Another question spurred on by Duggar's wedding show (cc)...

[StaceyinLA]

So, here's another thing that I have a question about based on comments heard while watching the Duggar's son's wedding.

 

Basically, when discussing the reception, the bride's father was condemning the dancing and stuff (not surprised), but then, he made a comment about how when Jesus turned the water into wine at a wedding, that wasn't really wine - it was grape juice. I am not surprised at all that they wouldn't be serving wine at this wedding, but I AM surprised that he spoke this as if it were total and complete fact when I know many disagree.

 

Can you Bible scholars tell me whether the general consensus really is that it was turned into juice and not actual wine. I mean, I've heard much discussion on this in our highly judgmental hs group. I believe that it was, indeed, wine, and it was special, which was why He saved it until last for the more special guests. However, I want to know what the actual translation REALLY means in its original language.

 

Just some more food for thought...

[Pamela H in Texas]

or believers in NT times, "wine"(oinos) was a general word that could be used for two distinctly different grape beverages, fermented and unfermented wine.

 

From what I read, it depends on what side of the coin you fall. There are arguments both ways.

 

ETA: There are many things that people say don't really matter and we'll find out "one day." Most of the time, I disagree. For example, it DOES matter (John 17:3) whether or not the only true God is 3 persons in 1 (Trinity) or not. But in this case, I would think it does not. Drunkenness is a sin, but there is no indication that ALL drinking is regardless of whether or not it was grape juice or closer to what we consider wine. But I don't see how whether it's wine or grape juice is an issue directly tied to spirituality.

 

Here is a point you may find interesting though:

 

About Jesus turning it to wine. The very context shows it could not have been grape juice, as some would claim. The religious generation of his day accused Jesus of excess when eating and drinking, saying, “Look! a man gluttonous and given to drinking wine.” Could this charge have been lodged against him if it involved unfermented grape juice? And unfermenting drink does not cause wineskins to burst. (Scriptural references: John 2:1-11; Matt. 11:19; Luke 5:37-39)

Edited January 27, 2009 by 2J5M9K
clarifying

[Carol in Cal.]

A. The Bible says so.

B. The steward is quoted as being surprised that the best wine was not brought out first, before everyone was too tipsy to appreciate it. (Paraphrase)

 

The whole grape juice thing really, really annoys me. It is one of the most egregious examples of deciding what you want and then making the Bible match that I know of on the conservative Christian end. And since the conservative Christian camp (of which I count myself a member) is ALWAYS harping on the liberal Christian camp for reading whatever they want into the Bible, it makes the CC's seem very hypocritical to me.

[SonshineLearner]

Wine, it was wine...not juice. I'm sure that there were words for both. It may not be the same volume as wines now, since it was "newer" wines...but if it was just juice...would they have been surprised that the best wine was served last? Hmmmm

Of course, if you want to think that all wine is bad...that's fine...but Jesus didn't. I wouldn't want anyone to be a drunk on my account, but that's in knowing if you can be moderate about things including drinks.

:-)

Edited January 27, 2009 by NayfiesMama
Oops...Hi Carol in CA. I agree:-)

[StaceyinLA]

eating is eating and being gluttonous is a sin. Drinking is drinking, but being drunk is a sin. I have no personal issue with drinking. I certainly believe if it is something one struggles with then it is not for them.

 

However, it just totally frustrates me when things like this are taken out of context and adapted to fit what someone wants it to be. Many of the folks I know that are totally anti-alcohol think nothing of having every other thing they do revolve around food and potlucks. It just bothers me.

 

Of course, I revolve everything I do around eating good food AND drinking good wine, so what does that tell ya?? :tongue_smilie:

[Free Indeed]

From what I read, it depends on what side of the coin you fall. There are arguments both ways.

 

ETA: There are many things that people say don't really matter and we'll find out "one day." Most of the time, I disagree. For example, it DOES matter (John 17:3) whether or not the only true God is 3 persons in 1 (Trinity) or not. But in this case, I would think it does not. Drunkenness is a sin, but there is no indication that ALL drinking is regardless of whether or not it was grape juice or closer to what we consider wine. But I don't see how whether it's wine or grape juice is an issue directly tied to spirituality.

 

Here is a point you may find interesting though:

 

About Jesus turning it to wine. The very context shows it could not have been grape juice, as some would claim. The religious generation of his day accused Jesus of excess when eating and drinking, saying, “Look! a man gluttonous and given to drinking wine.†Could this charge have been lodged against him if it involved unfermented grape juice? And unfermenting drink does not cause wineskins to burst. (Scriptural references: John 2:1-11; Matt. 11:19; Luke 5:37-39)

:iagree:

[Pamela H in Texas]

eating is eating and being gluttonous is a sin. Drinking is drinking, but being drunk is a sin.

 

Yeah, but the religious leaders of the day found all sorts of bogus reasons to criticize Jesus.

[Susan in KY]

...is to substitute the word "grape juice" and see if the passage still makes sense. Most of the time, it sounds so ridiculous to use "grape juice," it will make you at least giggle.

 

I truly don't understand the compulsive need on the part of some to insist it wasn't real wine. Something I was once told by some unremembered, nameless (read: unvetted :001_smile:) source is that using wine was one way to ensure the liquid was good to drink—as opposed to plain water, which, without boiling, could harbor all sorts of nasty things to make one ill. Plus it was supposed to taste good, but I have my disagreements with that opinion as well.:tongue_smilie:

[Mommy22alyns]

Thank you for bringing this up and thanks for the responses!

 

I loved the show but I did go :001_huh: and :glare: at that comment.

[Marsha]

I watched the Duggars show and noticed that too.

 

I believe if it meant "grape juice" instead of "wine", then it would say it.

[newbie]

In the bible it says wine. But, Jesus spoke Aramaic, so it would be interesting to find out word for wine and word for grape juice.

 

I tried looking up, but could not find.

[Mommyof4ks]

The Bible says wine, so IMHO it was wine. For him to state something as fact that clearly is not a 'closed case' topic is a bit strange.

[Pamela H in Texas]

In the bible it says wine. But, Jesus spoke Aramaic, so it would be interesting to find out word for wine and word for grape juice.

 

During that time, most people could probably speak both Aramaic and Greek. And Jews may also have spoken a later version of Hebrew which would have had similarities to the old Hebrew and the Aramaic. We can't be sure about whether Jesus spoke Greek (or Latin) but we know that he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew (what version has been up for debate).

 

There is no telling the exact word JESUS said, again probably in Aramaic, because the Gospels were written in Greek. So then we're back to the fact that the Greek word could mean either fermented or unfermented.

 

So we have to use the other things we know about the context as has already been outlined in this thread.

 

BTW, I think this thread is VERY interesting! I did some additional research because of it and discussed it with hubby. NEAT STUFF :)

[KristenS]

Wow, I'd never heard that version. (And I didn't watch the show.)

 

Thanks for posting. I can say I learned something new today!

 

(FWIW, I also think 'wine' makes a lot more sense in the story context.)

[*********]

A. The Bible says so.

B. The steward is quoted as being surprised that the best wine was not brought out first, before everyone was too tipsy to appreciate it. (Paraphrase)

 

The whole grape juice thing really, really annoys me. It is one of the most egregious examples of deciding what you want and then making the Bible match that I know of on the conservative Christian end. And since the conservative Christian camp (of which I count myself a member) is ALWAYS harping on the liberal Christian camp for reading whatever they want into the Bible, it makes the CC's seem very hypocritical to me.

 

:iagree: Um, Yeah. What she said.

[Ria]

Oh, yeah, the grape juice argument. I've heard it from a pastor, no less. There are those who make a claim that alcohol did not exist then...that it was just grape juice or only faintly fermented stuff (faintly, just to "purify" the water). Sorry...I don't agree...at Pentacost people thought the apostles were drunk. Drunk. That means wine. Real wine.

 

Ria

[sunflowerlady]

Yeah, I heard the same thing at an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church we used to attend. They have the belief that drinking any alcohol is a sin, so they go back and say the Bible wine was really grape juice.

 

One sermon I heard on the topic was the largest stretching of scripture I had heard in a long time.:glare:

 

Wine makes sense, grape juice doesn't.

[dawn of ns]

Wine. Grape juice makes no sense.. Wine was important not simply as a alchohol but as a safe drink. It's got rich symbolism in terms of life and hospitality, especially when paired with bread.

 

I'm with Carol in CA on this one. Total silliness.

[KarenNC]

It has always intrigued me that some Biblical literalists insist that every word in the Bible must be taken literally with no room for looking at cultural context, changes in meaning over time, etc to influence what the word meant both at the time it was written and today-----*except* for the word "wine". My dad holds this position.

 

My question usually is, "If the word 'wine' doesn't truly mean 'wine' as we understand it, which *other* words in the text don't truly mean what we currently believe they mean? How do you tell the difference between the ones that are accurate and those that are not?" To me, it has a great many theological implications.

[KarenNC]

Oh, yeah, the grape juice argument. I've heard it from a pastor, no less. There are those who make a claim that alcohol did not exist then...that it was just grape juice or only faintly fermented stuff (faintly, just to "purify" the water). Sorry...I don't agree...at Pentacost people thought the apostles were drunk. Drunk. That means wine. Real wine.

 

Ria

 

Were those who made the claim that alcohol did not exist consistent and believe that plain grape juice made Noah lay unclothed and passed out in his tent (Gen. 9:21)? That all the references in the Hebrew Scriptures to people getting drunk were also euphemisms for too much grape juice? That all the other references to wine and drunkeness in surrounding cultures such as the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc were also incorrect? Or do they claim that at some point between the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures alcohol disappeared from the planet without that earning a passing mention in Scripture?

[dawn of ns]

It has always intrigued me that some Biblical literalists insist that every word in the Bible must be taken literally with no room for looking at cultural context, changes in meaning over time, etc to influence what the word meant both at the time it was written and today-----*except* for the word "wine". My dad holds this position.

 

I've found that dissonance often goes beyond just the word wine. I've been accused of wishy-washyness over biblical interpretation when I was a liberal Christian but as Carol in CA pointed out, there's a lot in conservative cirles as well.

 

My question usually is, "If the word 'wine' doesn't truly mean 'wine' as we understand it, which *other* words in the text don't truly mean what we currently believe they mean? How do you tell the difference between the ones that are accurate and those that are not?" To me, it has a great many theological implications.

 

You don't know the half of it. When you start getting into mistranslations ("virgin" in Isaiah 7:14 should actually read "young woman" for instance) and genre confusions (prophecy taken as foretelling the future) it gets real fun. :D And the more you start to know about the bible and translations and languages and editing and such...The more questions you have.

[Susan A.]

Thanks for posting this. We noticed that as well last night on the show and had quite the discussion. We agree that it was wine, but we talked more about why people think it would be grape juice. It even spurred my 15yo daughter into doing some research on the subject!

[Melissa in NC]

I have not read all the replies but here is my Chemical Engineering degree view on this matter.

 

Water at that time went stale very quickly. It picked up all sorts of bad bugs that range from making you sick to killing you. Place a cup of water on the counter for a day or two and see what happens.

 

Beer and wine have such a pH adjustment that most of the bad things will not grow. After working in the beer industry for 5 years I know for a fact that only two bugs live in beer and they may give you a tummy ache at the worst.

 

Why did the Pilgrims come ashore in Mass. instead of their original destination of Jamestown?? They ran out of beer, meaning that they did not have drinkable water on board. Pirates ships paid their men in daily tankard rations of rum . Alcohol as drinking sources were the ONLY way you could carry water over long distances.

 

Grape juice that is not pasteurized, as in the day of Jesus, and sitting at room temperature will pick up airborne yeast and begin to ferment. Even today, grape juice left at room temp for a few days will start to ferment into wine. This is the same process used for starter sourdough yeast.

 

Also, the wine of that day was not purposely fermented the the alcohol levels of today. It would take real effort to get drunk.

 

So, did Jesus drink wine? Of course he did. But he did not pop the cork on a fine Merlot. He drank what EVERYONE else in his town was drinking.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Melissa in NC

[Holly IN]

Well I didn't read any comments on this thread. DH and I believe it was actually wine that Jesus turned water into. Why would the teachers of the law call Jesus a drunk??

 

We also believe that Jesus did drink wine. There are too many evidences in scripture that drinking wine is not wrong but getting drunk is. Also making grape juice technology didn't happen until around 1800s (something like that).

 

Wine is wine!!

 

Holly

[Holly IN]

During that time, most people could probably speak both Aramaic and Greek. And Jews may also have spoken a later version of Hebrew which would have had similarities to the old Hebrew and the Aramaic. We can't be sure about whether Jesus spoke Greek (or Latin) but we know that he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew (what version has been up for debate).

 

NEAT STUFF :)

 

 

 

Actually most of the Jews only spoke Greek. A lot of them weren't taught the Aramaic language. That was why the teachers of the law were shocked that Jesus knew the language at the young age of 12 with no formal schooling in that time. That language was reserved for the teachers of the law during that time.

 

Holly

[Karenciavo]

The same word is used in the Greek for what John the Baptist did not drink and what Jesus did drink, oinos.

 

Luke 1:15:

for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

 

εσται γαρ μεγας ενωπιον κυριου και οινον και σικερα ου μη πιη και πνευματος αγιου πλησθησεται ετι εκ κοιλιας μητρος αυτου

 

John 2:10

and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

 

και λεγει αυτω πας ανθρωπος πρωτον τον καλον οινον τιθησιν και οταν μεθυσθωσιν τον ελασσω συ τετηρηκας τον καλον οινον εως αρτι

[FO4UR]

I have not read all the replies but here is my Chemical Engineering degree view on this matter.

 

Water at that time went stale very quickly. It picked up all sorts of bad bugs that range from making you sick to killing you. Place a cup of water on the counter for a day or two and see what happens.

 

Beer and wine have such a pH adjustment that most of the bad things will not grow. After working in the beer industry for 5 years I know for a fact that only two bugs live in beer and they may give you a tummy ache at the worst.

 

Why did the Pilgrims come ashore in Mass. instead of their original destination of Jamestown?? They ran out of beer, meaning that meant they did not have drinkable water on board. Pirates ships paid their men in daily tankard rations of rum . Alcohol as drinking sources were the ONLY way you could carry water over long distances.

 

Grape juice that is not pasteurized, as in the day of Jesus, and sitting at room temperature will pick up airborne yeast and begin to ferment. Even today, grape juice left at room temp for a few days will start to ferment into wine. This is the same process used for starter sourdough yeast.

 

Also, the wine of that day was not purposely fermented the the alcohol levels of today. It would take real effort to get drunk.

 

So, did Jesus drink wine? Of course he did. But he did not pop the cork on a fine Merlot. He drank what EVERYONE else in his town was drinking.

 

 

I agree. Yes, it was wine, but wine wasn't what it is today.

[Kate CA]

The same word is used in the Greek for what John the Baptist did not drink and what Jesus did drink, oinos.

 

Luke 1:15:

for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

 

εσται γαρ μεγας ενωπιον κυριου και οινον και σικερα ου μη πιη και πνευματος αγιου πλησθησεται ετι εκ κοιλιας μητρος αυτου

 

John 2:10

and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

 

και λεγει αυτω πας ανθρωπος πρωτον τον καλον οινον τιθησιν και οταν μεθυσθωσιν τον ελασσω συ τετηρηκας τον καλον οινον εως αρτι

 

Thank you, Karen, for sharing the real word of God so that any can see what is the truth of the matter.

[KarenNC]

You don't know the half of it. When you start getting into mistranslations ("virgin" in Isaiah 7:14 should actually read "young woman" for instance) and genre confusions (prophecy taken as foretelling the future) it gets real fun. :D And the more you start to know about the bible and translations and languages and editing and such...The more questions you have.

 

Actually, I know quite a bit more than just the "half of it" ;)

[Lizzie in Ma]

Of course, I revolve everything I do around eating good food AND drinking good wine, so what does that tell ya?? :tongue_smilie:

 

It tells me I am in good company! :D

[Sue G in PA]

I haven't read all the comments, but I believe it was wine. But, realize that the wine of Jesus' time was not the wine we have today. Back in Jesus' time, wine was more of a fermented beverage that didn't contain near the amounts of alcohol that today's wine does. I'm sure somebody else has already pointed this out, but thought I'd mention it anyway. Jesus wasn't condoning drinking a debauchery by turning water into wine...:)

[Ria]

But, realize that the wine of Jesus' time was not the wine we have today. Back in Jesus' time, wine was more of a fermented beverage that didn't contain near the amounts of alcohol that today's wine does.

 

Do you have a source for this information?

 

Ria

[ereks mom]

Jesus is good company among friends... as was vividly brought home to me in a Greek class in the 1950s when a fellow student, a puritanical preacher, struggled to translate the story of the first miracle, that great practical joke Jesus pulled by making super-strong wine from water at the wedding feast in Cana (John 2).

 

"Water to grape juice," offered the student, eyeing the professor. There was silence. All stared at an RSV crib of verse 10, in which the ruler of the feast complains: "Everyone serves the good wine first; and when they people have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

 

"Does grape juice get rated 'good' and 'poor'?" the professor teased. "Is not this word oinos ('wine') the same Xenophon uses when noting how the men of Cyrus get delayed every time they overindulge?"

 

"B.B.But...." the student stuttered.

 

"I think I get your point," the professor interrupted. "You would like to think that the God of the universe would not spike the punch."

 

"Right!" the student replied.

 

"There is only one thing wrong with your position," the professor said, "namely you are putting yourself in a position to tell God what God can and cannot do."

 

-source: http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/jlaughed.html

[Karenciavo]

Jesus is good company among friends... as was vividly brought home to me in a Greek class in the 1950s when a fellow student, a puritanical preacher, struggled to translate the story of the first miracle,

 

Actually, the Puritans drank in moderation so I don't think the student was puritanical, although many people consider things like this "puritanical" because of the way the Puritans have been maligned since the 19th century.

[TravelingChris]

I never understood the prohibition of alcohol by some churches. I always went back to the Bible and saw that Jesus turned water into wine and Paul urged Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach problems. I never knew that anyone thought that it was turned into juice. Juice wasn't an option except for immediate juicing before modern processing methods. The did not have canning and juice not processed in some way turns alcoholic rather quickly. Furthermore, our wine of today is usually not all that alcoholic. Beer and cider are around 3% and wine is 10% or less. Sherries and port are higher along with brandies.

[Remudamom]

Someone might have already said this, so forgive me if I'm repeating. My King James Bible states that dancing is "leaping for joy" and not a measured step. I wonder if this is what they base their dancing restriction on? Even so, it doesn't say anywhere "thou shalt not step with measure" !!

 

I don't dance because I'm a klutz, but I love to watch my babies dance.

[Peek a Boo]

My question usually is, "If the word 'wine' doesn't truly mean 'wine' as we understand it, which *other* words in the text don't truly mean what we currently believe they mean? How do you tell the difference between the ones that are accurate and those that are not?" To me, it has a great many theological implications.

 

 

There's a really good article about oinos and alcohol by a Seventh Day Adventist guy.

 

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/5.html

 

he examines secular texts as well as Biblical ones.

 

http://www.gtpanell.com/beerandalcohol.html

 

basically, the premise is that oinos can mean fermented OR unfermented, and you'd have to know culture and context to decipher which is meant. If i told my dh that my stomach hurt and to pick up some medicine on the way home, I'd be pretty pissed if he brought home triple antibiotic. And if i heard that someone overdosed on medicine, I'd suspect it was NOT triple antibiotic. ;)

 

Some Jews gave up drinking anything but water --even unfermented grape juice. That's one of the reasons why Samson's diet was such a biggie -he gave up *even* unfermented grape juice.

 

there are plenty of word studies available online that will walk you thru the uses of wine and grape juice in both the OT and NT.

I've found it pretty easy to reconcile oinos as unfermented or fermented depending on the context as well as the character of Christ.

 

That being said, I place it in the same position i do differences in baptism, communion, pacifism, and witnessing :D --not a salvation issue.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[yslek]

I remember asking my Dad about this (he's studied Biblical languages for most of his life independently, then went on to earn an undergrad degree in Classical Languages and a Ph.D. in Biblical Hebrew).

 

He said that the word "oinos" always means fermented grape beverage without exception in every occurence without exception. I think he had a paper or something with a bunch of references, but this was many years ago & I don't fully remember. You don't need to go to those lenghts, though. A good Enlish-Greek dictionary should do the trick. (I think it's Young's that acutally says it could be unfermented juice, which definition probably has more to do with Young's time-period/bias than any real philology. :)) It's much harder to keep grape juice unfermented than to preserve it as juice, btw.

 

Oh, and the word used for what was used at the Lord's Supper is interestingly not "oinos"; it's a more generic term (often translated "fruit of the vine") that can refer to either fermented or unfermented grape beverage. :D

[Peek a Boo]

I remember asking my Dad about this (he's studied Biblical languages for most of his life independently, then went on to earn an undergrad degree in Classical Languages and a Ph.D. in Biblical Hebrew).

 

He said that the word "oinos" always means fermented grape beverage without exception in every occurence without exception. I think he had a paper or something with a bunch of references, but this was many years ago & I don't fully remember. You don't need to go to those lenghts, though. A good Enlish-Greek dictionary should do the trick. (I think it's Young's that acutally says it could be unfermented juice, which definition probably has more to do with Young's time-period/bias than any real philology. :)) It's much harder to keep grape juice unfermented than to preserve it as juice, btw.

Oh, and the word used for what was used at the Lord's Supper is interestingly not "oinos"; it's a more generic term (often translated "fruit of the vine") that can refer to either fermented or unfermented grape beverage. :D

 

 

Yeah... the problem w/ experts in Biblical language and culture is that they don't always agree ;)

 

 

The bolded section is addressed in the links I included above.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Were those who made the claim that alcohol did not exist consistent and believe that plain grape juice made Noah lay unclothed and passed out in his tent (Gen. 9:21)? That all the references in the Hebrew Scriptures to people getting drunk were also euphemisms for too much grape juice? That all the other references to wine and drunkeness in surrounding cultures such as the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc were also incorrect? Or do they claim that at some point between the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures alcohol disappeared from the planet without that earning a passing mention in Scripture?

 

Or Lot and his daughters.

[tibbyl]

Something about the scenario described in the original post thoroughly tickles my funnybone. As I have said before, if I were unaware of their existence, I would think their program was an off the wall indie comedy.

[Jugglin'5]

A. The Bible says so.

B. The steward is quoted as being surprised that the best wine was not brought out first, before everyone was too tipsy to appreciate it. (Paraphrase)

 

The whole grape juice thing really, really annoys me. It is one of the most egregious examples of deciding what you want and then making the Bible match that I know of on the conservative Christian end. And since the conservative Christian camp (of which I count myself a member) is ALWAYS harping on the liberal Christian camp for reading whatever they want into the Bible, it makes the CC's seem very hypocritical to me.

 

 

 

What she said.

[Jugglin'5]

Actually, the Puritans drank in moderation so I don't think the student was puritanical, although many people consider things like this "puritanical" because of the way the Puritans have been maligned since the 19th century.

 

 

They even drank beer for breakfast....:-)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I never understood the prohibition of alcohol by some churches. I always went back to the Bible and saw that Jesus turned water into wine and Paul urged Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach problems. I never knew that anyone thought that it was turned into juice. Juice wasn't an option except for immediate juicing before modern processing methods. The did not have canning and juice not processed in some way turns alcoholic rather quickly. Furthermore, our wine of today is usually not all that alcoholic. Beer and cider are around 3% and wine is 10% or less. Sherries and port are higher along with brandies.

 

Christian History did a short article a couple years back on how some churches came to use grape juice for communion. It seems that it was in interesting confluence of teetotaling (which was itself a reaction to the horrible abuse of alcohol) and the invention of stable unfermented grape juice by the Welch's.

 

I can see how a church would have moved from inner city mission work with drunks and their families to promoting total abstinence to wanting to avoid the use of wine at communion. I can understand it, but I still don't think that you can bend the Biblical accounts to make it mandatory.

[Peek a Boo]

I can see how a church would have moved from inner city mission work with drunks and their families to promoting total abstinence to wanting to avoid the use of wine at communion. I can understand it, but I still don't think that you can bend the Biblical accounts to make it mandatory.

 

you don't have to bend the Biblical accounts to come to a different conclusion. ;)