a nice way?" I try to say this nicely and not sarcastically. They are expected to say Please and Thank you and if they aren't then they don't get something they are asking for. I ask them to say "I'm sorry" to each other and "I forgive you". If they don't then they can't leave time out or have the consequence end.

 

I would say "Moral guiding" is a constant thing. We try to look at why they are doing certain things and where there heart is and respond to that and not just the behaviour. We talk about how we should treat each other and our family and was much as possible we try to model respectfulness, kindness, and loving behavior. We fail, of course but we try to be honest about our failures and ask the kids for forgiveness.

 

I have pretty compliant kids, and I realize all kids are different. I like what Laura said. I think a lot of times when C5 is acting badly it's because he needs more time with me. I might give him a consequence for a behaviour but then make sure I spend extra time snuggling with him or make an effort to have a special date with him alone.

[KS_]

Maybe I was a difficult child, because when I was a kid, on the advice of some "expert," my mom "bought into" this system for a while, and I loathed it. What Laura said, namely:

really spoke to how I felt as a child - i.e. that when a child is being disobedient, is not the time to distance yourself more; what is needed is a repair of the relationship. I felt at that time, that if I was getting grumpy but was short on whatever token, that I still should be able to be reassured by my own mother, not having to "buy" her love and affection.

 

 

 

Well, I do think whatever method used, it has to work with the child and not make them feel more distanced. Whatever my parents did, did not work well. I never felt close to them. However, my kids really like the token economy system. And it gives them more choices and more control, which is what my ds fights to get if he's not given it. The tokens don't have anything to do with giving them love - once they're at the point where they're done pitching a fit and pushing everyone away, we hug and make up. But my kids will run away from a hug or someone trying to hold them if they're mad - they want nothing to do with it. Dh and I try to head them off at the pass if they seem to be heading that direction (they will accept a hug sometimes before they get that far), but it doesn't always work.

[NorthwestMom]

I also want to add that one of my consequences is Time In. Especially for a child who seems to be spiralling downward, I may send them to their room for a Time Out, but then show up and lay on their bed with them and hold them for awhile. Sometimes you just need some extra lovin' from Mom when your day is failing you. :)

[Joanne]

"If you choose to daudle, you will give me some of the time you waisted for another chore on top of this one."

 

I have a great dawdling help. :001_smile:

 

One of my 3 is a dawdler by nature. She's easily distracted from point A to point B. I realized that I'd have to embrace her nature while finding a way to manage, family wise, the dawdling.

 

So, we practiced "Larsen time" and "Mommy time". Larsen time included being told an instruction (get ready to leave). She could get her shoes, go to the bathroom, notice the tub toys, play, get her coat, notice the dogs and pet them, get her books, notice that she was hungry and get an apple.........

 

We actually practiced this, in a joyful way.

 

And then we practiced "Mommy time" with the same instruction. Shoes, bathroom, books, van with contstant reminders that this was on "Mommy time" and that we had to remind ourselves to be on Mommy time for this one.

 

We practiced different instructions on "Larsen time" and "Mommy time". I told her that there are times when Larsen time is acceptable and times when Mommy time is needed. I expected her to be able to function on Mommy time when told, now that she's practiced.

 

I made sure to provide as many "Larsen time" instructions as I could so that her focused attention wasn't used up for when I needed things on "Mommy time".

 

It worked great.