Race-related comment; what would your response be?

[MercyA]

My friend was in a waiting room with three other family members. They were talking about basketball. While discussing a particular college player, one family member asked my friend, "Did he go on to the NBA?" My friend replied something like, "No, he was a good shooter, but not tall enough or fast enough." Another family member muttered, "Or dark enough..." It was said in a negative tone. 

Further background: the family is almost entirely white, but one of the family members present has a black child.

What would you think if you heard this comment?

What would you say, if anything?

Edited August 13, 2023 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, MercyA said:

My friend was in a waiting room with three other family members. They was talking about basketball. While discussing a particular college player, one family member asked my friend, "Did he go on to the NBA?" My friend replied something like, "No, he was a good shooter, but not tall enough or fast enough." Another family member muttered, "Or dark enough..." It was said in a negative tone. 

Further background: the family is almost entirely white, but one of the family members present has a black child.

What would you think if you heard this comment?

What would you say, if anything?

 

I would think someone was ignorant. I would say nothing at all unless I was prepared to limit that family member’s presence in my life. An option, for those who are willing and able to let folks explain (or not) their biases is: “what do you mean by that?” 

[Kassia]

I don't know what I'd do.  I like @Sneezyone's suggested question "what do you mean by that?" if I were prepared to take that on.  I definitely don't like what the family member was implying.  

[catz]

Ugh, what a stupid statement.  I'm not sure I'd say anything just because I'm often shocked into silence with unexpected stuff like that.  

If these were people I knew well and I happened to be on my toes at that moment, I might say "What do you mean by that?".  That would be likely to have them back tracking and dancing in circles.  

[marbel]

I would have a bad impression of the person, either that they were outright racist or just ignorant/stupid. It would depend on the relationship and the setting. I might not want to get into anything in a public place if the person was likely to take their comments further. I might say, as a pp said "what do you mean by that?" I might give a snort of derision and an eyeroll or a glare at them. Or I might just change the subject. 

[Tiberia]

Since it was muttered, I'd ask, "I'm sorry, what did you say? I didn't hear that." And look at them and wait. In awkward silence.

It would make them either own the statement or deny it/minimize it. If they repeat what they muttered, I'd then ask "What do you mean by that?" If they deny it, I'd say, "Oh good, I thought you said something racist."

If they were open to dialog or try to argue, I'd maybe mention that statements like that can be hurtful to (insert black family member/family) and say " It's uncharacteristic of you to make racist statements like that. Are you ok?" 

In reality, I'd probably be shocked and not say anything. But it always helps to prepare in case there's another situation.

[SKL]

What I'd say would depend on who said it.  Most likely, unless it was someone much older than me, I would say something briefly, like "excuse you," "that sounds ignorant," "that sounds racist."  I might use my eyes to remind the person that there's someone in the group who will be even more offended if they don't shut the heck up.  I might follow up with more when alone with the speaker.

[marbel]

I just had another thought. Is there a possibility that the person believed that the player was good enough for the NBA but was rejected for other reasons? I mean, I don't know how the NBA works, I know absolutely zero about basketball and how people are recruited, etc. And please nobody jump on me for assuming anything, but... maybe this person just feels it was unfair for that reason? Whether it was actually unfair or not, that is their honest perception? I'm trying to word this very carefully because I don't want to be offensive and hope I am not. I still think it was a dumb thing to say. I just wonder if the person had reason (if only in their own head) for being upset/bitter about it?

Edited August 13, 2023 by marbel

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, marbel said:

I just had another thought. Is there a possibility that the person believed that the player was good enough for the NBA but was rejected for other reasons? I mean, I don't know how the NBA works, I know absolutely zero about basketball and how people are recruited, etc. And please nobody jump on me for assuming anything, but... maybe this person just feels it was unfair for that reason? Whether it was actually unfair or not, that is their honest perception? I'm trying to word this very carefully because I don't want to be offensive and hope I am not. I still think it was a dumb thing to say. I just wonder if the person had reason (if only in their own head) for being upset/bitter about it?

Personally, I think that qualifies as ignorant.

Would the person say this in front of a black person?

[Katy]

I generally find that if I ignore statements like that the comments continue and get worse so I tend to say something. What depends on the person and my relationship with them.

[Carrie12345]

A family member? “Wow, why don’t you tell us how you really feel?”

[shawthorne44]

"Wow.  Did you mean to say that out loud?'    

I think something needs to be said, but something that doesn't require a response.   A response will make them get defensive and double-down on their comment.  

[mommyoffive]

58 minutes ago, Katy said:

I generally find that if I ignore statements like that the comments continue and get worse so I tend to say something. What depends on the person and my relationship with them.

Yes, this.  I agree with @catz that sometimes I am just so surprised that my thoughts come to me later at home.  But I agree with @Katy in my experience once someone starts saying something like that and nobody says anything they just keep going.  In that conversation or further meetings because they think you accept it.  But my rope is short with racist things because I have been the target it of it over my lifetime as a person of color.

[Ali in OR]

I think of this in terms of being around high schoolers all the time and in a school where we are trying to address equity issues. We've had students of color present sessions to staff about microaggressions (not that this is micro), and that it is wearying for them to always be the ones to speak up. They need others to do it, and I hope that I would be brave enough to speak up. I think the "what do you mean by that?" comment is one that our students also have suggested as something you can say. If more people would say something instead of standing in awkward silence, maybe more people would get the idea that this is not acceptable. But in a high school setting, also recognizing that students are learning and growing and to help them to do that without jumping all over them.

[Renai]

1 hour ago, marbel said:

I just had another thought. Is there a possibility that the person believed that the player was good enough for the NBA but was rejected for other reasons? I mean, I don't know how the NBA works, I know absolutely zero about basketball and how people are recruited, etc. And please nobody jump on me for assuming anything, but... maybe this person just feels it was unfair for that reason? Whether it was actually unfair or not, that is their honest perception? I'm trying to word this very carefully because I don't want to be offensive and hope I am not. I still think it was a dumb thing to say. I just wonder if the person had reason (if only in their own head) for being upset/bitter about it?

This was my first thought. I could imagine a black person saying it, implying that more dark-skinned players are recruited than light-skinned players. I don't really know because I don't follow basketball. I would pry, because I'd honestly want to know if that were true. I don't know what it would be like for a white family to delve into that subject, and whether it would be considered racist. I have a lot of white friends with adopted or mixed race black children and these are discussions I can see us having, without us seeing it as racist.

[J-rap]

That was in really poor taste.  I'd maybe say, "What do you mean?"  

[Shoeless]

I would say "What do you mean by that?" 

I expect they meant something nasty, but I'd go with this on the off chance they meant something non toxic but expressed themselves in a stupid way. 

[easypeasy]

What would I think? I would think the person was lazily ignorant of Real Life and needed some educating.

What would I do/say? Well, I have replied to this exact same scenario.

I said to the person, "Well, he's darker than Larry Bird (bc who isn't? the man practically glows in the dark), so there are obviously other issues at hand. And, you do know they don't use race while recruiting for the NBA, right? They recruit the guy who can score the most points, or block the most points, the guy with the can-win attitude - there are no bonus points for skin color in either direction."

Honestly, I am no longer quiet or quietly surprised when people mumble this nonsense under their breath. I say something, now. Every. Single. Time. To anyone - friend, foe, family, stranger at the table next to me who is speaking loudly, whoever. I don't let it go unchecked and unanswered anymore. It does too much damage to very real people.

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, Shoeless said:

I would say "What do you mean by that?" 

I expect they meant something nasty, but I'd go with this on the off chance they meant something non toxic but expressed themselves in a stupid way. 

I think it’s fine to recognize that some people (and I am some people) say innocent things in stupid ways. This forum is a historic document of my foibles, lol.     
That said, I’m very curious as to what other possibilities there are when someone says “he wasn’t dark enough.” I can’t seem to come up with a single alternative, even in my wildly imaginative devil’s advocate and awkward mind. Unless the NBA suddenly went emo, and I missed it.
 

[Shoeless]

6 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I think it’s fine to recognize that some people (and I am some people) say innocent things in stupid ways. This forum is a historic document of my foibles, lol.     
That said, I’m very curious as to what other possibilities there are when someone says “he wasn’t dark enough.” I can’t seem to come up with a single alternative, even in my wildly imaginative devil’s advocate and awkward mind. Unless the NBA suddenly went emo, and I missed it.
 

I can't think of any, to be honest.

I'm mostly thinking of an elderly relative of mine that has a history of blurting out ridiculous, thoughtless things and getting defensive when called on it. If approached carefully, they will say "Oh, I didn't mean it like that.  What I meant was...", and then something nicer comes out of their mouth. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Shoeless

[Ginevra]

8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Yes, this.  I agree with @catz that sometimes I am just so surprised that my thoughts come to me later at home.  But I agree with @Katy in my experience once someone starts saying something like that and nobody says anything they just keep going.  In that conversation or further meetings because they think you accept it.  But my rope is short with racist things because I have been the target it of it over my lifetime as a person of color.

Yes. That is my experience as well. My previous boss made a racist comment within the first week I worked there. It was to the effect of, “my black clients always require XYZ (demeaning implication).” At that moment I said nothing but chucked something in the trash can and left the room. Boss back-pedaled by bringing it back up with me a few minutes later and “explaining” what his stupid remark “really” meant. In hindsight, I 100% think he was feeling me out to see what kind of race-bashing I would go along with. When he found out the answer was none, he (literally) labeled me a “liberal” and spoke from that lens. 

[Pam in CT]

I don't generally embrace full-on confrontational "calling out" because I don't see much evidence that it's especially effective as a tactic.

But at the same time I do think it's important to find a way to mark comments like that.  Complete inaction is indistinguishable from indifference, and indifference is a form of complicity.

  So for me, it's a matter of picking out a response that either invites another round, or simply notes what just happened without giving the person additional fuel (defensiveness, JK!!!, whatabout, DARVO, etc).  Examples:

Invites another round:

13 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

...An option, for those who are willing and able to let folks explain (or not) their biases is: “what do you mean by that?” 

 

13 hours ago, Tiberia said:

Since it was muttered, I'd ask, "I'm sorry, what did you say? I didn't hear that." And look at them and wait. In awkward silence...

 

11 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

"Wow.  Did you mean to say that out loud?' ...  

 

8 hours ago, J-rap said:

...I'd maybe say, "What do you mean?"  

 

Expresses disapprobation without giving much fuel for the person to turn around and DARVO on:

"Huh."

"Wow."

"Gracious."

[I understand, though may be applying it wrong lol...]  "My goodness, bless your heart."

 

 

__________

re sincerely held beliefs versus racist beliefs

12 hours ago, marbel said:

I just had another thought. Is there a possibility that the person believed that the player was good enough for the NBA but was rejected for other reasons? I mean, I don't know how the NBA works, I know absolutely zero about basketball and how people are recruited, etc. And please nobody jump on me for assuming anything, but... maybe this person just feels it was unfair for that reason? Whether it was actually unfair or not, that is their honest perception? I'm trying to word this very carefully because I don't want to be offensive and hope I am not. I still think it was a dumb thing to say. I just wonder if the person had reason (if only in their own head) for being upset/bitter about it?

Perhaps so, but not at all sure it makes any difference. This amounts to the same argument that disappointed Harvard applicants make -- my grades and scores were "good enough," I was rejected, ergo it is THAT PARTICULAR PERSON, the one with the DARK SKIN, who STOLE the spot that was "rightfully" MINE.

It is an argument that only holds any logic at all if there are exactly two, and only two, applicants for one particular spot.   If there are any more than exactly two applicants, it is absurd to claim that "otherwise it would have gone to me."

There are many more applicants to Harvard than there are spaces; nearly all of them are qualified to do the work. There are many more athletes capable of playing professional basketball than there are spots.  These positions are competitive.   Many, many more human beings, all colors, all heights, all geographic and family backgrounds, are turned away than get the spots.

And when a person who is disappointed that they weren't fortunate enough to grasp the golden ring uses racial language to express that disappointment, it.is.racist.  By definition it is racist -- it is reaching for a race-framed justification to explain why they didn't get what they think they "deserved," because... well, reasons.  

That the belief genuinely may be "sincerely held" does not make the belief not-racist.  Plenty of racist beliefs ARE sincerely held; that's generally how racism (and other isms) functions.

 

But that's a long slow slog conversation, more likely to evoke defensiveness than to land with most people most of the time.  And it's not worth trying to have it unless there is any evidence that the person is able to have it and hold it.

It is, however, IMO important to find a way to MARK such comments. For the sake of others, if not for the speaker.

[EKS]

8 hours ago, easypeasy said:

And, you do know they don't use race while recruiting for the NBA, right?

But how do you know this? Blacks are overrepresented by something like sixfold in the NBA.  Why is it when it goes this way, when there is no other information present, there is no reason to think that race was a factor, whereas in other instances there is?

(For the record, I think that the demographics of the NBA are just fine they way they are--that is, I think that they are choosing from a talent pool that has similar demographics.  I also think that the guy who made the comment was being, at best, crass.)

ETA: There is also an argument going the other way which is that the white NBA owners are no better than plantation owners in their exploitation of black bodies.  So in this view, the overrepresentation of blacks would be due to favoring blacks for a more sinister reason.

Edited August 13, 2023 by EKS

[Halftime Hope]

I've had a couple of similar situations where I didn't know what to say in the moment, thought about it, brought it up later one-on-one with the person, and it went reasonably well. IOW, they may or may not change their underlying attitude, but they now knew that such comments were being tracked and were not going to be tolerated without pushback.

 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

 

[I understand, though may be applying it wrong lol...]  "My goodness, bless your heart."

 

Total aside, but you’re not using “bless your heart” right. Think of it like “Oh, honey” which could mean “you’re well intentioned but naive here” or something very harsh like “that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard someone say.”  

“Bless your heart” is generally only the beginning of a highly sophisticated passive-aggressive put down. It’s not stand alone. It dresses down someone while simultaneously warning you’re about to tell them off, but only in a genuinely well-intentioned Christian, they’ll be improved if they learn their lesson way.  It’s both polite and socially acceptable in a way other insults aren’t. 

[Katy]

One of my kids follows a guy on Instagram, Don’t Cross a Gay man. He’s made a career out of hilarious and funny ways to confront crappy comments like this. He generally starts with “Ewwwwwww!” And then goes on to insult the person in extremely colorful language. NSFW, NSF littles. But I agree he’s hilarious. We spent hours together one night at the beginning of summer watching his old videos. 

[Pam in CT]

tangent re spectrum of usage of "bless your heart"

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Total aside, but you’re not using “bless your heart” right. Think of it like “Oh, honey” which could mean “you’re well intentioned but naive here” or something very harsh like “that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard someone say.”  

“Bless your heart” is generally only the beginning of a highly sophisticated passive-aggressive put down. It’s not stand alone. It dresses down someone while simultaneously warning you’re about to tell them off, but only in a genuinely well-intentioned Christian, they’ll be improved if they learn their lesson way.  It’s both polite and socially acceptable in a way other insults aren’t. 

( I'm definitely interested in how "highly sophisticated passive-aggressive" aligns with "genuinely well-intentioned Christian" )

but for the purposes of this thread, is the phrase really always/ usually a prelude to a fuller longer telling-off?  I feel like I hear it standalone fairly frequently, particularly when the context and body language surroundsound is closer to "stupidest thing I've ever heard" than "well intentioned but naive."  (Though perhaps a lot of us are doing it wrong around here.)

Either way, it does sound like a superpower that could very well be deployed in the OP circumstance.

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

One of my kids follows a guy on Instagram, Don’t Cross a Gay man. He’s made a career out of hilarious and funny ways to confront crappy comments like this. He generally starts with “Ewwwwwww!” And then goes on to insult the person in extremely colorful language. NSFW, NSF littles. But I agree he’s hilarious. We spent hours together one night at the beginning of summer watching his old videos. 

I love this guy!  He appeals to the side of me that would love to have the nerve and cleverness to be able to respond instead of just stand there uncomfortably gobsmacked.

 

[Katy]

56 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

tangent re spectrum of usage of "bless your heart"

( I'm definitely interested in how "highly sophisticated passive-aggressive" aligns with "genuinely well-intentioned Christian" )

but for the purposes of this thread, is the phrase really always/ usually a prelude to a fuller longer telling-off?  I feel like I hear it standalone fairly frequently, particularly when the context and body language surroundsound is closer to "stupidest thing I've ever heard" than "well intentioned but naive."  (Though perhaps a lot of us are doing it wrong around here.)

Either way, it does sound like a superpower that could very well be deployed in the OP circumstance.

 

I’ve personally only heard it as a standalone from non-Southern people who are clearly misusing it.  Every single time it’s been a Southern lady they are dressing down someone’s lack of knowledge or character in an effort to correct them. If the recipient listens and adjusts everyone is the better for it. Speaker laid out a boundary and recipient improved themselves.

If speaker was being awful and rude instead of helpful (which is the way non-Southerners tend to think it’s used) it’s generally called “being ugly” and isn’t socially acceptable at all unless all hearers are also bothered by whoever they’re gossiping/complaining about. 
 

ETA: my dad’s family is very Southern/rural NC Florida and my mom’s is very Midwestern.  Growing up I often felt like an outsider in my own hometown and like I was a little out of the loop because my mama was “a yankee.” I’ve never mastered the art of handing out a bless your heart but I’ve certainly received a few. And witnessed hundreds. I’ve never once thought it was unkind or unChristian, even when it stung to be corrected. 
 

ETA2: The social rules are complex and nuanced. I have not mastered them. I remember reading a story when I was a kid about how Princess Margaret visited Ole Miss and offended a bunch of sorority girls because her manners weren’t up to snuff. Which just goes to show how complicated it is. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Katy

[easypeasy]

4 hours ago, EKS said:

But how do you know this? Blacks are overrepresented by something like sixfold in the NBA.  Why is it when it goes this way, when there is no other information present, there is no reason to think that race was a factor, whereas in other instances there is?

(For the record, I think that the demographics of the NBA are just fine they way they are--that is, I think that they are choosing from a talent pool that has similar demographics.  I also think that the guy who made the comment was being, at best, crass.)

ETA: There is also an argument going the other way which is that the white NBA owners are no better than plantation owners in their exploitation of black bodies.  So in this view, the overrepresentation of blacks would be due to favoring blacks for a more sinister reason.

How do I know this? Because NO SPORT - NO WHITE OWNER OF A TEAM in the 70s, 80s, 90s would have purposefully chosen Black players to be the faces of their team over white ones if they weren’t more talented  individually - period. 

Why would the NBA be the sole standalone mega-industry that selected Black people over white ones in a country where - literally - that has never happened? White people have always been the default and the NBA would be no different if the talent had been equal. 

Why are Black players represented sixfold? Because you don’t need a Country Club membership (golf, tennis (historically)) to start playing basketball. You don’t need a big parcel of land (baseball, soccer).  You don’t need expensive equipment (climbing, equestrian sports). You don’t need consistency in teammates (rowing). You don’t need a big gym and a coach (historically, gymnastics, fencing).

BB can be played on the street with a hoop nailed to a wall somewhere. BB can be played with whoever shows up that day. BB can be played without a coach. BB can be practiced alone - perfecting dribbling and free throw shooting skills. BB can be started young - little kids being taught by their elder brothers.

Ask most of the Black players (and a lot of the white ones, too) where they got their start and it was on the street, in their neighborhoods. BB is one of the only sports with that answer. 

Then, the kids enter school. While most schools have a lot of specialized sports to choose from, many predominately Black schools have two: football and basketball. So, white students, as a whole, have more sports choices from a young age, spreading that demographic around through many sports whereas inner-city Black youths are narrowly funneled in two directions. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by easypeasy

[EKS]

9 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

How do I know this?

I asked how you know it when there is no other information present.  The answer is that you don't. 

That said, I'm sure that everything you said above is true.  In fact, I said as much in my previous post--that the players are being chosen from a talent pool with similar demographics.

[easypeasy]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I asked how you know it when there is no other information present.  The answer is that you don't. 

That said, I'm sure that everything you said above is true.  In fact, I said as much in my previous post--that the players are being chosen from a talent pool with similar demographics.

How do we know anything with no other information present? I’m confused why this would even be asked in this particular context? There is information present and one doesn’t have to reach far to find it…

[EKS]

Just now, easypeasy said:

How do we know anything with no other information present?

You don't.  But people like to assume things all the time.  That was my point.

[SHP]

On 8/12/2023 at 6:36 PM, Kassia said:

I don't know what I'd do.  I like @Sneezyone's suggested question "what do you mean by that?" if I were prepared to take that on.  I definitely don't like what the family member was implying.  

I have found "what do you mean by that?" To result in people back pedaling and STFU 

I have family members who are very good at interrupting THAT PERSON. Which is usually nice because kids are around and it may or may not be a positive childhood experience for a child to watch their parent get raked over the coals.

 

[katilac]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:21 PM, marbel said:

I just had another thought. Is there a possibility that the person believed that the player was good enough for the NBA but was rejected for other reasons? I mean, I don't know how the NBA works, I know absolutely zero about basketball and how people are recruited, etc. And please nobody jump on me for assuming anything, but... maybe this person just feels it was unfair for that reason? Whether it was actually unfair or not, that is their honest perception? I'm trying to word this very carefully because I don't want to be offensive and hope I am not. I still think it was a dumb thing to say. I just wonder if the person had reason (if only in their own head) for being upset/bitter about it?

The NBA works by recruiting what they think are the very best players for their team, so that they can win a lot of games, and thus make an obscene amount of money.  See also: NFL, MLB, NHL. 

These leagues take four of the five spots for top five sports leagues by revenue in the world. 

So, no, there are no diversity hires in the NBA. I mean, if there were diversity hires, it would be white people, lol, so it's a silly complaint. 

On 8/13/2023 at 12:08 PM, Pam in CT said:

 but for the purposes of this thread, is the phrase really always/ usually a prelude to a fuller longer telling-off?   

I live in the deep south, and I never heard it used this way till I was well grown. 

If someone said their kid cried for half an hour before falling asleep for their nap, it would be: Aww, bless his heart, he just didn't want to miss out on anything! 

If a really nice server known for making mistakes messed up your order yet again, it would be: Bless her heart, she sure does try, I'm just going to eat the ham sandwich instead of the turkey. 

If someone paid you a great compliment: Bless your heart, that is so nice to hear! 

Apparently other southern regions used it in the other way, and it made its way to tv and became a trope, and now I can't convince anyone it's not always used that way, lol

On 8/13/2023 at 1:50 PM, EKS said:

I asked how you know it when there is no other information present.   

 

The critically important information present is that the NBA is a money-making machine. The fact that unimaginable amounts of money rest on recruiting the very best players for the team is enough to convince me that they recruit the very best players for the team.

I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they're recruiting from a similar demographic pool, in the sense that basketball courts are in nearly every town, no matter how white, and basketball teams are present at nearly every high school, no matter how white. 

Golf is recruiting from largely one demographic; whereasI think basketball is recruiting from a much more mixed demographic, and is of course much more accessible to all demographics. 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by katilac
clarity

[Pam in CT]

re lopsided demographics of basketball's vs other sports' recruitment

16 hours ago, katilac said:

The NBA works by recruiting what they think are the very best players for their team, so that they can win a lot of games, and thus make an obscene amount of money.  See also: NFL, MLB, NHL. 

These leagues take four of the five spots for top five sports leagues by revenue in the world. 

So, no, there are no diversity hires in the NBA. I mean, if there were diversity hires, it would be white people, lol, so it's a silly complaint. 

...The critically important information present is that the NBA is a money-making machine. The fact that unimaginable amounts of money rest on recruiting the very best players for the team is enough to convince me that they recruit the very best players for the team.

I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they're recruiting from a similar demographic pool, in the sense that basketball courts are in nearly every town, no matter how white, and basketball teams are present at nearly every high school, no matter how white. 

Golf is recruiting from largely one demographic; whereasI think basketball is recruiting from a much more mixed demographic, and is of course much more accessible to all demographics. 

 

The bolded is an extremely essential point.

The barriers to entry to basketball are extremely low. Every neighborhood in every city in America has courts; all you need is a ball to play.  Virtually all schools - public, private, charter, parochial - field some kind of team; and in any Northern city at least (dunno how the sport is organized in other regions) if a kid shows any kind of promise, there are citywide leagues that they can enter into, again and nominal or subsidized fees, from middle school on. A talented kid who works hard can a) see the game modeled right in the neighborhood; and b) find a way to play without incurring crazy-huge expenses.

The barriers -- lack of exposure, lack of facilities to play, access to entry level teams, league expenses, coaching, etc -- for any number of other sports (golf, hockey, tennis, skiing, lacrosse, even football) are very different.

A lot of terrific "natural" athletes are capable of playing any  number of sports, and when they're little kids in areas like mine they play different sports throughout the year before they self-sort into their "lead" sport around ~middle school~.  Some sports (hockey) require HUGE time and commitment and money from PARENTS; others (golf, tennis) require substantial financial investment in private coaching.  Lacrosse and hockey league fees are HIGH; or kids go into the boarding school circuit.

Basketball is a sport that a driven kid can meaningfully pursue without access to those kinds of financial and logistical supports.

There are racial patterns to which kids are more likely to have access to those kinds of financial and logistical supports; see: CRTTTEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeee!!!

Which means that the demographics of the (high barrier to entry) golf and hockey recruitment pool ends up looking a whole lot WHITER than the overall US population; and the demographics of (low barrier to entry) basketball pool looks a whole lot blacker.

 

And from there, to katilac's point, the idea is to MAKE MONEY not  diversity hires.

[Ting Tang]

A lot of youth sports have become elite, and unfortunately, some of the minority participants are very disproportionate to true racial demographics.  I took my daughter to a competition hosted and run by a predominantly Black group, and a team mom said, "you mean the one with all the African-American kids?"  I responded with a big smile and said, "Yep!"    And it ended up being a great one with the most adorable trophies, and we will be back.

That same team mom is just one I do not like, so I figure her mouth is taking care of itself the more stupid things she says because Lord knows she has made some stupid comments in general.  

[shawthorne44]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:54 PM, Katy said:

ETA2: The social rules are complex and nuanced. I have not mastered them. I remember reading a story when I was a kid about how Princess Margaret visited Ole Miss and offended a bunch of sorority girls because her manners weren’t up to snuff. Which just goes to show how complicated it is. 

 

I am NOT comparing any sorority to a prison.   
I remember reading Miss Manners pointing out that there are etiquette rules in prison, and that violating them could have dire health consequences.   They are different etiquette rules depending on the situation.   I suspect that the Ole Miss rules are closer to English royalty than prison, but still some differences.  What we think of as 'etiquette' is just people aping what the upper-class is thought to do.  

 

 

[Katy]

3 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I am NOT comparing any sorority to a prison.   
I remember reading Miss Manners pointing out that there are etiquette rules in prison, and that violating them could have dire health consequences.   They are different etiquette rules depending on the situation.   I suspect that the Ole Miss rules are closer to English royalty than prison, but still some differences.  What we think of as 'etiquette' is just people aping what the upper-class is thought to do.  

 

 

I think of etiquette as being considerate of others and treating them the way they'd like to be treated.  I think the Ole Miss kerfuffle had something to do with the type of glove worn at the wrong time of day and occasion. I'm guessing English royalty had either dropped the antiquated rule or never had that particular variation of it. And I'm certain the climate of Mississippi is vastly different than that of London, which probably influenced the rules.

I think that etiquette is one thing people in former confederate states have clung to because a family might have lost its money or status or but no matter what happened to your ancestors you can act like a lady, "If your mama raised you right." And frankly I think something similar happens in most parts of the world that have had revolutions in the past 300 years that lead to social and monetary upheaval. I've heard similar things about the focus on manners from friends from France and Iran.  Though honestly I haven't taken the time to sit through all the ramifications that might have since I discovered everything I was taught as a child about the reasons for the civil war were a lie. Nothing like reading the confederate declaration and other papers to discover it was only about slavery.