So, why do you wear a bra?

[dirty ethel rackham]

4 hours ago, Lawana said:

1. So that my belly doesn’t stick out farther that my boobs. 
2. To avoid skin on skin contact. Hate the feeling. 

This.  After 10 years of pregnancy/nursing and very large weight fluctuations, the books have moved to the bottom shelf. I feel like I look more put together with a decent fitting bra.  Also, after nursing for so long and feeling so "touched out", I can't stand lots of motion.  I feel weird walking around my house without one.  The only time I have felt real discomfort from a bra is when it was the wrong size (too big or too small) or when I had bruised ribs.  

Before children when I had next to nothing on top, I wore bras to 1) hide the nipples and 2) attempt to balance out my chest to my hips (which weren't big, just that my chest was that small.

4 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

Gah

I shave armpits and below the knees when someone might see (armpits all the time). I know I could stop, but it's sooooo ingrained that I really feel uncivilized and gross when I don't shave. It's amazing to me how firmly internalized this completely made-up requirement is, and it makes me wonder what ideas or beliefs I take completely for granted that are in fact just internalized cultural patriarchy.

<snip>

 I have high hopes that ours (millennials) are the last generation to be thus encumbered. But maybe I just know above-averagely-independent-minded Gen Zers.

I once toyed with the idea of giving up shaving, but then I hit perimenopause and my pits smelled really bad.  Shaving seemed to cut down on the hormonal sweat stink.  I had to get rid of most of my shirts from that time because I couldn't get the smell out.  I never got really comfortable with the idea.  I first shaved at like age 9 or 10 because I started to get more noticeable leg hair and was very self-conscious about it and worried about getting bullied by other girls.  I stole my older sister's razor and had lots of cuts and nicks.  She had to teach me how to do it right.  

DD23 rarely shaves her armpits.  But she is one of the few.  She has never said it was to rebel against the patriarchy, but that she can't be bothered.  Her boyfriend is a swimmer and he shaves more than she does.

[Elizabeth86]

4 hours ago, Kassia said:

I'm this way too.  I shave my legs and armpits daily - even during our long winters. I just don't feel clean without doing it even though I know that's silly.  

I only wear a bra when I'm out and not wearing layers.  I wear one because my breasts are so saggy and I'm uncomfortable with the outline/nipples showing plus everything fits/looks better with the support.  

Same! I have lots of friends and family that don’t shave in the winter, but I feel miserable not shaving. It’s so itchy. 

[Wheres Toto]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Am I the only person who feels zero discomfort having no layer between my body and my shirt?  If I didn't read it here, I wouldn't even think that was a thing.

I only wear my half-camis when I leave the house to go to work.  At home, shopping, random activities I usually have nothing on under shirts.   Even the half-camis come off the second I'm home (or in the car on the way home sometimes).  

[Wheres Toto]

I last shaved sometime around June or July of 2022.  Maybe.  I'm not sure I ever shaved last summer.    I think I might have because I think I wore shorts to work.   I didn't work as much this summer and didn't bother.   

My older daughter definitely shaves all the time all year round, but younger daughter never has shaved anything.  I don't think it's a protest against patriarchy or anything.  I think she just doesn't care, I didn't raise her to think it was a necessary thing, and she hasn't run into any peer pressure about it.    

My older daughter also always wears a bra.  ALWAYS.   I think it's nuts.

Younger daughter is my mini-me.  

Both daughters wear larger sizes than I do (in bras). 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Wheres Toto

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, marbel said:

Here  you go!

https://www.costco.com/felina-ladies'-reversible-tank%2C-4-pack.product.100672209.html

 

Do you recommend sizing up? I have leggings from that brand (Felina) that I love, and I'd like to get some of these tanks, but I'm not sure what size to order since most of the reviews say they run very small — like someone who said she's normally a 4-6 said the XL fits like a 6!

[marbel]

9 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Do you recommend sizing up? I have leggings from that brand (Felina) that I love, and I'd like to get some of these tanks, but I'm not sure what size to order since most of the reviews say they run very small — like someone who said she's normally a 4-6 said the XL fits like a 6!

I checked the size. I had said I bought them one size smaller than my usual size, but I was wrong. I bought XL. For t-shirts I wear L to XL, depending on the brand. So I bought my usual size/a size up. They fit snugly but not tightly if that makes sense. More snugly than I would wear a shirt. Perfectly comfy and everything is held in place.

I hope that helps? Clothing sizes are so hard!

[J-rap]

I guess because I live in a culture that seems to imply that that this is comfortable and respectful.  Is this true?  I don't know.

[thatfirstsip]

47 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I guess because I live in a culture that seems to imply that that this is comfortable and respectful.  Is this true?  I don't know.

Comfort seems to vary.

Respectful is exactly why I wear one out, thanks for articulating that for me. 

In separate news: yikes, man. Since when is the shape or confinement of my breasts a respect issue? 

It's not like underwear (panties); those I wear for comfort. It's absolutely a social marker of "I am compliant with expected norms, don't judge me or think I'm weird." But I don't wear makeup often, which in my area is socially abnormal.

Those of you who don't wear bras (and don't have the kind of breasts where you can't really tell anyway): do you ever see other women your age who don't wear them? Is it just more socially neutral, or are you exceptionally resistant to social pressure?

[Kassia]

24 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

But I don't wear makeup often, which in my area is socially abnormal.

Those of you who don't wear bras (and don't have the kind of breasts where you can't really tell anyway): do you ever see other women your age who don't wear them? Is it just more socially neutral, or are you exceptionally resistant to social pressure?

I rarely wear makeup and think it's mixed in my area between women my age who do and don't.  I feel more confident when I wear it out, but I'm too lazy to do it most of the time.  It really depends on where I'm going and who I'm going to see. 

Good point about society pressure and the bra.  I only wear a bra when I'm out if it would be noticeable that I wasn't and realized I would be extremely uncomfortable and self-conscious knowing it was obvious I wasn't wearing a bra.  I don't think I've ever seen a woman around here without one. 

BTW, I wanted to say that even though I shave daily, I don't care at all if other women shave or not.

[Melissa Louise]

47 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

Comfort seems to vary.

Respectful is exactly why I wear one out, thanks for articulating that for me. 

In separate news: yikes, man. Since when is the shape or confinement of my breasts a respect issue? 

It's not like underwear (panties); those I wear for comfort. It's absolutely a social marker of "I am compliant with expected norms, don't judge me or think I'm weird." But I don't wear makeup often, which in my area is socially abnormal.

Those of you who don't wear bras (and don't have the kind of breasts where you can't really tell anyway): do you ever see other women your age who don't wear them? Is it just more socially neutral, or are you exceptionally resistant to social pressure?

One of my kids doesn't - it's not socially neutral. Autistic - somewhat oblivious to social pressure?

[KidsHappen]

8 hours ago, Kassia said:

I've been lifting weights for most of my life and my breasts are still incredibly droopy/saggy.  4 kids who breastfed a long time may have something to do with that but I don't know.  My pectoral muscles can't keep my breasts from drooping.

I don't think it's awful at all that you want to go topless in your own backyard.  ETA - oops, I think you meant it's awful to want more sunshine on your skin!  😛   I'll never understand why men can go topless but not women.  

In many states women can go topless anywhere that men can.

[KidsHappen]

7 hours ago, Kassia said:

Quoting myself and apologizing for going way off topic, but it's ridiculous that not only can men go topless, but  women can't even breastfeed in public while men can walk around with their nipples exposed!  How did this happen?  

Also women can legally breastfeed anywhere that they are legally (public and private) allowed to be in all fifty states.

[KidsHappen]

Before kids I was much less well endowed and things were still firm and high as Bob Seager would say so I only wore bras when absolutely had to (basically school). Then I spent about a decade and a half in very supportive nursing bras. I came out the other end in a 38DD. I find most bras very uncomfortable and with my neurological problems I have a hard time managing them so I only wear bras when I leave my house. I do think that the next time I buy a bra I am going to try and find one that closes in the front. Things aren't as perky as they used to be so I really do look better in a good bra and it makes my books stand out more than my stomach. However, I rarely leave the house so I rarely wear a bra. I basically live in pjs or robes. I gave up shaving years ago and before that I only waxed my pits and legs in the summer. I quit wearing makeup when I quit working and I get a haircut about once a year. I am just now starting to get a few silver hairs but I intend to grey naturally. So my cost of upkeep is pretty minimal which leave more money for real books. 

[Ginevra]

10 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Well, patriarchy is annoying to a lot of people. Those "rah rah" women are the reason you can get a credit card in your name now, or a bank account.

Perfectly stated…and the reason I could go to college, and the reason I have a “real” job, and the reason my supervisor and super-supervisor are female, and the reason I have my own investment portfolio, and the reason I can vote how I want, and the reason I can travel internationally with only my daughter, and the reason nobody at work orders me to wear something *they* want me to wear… RAH RAH RAH!!! Thank you, brave feminists! You did all the things! 

[Eos]

12 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Does everything have to be about patriarchy... Good grief. 

I know you've wrote that you question whether to be here on this board but I appreciate reading your posts and those of others' with whom I would never agree politically in real life.  We might not be friends but we can be colleagues and occasionally learn from one another. Exasperation keeps it real, hence my laughing emoji. 

[TexasProud]

55 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Perfectly stated…and the reason I could go to college, and the reason I have a “real” job, and the reason my supervisor and super-supervisor are female, and the reason I have my own investment portfolio, and the reason I can vote how I want, and the reason I can travel internationally with only my daughter, and the reason nobody at work orders me to wear something *they* want me to wear… RAH RAH RAH!!! Thank you, brave feminists! You did all the things! 

 

1 minute ago, Eos said:

I know you've wrote that you question whether to be here on this board but I appreciate reading your posts and those of others' with whom I would never agree politically in real life.  We might not be friends but we can be colleagues and occasionally learn from one another. Exasperation keeps it real, hence my laughing emoji. 

I hesitate to write because I know people will just respond, but guys...  when you grow up with someone who is constantly "Don't trust men, they are out to get you." "Don't you dare put your fate in the hands of a man." Everything at work was because a "man" was responsible. Umm.. maybe you are rude.

I do not want to be loud and in your face. So yes, it was annoying. Sometimes it is about personal responsibility.

Don't want to derail the thread, but I heard enough about the evil of men growing up.  I am sick of it.  Men can be nice. Men can be sweet.  

 

[HomeAgain]

8 hours ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

 Shaving seemed to cut down on the hormonal sweat stink. 

This is about the only reason I shave my pits, too.  It's a hygiene issue, not a patriarchal one.  Even dh keeps his trimmed for the same reason.

I haven't shaved my legs in about 10 years.  I found it to be more bother than it was worth.

 

For the rest of the ongoing conversations 😄

Christianity is patriarchal.  It is in the language and the concepts used to describe a deity and religious rules handed down in defense of that.  Even Jesus said, "I am He", referring to himself as God.  It is a patriarchal society that does a lot of damage to women .

I do believe that fashion, including undergarments, are greatly influenced by a patriarchal society and what is assumed would appeal to a partner.

I don't believe that the inherent function of the undergarments was a side effect of what men deem 'sexy'.  Bras have been found that are quite old, so old that a woman would not be using them as an enticement.  But just like everything else, form and function go hand in hand until we get things calling it out, like Jax's "Victoria's Secret", which she wrote for a tween(!!!) who was feeling awkward and ugly and wrong while her friends shopped for bathing suits.

And I believe that something that is appealing can be directly appealing to me, and make me feel put together, confident, and appeal to my sense of aesthetics. I shop for bras for me, and how I feel in it.

[Kassia]

3 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

In many states women can go topless anywhere that men can.

I didn't know this. Thanks.

[MEmama]

6 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

 

Those of you who don't wear bras (and don't have the kind of breasts where you can't really tell anyway): do you ever see other women your age who don't wear them? Is it just more socially neutral, or are you exceptionally resistant to social pressure?

I don't look 🤷‍♀️. Honestly, I don't pay much attention to other people when I'm out; that's probably why I'm always surprised at the amount of judgement over what other people do or wear (not you, just in general). 
 

I live in a super blue area. Most women from what I can tell don't wear much or any makeup, embracing the grey seems to be the norm, and it's really live and let live. I'm comfortable saying that bras, shaving etc are socially neutral here for sure.

[marbel]

4 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

Also women can legally breastfeed anywhere that they are legally (public and private) allowed to be in all fifty states.

Yes, this is true, but women are often made to feel uncomfortable when nursing in public. When my kids were little I nursed them when and where they needed it but I received nasty comments, was told to go to the restroom, etc. So yeah it may be legal but that doesn't help if the person at the next table in the restaurant is looking at you and making slurping noises. 

Maybe things have changed 1999. I hope so.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

Don't want to derail the thread, but I heard enough about the evil of men growing up.  I am sick of it.  Men can be nice. Men can be sweet.  

And nobody said anything to the contrary.

Patriarchy is a neutral term that describes a cultural situation. The term itself is not a value judgment nor does it say anything about individual men, or the character of men at all. In its strict sense, it is simply a term for a system in which the father or eldest male are the head of household and hence power is held primarily by men. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by regentrude

[TexasProud]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

And nobody said anything to the contrary.

Patriarchy is a neutral term that describes a cultural situation. The term itself is not a value judgment nor does it say anything about individual men, or the character of men at all. In its strict sense, it is simply a term for a system in which the father or eldest male are the head of household and hence power is held primarily by men. 

That is not what I hear when I hear that term.  Just FYI.  It feels like men blaming to me. And many, many people use it that way. 

[Melissa Louise]

God forbid one should blame a man...

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

 

I hesitate to write because I know people will just respond, but guys...  when you grow up with someone who is constantly "Don't trust men, they are out to get you." "Don't you dare put your fate in the hands of a man." Everything at work was because a "man" was responsible. Umm.. maybe you are rude.

I do not want to be loud and in your face. So yes, it was annoying. Sometimes it is about personal responsibility.

Don't want to derail the thread, but I heard enough about the evil of men growing up.  I am sick of it.  Men can be nice. Men can be sweet.  

 

Wow...okay "don't trust men they are out to get you" and "patriarchy needs to be pushed back against" are not the same thing in my mind, and I doubt many reading this would think they were the same either. 

I think this is very much a "we have different understandings of that term" situation. I love many men. I have sons. I don't think all men are mean or bad or evil, but we do live in a society that was designed by men for men and we are still working to make it more equal. That's all. 

[fairfarmhand]

12 hours ago, regentrude said:

Puritans?

Maybe more likely the 1950s. I’m sure the puritans were used to breastfeeding women because there was no baby formula.

 

[fairfarmhand]

I have noticed more women of all ages going out w/out a bra in the last few years. I wonder if Covid had something to do with that.

[MEmama]

31 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

That is not what I hear when I hear that term.  Just FYI.  It feels like men blaming to me. And many, many people use it that way. 

But now you've learned that what you thought isn't correct. And now you can teach many, many other people. 

[Carol in Cal.]

13 hours ago, Kassia said:

Quoting myself and apologizing for going way off topic, but it's ridiculous that not only can men go topless, but  women can't even breastfeed in public while men can walk around with their nipples exposed!  How did this happen?  

I always breastfed in public.  I was a bit discreet but did not use a cover.  Older women came up to me all the time to cheer me on, which I did not expect at all.  It was actually really nice.

[marbel]

23 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I always breastfed in public.  I was a bit discreet but did not use a cover.  Older women came up to me all the time to cheer me on, which I did not expect at all.  It was actually really nice.

I never used a cover either. I think a cover just brings more attention. There were times when people just thought I was holding my sleeping baby.  Now that I'm thinking more about it, I remember that when I was home on the west coast it was fine. It was when we were traveling in north FL and GA that strangers made comments. But even when we were with family, I was shoved off into a room alone so no one would be bothered by me feeding my kid. 🙄

ETA: I mean obviously if people feel more comfortable covering, or if the baby nurses better under a cover, they should do that. I just didn't like a cover for myself. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by marbel

[thatfirstsip]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I don't look 🤷‍♀️. Honestly, I don't pay much attention to other people when I'm out; that's probably why I'm always surprised at the amount of judgement over what other people do or wear (not you, just in general). 
 

I live in a super blue area. Most women from what I can tell don't wear much or any makeup, embracing the grey seems to be the norm, and it's really live and let live. I'm comfortable saying that bras, shaving etc are socially neutral here for sure.

If I didn't already know it's Maine, I'd say that sounds like paradise.

[vonfirmath]

6 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

am just now starting to get a few silver hairs but I intend to grey naturally. So my cost of upkeep is pretty minimal which leave more money for real books. 

This is having your priority straight, IMHO

[marbel]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I don't look 🤷‍♀️. Honestly, I don't pay much attention to other people when I'm out; that's probably why I'm always surprised at the amount of judgement over what other people do or wear (not you, just in general). 

Is it really judgement, though? I can see someone and note something about them/their appearance without judging them.  It's not like I care about what they wear (or don't wear), or their hair color, or whatever, but some things are just noticeable. 

[vonfirmath]

2 hours ago, marbel said:

Yes, this is true, but women are often made to feel uncomfortable when nursing in public. When my kids were little I nursed them when and where they needed it but I received nasty comments, was told to go to the restroom, etc. So yeah it may be legal but that doesn't help if the person at the next table in the restaurant is looking at you and making slurping noises. 

Maybe things have changed 1999. I hope so.

I was more likely to be defended when I tried to breastfeed in public -- I can't even recall a single time someone tried to stop me or shame me, etc. But I got some attaboys. And frankly those were just as offputting. I would have rather been ignored.

[Wheres Toto]

8 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

Those of you who don't wear bras (and don't have the kind of breasts where you can't really tell anyway): do you ever see other women your age who don't wear them? Is it just more socially neutral, or are you exceptionally resistant to social pressure?

I don't pay much attention so I'm not sure about women my age.  I do mostly see women of a variety of ages who are graying naturally, don't wear makeup, and seem to be dressing for comfort so a lack of bra wouldn't surprise me at all.   I think it's pretty common in the younger moms I see regularly.  

Dd doesn't ever get pressure about not wearing a bra or not shaving.  In her peer group, it is not an unusual thing at all.  In the tween to 20-ish girls I see frequently, shaving seems to be more the exception than the norm.

[Wheres Toto]

I never had a problem when breastfeeding in public, but I didn't have really big breasts even then so it wasn't hard to be somewhat discrete.  I never covered but used to wear button front shirts over tanks and I would unbutton from the bottom and pull down the tank from the top.  I nursed my son walking around a furniture store once and even dh didn't realize I was nursing.  

It's not at all unusual to see women breastfeeding around here and they don't seem to get bothered by anyone.  I'm pretty sure there are laws around here where businesses at least can't tell breastfeeding moms to move or cover up.  

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I live in a super blue area. Most women from what I can tell don't wear much or any makeup, embracing the grey seems to be the norm, and it's really live and let live. I'm comfortable saying that bras, shaving etc are socially neutral here for sure.

Same here in the PNW. I'd say bras and shaving are pretty optional, but the only time it would even be noticeable would be in the summer — the other 9 months of the year everyone is wearing flannels and hoodies so it wouldn't be noticeable anyway. Most women here dress the same as men: comfortable clothes, little to no makeup, simple hairstyles that don't require a lot of styling or maintenance, and hair that grays naturally (unless it's dyed green or purple, lol). The general vibe is more Patagonia and REI than Nordstrom and Sephora.

[TexasProud]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

But now you've learned that what you thought isn't correct. And now you can teach many, many other people. 

Excuse me, I can feel what I want to feel when I hear a word.  Who in the world would I teach????  That is just an inner thought when I hear the word. I don't discuss that word anywhere.  The only place I hear it is here or in the Barbie movie.  LOL. 

Now, I can recognize you and regenetude feel differently.  But don't try to change the way I feel about a word.  For me, the connotation is different.  

[MEmama]

53 minutes ago, marbel said:

Is it really judgement, though? I can see someone and note something about them/their appearance without judging them.  It's not like I care about what they wear (or don't wear), or their hair color, or whatever, but some things are just noticeable. 

Oh, no, not this topic per se. I meant in general, there is a lot of judgement about general behavior/clothes/etc and I'm coming to terms with the fact I'm pretty oblivious about it all, lol. Like, I'm in Target to get what I need, get out and go home; I don't spend much time looking at other people.

I definitely agree this thread is more about noticing and not judging.

[MEmama]

28 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Excuse me, I can feel what I want to feel when I hear a word.  Who in the world would I teach????  That is just an inner thought when I hear the word. I don't discuss that word anywhere.  The only place I hear it is here or in the Barbie movie.  LOL. 

Now, I can recognize you and regenetude feel differently.  But don't try to change the way I feel about a word.  For me, the connotation is different.  

Of course you can feel however you want, about any subject. No one has said or insinuated otherwise. But feelings aren't facts and they shouldn't be treated as though they hold the same weight. There is no "believe" or "don't believe" in patriarchal systems. One might not like it, one might be offended to learn about it, one might intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand the definition, but facts don't much care much about any of that. On an education board, I expect we are all here to learn and further expand our knowledge, whether or not we have always understood things in the same way. Here on the chat board we also share lots of opinions--and while we can and do and should learn from those too, they shouldn't be confused.

I do not like living in a system that systematically oppresses women, but it is a fact that I do. Many people didn't believe Covid vaccines work, but the fact is they do. I do not agree with your religion but I accept that many people make the choice to believe in it (in fact, it was here that I learned that it IS a choice, which blew my mind having lived 50 years assuming faith is as engrained in some people as my lack thereof is for me).

It is no one's place to tell anyone their opinions are wrong, but if they aren't based on anything other than "a feeling" and the person clings to them against all the facts, one can't expect those feelings to be taken very seriously.
 

Absolutely, feel free to feel however you want. But at least you'll know now what the word actually means.

[SKL]

10 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

Those of you who don't wear bras (and don't have the kind of breasts where you can't really tell anyway): do you ever see other women your age who don't wear them? Is it just more socially neutral, or are you exceptionally resistant to social pressure?

I don't notice whether another person is wearing a bra, unless they are extremely well endowed.

[4kidlets4me]

I never wear a bra at home. When I go out I only wear one when exercising or in the summer when going without would be too noticeable.

I only shave in the summer and I only wear makeup occasionally. 

[TexasProud]

8 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Of course you can feel however you want, about any subject. No one has said or insinuated otherwise. But feelings aren't facts and they shouldn't be treated as though they hold the same weight. There is no "believe" or "don't believe" in patriarchal systems. One might not like it, one might be offended to learn about it, one might intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand the definition, but facts don't much care much about any of that. On an education board, I expect we are all here to learn and further expand our knowledge, whether or not we have always understood things in the same way. Here on the chat board we also share lots of opinions--and while we can and do and should learn from those too, they shouldn't be confused.

I do not like living in a system that systematically oppresses women, but it is a fact that I do. Many people didn't believe Covid vaccines work, but the fact is they do. I do not agree with your religion but I accept that many people make the choice to believe in it (in fact, it was here that I learned that it IS a choice, which blew my mind having lived 50 years assuming faith is as engrained in some people as my lack thereof is for me).

It is no one's place to tell anyone their opinions are wrong, but if they aren't based on anything other than "a feeling" and the person clings to them against all the facts, one can't expect those feelings to be taken very seriously.
 

Absolutely, feel free to feel however you want. But at least you'll know now what the word actually means.

But there is a difference between the actual definition of the word and the emotions it evokes.  The emotion it evokes it true for me.  And yeah, I knew that definition before we ever started this conversation.  I am not stupid. Don't treat me like I am 3. 

[SKL]

People who say they wear a bra because "patriarchy."

You don't have to.

To me, it makes no sense to blame someone else or some "archy" for a decision you freely make.

And if you are making a decision because you think that decision will please "patriarchy," maybe it is you who are furthering that "archy."

I have never once heard a man comment on whether or not he thinks women should wear bras.

[MEmama]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But there is a difference between the actual definition of the word and the emotions it evokes.  The emotion it evokes it true for me.  And yeah, I knew that definition before we ever started this conversation.  I am not stupid. Don't treat me like I am 3. 

I don't understand your argument. You said: It feels like men blaming to me. My only point is that in fact, that's not what it means at all. Nothing more. 🤷‍♀️

[SKL]

Just now, MEmama said:

I don't understand your argument. You said: It feels like men blaming to me. My only point is that in fact, that's not what it means at all. Nothing more. 🤷‍♀️

I am confused.  What exactly does it mean when someone says "patriarchy" is the reason they wear a bra?

[SKL]

The fact that clothing is styled based on the human form (which happens to be different depending on what sex you are) doesn't seem wrong to me.

I have always loved the way Indian traditional clothes accentuate the beauty of the female figure.  I love it when western options lean that way.  If that bothers some people, IMO that's their problem.

Edited August 31, 2023 by SKL

[ArteHaus]

5 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Christianity is patriarchal.  It is in the language and the concepts used to describe a deity and religious rules handed down in defense of that.  Even Jesus said, "I am He", referring to himself as God.  It is a patriarchal society that does a lot of damage to women .

Christianity, per se, is not in the slightest patriarchal. As a Graeco-Roman religion, there are many “gods” that have popped up in Christianity (some are male, like Mithra), due to its pagan origin. For example, the Blessed Virgin is often conflated with Isis and Horus, and both of these are deities most often displayed as an idol, that believers worship, within Christianity. Another example is the celebration of Easter (Ishtar).

Christianity, essentially, is a Graeco-Roman perversion of the Scripture, the Hebrew culture/belief system. The Roman Empire conjoined the two (ie Torah joined to paganism) for political purposes, because the spreading of Torah via Yahusha/Jesus fragmented the beliefs of the people, and Rome was losing “control”. So, voila! They mixed the two into their own image, if you will. 

Even Christianity that “separates” itself through adherence to Protestantism, is still very feminist and deifies the woman (amongst other delineations from Scripture). For example, it negates the Scripture by perpetuating the idea that multiple wives are a sin, or somehow not biblical. The Christian version is that to have multiples wives (not multiple women that a man sleeps with and is not married to), is adultery. Meanwhile, that ain’t what the Scripture says. I use that as an example to show clearly how Christianity and Scripture are opposed, and that one is patriarchal, one is not. 

The Scripture is patriarchal. Absolutely! I think that most women (and mayhap men) who are in Western society have a Western view of patriarchy (has little to do with Hebrew culture/thought), when the Scriptural/Hebrew/Near Eastern view is much sweeter to women. Women were to be cared for, cradle to grave. Western feminism and Western patriarchy are very cruel to women. Single motherhood, for example, is a cruelty, and a by product of feminism and Western patriarchy, not the Scripture. It is actually Western thought that damages women, not Scripture, which requires provision and love for women.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by ArteHaus

[ArteHaus]

10 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

 

In separate news: yikes, man. Since when is the shape or confinement of my breasts a respect issue? 

It is a respect issue. Women are supposed to have sisterhood, and this isn’t that.

I once wore a see through shirt without a bra when I was 19. I thought I was a hippy and free and all that bs. I am sure a made a man connected to a woman turn his head that day. I regret that, sorely. It feels shameful now-

Another time a few years ago, I wore skinny jeans to a store. I was putting bags into my car and a man walking with his wife/gf, nearly broke his neck to look at me. My husband saw this and was cross with me, and I deserved it. I still cringe over that, and I really had to consider what I was doing/wearing.

Modesty is beautiful and it shows other women (and men) respect. I have learned this through the years, and count it as wisdom gained. 

[thatfirstsip]

1 minute ago, ArteHaus said:

It is a respect issue. Women are supposed to have sisterhood, and this isn’t that.

I once wore a see through shirt without a bra when I was 19. I thought I was a hippy and free and all that bs. I am sure a made a man connected to a woman turn his head that day. I regret that, sorely. It feels shameful now-

Another time a few years ago, I wore skinny jeans to a store. I was putting bags into my car and a man walking with his wife/gf, nearly broke his neck to look at me. My husband saw this and was cross with me, and I deserved it. I still cringe over that, and I really had to consider what I was doing/wearing.

Modesty is beautiful and it shows other women (and men) respect. I have learned this through the years, and count it as wisdom gained. 

lol, well we agree on the mechanism, just not whether the mechanism is something we find conducive to human freedom or morality (such as it is)

to have almost caused someone's *death* via skinny jeans! lol I cannot even

[ArteHaus]

11 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

lol, well we agree on the mechanism, just not whether the mechanism is something we find conducive to human freedom or morality (such as it is)

to have almost caused someone's *death* via skinny jeans! lol I cannot even

Yes, yes, funny idiom, heehee haha. Nonetheless, what is happening spiritually is really dark, and not something I will engage in anymore. 

So, the live and let live perspective is now obtuse to me. I don’t think women understand fully what they are doing.