Consumption of alcohol: Christian viewpoint

[Heather in Neverland]

Can I ask the christian ladies of this board about their views on alcohol? Here is why: After much searching we finally found a church we love. The teaching is deep and meaningful, the people are warm and loving, the kids love it and best of all, God is honored. Even though we are moving to Malaysia for a while, we would consider this our "home" church and would attend when we are home on visits. So we took the 5 week membership class and we were ready to join until.....

 

one line in the membership document states that we are vowing not to consume alcohol. For the record, I was raised in a no-alcohol home and denomination, dh was not. Neither of us drink very often (like maybe one glass of wine per month at a restaurant or special occasion).We do not keep alcohol in the house. But we also don't really consider consumption of alcohol to be a sin.

 

This a membership covenant, something we take seriously. We are hesitant now to become members because of this one line. On the one hand I feel like "We hardly drink anyways, so no big deal, we just won't drink at all." It really would not affect us that much to not drink. But on the other hand, signing this covenant feels like more than that...like we should "denounce" drinking, see it as sinful behavior, be "against" drinking...and we just don't feel that strongly about it.

 

So I guess my question is do you think consumption of alcohol is a sin and if so can you give me the BIBLICAL reference for your belief (I really need the biblical truth behind what you believe, not just personal feelings on it)? And if you do NOT think alcohol consumption is a sin can you also give me the BIBLICAL reference for your belief? I am more than willing to admit I might be wrong on this topic and would love to hear from those who may know more about it than I.

 

Would something like this keep you from joining? I am so torn.....

[LBC]

I don't believe that drinking alcohol is a sin, but I have refrained from drinking at times in my life (Bible College) when it was an issue of submitting to authority (submitting to authority is biblical).

 

That said, at this stage in my life, I would not submit myself to a legalistic authority. There is a lot of teaching in the Bible about caution against legalism, and Jesus was quite outspoken with the Pharisees. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding (no - I don't think it was grape juice - sorry if that offends anybody).

 

I know how hard it is to find a place that feels like home, only to run into something like this.:sad: I hope your family is able to resolve this.

 

Lori

[Jean in Newcastle]

I believe that getting drunk is a sin - not drinking in moderation.

 

Romans 13:13 (New American Standard Bible)

 

Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.

 

2 Corinthians 6:10

 

nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Ephesians 5:18

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

 

I signed a document saying I would not drink when I was in seminary. But I knew that it was for a period of time (3 years) and that I had an educational goal I was trying to reach. I felt like I was not saying that I was agreeing with them that it was wrong - just agreeing to modify my behavior (a bit arbitrarily) for their sake.

 

In a church, I might consider signing it. Or I might consider talking to the pastor and explaining your position. I would promise not to make drinking an issue so as not to make others stumble.

[Jugglin'5]

I would be very hesitant about signing a vow not to drink as a requirement for membership.

[swellmomma]

I have no biblical truth for you. Drinking alcohol is considered a sin in my church However, I still drink a glass of wine at special dinners (basically 3-4 times per year). Along those lines Dancing is also considered a sin in my church, which I didn't actually realize when I got baptized in that church etc. I dance anyway. Like I said I have no biblical truth for you one way or the other. I do know that according to most churches just going about my day to day life I am sinning, so no I do not let things like a drink a couple times a year stop me from joining. Hopefully you can get the answers you are looking for to help you make this decision. Of course I think the best way to make a decision such as this is to pray about it and look for guidance from Christ himself.

[Remudamom]

I would be very hesitant to sign, sounds too legalistic for me.

 

I do drink, although it's been quite a while since I've had a drink, I wouldn't want my church telling me I couldn't have wine with dinner, (or a rum and Coke afterwards if I felt like it.) If I took a vow, I'd stick with it.

[Erica in PA]

Can I ask the christian ladies of this board about their views on alcohol? Here is why: After much searching we finally found a church we love. The teaching is deep and meaningful, the people are warm and loving, the kids love it and best of all, God is honored. Even though we are moving to Malaysia for a while, we would consider this our "home" church and would attend when we are home on visits. So we took the 5 week membership class and we were ready to join until.....

 

one line in the membership document states that we are vowing not to consume alcohol. For the record, I was raised in a no-alcohol home and denomination, dh was not. Neither of us drink very often (like maybe one glass of wine per month at a restaurant or special occasion).We do not keep alcohol in the house. But we also don't really consider consumption of alcohol to be a sin.

 

This a membership covenant, something we take seriously. We are hesitant now to become members because of this one line. On the one hand I feel like "We hardly drink anyways, so no big deal, we just won't drink at all." It really would not affect us that much to not drink. But on the other hand, signing this covenant feels like more than that...like we should "denounce" drinking, see it as sinful behavior, be "against" drinking...and we just don't feel that strongly about it.

 

So I guess my question is do you think consumption of alcohol is a sin and if so can you give me the BIBLICAL reference for your belief (I really need the biblical truth behind what you believe, not just personal feelings on it)? And if you do NOT think alcohol consumption is a sin can you also give me the BIBLICAL reference for your belief? I am more than willing to admit I might be wrong on this topic and would love to hear from those who may know more about it than I.

 

Would something like this keep you from joining? I am so torn.....

 

I don't drink, both because I don't care for alcohol at all and because I think it's wise to abstain from a substance that leads to problems for millions of people in our country, *but,* that said, I would have a difficult time joining a church which made abstaining from alcohol a requirement. I do think that is a legalistic stance that I would not want to give my approval to. I would probably go with my dh and talk to the pastor, tell him it is not our conviction that drinking is a sin, and our belief that it should not be a qualification for membership in a church, and see what he says. If he reaffirmed that it's a black and white issue, and that he really believes that is an appropriate qualification for membership, and we could not in good conscience agree with him after hearing his case, then I would have two choices: continue attending the church without becoming a member, or find another church.

[Nestof3]

The Bible is clear that one should not be DRUNK with wine or given to much wine. It does not preach against it. I think most people who avoid it because they say it gives an appearance of sin. We do not drink wine around such friends, but we do enjoy a glass or two of wine -- just not to the point of drunkenness.

 

My understanding is that their wine was weaker, but it is up to me to make sure I am not sinning by getting drunk.

[phathui5]

Even as a headcovering Mennonite, I don't think I would join a chuch that prohibited consuming alcohol unless God was clearly calling us to do so. It's not so much about my Mike's Hard Lemonade as much as there being no biblical basis at all for not drinking any alcohol.

[skaterbabs]

My beliefs are very similar to Jean's.

 

Drinking is not a sin, drunkenness is. The idea that alcohol in and of itself is evil is one that first became popular a few hundred years ago with the temperance movements of the time.

 

Jesus drank wine, not water, for the simple fact that at the time the availability of clean water was limited. Water was frequently tainted with bacteria. People who drank it were often ill and many died.

[KrissiK]

I think drinking is one of those grey areas. We don't personally drink. We were raised to believe that drinking is sinful, so even moderate drinking has never been part of our lifestyle. I think that (that it's never been a part of our lifestyle), as much as anything, is what keeps us from drinking now. As a Christian, I don't believe drinking in moderation is a sin. But, it can become a sin, as can anything, if we are not careful. I think I would not join a church if they made me sign something that said I would or would not engage in a particular behavior, unless it was specifically spelled out in the Bible - like murder, adultery, etc. But, if it were specifically spelled out in the Bible, you shouldn't be doing it anyway, whether you signed a paper or not.

[secular_mom]

1 Timothy 5:23 (New International Version)

 

 

23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

[Kim in Appalachia]

By including that in their membership covenant they have added to scripture. Membership covenants should include an affirmation of faith. That faith can be defined (such as who is God, admitting your own sinfulness, affirming the death and resurrection of Christ, etc...) But demanding that you adhere to things not commanded in scripture is wrong.

 

Alcohol consumption is never forbidden is scripture. Drunkenness is considered foolish, and is spoken out against. Proverbs 23:20 says, "Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat..." (funny, we don't seem to ignore the gluttonous eaters of meat one. ) Eph. 5:18 says, "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,"

 

But wine could be drunk.

 

Jesus turned water into wine for a feast, John 4:46 "So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine"

 

If consuming any alcohol was sin, Jesus would have been causing everyone at the wedding to sin. (and such a thought would be blasphemy)

 

Paul told Timothy to drink wine, 1 Tim 5:23, "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (A good verse for the support of medical care, since that was the purpose of the alcohol in that verse.) It would seem Timothy felt the need to avoid alcohol, but Paul urges him to drink it for his health's sake.

 

Titus 2:3, Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. (love this verse, not too much wine, but every woman is going to need some. :D)

 

I think the most important scripture in regards to this issue is Col 3:20-23

 

If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch†22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

 

The bottom line, for me, is that prohibition of drinking is not one of the 10 commandments. Like the verse says, it may look wise and religious, but it has no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

 

Those are just a few thoughts, quickly off the top of my head. I don't mean to offend anyone, and I am not offended if anyone feels the need to never touch a drop of alcohol (for whatever reason). I have a huge problem with a Christian church making it a requirement when it is not in scripture.

[Liz CA]

Yes, this is my philosophy too.

If alcohol becomes a problem or you think it may be distracting you from dealing with something, then yes - it needs to stop. And for some people it means they can never touch anything alcoholic. But I don't see it as a general rule that applies to everybody.

 

I have never been able to drink more than about 1/2 glass of wine before I can feel it so I stop right there. I don't drink to get intoxicated which is what the Bible warns against but there is no objection to drinking in moderation when you are not "drunk with wine."

[Kelli in TN]

Oh. My. Look for a PM from me as soon as I can formulate my thoughts.

[ChristusG]

I do not drink. I have never ever had any taste of wine, alcohol, beer, etc. Never. Neither has my DH. I was not raised around anyone who drank. My parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc, did not drink. Therefore, I am not comfortable around those who drink. I think it can be a very bad thing and MANY people abuse drinking.

 

However, I do not believe it is a sin, as long as you are drinking in moderation, infrequently. If you come to rely on it daily, I believe it is a sin. That being said.....the Bible does say that we, as Christians, should abstain from any appearance of evil. So what if your non-believing , unchurched friend saw you having a cold one in a restaurant? What would they think? Would they think "oooh, look at that Christian, I can't believe they are drinking!" If so, it would be an appearance of evil. So for me, I think that if a Christian feels the need to drink, they should do so in their own home. That's just me. I have strong convictions about drinking, and I believe that since my convictions about it are so strong, then it would be a sin for ME, PERSONALLY to drink.

[mommaduck]

Yep, it would concern me and I would not join...

 

1) it's extra-biblical and contra-biblical

 

2) communion

[SonshineLearner]

Wine was fermented, no way around it. Not having a place to keep juice cool, would cause it to be fermented. Strength etc is up for discussion...

Carrie

[Jami]

Well since I think there will be wine in heaven...I wouldn't sign it. God seems to think it's okay. :-)

 

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. Matthew 26:26-29"

[Aubrey]

That being said.....the Bible does say that we, as Christians, should abstain from any appearance of evil. So what if your non-believing , unchurched friend saw you having a cold one in a restaurant? What would they think? Would they think "oooh, look at that Christian, I can't believe they are drinking!" If so, it would be an appearance of evil. So for me, I think that if a Christian feels the need to drink, they should do so in their own home. That's just me. I have strong convictions about drinking, and I believe that since my convictions about it are so strong, then it would be a sin for ME, PERSONALLY to drink.

 

I think this is problematic. First, while we're supposed to refrain from the *appearance* of sin, that doesn't mean it's ok to do something that looks like sin in private! If someone found out, that would look even worse!

 

But I also don't think that we should determine our morality by what people might think. Just as one person might think a Christian w/ a glass of wine at a restaurant is sinning, another might think that a Christian *w/out* a glass of wine at a restaurant is being self-righteous. It's just not a determining factor.

 

On the contrary, I'd hope that seeing a Christian w/ a glass of wine might open up an opportunity to talk about Jesus. The one who's not a Christian says, "Hey! I thought Christians couldn't drink!" The Christian says, "Jesus drank! Come sit down & let's talk more!"

 

There are times not to drink, sure. But I agree, the requirement to *never* drink is extra-Biblical, & I believe it turns more people *off* to the Gospel than *on.* Not that we need wine to sell Jesus, but that people who can see through the legalism won't be able to see the life.

[Jugglin'5]

That being said.....the Bible does say that we, as Christians, should abstain from any appearance of evil. So what if your non-believing , unchurched friend saw you having a cold one in a restaurant? What would they think? Would they think "oooh, look at that Christian, I can't believe they are drinking!" If so, it would be an appearance of evil.

 

Then again, I know of unbelievers who know the Bible well enough to know that across-the-board, strict prohibitions against drinking are not biblical. And that is a turnoff to the faith for them. It makes the church look hypocritical. Like a previous poster said, teetotalism is a product of the modern temperance movement. It was virtually unknown before the mid 19th century. It is a bad American cultural export.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Even as a headcovering Mennonite, I don't think I would join a chuch that prohibited consuming alcohol unless God was clearly calling us to do so. It's not so much about my Mike's Hard Lemonade as much as there being no biblical basis at all for not drinking any alcohol.

 

OK, the mental image I have of a "headcovering Mennonite" with her Friday night Mike's really brought me a smile.

[Blossom'sGirl]

I have no problem with drinking alcohol. I do believe we should not drink to excess but a glass of wine with dinner or a beer after mowing is fine. I believe the church oversteps its boundaries when taking away free spirt led will and making its own laws. I don't even believe in formal church membership so I am a bit of a rebel.

 

That said, there was a period of time in my life when I firmly believe God forbid alcohol for me and looking back I am glad I obeyed.

[mommaduck]

OK, the mental image I have of a "headcovering Mennonite" with her Friday night Mike's really brought me a smile.

There are various groups of conservative Anabaptists that are fine with moderate consumption of alcohol and use wine for communion...and of course you have those that forbid it as well.

[Natalieclare]

I have no problem with drinking alcohol. I do believe we should not drink to excess but a glass of wine with dinner or a beer after mowing is fine. I believe the church oversteps its boundaries when taking away free spirt led will and making its own laws. I don't even believe in formal church membership so I am a bit of a rebel.

 

That said' date=' there was a period of time in my life when I firmly believe God forbid alcohol for me and looking back I am glad I obeyed.[/quote']

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I could have written this exact post. :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Can I ask the christian ladies of this board about their views on alcohol? Here is why: After much searching we finally found a church we love. The teaching is deep and meaningful, the people are warm and loving, the kids love it and best of all, God is honored. Even though we are moving to Malaysia for a while, we would consider this our "home" church and would attend when we are home on visits. So we took the 5 week membership class and we were ready to join until.....

 

one line in the membership document states that we are vowing not to consume alcohol. For the record, I was raised in a no-alcohol home and denomination, dh was not. Neither of us drink very often (like maybe one glass of wine per month at a restaurant or special occasion).We do not keep alcohol in the house. But we also don't really consider consumption of alcohol to be a sin.

 

This a membership covenant, something we take seriously. We are hesitant now to become members because of this one line. On the one hand I feel like "We hardly drink anyways, so no big deal, we just won't drink at all." It really would not affect us that much to not drink. But on the other hand, signing this covenant feels like more than that...like we should "denounce" drinking, see it as sinful behavior, be "against" drinking...and we just don't feel that strongly about it.

 

So I guess my question is do you think consumption of alcohol is a sin and if so can you give me the BIBLICAL reference for your belief (I really need the biblical truth behind what you believe, not just personal feelings on it)? And if you do NOT think alcohol consumption is a sin can you also give me the BIBLICAL reference for your belief? I am more than willing to admit I might be wrong on this topic and would love to hear from those who may know more about it than I.

 

Would something like this keep you from joining? I am so torn.....

 

I once turned down a teaching job with a Christian school in part because they required their teachers not to drink. I went around with the principal a little on this and then just decided that it was an indication that this school and I would not be a terribly good fit.

 

Off the top of my head (and sadly without references)

Wine was part of the program of sacrifices, along with various animals, incense and grain offerings. I don't think that God would require the growing, production and ceremonial offering of something that he was going to then forbid.

Melchizedek brought bread and wine to Abram/Abraham. He is labeled a Priest of the Most High God and is commended in Hebrews.

Isaac asks his son to bring him wine before blessing him (There is a lot in this family unit to not admire. But I think that this is showing wine to have been part of the ceremony of taking food from the hands of his son before blessing him, not that Isaac was drunk and being taken in.) The blessing includes a call for God to grant the son an abundance of grain and new wine.

Levites are told not to drink wine in the meeting tent. They aren't told to abstain from wine completely, nor is wine off limits for the rest of Israel.

In Numbers, there is an explaination of the conditions of a Nazarite vow. They abstain from wine during the vow period, but ALSO from grape juice, grapes and raisins.

Deuteronomy 14 has a description of clean and unclean foods that mentions several types of birds by name, but puts wine and other fermented drink in the category of things people can buy with their tithe to enjoy before the Lord.

 

I'll stop here, I just don't think this prohibition holds up. I would ask about it.

I personally would not be able to sign it unless there were a really good reason for it. For example, a Christian congregation in Malaysia might prohibit alcohol in order not to provide a stumbling block to sharing the Gospel with their neighbors. A congregation in Russia might choose to abstain because alcoholism is such an issue that they wanted to set an example of life without alcohol. But these are special cases and not applicable to most churches in the US. If this were a significant issue for membership, then I would not be able to join. And sadly, it would probably tinge how I perceived the church.

[Heather in Neverland]

These responses have been very helpful. I've been berating myself over this...like what's the big deal? So I don't drink any more, so what? But it just feels....ummmm....wrong. My family and friends sometimes have a drink when we are out. Should I "frown" on that now? It just feels like if I am going to sign a covenant about it, then I should feel very strongly about it and I don't.

 

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

Up until now I have agreed with pretty much every word out of his mouth in his sermons but that one threw me for a loop.

[sunflowerlady]

You have gotten many good Biblical answers, so I have nothing to add except a New Testament reference.

 

In 1 Timothy , we see the qualifications of pastors and deacons.

 

The deacons are "...not given to much wine, not greedy of filty lucre."

 

It does not say no wine at all.

 

Now there are some who say the references to wine really mean grape juice.:001_huh: Yes, I used to belong to one of those churches , and my current pastor may believe that also. I am not sure.

 

Anyway, if was just grape juice, why the warnings against too much for the deacons?

 

For my dh and I , we would not join that church if they required us to commit to that. If you like the church, you could still attend and enjoy the worship, fellowship, and teaching without formally becoming members.

 

I hope you and your dh find a solution that works out for you.:)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

 

 

OK - now this smacks even more of legalism to me because it isn't even tied to consumption.

 

But I did smile a bit because I had to buy snuff once for our lawn (a pesticide thing) and I sure felt funny asking for it at the store!

[LisaNY]

I would go to the leadership and ask them why this is a requirement for membership. Their answer may help you to decide if this is, or is not the church you would like to attend.

[mommaduck]

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

 

 

Though I agree that she should not have just gone out and bought the beer against her husband's wishes (it's not like it would have been sin if she hadn't bought it)...

 

but just his decree and wording has me saying one thing:

 

Run far, run fast, and don't look back.

[AuntieM]

If drinking wine was a sin, Paul would not have told Timothy to have a little now and then. Drunkenness is the sin. Many choose not to drink so that they may not cause another to stumble, which is admirable, but I do not believe that the Scriptures adamantly forbid it. The Bible does seem to distinguish between wine and strong drink, so I do believe there is a difference, if only a perceptual one, between sipping a glass of wine and tossing back a shot of tequila.

 

My bigger issue would be the membership covenant. If you have ever done a study on Biblical covenants, you may also be leery about entering into one. When God or any other person in the Bible cut a covenant, it was serious business involving the shedding of blood, the exchange of promises, and often even the calling down of curses upon those who broke the covenant. Think about it - your marriage is a covenant, your salvation relationship with God is as a covenant - would you really put church membership in the same category? Personally, I would not. Just my own thoughts... We have gone through membership classes only to back out when presented with a covenant on the last day of class. We can be committed members of a local body without such an agreement.

[sunflowerlady]

These responses have been very helpful. I've been berating myself over this...like what's the big deal? So I don't drink any more, so what? But it just feels....ummmm....wrong. My family and friends sometimes have a drink when we are out. Should I "frown" on that now? It just feels like if I am going to sign a covenant about it, then I should feel very strongly about it and I don't.

 

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

Up until now I have agreed with pretty much every word out of his mouth in his sermons but that one threw me for a loop.

 

Ok, I just saw this story. That is really strange.:001_huh: No church is perfect, of course. You will have to decide if you can overlook that type of thing in his sermons.

[OnTheBrink]

 

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

 

OH Brother.

 

Run, far and fast.

[anewday]

I have heard that some believe that the alcohol that Christ turned into wine was not "alcoholic"...they argue about "new wine" and such.

 

I personally feel it's a huge stretch, especially since clearly it could make someone drunk...

 

That said, I would not join. Christ Himself instituted wine in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. While it is not the element that does anything, I wouldn't take it lightly that that is exactly what He instituted us to drink "in remembrance of Me"....

 

I couldn't take a vow to deny consumption of an element Christ Himself commanded us to remember Him with.

[Nakia]

I can't really add to the great responses and scripture references that you have been given, but I just wanted to say that I do not think it is a sin to drink in moderation . I go out with my girlfriends a few times a year, and I love to have a margarita. YUMMY!!!

 

Would I join that church? I don't know... I despise legalism and extra biblical rules, so probably not.

[Pip]

Jesus's first public miracle involved alcohol.

 

If you have a personal conviction against alcohol that is one thing. If you are around someone who is an alcoholic you should try to support them by not drinking. The Bible condemns drunkeness, not alcohol.

 

This seems a bit legalistic.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I have heard that some believe that the alcohol that Christ turned into wine was not "alcoholic"...they argue about "new wine" and such.

 

I personally feel it's a huge stretch, especially since clearly it could make someone drunk...

 

That said, I would not join. Christ Himself instituted wine in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. While it is not the element that does anything, I wouldn't take it lightly that that is exactly what He instituted us to drink "in remembrance of Me"....

 

I couldn't take a vow to deny consumption of an element Christ Himself commanded us to remember Him with.

 

 

There are some people who attend churches in my faith group that hold to this teaching, not just for Jesus's miracle but for all the wine mentioned in the NT. Forgive me, but I think it is a bunch of bunk.

 

Grape juice begins to ferment almost immediately as the grapes are crushed, because the yeast is present on the grape skins. You can have wine in 4- 12 days. Grapes were not harvested year round. That would have been the only way to have a continuous supply of grape juice. It becomes ridiculous when you think about how much wine was consumed, to think that that was all juice kept non-alcoholic by some mysterious process which has been lost to us.

 

Jesus made a point that new wine is not poured into old wineskins because they would burst. They burst because of the formation of gases from the fermentation process and the old wineskins are not elastic enough to take the pressure.

 

If you look up Welch's grape juice you will see that a minister (Welch himself :-)in the 1800's invented the process for bottling grape juice before it fermented. He did this because he wanted a year round availability of non-fermented "fruit of the vine" for communion, which was not previously possible.

 

It's obvious to me that drunkenness is the sin, not drinking. However, I would hesitate to become a member of any congregation that would make me sign a piece of paper as a prerequisite to becoming a member.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Virginia Dawn

[Tutor]

My dh has had to face this very issue. We do not believe that consuming alcohol is a sin - only drinking to excess or unhealthy attitudes toward alcohol are. However, my dh's last job was at a Christian school that had as part of its employee contract that school employees would not consume alcohol. He signed the contract because we needed the job. He did not drink alcohol (except for Lord's Supper - that was an exception to the "no alcohol" rule) while he was employed there. He signed the contract voluntarily knowing that he would not be permitted to drink, so he refrained. We feel it is a liberty issue for each Christian to decide for himself. (I do not drink because there is a history of alcoholism in my family and I believe that there is a strong genetic pull in that direction, so I do not think the occasional glass of wine is worth any possible risk.)

 

Personally, I would not belong to a church that had prohibitions on consuming alcohol if they tried to base their requirement on a Scriptural mandate of alcohol being forbidden. I feel (personal opinion) that is a wrong interpretation (just my own opinion) and I would be wary of their interpretations of Scripture in general because of that. However, if they felt that it was best for their particular congregation, for whatever reason, I might join if I felt that it was the most Scripturally sound option available to us. In that instance, I would have no problem not keeping alcohol in the house, but I would also not feel that I would be compelled to denounce alcohol consumption on a braod basis.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Tutor
typos

[Moxie]

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

 

 

This creepy story would send me running to the hills before the alcohol thing would. If he really believed his wife was sinning, why hang her sins out there for the world?? Blech.

[Peek a Boo]

i haven't read the replies yet, so here goes:

 

Two different issues:

 

1. Is drinking fermented beverages a sin at all, and

 

2. Should you officially join a church if there's anything you disagree with.

 

===============================================

1.

 

"oinos" can mean unfermented or fermented depending on context.

 

kinda like "medicine":

If i told my husband that my stomach was hurting and to pick up some medicine on the way home, I'd be pretty pissed if he picked up a tube of triple antibiotic.

 

I like the way this seventh day adventist guy explains it: he uses secular and scriptural points to make his case. be sure to read ALL of the available articles --there's a LOT there. The intro didn't do much for me :001_rolleyes:

 

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/5.html

 

I do believe that drinking alcohol is less than ideal. Not sure if i would equate even a sip of it as a sinful gesture, but i do think the guy above has made a pretty solid case. I'm "on the fence" so to speak, so I would REALLY appreciate SOMEONE reading through that guy's online articles and discussing the particulars w/ me.

 

--------------

2.

 

Because of my "on the fence" stance, if I were to find a GREAT church that fit practically every other conviction that i liked [bible studies, congregational involvement, lots of living the faith, strong leadership, discipleship, accountability in and out of church, etc] then i could probably submit to that one thing. If I am going to trust them to shepherd me, I would at least be willing to listen to their case and try to understand their stance.

 

Have you discussed this w/ them? Asked for any literature to explain it more fully? and I'd want a BOOK, not a little 8 page tract, lol.

 

Do they insist that you agree w/ this? Do they expect every member to accept every point of doctrine, or do they expect that many will set aside some points?

 

ok, now I'm off to read the replies :)

[Catwoman]

He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

Well, I wouldn't have signed the agreement anyway, because I don't think anyone has the right to tell me what I can and can't do in my own home (and I don't even drink,) but after reading the comment about the wife falling into sin by disobeying her husband, I would never, ever join that church.

 

I should clarify, though, that I would never even remotely be considered a submissive wife, so comments like that always bother me.

 

Hey, maybe the pastor's wife was only saying she used the beer on the lawn -- maybe she secretly drank it all so she could forget about him and his judgmental attitude for a while... (just an idea... ;))

 

Seriously, though, I'm sorry to hear that this church may not work out for you and your family, as it's clear you really wanted it to be the right one for you.

 

Cat

Edited April 17, 2009 by Catwoman
typos, as usual!

[JenniferB]

I vote for "would not join". We don't drink much, but we like to have a glass of red with our steak or prime rib. I don't think we could give that up, and we wouldn't want to lie and say we would never drink.

 

I haven't read all the replys, but I would suggest attending the church without joining - is that possible? :confused:

[Heather in Neverland]

Have you discussed this w/ them? Asked for any literature to explain it more fully? and I'd want a BOOK, not a little 8 page tract, lol.

 

Do they insist that you agree w/ this? Do they expect every member to accept every point of doctrine, or do they expect that many will set aside some points?

 

ok, now I'm off to read the replies :)

 

It was brought up in the membership class and he explained it that although he knows that some do not feel drinking is wrong, this church feels it is and if we become members we are agreeing to abide by the church's doctrine on this. He told us we are more than welcome to continue attending and not become members if we do not agree with this teaching. But if we are not members, we can never teach sunday school or a bible study or work in the nursery or in AWANA, etc. We can attend but no leadership positions.:glare:

[Heather in Neverland]

Hey, maybe the pastor's wife was only saying she used the beer on the lawn -- maybe she secretly drank it all so she could forget about him and his judgmental attitude for a while... (just an idea... ;))

 

 

Cat

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Tutor]

That being said.....the Bible does say that we, as Christians, should abstain from any appearance of evil..

 

My understanding is that this is an incorrect translation of the passage. That it should read "Avoid evil in all its appearances." This completely changes the meaning of the passage. Any language scholars out there who have studied this passage?

[Peek a Boo]

"appearance of sin"--

 

I liked the other explanation of this.....

 

we are to avoid every appearance of sin --even when it looks good right and salutory.

 

Volunteering at church is great, but if it is detrimental to your role at home, it is evil.

 

Spending lots of time w/ your spouse is great, but if you are leaving the kids w/ a nanny 24/7 to do it it is evil.

 

So look closely and discern whether the opportunity is truly a good thing, or is something evil masquerading as a "good" opportunity.

 

Avoid EVERY appearance of evil :)

[Peek a Boo]

It was brought up in the membership class and he explained it that although he knows that some do not feel drinking is wrong, this church feels it is and if we become members we are agreeing to abide by the church's doctrine on this. He told us we are more than welcome to continue attending and not become members if we do not agree with this teaching. But if we are not members, we can never teach sunday school or a bible study or work in the nursery or in AWANA, etc. We can attend but no leadership positions.:glare:

 

I would not join unless they could convince you Biblically of the position. I would encourage you to read the chapters at the link I offered, if for no other reason than I can't find a single person that is willing to actually READ it!! everyone else reads like the first chapter and decides their mind is already made up.....

 

but like someone else mentioned, i have a thing against "official" memberships too.

 

Feel free to do at-home Bible studies, Sunday afternoon luncheons at your place or some restaurant, and backyard VBS weeks....and invite teh families you know. ;)

 

eta:

and yeah- that disobedient wife thing is kinda creepy. Ask him what he's done to submit to HER lately. LOL!

[Deana FL]

OK, the mental image I have of a "headcovering Mennonite" with her Friday night Mike's really brought me a smile.

 

 

I can't wait for Heaven ~ let's all join in having some NEW WINE!!! WOOHOO!!

[katemary63]

Didn't read any of the other answers, but this is what we believe and really, it's as plain as the nose on your face ( TO ME) - Drinking is fine, getting drunk is not. I think it's silly to try to say that the wine in Biblical days was not alcholic - just nonsense. People drank wine daily. It's normal and ordinary. But over doing it, just like overdoing ANYTHING is a loss of self control and THAT is a sin.

 

For the record: I am 45 and have never had a drink of alcohol in my entire life. I've tasted other people's drinks - hated it and never had my own. I just have no desire. My husband drinks bear, wine or wine coolers about once a month or maybe even less. But if he decided to drink wine more often as a beverage with a meal or more regularily have a beer on a hot day, I'd have no problem with it.

 

I would DEFINATELY NOT sign a statement of faith promising not to drink and I don't even drink. Just wouldn't do it on principle. I don't believe in making up rules. We have a huge latitude of freedom in Christ as Paul states. No rules other then the 10 comandments. No rules against playing cards, dancing, girls in pants, drinking, what to eat or not eat, kinds of music, etc.....just don't like lists of rules other then the original 10!

 

I respect others who have decided for themselves to refrain from alcohol and some of these other things. But it's just not for us to live by so many do's and don'ts.

Edited April 17, 2009 by katemary63