Steering conversation at a social event

[Innisfree]

Don’t quote, I should probably delete soon.
Would you try to guide conversation in this situation?

Setting is a family Christmas gathering with the in-laws, just a few guests. Our nuclear family will all be present and will balance the guests, i.e., same number in each category. Dh and I are in the older generation now, as are most of the guests.

One male guest (“Percival”) tends to talk to the other males. They’ve known each other for decades and are very comfortable together. The particular male guest who leads this dynamic is a generally kind, well-intentioned, responsible person who is used to being in a position of authority. He’s let some misogynistic “humorous” comments drop over the years but I doubt he’s ever realized how they come across. I don’t think he actually likes talking with people outside his comfort zone of familiar male camaraderie very much. When he can’t divide the group and talk with the guys, he lets his wife lead the conversation, and doesn’t seem to be aware of the problems that result.

His wife (“Angie”) is an alcoholic, probably on the spectrum (multiple diagnosed family members), definitely has social anxiety. She loves to talk, drinks to deal with anxiety, and has strong feelings about how everything “should” be. She is usually at least slightly inebriated, and can rarely avoid criticism of family members who are present. One younger family member is painfully sensitive to the criticism, to the point of severely restricting time with the wife. The restricted time leads directly to more criticism. Angie likes to talk to females who are present, tending to angle herself in such a way as to physically segregate them as well as dominating conversation. Left to her own devices, she’s been known to talk without pause for over an hour. Her stories have eddies and currents, subplots, explanatory asides, on and on. It’s hard to find a point to break in, because the superstructure is so complicated, and changing the subject means her original point (which she hasn’t forgotten!) is dropped.

Percival tries to keep Angie’s drinking within bounds, but has given up on stopping it altogether. When they go out to eat, she always has a couple of glasses of wine, usually having had more before arriving. Secondary question: would you offer alcohol at this gathering? Angie would be happier with it, other older generation guests would enjoy it without abusing it, younger generation guests would be less comfortable with Angie drinking. I don’t like it personally, but mostly don’t enjoy its effect on Angie, though it’s a toss-up whether she’s more difficult with it or without it.

Percival and Angie will be happiest if their customary behavior patterns go unchallenged. An adult kid is difficult to read, preferring to stay in the background. Another older generation guest will be perfectly happy with the usual patterns.

If the usual patterns prevail, Angie will be critical of younger guests for being withdrawn at the same time that her behavior makes them withdraw. At least one younger family member will spend the time in existential agony, while at least one other will be bored and uncomfortable. 

Believe it or not, Angie and Percival are both well-intentioned, generous people who want to socialize more with the family members who will be present. Angie especially tries to be kind while not understanding the ways she sabotages herself. If enlightened, though, she would bring up the subject in ways that would do more damage.

At last, the conclusion: would you try to change the patterns by directing conversation actively, or let things follow the usual pattern? Is making the largest number of guests as comfortable as they can be the priority? That means accepting the status quo. Or should I enlist dh’s somewhat reluctant help and try to shake things up?

Again, please don’t quote.

[Laura Corin]

Does it have to be so much sitting and chatting? I don’t like board games but even I would crack open the Scrabble to break up the dynamic.

[Innisfree]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

Does it have to be so much sitting and chatting? I don’t like board games but even I would crack open the Scrabble to break up the dynamic.

I have wondered about something like that. Thanks, I’ll think about it.

[MercyA]

6 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Does it have to be so much sitting and chatting? I don’t like board games but even I would crack open the Scrabble to break up the dynamic.

Oh, heck yes. Card games (even just Uno), Scrabble, Christmas songs pictionary with a white board, Christmas Bingo with little prizes. An easy Christmas craft to work on. A Christmas movie on the tv. You have options. 

[Innisfree]

I guess I should specify that three quarters of the guests will be perfectly happy with the usual pattern for this group, and would probably not want games, while three quarters of our immediate family will range from somewhat to intensely unhappy with the same pattern. We are the hosts.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Innisfree

[MercyA]

Can you set up several small tables with place cards? Give the younger generation a break?

I'd serve wine with a low-ish alcohol content and no hard liquor.

[MercyA]

Just now, Innisfree said:

I guess I should specify that three quarters of the guests will be perfectly happy with the usual pattern for this group, while three quarters of our immediate family will range from somewhat to intensely unhappy with the same pattern.

Bring something for them to do. Say you saw it online and thought it would be fun. 😉 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

Can you set up several small tables with place cards? Give the younger generation a break?

I'd serve wine with a low-ish alcohol content and no hard liquor.

This is good for the rest of the group but won’t make a difference in the behavior of an alcoholic. Multiple studies have shown they start acting drunk even with a nonalcoholic beverage if they think it contains alcohol. It’s a social anxiety thing, not a biological thing. 

[JustEm]

In that situation, I would not serve alcohol at all. Everyone will survive a night without it. I'd also have a stack of games for people to play so they can decide how they want to avoid the unpleasant person. 

But as long as Angie isn't being rude to people I wouldn't try to steer the conversation. But if she is rude, I personally don't have a problem with pointing out rude behavior to people.

[Innisfree]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

This is good for the rest of the group but won’t make a difference in the behavior of an alcoholic. Multiple studies have shown they start acting drunk even with a nonalcoholic beverage if they think it contains alcohol. It’s a social anxiety thing, not a biological thing. 

This is interesting, thanks.

 I think part of the problem is that the group is so small. There will only be eight people total. So, something like place cards and different tables would be tough.

[Innisfree]

10 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

But as long as Angie isn't being rude to people I wouldn't try to steer the conversation. But if she is rude, I personally don't have a problem with pointing out rude behavior to people.

Is dominating the conversation rude?

Expanding: Angie would not *think* of being rude. She really, genuinely wouldn’t. She’s just very full of some negative emotions that slip out in barbed comments. Plus I believe she sees herself as no-nonsense and forthright.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Innisfree

[JustEm]

48 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Is dominating the conversation rude?

Expanding: Angie would not *think* of being rude. She really, genuinely wouldn’t. She’s just very full of some negative emotions that slip out in barbed comments. Plus I believe she sees herself as no-nonsense and forthright.

Yes, I think it is rude to dominate a conversation to the point where other people can not get a word in. It is one thing to dominate a conversation because you are with people who are not good with holding conversations. but if people would talk if given the opportunity it is rude not to leave room for them to talk or to have your story be so long that it takes up unreasonable amounts of time.

[Tiberia]

By all means, give the uncomfortable people an option to do something else, then leave it up to them whether they do it or not. Games, crafts, making cookies, putting together gifts for charity, watching a movie or a game, anything. I am usually the person who has to endure drunk conversation at social gatherings, and having something else to do is a godsend. At some point, the really uncomfortable people are going to stop attending. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

I think you should go ahead and serve alcohol. Sounds like Angie pre-parties enough that she'll probably show up drunk anyway. 

Is there any way for the older generation to politely call her out on her criticisms of others in attendance? Asking "Why do you say that?" may be enough to get her to re-think what she's saying. And, "That's not a very nice thing to say," or "Maybe they're withdrawn because they can't get a word in edgewise" wouldn't be out of line if she continues to disparage other attendees.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would not serve alcohol.  I would have something interesting for the unhappy (with the dynamic) people to do.  Or let them not attend, even.

[wintermom]

I'd definitely find alternative activities for those who want to escape this "prison" of having to be polite and quiet to this dynamic. There are lots of options:

- cut the visit short

- plan to do other things to be in a different room (playing board games, walking outdoors, food prep/clean-up, even watching TV in another room)

You don't have to try and control the optional activities for everyone you think might prefer, just your own family members (and talk to them ahead of time so that they know that there are options available)

[Danae]

What I have done in a somewhat similar situation is give the younger family members permission (and even encouragement) in advance to walk away if they are uncomfortable.  If the problem person says anything about it I will tell her “I gave them permission to leave if [you criticized them/they were bored/whatever the situation is].” 

Our problem person is now much more careful with her conversation when the teens are in the room, which is more than I’d hoped for.  My concern was protecting them, changing her was unexpected.

At a holiday meal is hard, because you don’t want to exclude the non-problem family from the holiday, but I would still give them permission to leave if they want to and promise an immediate-family-only treat or activity later. Sometimes just knowing that they can leave even if they don’t makes it better for them.  

[El...]

Sometimes just taking a walk together can break up a group into smaller dynamics. One can stand up, slap one's full belly paunch, and say, "Wow, that was delicious. I need to walk a bit off before dessert? Who wants to see the sunset?" Even if only a few people take the opportunity to get a few minutes away, it can be a breather.

[bolt.]

Man, I think I'm too blunt. I'd be tempted to say, "Nobody likes being criticized, Angie." -- on repeat, like a broken record, every time it comes up. There's nothing like a bit of negative reinforcement. If someone is already violating social norms, I have no qualms about also violating social norms to tell them so.

[Spryte]

I would try several approaches. First, I’d strategize with the uncomfortable family members, and make sure they all know we are working together toward a comfortable plan. I’d help them with planning their escape, if needed, in a way that makes it clear that they are free to do so.

I’d skip the alcohol.

I’d have a stack of games ready, and if one or more of my uncomfortable people was ok with it, I would have them be games master and in charge of setting up and herding gamers. Board games. Minute to Win It Christmas games, whatever.

Are there little kids? Uncomfortable people could supervise an activity with kids. Or just a craft for everyone. 

And finally, I’d encourage uncomfortable people to have alternate plans with friends — you know, friends in town for the holidays, can’t be missed, but the uncomfortable people absolutely didn’t want to miss saying hello to Angie and Percival before heading out. Ta ta! 

 

[marbel]

Are all the young people in your family? Like, your kids? And they are the ones most likely to be uncomfortable? I read all the posts but am not sure of the demographics here. 

Depending on how old they are, I'd completely excuse the young people from the proceedings once they have exchanged niceties with all the guests. Or, as others have said, once dinner is over I'd offer a place to play games and those that want to can do that.

Even polite young adults don't want to sit around with drunk, mean (even unintentionally), old people. I mean I don't either, but I can put up with it. 

I don't think the presence or lack of alcohol is going to make any difference. I might feel the need for a glass of wine myself under these circumstances. 

[PeterPan]

Is this "angie" someone you see other times of year? What you might do is see her ahead, not to say anything about the event but just to build some relationship and comfort. If she has low skills for conversation, then maybe practicing them ahead with you would get out some of her words (as maybe she's avoided a lot and has a lot of them) or build her skills or maybe just build her comfort in the situation. 

I don't know, just trying to think about a different way to approach it. 

[EKS]

Is it not possible for the ones who don't like the behavior to simply hang out elsewhere?  Like in another room?

[SKL]

I think I'd just talk to the young people and warn them that this is how the evening is going to go.  It's a very short time period in the grand scheme.

[SKL]

As for alcohol, I would probably have just enough on hand for everyone to have one or two drinks, and then it runs out.

[Innisfree]

17 minutes ago, marbel said:

Are all the young people in your family? Like, your kids? And they are the ones most likely to be uncomfortable? I read all the posts but am not sure of the demographics here. 

The younger 2/3 of them are my now-young-adult kids. The other is Angie and Percival’s own, significantly older, young adult kid, who usually is as silent as possible at any gathering and doesn’t stay long. That kid had a rough childhood, with lingering social issues, but is on decent terms with A&P. My two are the most likely to be uncomfortable with Angie.

My two have been assured of our support whatever they decide to do, with the general plan being that presence at least briefly at this gathering means there’s no expectation of even a fleeting visit with Angie for the next year. They’re adults. They get to choose who to visit, and where to hang out. They just end up overhearing Angie’s complaints about their absence, career choices, and so forth on other occasions, due to our small house, so resentment lingers. We’re moving in a year… and they do have some escape plans for the visit this year.

I was just wondering if I could/should be trying more to actively guide conversation for this roughly three hour visit to make it less painful. I was way too deferential to Angie when Dh and I were first married. I’ve wished that I had set firmer boundaries and established different patterns early on. If I had been blunt with Angie years ago, the whole family dynamics might have evolved differently. Instead I was polite to a fault. At this point, though, maybe just letting the kids escape and getting through a few hours with guests reasonably happy is the best we can do.

 

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Is this "angie" someone you see other times of year?

Yes, Dh and I see her every couple of months, and he talks with her frequently. We used to invite her to do more, that just didn’t work well for all the reasons mentioned. Seeing her more often didn’t help.

She wanted a relationship where she could drop in to our house whenever she wanted, have coffee, chat. We were homeschooling and needed to have more structured plans, plus she made the kids miserable. It’s been a long dance of trying to make things work, and this visit before Christmas Day instead of on Christmas Day is the latest adjustment. Our needs aren’t going to fulfill her wishes.

[JustEm]

With the additional info, I'd not only support your kids in whatever they decide to do, I'd stick up for them when she complains about their absence. I'd be blunt and honest with something like, ' they don't care to spend time with you because you are too critical of them.' Or, 'well you haven't really fostered the type of relationship that encourages them to remain involved.' 

But i'd be doing this more for my children then for any hope that it would help Angie do better. I'd want them to know that I don't just support their choices but I'll proudly and loudly support them even if it makes me and the other people who have ignored poor behavior for years uncomfortable.

[Innisfree]

Just now, hjffkj said:

With the additional info, I'd not only support your kids in whatever they decide to do, I'd stick up for them when she complains about their absence. I'd be blunt and honest with something like, ' they don't care to spend time with you because you are too critical of them.'

Yeah. I told her some time this year that the more she complained, the less she would see them. I don’t think her behavior will change, but the kids have heard me stand up for them.

[JustEm]

1 minute ago, Innisfree said:

Yeah. I told her some time this year that the more she complained, the less she would see them. I don’t think her behavior will change, but the kids have heard me stand up for them.

That's good. I'd just keep sticking up for them or when she complains merely say, 'we've already discussed why they don't want to spend time with you. *insert new conversation topic here*'

[Innisfree]

We have also minimized the kids’ time with Angie for years; it’s just hard to completely escape contact. She wants them present to receive birthday gifts. We’ve told them they don’t have to be present. Etc…

[Clarita]

I wouldn't steer the conversation. I would just allow people to escape either via games, a different room or leave altogether. In terms of Angie I would defend the actions of my children. If she complains about why they aren't being friendly to her I would say something like people don't like being criticized why would they stay to be criticized. If she Then tell her it's not about who's right or wrong but that if she wants a relationship with certain people she has got to appeal to them.

The decision for her is whether she wants to be "right" or whether she wants a relationship with the young adults.

[Innisfree]

The heck of it is that she has tried so.hard. to have a good relationship with our kids. I mean, meeting them at the bus stop with balloons on their birthdays every year when they were little. Presents. But also sitting next to them and hugging them when they didn’t want hugging, and not wanting to get them the presents they were interested in because they didn’t make sense to her, and not being willing to listen to suggestions to change her behavior.

I feel really bad for her, because I am absolutely certain, with reason to trust my own judgment, that she is on the spectrum. She’s older than me; no way would she ever have been diagnosed as a child. But I look at her, and how frustrated she makes me, and how difficult her presence is, and feel bad for not having more patience, because she could be my kid; or my kids could be her. ASD runs in the family. I don’t want my kids to end up in her situation, and I’m sad that she’s there, but she still drives me bonkers.

One more reason I get on soapboxes about early (or late!) testing, diagnosis, and therapy…

[Clarita]

The thing is she also has to know what things to try, not just try hard. It can be frustrating when the "rules" always seem to change, because people are all different and one thing may be great for one person (group) but not the next. I think what she really needs to learn is a way to find the rules for each person, not just the rules for your party.  

[catz]

Is this actually on the holiday?  We have some quirky family relationships.  I've gotten to the point where I will no longer host and we get together with them in limited ways.  This year my mom is hosting a short appetizer gathering at her house.  If I am expected to plan, I make a restaurant reservation or we do something like bowling.  Something like meeting at a christmas market or lights display and having dinner might be a nice get together.  Where there is a good distraction.

For the future, I would try to plan events that will keep the event to a couple hours on neutral turf on a neutral date with a distraction.  Especially now that we have young adults, I am going to try to maintain doing our holiday at home with just us while they want to do that.  I would try to have responses ready for unwelcome conversation.  

Have you talked to your kids about what you suspect is going on with her?  I do try to do that with my kids when adults aren't acting great.  Sometimes having some empathy can help.  That doesn't mean they can't have or deserve boundaries or enforce them.  But understanding Angie just can't stop and it's going to need to be repeated and maybe that might also help them more strongly enforce boundaries too.

[Innisfree]

10 minutes ago, catz said:

Is this actually on the holiday?

No, we’ve moved the gathering ahead of the holiday this year, something I’ve been trying to do for years. This year we just decided to be out of town for the actual day so the visit had to happen sooner. Getting the visit out of the way will reduce time for anyone here to be anxious about it and generally make life better.

I like the idea of neutral turf with a distraction.

Forgot to add that yes, we’ve talked with the kids about everything that we think is going on. In the abstract they both have a lot of empathy for Angie. She still provokes a lot of anxiety. I’ve also told them that I wish I had enforced stronger boundaries earlier, and that they will be supported in doing so.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Innisfree

[SKL]

I also think it is fine if your kids have someplace else to be at that time.

Honestly I don't see the point in trying to change this person.  I would never bother trying to talk sense to a person who is drunk, for one thing.

It would be different if she were moving in with you and your kids.  One evening is not going to put anyone out that much.

I used to work for one of the "big 4" accounting firms, and every time we went out for anything (including client dinners), one or more individuals would make an a$$ of himself/herself thanks to alcohol.  I hated it.  Sometimes I decided I had to deal with it anyway, at least for an hour or so; other times, I found someplace else I needed to be that evening.  Unfortunately, this is a part of life.

[EKS]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

I also think it is fine if your kids have someplace else to be at that time.

I agree with this given the additional information the OP provided.

[QueenCat]

I would probably still serve alcohol simply because I have a full bar/lounge in my home that

you see as soon as you walk in. People are accustomed to going straight there when they arrive

to get themselves something to drink or have my dh make something. 

 

And even without that set-up, it is likely that Angie will just start bringing wine to share or send her dh out to get some

since you "forgot" to get any.

[gardenmom5]

I don't drink - but with a likely drinking alcoholic as you describe, I wouldn't offer alcohol even if I did drink.  I would make sure to have interesting non-alcoholic drinks readily available.  

I would have some prepared topics to discuss, so whenever things go off the rails, you will have your "bean dip" ready to pass. 
Or start a new tradition with games that will keep people busier.

eta: while games can be great - even a jigsaw puzzle - I had to ban games from the family thanksgiving (we were hosting) because of how competitive one person would get.  It was ugly, and mean.

It's sad when one person ruins it for everyone else.

Edited December 15, 2023 by gardenmom5

[Faith-manor]

You are nicer than I. I tend to NOT invite people to events at our house who are folks who make the kids really uncomfortable. This is why I have some relatives we only socialize with as a couple, at a restaurant, once or twice year. Holidays in particular are our moments to share with our kids, and especially now that they are spread out, and we see them so much less, those holidays are very precious to us. A&P would not be invited to my house.

But since you are going ahead with this, I would stream a movie that your adult kids have not seen yet in a separate room. Make caramel corn for them to munch, and let them escape with other foods and beverages into that room, and tell them they can turn the volume up to make it far less likely she will show up and try to start up a conversation. If you serve all the food buffet style, it will make it easy for them to escape and start the movie when she upsets them. If she asks about them or mentions that they are being anti-social, tell her to stuff it. Calmly state how she is being rude or difficult.

3 hours is a perfect amount of time for your kids to watch a movie, and their son might appreciate being to escape with them.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Faith-manor

[prairiewindmomma]

We’ve BTDT. We usually break out a game or activity my kids and other young adults enjoy. I view my job as keeping my kids safe and comfortable > smoothing things for the offending adult. Gatherings became shorter, and then they moved to a neutral place. My kids prefer meeting at a restaurant because it’s a limited tome with a natural leaving point. This summer we met at a botanical garden where we could walk and talk about the flowers and trees. It’s way better than an open ended long lasting event. If we didnt do this, we’d likely have to stop meeting up given how toxic the individual has become. Their mental illness doesnt give them free rein to be terrible. We can have both empathy and boundaries.

[kathyl]

Maybe let the kids plan the whole thing, with your help, of course.  They're going to run into many alcoholics in their lifetimes.  It could be a good 'life skills' training thing for them.  I know I could have used some of that training when I was growing up.  

And I think you might have given Angie more than enough access to your dc.  It doesn't seem to make anyone happy but her.  Possibly time to put your dc (and yourself?) first for a change.