Diane Feinstein died

[Katy]

At 90.

[Annie G]

I read that she voted on a bill in person yesterday at 11:30 AM.  Worked right up til she passed away!

[Terabith]

Oh no!

[Frances]

9 hours ago, Annie G said:

I read that she voted on a bill in person yesterday at 11:30 AM.  Worked right up til she passed away!

I’m sorry, but I don’t find it admirable that she worked as a senator right up until she died. She and most of the other elderly, long serving representatives (both male and female) should have retired long ago instead of holding onto power. I truly believe our country would be bette for it.

[Annie G]

27 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t find it admirable that she worked as a senator right up until she died. She and most of the other elderly, long serving representatives (both male and female) should have retired long ago instead of holding onto power. I truly believe our country would be bette for it.

I don’t find it admirable either.  It was just a statement.  

[Sneezyone]

10 hours ago, Annie G said:

I read that she voted on a bill in person yesterday at 11:30 AM.  Worked right up til she passed away!

No, she didn't. Someone voted by proxy. 

[Annie G]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No, she didn't. Someone voted by proxy. 

I hate it when I trust a news story without verifying. Honestly you shouldn’t have to double check everything. Sheesh. My bad. 

[BusyMom5]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t find it admirable that she worked as a senator right up until she died. She and most of the other elderly, long serving representatives (both male and female) should have retired long ago instead of holding onto power. I truly believe our country would be bette for it.

Exactly what I said to my DH earlier.  This wasn't something to  be proud of- it's an embarrassment that we have so many elderly people in our government. 

[Green Bean]

Shouldn't they have a forced retirement age? I think so.

[Grace Hopper]

I believe wise elders should always be called upon and respected for their ability to advise based on years of experience. However, I believe the rigors of office are better met by younger/healthier candidates. It’s unfair to constituents for a representative to be unable to properly advocate for them due to age related fatigue and illness. 
 

Personally I would rather see term limits than age limits; I believe the former would greatly reduce the need for the latter. 

[Sneezyone]

51 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

I believe wise elders should always be called upon and respected for their ability to advise based on years of experience. However, I believe the rigors of office are better met by younger/healthier candidates. It’s unfair to constituents for a representative to be unable to properly advocate for them due to age related fatigue and illness. 
 

Personally I would rather see term limits than age limits; I believe the former would greatly reduce the need for the latter. 

The issue with term limits is that institutional memory is valuable too. Seniority allows members to provide benefits and assume leadership positions junior members cannot and should not have. See Gaetz, Matt. It’s a balancing act, for sure, and she (like RBG) should have retired at a more opportune moment. Some folks just don’t have the foresight that the hive mind provides.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ting Tang]

It’s sad for me to see so many elderly people in office, from our President on downward. It’s not party-based for me. I wonder why they’d want to endure such stress in their golden years. However, we read stories about more ordinary people continuing to work sometimes because they are simply passionate. We could take age away and just make more limits— long enough to get good, short enough to bring in new life. 

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Exactly what I said to my DH earlier.  This wasn't something to  be proud of- it's an embarrassment that we have so many elderly people in our government. 

I don’t think it’s good to have someone slipping due to age, but I’m also skeptical of the youngsters! On both sides. 

[Frances]

25 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I don’t think it’s good to have someone slipping due to age, but I’m also skeptical of the youngsters! On both sides. 

Oh yeah, the level of ignorance and incompetence combined with high levels of self confidence and arrogance in some of the youngsters in elected office is downright frightening. But I also don’t think one needs to be 75+ to have maturity, knowledge, wisdom, and good judgement.

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

The issue with term limits is that institutional memory is valuable too. Seniority allows members to provide benefits and assume leadership positions junior members cannot and should not have. See Gaetz, Matt. It’s a balancing act, for sure, and she (like RBG) should have retired at a more opportune moment. Some folks just don’t have the foresight that the hive mind provides.

I get it. It would be great to have actual elder statesman/junior statesman mentorship arrangements. I believe three to four Senate terms - for a total of 18-24 years in that position - is sufficient to learn the system and pass knowledge along, then step into an advisory role. At least 25 of our current senators have served >35 years. 
 

I am speaking idealistically, of course. No one seems to want to relinquish power. <cue Christopher Jackson….>

Edited September 30, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, Frances said:

Oh yeah, the level of ignorance and incompetence combined with high levels of self confidence and arrogance in some of the youngsters in elected office is downright frightening.

Brought to all of us (mostly) because of gerrymandering. Get rid of the extremes of that and we'd get better candidates.

Yes, I know. You all know this. I'm preaching to the choir/stating the obvious, but it makes me feel a little better to post it.

[DawnM]

I saw that.   I lived in CA during her prime.   90 is a good long life.

[Grace Hopper]

Well now that this is stuck in a loop in my head I might as well share the link. (Maybe it should play on loop in the halls of Congress…🤔)
 

 

 

[Halftime Hope]

16 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

No, she didn't. Someone voted by proxy. 

I saw video of her voting on something yesterday. She was about to give an explanation why she supported something and an aide gently coached her that she only needed to give an "aye". 

The next one that needs to hang up his saddle in on the other side of the aisle. He has been marginally functional for a few months now, but still going to work. Maybe he'll take the hint and retire.

[Grace Hopper]

3 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I saw video of her voting on something yesterday. She was about to give an explanation why she supported something and an aide gently coached her that she only needed to give an "aye". 

The next one that needs to hang up his saddle in on the other side of the aisle. He has been marginally functional for a few months now, but still going to work. Maybe he'll take the hint and retire.

That other one also had another “episode” this past Wednesday that much of the mainstream media declined to report. 

[Ting Tang]

Yes, this is clearly a problem regardless of political affiliation.  I do wonder about all the people around them.  I wonder if they are encouraged to keep going because let's face it...nobody leaves politics poorer anymore. 

[Idalou]

I think we can all agree that perhaps there was a better choice than to remain in Congress when her health and age were detrimental, but let's not forget her accomplishments. The one that stood out to me, in which I'd forgotten she led,  was her spearheading the investigation and report that the CIA misled( Lied) about enhanced interrogation and our never should be forgotten role in torture. I feel that's another truth that will not be taught in schools.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/dianne-feinstein-senator-accomplishments-firsts-revisit/

Edited September 30, 2023 by Idalou

[sassenach]

20 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

It’s sad for me to see so many elderly people in office, from our President on downward. It’s not party-based for me. I wonder why they’d want to endure such stress in their golden years. However, we read stories about more ordinary people continuing to work sometimes because they are simply passionate. We could take age away and just make more limits— long enough to get good, short enough to bring in new life. 

Just said this to my dd. I can't imagine not taking advantage of using those years to do things that aren't work. The only thing I can assume is that her identity was so wrapped up in her position, she just couldn't leave it behind.

 

[Halftime Hope]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:24 PM, sassenach said:

 The only thing I can assume is that her identity was so wrapped up in her position, she just couldn't leave it behind.

I think this is true for someone who has received so much adulation, deference and satisfaction, even adrenaline, from the power of their position. It's hard to walk away from that. I don't know anything about her friends and family, but she may have sacrificed many things in her life, including relationships, to achieve what she did.

It's an amazing things when people walk away from power because values or principles that they hold dear call that of them. My former boss was one of those men. I can't wait to see what his next calling will be.  

[SHP]

1 hour ago, Halftime Hope said:

I think this is true for someone who has received so much adulation, deference and satisfaction, even adrenaline, from the power of their position. It's hard to walk away from that. I don't know anything about her friends and family, but she may have sacrificed many things in her life, including relationships, to achieve what she did.

It's an amazing things when people walk away from power because values or principles that they hold dear call that of them. My former boss was one of those men. I can't wait to see what his next calling will be.  

I don't think you are wrong, but I wanted to add that I see older people in regular jobs without any power who just will not retire. They have spent decades in the routine of getting up, going to work, come home, make dinner, watch TV, go to bed, and repeat. Their job became all they are. Without working they have no clue what to do with themselves or their time. They never developed a work life balance, never pursued their passions, and are in their golden years with no clue what they could do with their time so they just keep working.

 

It's a sad commentary about lack of work-life balance.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

3 hours ago, SHP said:

I don't think you are wrong, but I wanted to add that I see older people in regular jobs without any power who just will not retire. They have spent decades in the routine of getting up, going to work, come home, make dinner, watch TV, go to bed, and repeat. Their job became all they are. Without working they have no clue what to do with themselves or their time. They never developed a work life balance, never pursued their passions, and are in their golden years with no clue what they could do with their time so they just keep working.

 

It's a sad commentary about lack of work-life balance.

I know plenty of people though that don’t want a work-life balance.  They enjoy their job, it gives purpose, not everyone wants to have hobbies or likes them.  

[fraidycat]

11 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I know plenty of people though that don’t want a work-life balance.  They enjoy their job, it gives purpose, not everyone wants to have hobbies or likes them.  

I don't think that this is necessarily a choice, so much as societal conditioning. It's HARD to go against the grain. For decades, people have been conditioned to believe that what they do to earn a wage is who they are. 
 

So it's no more a "choice" to not want to to do anything else in life than it is a "choice" for an addict to continue consuming their chemical. It's an identity issue.

Which also speaks to the sad commentary on our current societal norms and perspectives, and as @SHPpointed out, lack of work-LIFE (everything else that does not earn a wage - friends, family, home maintenance, pets, ....)balance. 

We're starting to see a shift, but the backlash from the indoctrinated is big and loud. "Nobody wants to work anymore". 🙄🙄

[marbel]

There are a lot of different types of people in the world - those who have power such as politicians and don't want to give it up, those who have no particular power but love what they do for work and will do it till they die, and those who have been conditioned by parents and/or culture to find their identity solely in their work. (And of course people who have to work for food/shelter till they die and haven't the time for work/life balance.)

Or people like me, who liked work OK till I had kids, and then found the life I was made for (stay home mom/homemaker). Or maybe I'm just lazy. I'm certainly not counter-cultural. 

If a person loves their job above all possible hobbies, maybe they have found their work/life balance. 

 

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, marbel said:

There are a lot of different types of people in the world - those who have power such as politicians and don't want to give it up, those who have no particular power but love what they do for work and will do it till they die, and those who have been conditioned by parents and/or culture to find their identity solely in their work. (And of course people who have to work for food/shelter till they die and haven't the time for work/life balance.)

Or people like me, who liked work OK till I had kids, and then found the life I was made for (stay home mom/homemaker). Or maybe I'm just lazy. I'm certainly not counter-cultural. 

If a person loves their job above all possible hobbies, maybe they have found their work/life balance. 

 

Maybe they have. It's certainly a possibility. I do not see that among the older employees in our municipal workforce tho. I see exhaustion, disillusionment, and resignation.

[Lady Florida.]

19 minutes ago, marbel said:

those who have no particular power but love what they do for work and will do it till they die

We see this a lot with actors and musicians. Many have made enough money to never have to work again but they keep at it. Think of the geriatric rock group tours (I'm looking at you, Rolling Stones) or actors like Helen Mirren or Harrison Ford. I often wonder if they just love what they do that much or don't know what to do with themselves if they no longer have those defining roles (no pun intended). 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

We see this a lot with actors and musicians. Many have made enough money to never have to work again but they keep at it. Think of the geriatric rock group tours (I'm looking at you, Rolling Stones) or actors like Helen Mirren or Harrison Ford. I often wonder if they just love what they do that much or don't know what to do with themselves if they no longer have those defining roles (no pun intended). 

What you're pointing to/out is people who have the MEANS to engage in leisure choosing to work indefinitely vs those who NEED to work because they lack the means to do otherwise. Big difference. One is about preference and hubris (the idea that you can still do it well at any age) the other is about necessity.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What you're pointing to/out is people who have the MEANS to engage in leisure choosing to work indefinitely vs those who NEED to work because they lack the means to do otherwise. Big difference. One is about preference and hubris (the idea that you can still do it well at any age) the other is about necessity.

But I know lots of regular people in regular jobs who choose to continue working much longer than they have to. Many do really seem to enjoy what they do. Truly there are all kinds of people in the world.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

But I know lots of regular people in regular jobs who choose to continue working much longer than they have to. Many do really seem to enjoy what they do. Truly there are all kinds of people in the world.

I didn't say they don't exist. I said I think that's a minority of older people. For a variety of reasons, most people do not want to die in office and they shouldn't have to. Most often, I see people who keep working long, LONG past their effective by date (including my grandma who was forced to retire as a nurse) who have no business doing so both for public safety and efficiency reasons.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

Unpopular opinion: I believe you shouldn’t be eligible to run for office after your 70th birthday. It’s a mild version of setting a term limit. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Unpopular opinion: I believe you shouldn’t be eligible to run for office after your 70th birthday. It’s a mild version of setting a term limit. 

I don't think that's unpopular at all. I think our human prime is certainly longer than it used to be but does not extend into the 70s-80s as yet.

[prairiewindmomma]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:23 PM, Sneezyone said:

No, she didn't. Someone voted by proxy. 

In addition, there is a lot of video footage of her needing a lot of prompting with re: to how to vote, with reorientation to where she was and why she was there, etc. 
 

While she accomplished many good and important things, she would have done well to retire earlier as part of a succession plan. I know her committee position was an important one, but like RBG, her legacy is shadowed by her selfishness at the end.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

In addition, there is a lot of video footage of her needing a lot of prompting with re: to how to vote, with reorientation to where she was and why she was there, etc. 
 

While she accomplished many good and important things, she would have done well to retire earlier as part of a succession plan. I know her committee position was an important one, but like RBG, her legacy is shadowed by her selfishness at the end.

Indeed. There's so much hubris around individual value/importance. EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE.

[Sneezyone]

I think about this a lot b/c I do not want to count myself in the number of folks who don't know when to say when, when to retire, when to get help, when to leave my home, when to enjoy the final days in a wine-soaked stupor. We have such a *thing* about death and finality, like it's a bad thing. It's not; it's just the end, or the beginning, depending on your view. Why we fight it so hard?... ugh. I don't know.

I think it's tied to the idea that we're meaningless and leaching if we're not WORKING FOR PAY, which is ridiculous. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

It’s on my mind a lot also. I am currently listening to a legal continuing ed lecture on functional capacity and neuropsych evals right now and pondering if vocational evaluations with relevant work functions could somehow be a required qualification for some offices.

It’s not likely to ever happen, but in my dream world…

 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It’s on my mind a lot also. I am currently listening to a legal continuing ed lecture on functional capacity and neuropsych evals right now and pondering if vocational evaluations with relevant work functions could somehow be a required qualification for some offices.

It’s not likely to ever happen, but in my dream world…

 

I work in gov't. so the issues of longevity/institutional memory vs. squatting/ROADing (retired on active duty) are real and ever present. Everyone shouldn't keep working, even if they want to. It's worth discussing. I have people on my 'team' that shouldn't be there. IJS. They need to go and make room for those with the energy to make waves. I'm not even counting myself in that number, I'm somewhere in between, but we are stifling innovation and talent and have been for years.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[EKS]

I'm for term limits and an age limit.  And I think the age limit should be tied to when the term would end, so it would be different for different positions. 

[Lady Florida.]

54 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What you're pointing to/out is people who have the MEANS to engage in leisure choosing to work indefinitely vs those who NEED to work because they lack the means to do otherwise. Big difference. One is about preference and hubris (the idea that you can still do it well at any age) the other is about necessity.

Yes but I was comparing them to someone like Diane Feinstein who surely had the means to stop working. That's why I pulled out the very specific quote that some people just love what they do and that's the reason they continue to work.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said:

Yes but I was comparing them to someone like Diane Feinstein who surely had the means to stop working. That's why I pulled out the very specific quote that some people just love what they do and that's the reason they continue to work.

I understood. I was pointing out that she is an example of people who *can* do other things but that it's not the norm to be in that position. More likely is people who *can't* stop even if they might prefer to. I think Feinstein and RBG and Thurmond, and McConnell, and Mick Jagger, and...are an example of hubris (not limited by gender). NO ONE NEEDS YOU as much as you think they do. They need representation. If you're no longer effective and pose a risk to those you represent, you need to go, whether you want to or not. I recognize that having only one party adhere to that expectation is problematic but I don't think we should sink to the lowest Republican denominator. That goes for Menendez as well.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Meriwether]

16 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

But I know lots of regular people in regular jobs who choose to continue working much longer than they have to. Many do really seem to enjoy what they do. Truly there are all kinds of people in the world.

My dad had a fall recently, and I mentioned it might be time to give up farming. That was a hard no. Lol He is in his upper 70's now and plans to farm until he dies.

[Ting Tang]

57 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

My dad had a fall recently, and I mentioned it might be time to give up farming. That was a hard no. Lol He is in his upper 70's now and plans to farm until he dies.

My husband farms with his dad, who is in his mid to upper 70s.  My husband dislikes the idea of hiring anyone.  One of his siblings is having her son, my nephew, stay with them this weekend for four days to help "farm." (we live nextdoor to each other, and I have shingles...woman doesn't get it)  He is 11.  She thinks it is party time, and my FIL is just trying to be extremely careful. Their motto has always been, "don't fall."  

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ting Tang

[maize]

15 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I understood. I was pointing out that she is an example of people who *can* do other things but that it's not the norm to be in that position. More likely is people who *can't* stop even if they might prefer to. I think Feinstein and RBG and Thurmond, and McConnell, and Mick Jagger, and...are an example of hubris (not limited by gender). NO ONE NEEDS YOU as much as you think they do. They need representation. If you're no longer effective and pose a risk to those you represent, you need to go, whether you want to or not. I recognize that having only one party adhere to that expectation is problematic but I don't think we should sink to the lowest Republican denominator. That goes for Menendez as well.

Romney announced he is stepping down to let younger people step up.

Hoping here for some younger Republicans willing to fill his shoes.

[Ting Tang]

I think seeing our President slip a bit, physically and cognitively, isn't good, either.  Yes, one should be able to do what one loves, but these are public service jobs. Isn't there a way to be in public service without the risk to our nation's well-being?  Republicans and Democrats. This isn't about shamng one party over another. Mitch McConnell is the same.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Politicians aside, I think there is a difference between people having to work and people choosing to work.  I definitely know people, my husband is one, who legitimately just enjoy their job enough that they’d do it for free.  They like going to work because they find meaning in what they do, like spending time with their coworkers, and the money is just an added bonus.

My grandfather retired from his job at 55. He worked for the town clearing highways and building roads.  I doubt he enjoyed it, but it paid the bills.  Later on, in his late 80s, he said that if he’d known he was going to live so long, he’d have waited to retire just because he liked waking up in the morning and having something to go do.  He farmed and then hobby farmed until right before he died, and bought and ran a small town restaurant for several years in his retirement as well.  He was the happiest man I’ve ever known, but he truly was happiest when working. 
If you have to work at a job you don’t particularly like well into retirement age just to pay the bills, that’s a different situation entirely.  

[Terabith]

I agree that people should retire before they are compromised by age, but I think our political system makes that hard.  We watched a Senate majority leader hold a Supreme Court seat hostage because more than a year before the election was too close.  I’m not sure RBG was selfish in not retiring; she may have realized that her seat might have been given to someone whose values were very different from her own.  I’m not sure Diane Feinstein was selfish but fearful that in a divided House, her spot on the judiciary committee might not be allowed to be filled by someone of her party.  I’m not sure our current president wants to run again, and in a perfect world he shouldn’t have to.  But he may be the only person who can defeat the actor from Home Alone 2 and thus feels he has no other choice.  
 

Our government is broken and all sorts of people feel forced to be in positions they don’t want to be to try to keep it from breaking entirely.  

[Meriwether]

13 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I think seeing our President slip a bit, physically and cognitively, isn't good, either.  Yes, one should be able to do what one loves, but these are public service jobs. Isn't there a way to be in public service without the risk to our nation's well-being?  Republicans and Democrats. This isn't about shamng one party over another. Mitch McConnell is the same.  

I think I am not understanding your post. Is your nephew staying with you? I would not want to host someone while dealing with shingles.

But 11 is a fine age to help on the farm. I helped on the farm by then. My nephews often help my dad. Dad has a bum knee that he won't get fixed and he is definitely older than he was, but he is stronger than most men half his age. He gets time in the fresh air and sunshine every day. He walks as little as possible but is active. He lifts and carries things regularly. It keeps pre-diabetes pre. I worry about injury, but I don't know that his life would improve by retiring. And life expectancy might not either.