Misogyny - the today version. What is it and who is guilty of it?

[SKL]

I'm talking today, not in our childhoods etc.

Where I live (midwest, moderate US), women aren't particularly restricted or disrespected.  There are some historically conservative populations, and there are still some male-dominated industries that are harder for women to break into, but there isn't a general "women must do this, women can't do that, women are inferior" feel.

If anyone's making things hard for women, though, it's usually other women IME.  Females judge each other and hold each other to unhealthy / unrealistic standards.  Women also tend to measure themselves against other women, which I consider a negative.  Further, I see a disturbing trend toward young females normalizing what I consider misogynistic language.

So I am wondering what the Hive things about these questions:

1) How do you define "misogyny" in the context of your present-day real life?  Examples welcome.

2) Who's perpetrating misogyny these days?  Why are they doing this?

3) What should we do about this?

The more I think about it, I see parallels in some other historically disadvantaged populations, which often attack their own members rather than support each other for the greater good.  Why do humans do this?

[Lecka]

There is a real childcare shortage in my area.  I think the low wages paid to childcare workers reflects misogyny that women’s work just isn’t very important.

I think the same about teaching, but not to the same degree.

I absolutely am around people (men) who totally devalue child development and think it’s stupid to care about child development.  They think it’s just not a big deal and will take care of itself.  They have idiotic ideas about how to “handle” children who are having behavioral problems etc.

It is definitely not all men, but it’s something I absolutely run into, and I despise it.  
 

They do not value or prioritize childcare or the work their wives do to take care of their kids.  It’s seen as beyond a waste of time.  It’s like they are doing something stupid.  
 

Basic childcare and child development is just seen as — I can’t describe it except to say, as a waste of time.

 

I personally have never seen a women act this way or display this attitude.  I’m searching my mind and can’t think of a single time.

 

I have known women who go to work and know their child is not being cared for in the best way, because their husband is home not working and not paying a lot of attention to the kids.

 

I have also known wonderful men who have taken great care of their kids during a period of unemployment etc.  

 

But I have seen the thing I’m talking about, it’s not my imagination, I can only wish that it were.  

[Clarita]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

1) How do you define "misogyny" in the context of your present-day real life?  Examples welcome.

I'm not good enough in language to define it. The biggest way I feel it in my day to day life is when I became a SAHM. Prior to that I worked in a male dominated industry, three times in my ten years of working I was disrespected for being a woman and every single one of those times the perpetrator(s) were reprimanded. When I became a SAHM, it was the first time in my adult life that my opinions and thoughts were not taken seriously. Told things like "you couldn't possibly know ..." everything from how to handle difficult people, deal with contractors/adults, do math, know anything beyond kids and dinner, etc. Not only do people say these things out loud, but everyone else in the room acting like this is normal and OK.

I think some of the current misogyny happens with occupations or things associated with women are looked down upon as not important or requiring skill. 

17 minutes ago, SKL said:

2) Who's perpetrating misogyny these days?  Why are they doing this?

Certainly feels like a majority. Honestly, I don't know why people do this. It's pervasive and I know some women who have never experienced being respected in general really feel like they don't deserve respect, because they weren't good enough to do a male dominated thing.  That's really sad to me, but the other people I don't know why they perpetrate this.

21 minutes ago, SKL said:

3) What should we do about this?

As a society I think we should respect people more. Currently I feel like people want to see why they should respect someone first before they treat someone respectfully. I think we should normalize respecting someone first until they do something to lose our respect. 

I also think we should stop with the men need respect and women need love thing. Instead we should go with people need love and respect. 

[Melissa Louise]

https://carolinecriadoperez.com/book/invisible-women/

Good book to read for data on systemic devaluing of girls and women and their needs.

 

[popmom]

32 minutes ago, Lecka said:

There is a real childcare shortage in my area.  I think the low wages paid to childcare workers reflects misogyny that women’s work just isn’t very important.

 

Basic childcare and child development is just seen as — I can’t describe it except to say, as a waste of time.

 

I personally have never seen a women act this way or display this attitude.  I’m searching my mind and can’t think of a single time.

 

I have known women who go to work and know their child is not being cared for in the best way, because their husband is home not working and not paying a lot of attention to the kids.

 

I have also known wonderful men who have taken great care of their kids during a period of unemployment etc.  

 

But I have seen the thing I’m talking about, it’s not my imagination, I can only wish that it were.  

When I was working full time, I used to hear women deriding stay at home moms all the time. It was ridiculous. I never heard men saying stuff like that. This is not to say that misogyny isn't a problem-a huge problem--just that my lived experience has been very, very different than what you described here. 

I also agree that childcare workers being underpaid is a form of it, except it is often times the women just as much as men loudly complaining when our local daycares raise their rates. Working women doen't want those workers paid a liveable wage either it seems. 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by popmom

[regentrude]

Misogyny is prevalent, and we are so used to it that we often do not recognize it when it is not in its most obvious and egregious form.
At its core, misogyny is treating women as less capable, as less valuable, than men. We see that for example in the low prestige that jobs carry which are traditionally done by women, compared with the high-prestige jobs that are in traditionally male dominated fields (even if there are now some women in these fields).
We come across misogyny when people assume the woman they encounter must be the secretary rather than the department chair. 
When emails address all male recipients as Dr. Lastname but the female recipient as Mrs.
When female staff members are disrespected and yelled at by male bosses (for whom there is no reprimand if they are the boss boss)
When women are not taken seriously by their doctors because their complaints have to be either psychosomatic or related to menopause.
When more money is spent studying diseases in male patients than in female patients.
The list is endless.

Misogyny hides even in well-meaning attempts to level the playing field. I recently gave a speech that was critical about the push for girls and women into STEM which often treats typical women's choices as "lesser" and the STEM professions as "better", and where often men tell women that they, the men, know better what the women should be wanting than the women themselves. (Ironically, my presentation was followed by a high-ranking male mansplaining to me and the female audience why I am wrong and why he knows better what women want).

 

[Melissa Louise]

Rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, violence against women and girls - endemic, driven by the dehumanisation of women and girls. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Men perpetuate misogyny - obligatory NAMALT. There is no particular race, class or sexuality of men who are exempt.

Women can perpetuate internalized misogyny. 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Rosie_0801]

An acquaintance of mine who didn't believe in institutional sexism against women might now, after seeing a female co-worker fired for being on the receiving end of domestic violence.

But maybe he still doesn't, since him yelling at the bosses about it didn't help her.

 

As to why women perpetuate misogyny, abuse is pretty cushy really. Once you've got your victims fearful, you can go do something else while they do it to themselves.

[Melissa Louise]

20 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

 

As to why women perpetuate misogyny, abuse is pretty cushy really. Once you've got your victims fearful, you can go do something else while they do it to themselves.

Plus, it's not comfy to align oneself with victim-survivors of misogyny.

Sensible women know which side their bread is buttered. 

 

[MercyA]

.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by MercyA

[wathe]

It's baked in to our patriarchal culture.  We are all swimming in misogyny tainted water and we're all so used to it that we don't even see it.  The social conditioning is invisible.

Example: 

Female doctors in Ontario earn 34 per cent less on average, even in fields they dominate, Globe analysis finds

This is after correcting for hours worked - it's not that women work fewer hours or work less hard, it's that disadvantages are baked into the system.  We all bill from the same fee-for-service fee schedule (socialized medicine).  Seem fair.  But it isn't:

Sex-specific procedures on female bodies pay less than the equivalent procedures on male bodies.  Misogyny.

Women surgeons get fewer referrals than men, and get referrals for less lucrative procedures.  Social conditioning.  Misogyny.

"Requests female physician" patients are often more complex and take more time (in addition to procedures that pay less in the first place).  Meanwhile, my male colleague will get through  2-3 other consults, which earns him 2-3x the $ than I make because I've spent the necessary time with a "requests female physician" patient.   Misogyny.

Female MDs are socially expected to spend more time with patients in general and socially expected to seem more caring.  There is absolutely no way that I could get away with the kinds of interpersonal "efficiencies" that my male colleagues do.  Social conditioning ---> misogyny

Female MDs are much more commonly mistaken for nurses and other support staff, which leads to constant interruptions in the ED.  I also have had other doctor's patients interrupt me while I'm doing a task instead of their own doctor because "he seems so busy".

Female MDs have to take time to establish that yes, they are the doctor.  Misogyny.

Female MDs work hard.  But, due to reasons listed above (and billion other small reasons having to do with social conditioning and living in a patriarchal culture) it is impossible for them to crank through the same patient volumes as men.  And the kind of work they do isn't valued.  Misogyny.

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

Interesting how many of the answers are about the low value put on child care.  This seems to assume that the primary work or value of women is their contribution to child care.  Do we value child care more if men do it?  I don't think so.  I think it's a matter of attitudes about childcare rather than attitudes about women, at least today.  I can see how it may have sprung from attitudes about traditional women in the past.

The other thing I find interesting is how sexual harassment is minimized.  I think it's much more minimized if a woman is sexually harassing a man (or boy) than when a female is on the receiving end.  So, minimizing sexual harassment is a problem, but it isn't specific to either gender IMO.

[bolt.]

1) How do you define "misogyny" in the context of your present-day real life?  Examples welcome.

My definition is that it is a detectable feature of a society or culture where women are generally viewed in any type of 'less than equal' way. It is an element of culture, and the field of study that examines it is sociology.

2) Who's perpetrating misogyny these days?  Why are they doing this?

Everyone is. It's a feature of our society as a whole. We're doing it because it is normal to act this way in our culture.

3) What should we do about this?

- Continue insisting that women are equal in every way.

- Develop a habit of consciously taking notice of any form of differentiation, exclusion, absence, or difference in outcomes where it pertains to women and men in society. As members of our own society, these actions and their results will seem perfectly normal and natural to us, and they will all have reasonable reasons for why they are the way they are. When we see them happening, we will often say to ourselves: "These things were freely chosen." or "That doesn't hurt anybody or imply inequality, it's just a difference without meaning." That's because we are in our home culture. We can't really help it, but we should watch for it.

- Use less gendered language; reduce the frequency with which we refer to gender when it's irrelevant; refrain from using gender to divide groups or provide anything when it's not directly relevant.

- Reject the messages both when they appear as toxic masculinity and when they appear as misogyny. Affirm 'femininity' (as it is defined in our culture) in both men and women.

[Melissa Louise]

I disagree with affirming femininity. 

Femininity is culture-bound, stereotypical, and a reflection of misogynist  norms. 

Let's just affirm female people as having equal value. 

[SKL]

29 minutes ago, wathe said:

It's baked in to our patriarchal culture.  We are all swimming in misogyny tainted water and we're all so used to it that we don't even see it.  The social conditioning is invisible.

Example: 

Female doctors in Ontario earn 34 per cent less on average, even in fields they dominate, Globe analysis finds

This is after correcting for hours worked - it's not that women work fewer hours or work less hard, it's that disadvantages are baked into the system.  We all bill from the same fee-for-service fee schedule (socialized medicine).  Seem fair.  But it isn't:

Sex-specific procedures on female bodies pay less than the equivalent procedures on male bodies.  Misogyny.

Women surgeons get fewer referrals than men, and get referrals for less lucrative procedures.  Social conditioning.  Misogyny.

"Requests female physician" patients are often more complex and take more time (in addition to procedures that pay less in the first place).  Meanwhile, my male colleague will get through  2-3 other consults, which earns him 2-3x the $ than I make because I've spent the necessary time with a "requests female physician" patient.   Misogyny.

Female MDs are socially expected to spend more time with patients in general and socially expected to seem more caring.  There is absolutely no way that I could get away with the kinds of interpersonal "efficiencies" that my male colleagues do.  Social conditioning ---> misogyny

Female MDs are much more commonly mistaken for nurses and other support staff, which leads to constant interruptions in the ED.  I also have had other doctor's patients interrupt me while I'm doing a task instead of their own doctor because "he seems so busy".

Female MDs have to take time to establish that yes, they are the doctor.  Misogyny.

Female MDs work hard.  But, due to reasons listed above (and billion other small reasons having to do with social conditioning and living in a patriarchal culture) it is impossible for them to crank through the same patient volumes as men.  And the kind of work they do isn't valued.  Misogyny.

I agree with this.

I guess I view this as male doctors being able to get away with doing a relatively sucky job ... basically men cheating and getting away with it.  Everyone gives them a pass, because that's what we've gotten used to.

I'm one who tries to select a female practitioner whenever I can.  It's not that I want to exploit female professionals.  I want my daughters to not grow up thinking doctor = man, ; I want a practitioner who understands what it is to be a woman; and I want demand for female practitioners to be as high as that for male practitioners.  I would pay more for a better patient experience, which I'm free to do here in the US.

I also have a brother who's a nurse, and he sees the other side of some of this, but funny thing, his pay is probably above average for the industry.  I think part of that is because there are benefits to having a big, strong, relatively imposing-looking nurse on staff ... for lifting, dealing with combative patients, etc.  But it may be more than that.

As a woman professional (lawyer/MBA/CPA), I observe some sex differences that are difficult to explain, and there may be some crossover with the above.  For one thing, men seem to have a high (perhaps inflated) concept of how valuable their time is; while women seem to feel less valuable.  Not that they are consciously comparing themselves to the opposite sex.  Just observing salary asks ... men generally start with an ask that is higher than what women ask ... and whoever's doing the hiring will think, subconsciously, that the person asking more is probably worth more.  In addition, once on staff, male office professionals also seem to be more protective of their time than women.  I have lots of thoughts about this, but I really don't know why we are like that.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

There is a real childcare shortage in my area.  I think the low wages paid to childcare workers reflects misogyny that women’s work just isn’t very important.

I think the same about teaching, but not to the same degree.

I absolutely am around people (men) who totally devalue child development and think it’s stupid to care about child development.  They think it’s just not a big deal and will take care of itself.  They have idiotic ideas about how to “handle” children who are having behavioral problems etc.

It is definitely not all men, but it’s something I absolutely run into, and I despise it.  
 

They do not value or prioritize childcare or the work their wives do to take care of their kids.  It’s seen as beyond a waste of time.  It’s like they are doing something stupid.  
 

Basic childcare and child development is just seen as — I can’t describe it except to say, as a waste of time.

 

I personally have never seen a women act this way or display this attitude.  I’m searching my mind and can’t think of a single time.

 

I have known women who go to work and know their child is not being cared for in the best way, because their husband is home not working and not paying a lot of attention to the kids.

 

I have also known wonderful men who have taken great care of their kids during a period of unemployment etc.  

 

But I have seen the thing I’m talking about, it’s not my imagination, I can only wish that it were.  

While I’ve also seen what you are talking about, I personally don’t think it’s related to misogyny, more just plain stupidity. And in general I think childcare workers aren’t paid very well because it already represents a very large expenditure for many families. Without the government subsidizing it as in many other countries, many families simply can’t afford to pay what it’s worth. And I think the pushback against subsidies is more related to fears of socialism than misogyny.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

When I was working full time, I used to hear women deriding stay at home moms all the time. It was ridiculous. I never heard men saying stuff like that. This is not to say that misogyny isn't a problem-a huge problem--just that my lived experience has been very, very different than what you described here. 

I also agree that childcare workers being underpaid is a form of it, except it is often times the women just as much as men loudly complaining when our local daycares raise their rates. Working women doen't want those workers paid a liveable wage either it seems. 

 

I definitely have seen your experience more than the previous poster’s of only men devaluing childcare. I honestly think people just don’t value their children enough. The same could be said for what we pay those who work in nursing homes, home health aide, etc. Many people don’t value work that doesn’t produce $.

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

As a woman professional (lawyer/MBA/CPA), I observe some sex differences that are difficult to explain, and there may be some crossover with the above.  For one thing, men seem to have a high (perhaps inflated) concept of how valuable their time is; while women seem to feel less valuable.  Not that they are consciously comparing themselves to the opposite sex.  Just observing salary asks ... men generally start with an ask that is higher than what women ask ... and whoever's doing the hiring will think, subconsciously, that the person asking more is probably worth more.  In addition, once on staff, male office professionals also seem to be more protective of their time than women.  I have lots of thoughts about this, but I really don't know why we are like that.

Studies have shown that in general, males are more confident in their abilities and overestimate them while the opposite is generally true for women. Also, studies show that ultimately, confidence is more important than competence when others are evaluating us.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Studies have shown that in general, males are more confident in their abilities and overestimate them while the opposite is generally true for women. Also, studies show that ultimately, confidence is more important than competence when others are evaluating us.

Yes ... and I don't think that's "misogyny."  But I don't know what it is.  Just plain sex differences?

I came up with an idea at some point ... if you're shorter (most women) and you're looking up at/to a guy, from a basic instinct perspective, that look may tend to be seen as from someone weaker, while if you're looking down at a shorter person, your look may tend to be seen as from someone dominant.  Just one of many thoughts I've had over the years.

[Melissa Louise]

There are studies out there showing the differences in how we socialize baby boys as compared to baby girls, even from pre-birth. I'm sure that accounts for some of the difference in confidence. 

I'm not a blank slatist though - I don't think all population differences between males and females are environmental and can be put down to socialization. I think there are some very real sex-based differences between the sexes at a population level (which makes sense, as we have different reproductive roles). 

It isn't misogyny to see that some (limited) sex-based differences exist in populations.

It is misogynist to place a higher value on one sex than the other, and to make traits which may be more typical of one sex, the standard by which both sexes are measured and valued.

 

 

 

[Ginevra]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

Yes ... and I don't think that's "misogyny."  But I don't know what it is.  Just plain sex differences?

I came up with an idea at some point ... if you're shorter (most women) and you're looking up at/to a guy, from a basic instinct perspective, that look may tend to be seen as from someone weaker, while if you're looking down at a shorter person, your look may tend to be seen as from someone dominant.  Just one of many thoughts I've had over the years.

Yes; there is a well-documented bias towards tallness, no matter the gender. When it comes to work, anyway. It is easier for a taller person to make a strong impression of confidence and competence; it is harder for small people to project that as effectively. 
 

There were some interesting studies about tallness and Presidential candidates. It holds true far more often than not that the taller candidate has a better chance of securing nomination and then winning. 

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

How do you define "misogyny" in the context of your present-day real life?  Examples welcome.

2) Who's perpetrating misogyny these days?  Why are they doing this?

3) What should we do about this?

Before reading other responses…

1. Systematic disregard for female equality.

2. Everyone. Because some benefit from it and the rest of us are socially conditioned.

3. Actively work to dismantle assumptions and systems.

Taking the childcare crisis that is coming to a head, who is most likely to leave the workforce? Why?

Females are underrepresented in positions of power. Why?

Females are over represented in all forms of abuse from known and unknown attackers. Why?

Females are paid less for equal work. Why?

Female dominated professions are valued less than male dominated professions in dollars and status. Why?

Female promiscuity is judged negatively while male promiscuity is encouraged. Why?

If you dig to the root of all of the whys, you eventually get to women being viewed and treated as less than fully human. Cis-het-white men of the right SEC are the most human of humans, yk?

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

Interesting how many of the answers are about the low value put on child care.  This seems to assume that the primary work or value of women is their contribution to child care.  Do we value child care more if men do it?  I don't think so.  I think it's a matter of attitudes about childcare rather than attitudes about women, at least today.  I can see how it may have sprung from attitudes about traditional women in the past.

The other thing I find interesting is how sexual harassment is minimized.  I think it's much more minimized if a woman is sexually harassing a man (or boy) than when a female is on the receiving end.  So, minimizing sexual harassment is a problem, but it isn't specific to either gender IMO.

Child rearing is essential to our societal existence. It impacts all of us across the lifespan equally. (As a whole; I don’t want anyone to think I think all women must make humans.)
So why isn’t the work (other than carrying, birthing, and perhaps breastfeeding) shared equally across the genders, whether parent or hired caregiver?

[Faith-manor]

Here is one big glaring proof of how widespread misogyny is:

The Equal Rights Amendment was never ratified. No one will renew the amendment and attempt to ratify it again because they have no faith that the needed 38 states will vote for it.

Recently legislation that would have guaranteed bathroom breaks and water for pregnant women failed to pass congress.

Seeing women as something other than full humans is rampant today. 

[SKL]

30 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Here is one big glaring proof of how widespread misogyny is:

The Equal Rights Amendment was never ratified. No one will renew the amendment and attempt to ratify it again because they have no faith that the needed 38 states will vote for it.

Recently legislation that would have guaranteed bathroom breaks and water for pregnant women failed to pass congress.

Seeing women as something other than full humans is rampant today. 

The two examples you listed are in conflict with each other.  One supposedly treats everyone the same, the other is intended to provide treatment to people of one sex only.  (I never heard of that 2nd one btw.)

When I was a kid, the reason given to me for why women didn't want the ERA was that the ERA would require women as well as men to register and be drafted into the army.  I'm not against both sexes serving their country in a crisis, but apparently a lot of women were/are.  Maybe there was more to it, I don't know, but it's also kinda outdated since we have other laws that cover most of what the ERA would theoretically have addressed.  Or maybe because people have realized that the existing problems aren't the type that a nationwide law is likely to fix.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Child rearing is essential to our societal existence. It impacts all of us across the lifespan equally. (As a whole; I don’t want anyone to think I think all women must make humans.)
So why isn’t the work (other than carrying, birthing, and perhaps breastfeeding) shared equally across the genders, whether parent or hired caregiver?

I don't know why, in this day.  My brother was a SAHD/student for years, and I know other SAHDs who choose that because their wife makes a lot of money and they are happier to cook and stuff.  It works for them.  For me, I really love caring for children, so I probably wouldn't want equal sharing, but that would be decided mutually were I married.

I mean, I guess it often goes back to the fact that male-dominated jobs pay more, but for women who make decent money and still choose to do more than 50% of the domestic duties, I think it's a mutual choice in each household.  Maybe women are genetically wired to prefer more time with their kids (on average).  It would make scientific sense IMO.  And no, I don't think we need to pay SAHMs (or SAHDs) for taking care of their own kids, though family/probate law needs to recognize the value in case of death or divorce.

Edited September 28, 2023 by SKL

[TheReader]

I've never really thought of it in terms of a thing to define. 

Experiences I've had, though, that fit the bill (and still recently): 

...taking my car in for an oil change - this was in college, so a while ago - and my now DH was with me. I walk up to the counter and ask for the oil change, for my car, in my name. The clerk looks to (now) DH and asks what kind of oil does the car take?  DH, bless him, said "Well, it's her car, you should ask her."  

...a few weeks ago, talking to a male parent of one of my students, about what kind of car we're looking to buy.  Me: "I think we're going with a Rav-4"  Him: "Oh, you'll hate that, it's way too small"  Me: "No, we looked at one this weekend and it was incredible; I really love it."  Him:  "No, no, it's way too cramped inside, way too small, you need a 6-seater at least..."  Me:  "No, we're downsizing the car on purpose, we'll still have the minivan for backup but for day-to-day, something smaller will be great, I'm really excited about it."  Him: "mmm, You should look at what I have, it's a great car, that's much better for you..."   And on and on and on he went, thinking he (a man) knows better what kind of car I (a woman) want for myself.  :sigh:  

...at fencing - one of the older guys routinely praises/compliments/comments on my "great physique for fencing"  (tall, thin); he's also said this to new visitors "doesn't she have the perfect build for fencing epee?"   :sigh:  "Well, she is slender, which does make her a smaller target, but luckily fencing is a sport for all types of physiques, and body shape really has nothing to do with it...." 

...at fencing -- one of the other older guys routinely goes into "coach/student" mode when fencing me (only a few years younger than him) or any of the teen girls.  Oddly enough, he never goes into this "coach/student" mode with the male fencers, whether they've been fencing just as long or even less/shorter amount of time than me or the other females.  

...in general, the idea that a woman can't drive long distances alone (but a guy could make the same trip solo, no big deal); other little things like that. 

...in general, the overall idea that women *need* taking care of in all things. My DH & I actually butt heads on this from time to time; for him, it does come from a place of love & care (acts of service is his main love language), and I make myself remember that, otherwise sometimes it grates on me. Mostly I try to exercise gratitude for it. But for ex, when he goes out of town for work, he'll go overboard on doing stuff to prep for things he normally does while home. So, for ex, he makes my lunch on school days as just a nice thing he does for me. Cool. I don't mind that. But then he was going out of town for work, so he insisted on packing ahead all the lunches, including using lunchables. No matter how much I protested, he would NOT back down on that. So I don't know if that really fits, b/c it is a thing when he does it in the moment I love, but when he does it ahead, it feels off. 

 

Anyway, all that to say, it's certainly still alive & well in some places.

[Carrie12345]

29 minutes ago, SKL said:

The two examples you listed are in conflict with each other.  One supposedly treats everyone the same, the other is intended to provide treatment to people of one sex only.  (I never heard of that 2nd one btw.)

When I was a kid, the reason given to me for why women didn't want the ERA was that the ERA would require women as well as men to register and be drafted into the army.  I'm not against both sexes serving their country in a crisis, but apparently a lot of women were/are.  Maybe there was more to it, I don't know, but it's also kinda outdated since we have other laws that cover most of what the ERA would theoretically have addressed.  Or maybe because people have realized that the existing problems aren't the type that a nationwide law is likely to fix.

Equality isn’t “treating everyone the same” in that everyone gets the same box. It’s giving the appropriate sized box for the person/group.

21 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't know why, in this day.  My brother was a SAHD/student for years, and I know other SAHDs who choose that because their wife makes a lot of money and they are happier to cook and stuff.  It works for them.  For me, I really love caring for children, so I probably wouldn't want equal sharing, but that would be decided mutually were I married.

I mean, I guess it often goes back to the fact that male-dominated jobs pay more, but for women who make decent money and still choose to do more than 50% of the domestic duties, I think it's a mutual choice in each household.  Maybe women are genetically wired to prefer more time with their kids (on average).  It would make scientific sense IMO.  And no, I don't think we need to pay SAHMs (or SAHDs) for taking care of their own kids, though family/probate law needs to recognize the value in case of death or divorce.

I don’t believe it’s genuinely a mutual choice. Overall, I highly doubt there are many women (or men) who WANT to change more diapers outside of working hours, clean more bottles, scrub more toilets, or do more bedtime routines than their “partners”.

I think it’s super easy for stay at home parents to fall into that because they’re more efficient at what they do all day.   
Other parents are capable of gaining efficiency… but often don’t.   
(And my household is guilty.)

It took Dh way too long to recognize my contribution. And then he still hasn’t entirely adjusted to me having additional obligations. Frankly, neither have I. Especially since my obligations do not currently provide income. It’s harder to wrestle with than it should be, and that annoys me about myself. 

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t believe it’s genuinely a mutual choice. Overall, I highly doubt there are many women (or men) who WANT to change more diapers outside of working hours, clean more bottles, scrub more toilets, or do more bedtime routines than their “partners”.

I dunno, if I have a choice between dealing with a high-maintenance client's issue and scrubbing a toilet, I'd rather scrub the toilet.  😛  Which is why my house is in better shape than my inbox.

[bolt.]

11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I disagree with affirming femininity. 

Femininity is culture-bound, stereotypical, and a reflection of misogynist  norms. 

Let's just affirm female people as having equal value. 

That's fair. On closer thinking, I think I mean that I'd like to see most personal characteristics affirmed and praised, whether in men or women, particularly those that are currently culture-bound to be read as 'feminine' -- because they currently tend not to be praised or affirmed in the context of Misogyny.

Currently we get "Men shouldn't have abc characteristic because it's womanly, and if they have it, their status is lowered." -and- "Women shouldn't express abc characteristic because it lowers their status in their social contexts and in their own eyes." Rather, I'd be happy to see anyone who has abc characteristic affirmed that it is a normal component of human life, and we are happy to see it being expressed population-wide.

[4kidlets4me]

The fact that I don't have bodily autonomy in all 50 states in 2023 is proof misogyny is alive and well.

[gardenmom5]

My midwestern narcissistic grandmother was very much a misogynist.  "take lots of typing classes so you can put your husband through college".  Tells my brother to go to college and get a good education . . . .   My father died, and she told my brother he was the head of the family now . . . (this isn't a farm where you are reliant on a strong back to plant your field and bring in the harvest . . . )

[Heartstrings]

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

why isn’t the work (other than carrying, birthing, and perhaps breastfeeding) shared equally across the genders, whether parent or hired caregiver?

I think this exactly an example of modern misogyny, it’s just so common and pervasive that we don’t even recognize it as such.  The clearest answer seems to be “because that’s women’s work” and men as a whole get to opt out.   

[Heartstrings]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I guess it often goes back to the fact that male-dominated jobs pay more, but for women who make decent money and still choose to do more than 50% of the domestic duties, I think it's a mutual choice in each household. 

It’s mutual to a point.  It is sort of a choice, but it’s also cultural conditioning.  Who gets judged if the house isn’t clean?  Who gets blamed for dirty kids?  If Dad refuses to change a diaper most women don’t have the ability to just let baby sit in poo until Dad gives in.   Women will jump in and take care of things because the other option is neglecting the children.  That’s a choice of sorts, but not a well thought out, mutually agreed upon one.  
  

 

I think the number of women choosing to stay single, or choosing to leave relationships because of domestic labor says that women are getting tired of it.  As the stigma of being single lessens I think we’ll see this more and more.   Women don’t have to accept working, plus doing childcare and all of the household duties all while the hubby plays video games for 6 hours every evening.  
 

Meanwhile a number of single men complain about women not being willing to do things like mom and grandma did. They really want women who will work, and do all the domestic labor while asking nothing of the men.  
 

These 2 things combined are going to reach a crisis at some point. 

[rebcoola]

Healthcare!!

Women are still told by OB their cervix has no nerves.  Women are given tylenol for a c-section because of the pain med crisis but men are given them for a vasectomy.

I cant find the link right now I will try and dig later but I saw a few weeks a ago a study that showed how much healthcare is worse for women.  

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the number of women choosing to stay single, or choosing to leave relationships because of domestic labor says that women are getting tired of it.  As the stigma of being single lessens I think we’ll see this more and more.   Women don’t have to accept working, plus doing childcare and all of the household duties all while the hubby plays video games for 6 hours every evening.  
 

Meanwhile a number of single men complain about women not being willing to do things like mom and grandma did. They really want women who will work, and do all the domestic labor while asking nothing of the men.  
 

These 2 things combined are going to reach a crisis at some point. 

I had a whole answer to this, but I decided not to be argumentative.  I'll just say that I don't generally see this in the generations currently raising kids.

As a mom of girls, I need to make sure my kids are ready to be realistic and communicative when laying down ground rules for sharing a home.

[Heartstrings]

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

I had a whole answer to this, but I decided not to be argumentative.  I'll just say that I don't generally see this in the generations currently raising kids.

As a mom of girls, I need to make sure my kids are ready to be realistic and communicative when laying down ground rules for sharing a home.

I think some of that is that everyone lives in sort of a bubble.  No one I directly know is leaving because hubby won’t do dishes or change diapers, but Im aware of being in a traditional, religious, homeschool bubble. Very few people that I know personally are divorced, or single.  If I went by my circle I would put the homeschool rate at 90%, the divorce rate at 10%, and the mothers working full time rate at around 2%, but I know that’s not representative of the whole country.

 

I’ve listened to interviews, read articles, and listened to stories of people in different demographics than me.  It’s a growing problem out there.  I don’t know percentages, but in a country the size of ours if something is happening to even only 1% that’s a lot of individuals.   
 

I too try to have discussions with my kids about being careful when choosing a life partner.  It’s a big decision that needs some logic applied, not just hormones and vibes.  
 

 

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I had a whole answer to this, but I decided not to be argumentative.  I'll just say that I don't generally see this in the generations currently raising kids.

I was going to agree with you, until my husband reminded me of all the families and couples we fizzled out with that don't talk to and respect each other. Usually it's because the wife just does all the things and never tells her husband any of it bothers her, the husband is a complete misogynist and thinks it's woman's work, or a combination of both. Somehow those relationships are just exhausting. (To be sure we also fizzled out with a family where the husband did everything and the wife thought it was unreasonable that anything should be asked of her. I could not bond with that wife at all.)

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I was going to agree with you, until my husband reminded me of all the families and couples we fizzled out with that don't talk to and respect each other. Usually it's because the wife just does all the things and never tells her husband any of it bothers her, the husband is a complete misogynist and thinks it's woman's work, or a combination of both. Somehow those relationships are just exhausting. (To be sure we also fizzled out with a family where the husband did everything and the wife thought it was unreasonable that anything should be asked of her. I could not bond with that wife at all.)

Yeah my brother (now about 60) had a bit of friction early in his marriage, because he was WOH and his wife was not employed.  Wife didn't cook, but my brother is a great cook, so he did that.  And car stuff, yard stuff ....  But neither of them was into cleaning.  My brother just assumed that his wife was going to clean some while he was working / cooking / mowing ....  One day he complained that there was no place to put down his glass of water, and all hell broke loose.  😛  I don't know what all happened in between, but they are still married and have a grown son.  🙂  I don't think my brother was wrong to expect his wife to feel responsible for some house cleaning.  I don't know what her issue was.  Surely she didn't think her husband should work full-time AND do all the housework while she did neither?  But I guess it's on both parties to talk about it sooner rather than later.  Talking was never a strong point for either spouse.

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, 4kidlets4me said:

The fact that I don't have bodily autonomy in all 50 states in 2023 is proof misogyny is alive and well.

This!

[Soror]

Just because there are a few sahd's and some men doing housework doesn't mean it's even.  We're still miles from that. Even when women and men both work women are more likely to take off with kids and do the vast majority of the housework. I see even with Dads home most of the time Mom's take care of everything with the hsers I know. I know I told my family when I started working they would be helping more and I've told dh there will be Reorganization if labor when he graduates.  We practiced that this summer. It's hard to model this as a sahm. 

I see this in my job. My cases are almost always in the wives/moms name (done by DFS). I'm constantly fighting the expectations that the Mom is responsible for all the things, with the Moms and DFS. I had a conversation today with my otherwise very woke young client - this isn't all of your work. Your husband has to help too but she doesn't want to fight him about it. 

Of course I'm also in a field that is primarily female and like most of these the pay is sh*t. Noone wants to do it but everyone thinks they know what should be done. The lack of respect is acceptable and widespread 

[Xahm]

My daughter is in a girl's BSA troop. The existence of such a thing causes some people's misogyny to shine through. I understand some people would prefer single-gender activities, and I don't mind too much when some fool reacts badly, assuming that camping trips are now some free for all orgy. I simply explain that the girls want to have the same opportunities as the boys and that we have high moral standards for behavior, and that girls are certainly encouraged to join Girl Scouts instead if that program is a better fit for them. One guy, however, recently kept walking away and then coming back to lay on more insults. I had explained that troops are single gender, that both girls and boys are expected to not get involved romantically or sexually at scouting events, and he still shot back at me "morally straight! How can they be morally straight with Girls in it?" Still not sure if he was insinuating that girls can't be morally straight or that boys are incapable of being morally straight around girls (in which case, what is he confessing to having done when in Co Ed environments?). He also went off, incorrectly, about how women on navy ships just got constantly pregnant and so they are now back to being banned. He was talking about this in front of 6-10 year olds selling popcorn outside a grocery store.

Most people aren't nearly so bad, but when we go to events, male scout masters often mansplain like crazy! It's rewarding to see how many of them are willing to apologize and say their minds have been changed after watching girls and women scout successfully, but it's sort of "1 misogynist converted, 394 remain."

[Sneezyone]

Everytime someone crooks their lips to call a female military spouse a "dependa" or suggests they find themselves a "Jody", which is weekly (daily if you ask a larger sample). These things mean the woman is a lazy, fat, mooch who does nothing while her spouse works a  military job. Doesn't matter if she works, has worked, is working at home with children, is in school...

That's misogyny.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ting Tang]

I’m a SAHM and I think the working moms in my extended family think I have nothing to do, to the extent I’m not to be asked of my availability. I also feel talked down  to by one of them at times, despite being well-educated. I’m not sure if that’s misogyny, but it is stereotyping. In real life, I feel like I am better respected by men. I had to get an oil change today and discuss a trans flush, and I felt like an equal. I know, though, that some things are still very unfair for women. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Sneezyone]

Oh, man...

That time I took off on two weeks notice to go to Puerto Rico with my friends and DH flipped his lid while he travels (and has for two and a half decades) on a few days notice without giving it a second thought (he srsly could have requested leave but it never crossed his mind)? That part.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sneezyone

[maize]

The devaluation of cargiving work, both paid and unpaid, is a huge issue.

It's a self-feeding cycle--society undervalues women because they engage in caregiving, and society undervalues caregiving because women engage in it. 

Years ago I read the book Unfinished Business that discussed the failure of the various generations of feminism to address the undervaluing of caregiving and caregivers. It proposed that there are two major spheres of labor: competitive and caregiving. We value the competitive sphere and those who engage in it, and we devalue the caregiving sphere and those who engage in it.

If we want to fully value women as integral and fully participant members of society and of the general economy,  we need to bring caregiving to the forefront and put it on equal standing with the competitive sphere. Part of the way forward could be normalizing non-linear, non-exclusive career progressions. A capable adult unburdened by caregiving responsibilities can dedicate themselves in a focused, linear, uninterrupted manner to education and career. An adult who takes on significant caregiving in addition to or, for some period of time,  instead of, an exclusive focus on self-development and career cannot compete on an equitable basis in the system as it currently exists.

But the system does not have to be as inflexible as it is. We can build in greater flexibility in educational paths, greater flexibility in employment--make it easy to step back from 40 hours per week to 10-20 hours per week for example,  then ramp back up just as easily later. Provide more supportive internship and returnship opportunities for women who have stepped out of the employment field for a time to care for children. I'm currently working part-time as a placement coordinator for an organization dedicated to helping moms get into tech careers, and just opening up intership opportunities to people who aren't currently full-time college students would remove one of our most significant barriers to helping women get a foot in the door. There are plenty of low-cost, flexible, and even free training options for many tech fields-- we have women learning to code, earning professional certifications, etc. Access to training isn't a primary barrier. It's access to the entry-level, experience-building positions that are available to young,  unencumbered people following a traditional full-time student path.

There's no reason that can't change.  

I spent today at a tech conference talking about these issues with every industry representative who would listen. 

[wathe]

5 hours ago, Xahm said:

My daughter is in a girl's BSA troop. The existence of such a thing causes some people's misogyny to shine through. I understand some people would prefer single-gender activities, and I don't mind too much when some fool reacts badly, assuming that camping trips are now some free for all orgy. I simply explain that the girls want to have the same opportunities as the boys and that we have high moral standards for behavior, and that girls are certainly encouraged to join Girl Scouts instead if that program is a better fit for them. One guy, however, recently kept walking away and then coming back to lay on more insults. I had explained that troops are single gender, that both girls and boys are expected to not get involved romantically or sexually at scouting events, and he still shot back at me "morally straight! How can they be morally straight with Girls in it?" Still not sure if he was insinuating that girls can't be morally straight or that boys are incapable of being morally straight around girls (in which case, what is he confessing to having done when in Co Ed environments?). He also went off, incorrectly, about how women on navy ships just got constantly pregnant and so they are now back to being banned. He was talking about this in front of 6-10 year olds selling popcorn outside a grocery store.

Most people aren't nearly so bad, but when we go to events, male scout masters often mansplain like crazy! It's rewarding to see how many of them are willing to apologize and say their minds have been changed after watching girls and women scout successfully, but it's sort of "1 misogynist converted, 394 remain."

Scouts Canada has been co-ed for almost 30 years.  Troops and patrols are fully integrated.   Girls and boys camp together.  The only time my group separates by gender is shared tents.  We would make your BSA misogynists' heads explode!

We don't have full equity in scouting yet (particularly, the very top adult leadership levels still dominated by men),  but Canadian scouting is one place where there is generally less misogyny than in general society.  DEIR is taken seriously, and it shows.  Our female youth really do get the same opportunities as males, are just as likely to be in youth leadership roles as males, and are accorded the respect they deserve.

Edited September 29, 2023 by wathe

[Xahm]

22 minutes ago, wathe said:

Scouts Canada has been co-ed for almost 30 years.  Troops and patrols are fully integrated.   Girls and boys camp together.  The only time my group separates by gender is shared tents.  We would make your BSA misogynists' heads explode!

We don't have full equity in scouting yet (particularly, the very top adult leadership levels still dominated by men),  but Canadian scouting is one place where there is generally less misogyny than in general society.  DEIR is taken seriously, and it shows.  Our female youth really do get the same opportunities as males, are just as likely to be in youth leadership roles as males, and are accorded the respect they deserve.

I think the attitudes are changing very quickly among the youth, and it's sometimes surprising to me see stolid old scouters singing the praises of having girls in the BSA (I have to check my stereotypes myself), but there's room for growth, for sure. I know the examples of other countries show that it's more than possible to go fully integrated, and I think we'll get there eventually. 

[Frances]

13 hours ago, SKL said:

I dunno, if I have a choice between dealing with a high-maintenance client's issue and scrubbing a toilet, I'd rather scrub the toilet.  😛  Which is why my house is in better shape than my inbox.

Most people don’t have this choice because they don’t work from home for their own business. They are generally doing housework outside of work hours. Studies consistently show that women devote more time to housework than men and I don’t think it’s by conscious choice most of the time.