House sizes (first world)

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I love small. I have lived in 200 sq ft hut with a baby, 300sq ft apartment with a baby and a dh working from home, and 650sq ft apartment with 2 teens and me having a home office. The key is to have rooms with multiple purposes and to be willing to move furniture around when needed. You need to learn to close doors if you want privacy, and everyone is trained to knock. You also must be willing to compromise, so when someone needs the main room, you might be using your room as a lounge that day. Lastly, when there is one bathroom, it does help if some people shower at night or if sleep schedules are slightly shifted. 

Maybe this is why our one bathroom doesn't seem too bad.  We are all definitely on different schedules.   Dh gets up around 5am and leaves for work before I'm out of bed most days.   I'm usually up around 7:30/8:00am on the days I have work.    Dd gets up somewhere between 9am and noon usually, usually doesn't need to be out of the house before 1pm and showers at night.  Ds sometimes doesn't go to sleep until 7am and sleeps until 2 or 3pm, now that he's off for the summer.  When he had classes they were all in the early afternoon.   He showers at all different times of day.  

One thing I do dislike is we don't sit down together to eat.   We don't have anywhere we can.   No eat-in kitchen, no dining room.  We do now have two breakfast bar type seats but we don't generally eat meals there.  The kids eat in their rooms, dh and I eat in the living room.   Our only company is oldest dd and/or my mother and we eat in the living room or outside in nicer weather.  We do have trays for the living room.  

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Wheres Toto said:

One thing I do dislike is we don't sit down together to eat.   We don't have anywhere we can.   No eat-in kitchen, no dining room.  

We regularly have parties in the hall. The main room is down the hall from the kitchen. So when my dh is cooking and we have guests over, we just put chairs in the hall and a small table and eat drink and be merry while he cooks so he can be included in the party. 

I've been known to throw down a towel on the floor in the hall when my ds had 6 teens over for a party, and two of them were taking naps in his bed room and the main room. So dinner in the hall on the floor for five. Trying to get to my bedroom was a bit tricky, but well, we all had a good laugh.

This weekend, my ds invited 5 friends to sleep over. 2 share his bedroom with him (it is 6.5 by 9feet so SMALL), and 3 were in our main room (2 on the sofa bed and one on the floor). Dh and I slept in our room. So 8 adults in 650sq feet for the weekend. Shockingly, there was not trouble with the ONE bathroom!

Clearly, we don't stand on ceremony! All spaces in our apartment get used!

Edited June 25, 2023 by lewelma

[easypeasy]

 ...dh and I are planning to move soon and UPSIZE!! 😂

We are essentially empty-nesters with one graduated and adulting while the other three are college students who don't foresee moving back home permanently. We lived as a family of 5 in an ~>2000 sqft house for years and had limited living as a family of 6 once ds2 joined our family. It always felt "just right" to us. Especially when Covid hit - and everyone had their own space to sort of cocoon up.

 It's impossible to compare American homes to other countries. With so much livable land across the nation, there's a LOT of space here. Not to mention that Americans have different ideas of "personal space" than Europeans or South Americans. 😄 I need my elbow room!! 🙃

 

[Laura Corin]

On 6/25/2023 at 1:04 AM, Shoeless said:

Houses with multiple dining areas within steps of each other make me crazy. Here's your kitchen island with bar seating...and 4 feet away is a kitchen table with chairs...and 6 more feet away is the formal dining room.   

Why is that necessary? I guess the answer is sometimes you feel like sitting here vs there, but you really don't need it.  Is your home dining experience going to diminish because you don't have bar seating sometimes? 

One of my siblings has a house with something like 4 different dining areas: formal dining room off the kitchen, eat in kitchen, 3 season porch off the family room, then another screened in porch off that. The whole house is just...bloated. Formal living room, den, office, even more family room space in the finished basement, various porches, patios, separate laundry room, 3 car garage (but the bays are teeny tiny?), etc.  Enough square footage for each family member to have 1400 sq feet to themselves at all times. 

My other sibling's house is much smaller, but the layout is weird: multiple living spaces, but no real dining area in either the kitchen or the rest of the house. 

We are hoping to remodel shortly. We will end up with a kitchen with space for a small table for Husband and me to eat. The next room is a sun room/sitting room, but will have a dining table against the wall that we pull out when we have guests. That seems to us a better way to maximise the use of space.

To complete the picture - a tiny boot room (we live in the country), utility room, second sitting room with television,  spare room/study, master with en-suite, second spare room/study, spare room, shower room, single garage.

It's certainly more bedrooms than we need, and we may end up renting out part of it. In the meantime,  we can welcome family easily. I've never had a separate utility room or boot room before, and I really appreciate them.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Laura Corin

[BakersDozen]

7 hours ago, wintermom said:

Just cutting square footage of the homes will reduce a ton of power needs. There's a lot of air that is being maintained at comfortable levels in these huge homes. Air takes a lot of energy to maintain a constant temperature.

When we lived in Phoenix we could not believe the size of the homes which were (and still are) being built! Our friends had electric bills in the $400-500 range by April/May, but ours remained around $100-150 tops even in mid-summer as we had a much smaller, slump block home with a/c but also a swamp cooler (which felt SO nice!). The 2-story homes were even worse for energy costs - wowsa.

 

[DawnM]

6 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

Maybe this is why our one bathroom doesn't seem too bad.  We are all definitely on different schedules.   Dh gets up around 5am and leaves for work before I'm out of bed most days.   I'm usually up around 7:30/8:00am on the days I have work.    Dd gets up somewhere between 9am and noon usually, usually doesn't need to be out of the house before 1pm and showers at night.  Ds sometimes doesn't go to sleep until 7am and sleeps until 2 or 3pm, now that he's off for the summer.  When he had classes they were all in the early afternoon.   He showers at all different times of day.  

One thing I do dislike is we don't sit down together to eat.   We don't have anywhere we can.   No eat-in kitchen, no dining room.  We do now have two breakfast bar type seats but we don't generally eat meals there.  The kids eat in their rooms, dh and I eat in the living room.   Our only company is oldest dd and/or my mother and we eat in the living room or outside in nicer weather.  We do have trays for the living room.  

Our house in CA was around 1500 sq. ft.   Two bedrooms.   One full bath and a half bath downstairs.   The half bath was attached to the laundry room and DH removed the large sink in between the washer/dryer and added a smaller sink and corner shower to it to make it a 2nd bathroom.

However, when we moved to NC and bought a house with 3.5 bathrooms, we all still gravitated towards using only one bathroom to shower.   It was pretty funny, I didn't even notice it for a while and then I was like, "Hey, wait a minute!   We have all these bathrooms now, why are we acting like we still only have one?" 🤣

They are much older now and use their own bathrooms.   

Our current house is ridiculous.   We moved in to a house with 4.5 bathrooms and then added a full bathroom is my dad's new apartment, so it is now a 5.5 bathroom house.

[QueenCat]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

 

To completely the picture - a tiny boot room (we live in the country), utility room, second sitting room with television,  spare room/study, master with en-suite, second spare room/study, spare room, shower room, single garage.

 

What is a boot room?

[Jaybee]

Our house is about 1800sf. Rather than a kitchen table/breakfast nook or a dining room, we have more of a dining area. A counter top separates it from the kitchen, and a flooring difference separates it from the living area. It is the smaller side of an L off the living area. Our table seats 6, but is more comfortable with 4, which is how many we have living here. So when we have guests and it isn't the kind of meal that gravitates to the living room seating, we set up a folding table in the living area closest to the dining. It works. I have considered putting a library type table there more permanently for games, puzzles, and then dining when needed, but my rower is currently there. When I can move it to a bedroom, we may do that.

We have often had 1 bathroom in temporary housing. But as I age, I have some (tmi) digestive issues, and want 2 bathrooms even if we only have 2 bedrooms in future.

[DawnM]

2 hours ago, QueenCat said:

What is a boot room?

Prob what we refer to as a mud room.

[wintermom]

9 hours ago, easypeasy said:

 It's impossible to compare American homes to other countries. With so much livable land across the nation, there's a LOT of space here. Not to mention that Americans have different ideas of "personal space" than Europeans or South Americans. 😄 I need my elbow room!! 🙃

 

Canada has a lot more land with only 10% of the population. Australia is huge, with a relatively small population. Norway, Sweden and Finland are all large countries with small populations. Most of the citizens in these countries are comfortable with smaller homes than the average US house. We don't "need" a double-car garage, or even a garage at all.

This notion that America is unique in its "need" for large homes and many cars is just part of the mindset that bigger is better, and having more stuff means something special.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you alone. You just happened to touch on exactly the reasoning that many Americans seem to believe.

ETA: The comedian Jim Gaffigan, 100% American, is/was living in a 2-bedroom apartment with his wife and 5 children in NYC (upstairs!). In his book, "Dad is fat," he describes exactly why they live this way, and how they manage the bedtime routine with 5 very young children. It's masterfully done! 

I'm thinking that lots of Americans can and willingly choose to live in smaller spaces. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by wintermom

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, QueenCat said:

What is a boot room?

Mud room? Where you take off your muddy outdoor clothing and towel down the dog.

[wintermom]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

Mud room? Where you take off your muddy outdoor clothing and towel down the dog.

I want one! My entry way is the worst design imaginable. Sadly, there's no way to fix it. Enjoy your boot room!! 😉 

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

Canada has a lot more land with only 10% of the population. Australia is huge, with a relatively small population. Norway, Sweden and Finland are all large countries with small populations. Most of the citizens in these countries are comfortable with smaller homes than the average US house. We don't "need" a double-car garage, or even a garage at all.

This notion that America is unique in its "need" for large homes and many cars is just part of the mindset that bigger is better, and having more stuff means something special.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you alone. You just happened to touch on exactly the reasoning that many Americans seem to believe.

ETA: The comedian Jim Gaffigan, 100% American, is/was living in a 2-bedroom apartment with his wife and 5 children in NYC (upstairs!). In his book, "Dad is fat," he describes exactly why they live this way, and how they manage the bedtime routine with 5 very young children. It's masterfully done! 

I'm thinking that lots of Americans can and willingly choose to live in smaller spaces. 

You definitely have a point in that a lot of wants are claimed to be needs, but I’m not sure it’s very unique to get the best quality of living that you can afford. Scrambling to provide for your needs and some of your wants isn’t uniquely American.  If public transportation could get us there faster and easier than driving, we’d gladly use it. Heck, if public transportation didn’t take hours longer than driving, we’d use it, but that’s only an option in some regions. So, if you want to eat you get a job and drive to it. If you can afford a home with a garage, you buy one. If you live in an area with mild weather, you don’t have the same heating or cooling requirements as they do in harsher regions with longer winters or hotter summers.
 

Most people aren’t purchasing land and building a home. They’re choosing from what is available and sometimes you don’t have a lot of choice within commuting distance to your job. Also, while most people own their homes, this ownership includes townhouses and condos and mobile homes. Not everyone can have, nor do they even want, a detached single family home. It probably seems that way based on conversations here, but this board definitely skews heavily towards the privileged, educated, white collar experience. 

My daughter lives near DC.  She uses public transportation often and her apartment is tiny. She and her husband have no desire to take care of any amount of property. They love city living. 
 

FWIW, I don’t have a garage and DH and I share a vehicle. We drove sedans until we HAD to get a van for accessibility. Most of what we need is within a five mile radius. We’re not all out here trying to gobble up every resource we can because we can. I grew up with 6 people sharing one bathroom so I do know that it’s not THAT big of a sacrifice. I can’t imagine choosing to heat/cool 3000+ sq feet unless you have 8 kids.  I don’t understand the worship of super high ceilings with such high heating costs.  I don’t know how people pull it off in regions where water is really expensive. 

[Pawz4me]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

Canada has a lot more land with only 10% of the population.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but apparently Canada has a teensy bit more square mileage than the U.S. Most sources I checked cite about 3,855,100 square miles versus 3,796,742, which maths out to a 1.6 percent difference. I'm not sure that constitutes "a lot."  Plus most sources say that when water areas are excluded the US comes out ahead. Yeah, I'm lazy and haven't cited sources, but World Atlas was the one I used the most--it's all easy to find info and little to no disagreement.

I tried to go down the rabbit hole of "livable" land, which was @easypeasy's point, but that got kind of complicated. It was easy to find various articles that talked about how much of each country's land was uninhabited, but that's different than being unlivable. I assume vast swaths of northern Canada aren't easily livable, but the same is true of much of our western desert areas.

[Arcadia]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:37 AM, teachermom2834 said:

So…I really do think we can significantly downsize. But there is something scary about it. I’m afraid we make this big move when prices are so high only to find we really did need the space.

Floor plan and location. My childhood home was around 800sqft. Toilet and bath were separated. So someone could bath while someone else needs the toilet.  The floor plan was wheelchair friendly. We were surrounded by shops, dental clinics, general practitioners, bus stops and light rail train stops. My dad could walk to work. My mom could take the bus. 
My parents second home was larger, around 1300 sqft. However, it was not walkable to the bus stop and shops for my late mom when her rheumatoid arthritis worsen.  So she moved into a smaller home which is elderly friendly and again very near shops, bus stops, general practitioners and dental clinics. She could walk with a walker to these places and when she became wheelchair bound, my dad could wheel her to the shops. 
Where I live now, the floor plan is wheelchair friendly. I used to wheel a double baby jogger (wider than a wheelchair) from main door to bedroom. It is a walkable area and anyone who needs to use a personal mobility device finds it easy to go anywhere to do their grocery shopping, the library, dental, pharmacy, optician, walk in clinics. We also have a light rail station and multiple bus stops nearby so easy for someone using a PMD to go places. I do want a larger home only because our home is a one bedroom condo. Our neighbor has a three bedroom condo and it’s just nice with two adult sons staying with them.  One of the adult son is married but sometimes he and his wife comes back and stay the night. 

[lewelma]

I always find it so interesting that this board seems to be mostly rural or suburban.  Where are all the city dwellers who have apartments? Maybe they don't homeschool?

[Arcadia]

25 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I always find it so interesting that this board seems to be mostly rural or suburban.  Where are all the city dwellers who have apartments? Maybe they don't homeschool?

I live in a one bedroom condo. My area is in between being suburban and city. 

[rebcoola]

I live in my city proper its Im still in a  house.  I think thats the norm unless its big metro city.  My Brother lives in West Seattle and its a house he doesnt really have land. They mostly commute by light rail but do still keep a car.

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I always find it so interesting that this board seems to be mostly rural or suburban.  Where are all the city dwellers who have apartments? Maybe they don't homeschool?

 

[wintermom]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but apparently Canada has a teensy bit more square mileage than the U.S. Most sources I checked cite about 3,855,100 square miles versus 3,796,742, which maths out to a 1.6 percent difference. I'm not sure that constitutes "a lot."  Plus most sources say that when water areas are excluded the US comes out ahead. Yeah, I'm lazy and haven't cited sources, but World Atlas was the one I used the most--it's all easy to find info and little to no disagreement.

I tried to go down the rabbit hole of "livable" land, which was @easypeasy's point, but that got kind of complicated. It was easy to find various articles that talked about how much of each country's land was uninhabited, but that's different than being unlivable. I assume vast swaths of northern Canada aren't easily livable, but the same is true of much of our western desert areas.

The difference in size between Canada and the US is 612,060 square kms size, which is approximately the size of the Ukraine. And guess what, the population of the Ukraine is 36 million, only slightly smaller than Canada. Kind of funny how that worked out.

I guess you could argue whether that size different is "a lot" or not, but with only a tenth of the population, Canada has way more land per person than the US. And believe it or not, people are living in virtually all areas of the country, with greater numbers of Indigenous persons living typically in the most remote areas - much of these areas being their traditional lands (Inuit in the north, coastal Indigenous persons on the west coast mainland and islands). Yes, there are large portions of land which are not highly populated, but that's not the same as unihabited. 

ETA: Just remembered what someone posted regarding home insurance in Florida becoming either impossible to get or very expensive. Does this make Florida potentially "unlivable" in the future? Will there be more parts of the US that face similar challenges due to weather occurances, floods, fires, etc.?

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by wintermom

[wintermom]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

You definitely have a point in that a lot of wants are claimed to be needs, but I’m not sure it’s very unique to get the best quality of living that you can afford. Scrambling to provide for your needs and some of your wants isn’t uniquely American.  If public transportation could get us there faster and easier than driving, we’d gladly use it. Heck, if public transportation didn’t take hours longer than driving, we’d use it, but that’s only an option in some regions. So, if you want to eat you get a job and drive to it. If you can afford a home with a garage, you buy one. If you live in an area with mild weather, you don’t have the same heating or cooling requirements as they do in harsher regions with longer winters or hotter summers.
 

Most people aren’t purchasing land and building a home. They’re choosing from what is available and sometimes you don’t have a lot of choice within commuting distance to your job. Also, while most people own their homes, this ownership includes townhouses and condos and mobile homes. Not everyone can have, nor do they even want, a detached single family home. It probably seems that way based on conversations here, but this board definitely skews heavily towards the privileged, educated, white collar experience. 

My daughter lives near DC.  She uses public transportation often and her apartment is tiny. She and her husband have no desire to take care of any amount of property. They love city living. 
 

FWIW, I don’t have a garage and DH and I share a vehicle. We drove sedans until we HAD to get a van for accessibility. Most of what we need is within a five mile radius. We’re not all out here trying to gobble up every resource we can because we can. I grew up with 6 people sharing one bathroom so I do know that it’s not THAT big of a sacrifice. I can’t imagine choosing to heat/cool 3000+ sq feet unless you have 8 kids.  I don’t understand the worship of super high ceilings with such high heating costs.  I don’t know how people pull it off in regions where water is really expensive. 

I guess the point I'm making is that we are all part of a global community, and when countries with large populations, as the US, continue to build large, expensive to heat and cool homes, exponentially expanding the square miles of cities, causing people to drive father distances to get to places they want/need to go, then we're making choices that will have consequenses now and certainly continue to have consequenses in the future. 

This kind of living just adds to the "need" for more power sources for homes, cities and vehicles. When does making choices that look to the future start to happen? How long can you go on pretending that this way of living is going to be sustainable? 

[fairfarmhand]

Here’s what I’m seeing in my area—the builders are not building small homes on a small lot. You can get a townhouse. Or you get a giant 3000 squ ft house. Those are the options for a new build. The older homes thaf are 900-1200 squ ft sell in a second. But starter homes, affordable for young families are so very difficult to find.  

[Ottakee]

23 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Here’s what I’m seeing in my area—the builders are not building small homes on a small lot. You can get a townhouse. Or you get a giant 3000 squ ft house. Those are the options for a new build. The older homes thaf are 900-1200 squ ft sell in a second. But starter homes, affordable for young families are so very difficult to find.  

In our area, even in the rural township you can NOT build a 900-1200 sq ft house.   Minimum allowed is 1280 sq ft.

even the house I am in currently had to add a bump out into the garage to make the 1280 sq ft.   It is a half bath/laundry combo and I am thankful to have a main floor laundry.

Municipalities might need to revisit the zoning regulations and allow smaller starter homes to be built.   But the attitude I see here is that they would then be lower cost and lower cost homes means poorer people could afford them which means “undesirable “ people might move in.  I don’t agree but it is the same with everyone wanting affordable housing/apartments…..just not in their neighborhood/town.

[Pawz4me]

29 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Here’s what I’m seeing in my area—the builders are not building small homes on a small lot. You can get a townhouse. Or you get a giant 3000 squ ft house. Those are the options for a new build. The older homes thaf are 900-1200 squ ft sell in a second. But starter homes, affordable for young families are so very difficult to find.  

It also makes things harder for older people who want to downsize but don’t really want a condo or townhouse. 

[Resilient]

We moved and thought we would downsize. HAH.

We bought a house with exactly the same number of bedrooms, exactly the same square footage.

For a family, this house would be terrible. Open concept living, dining, kitchen has a lot of "wasted" space...unless you are having a big party...and since we do that a lot, this house is wonderful.

The primary bedroom suite has a TON of "wasted" space...but I like the feeling of spaciousness, and that I have my own private dressing room/closet and so does DH.

I have an office, DH has an office, which I like. I get my dining room table back.

We have a dedicated guest suite and a dedicate-able guest suite, so there's some more "wasted" space. ...but it's not wasted if you like having people stay at your house.  

It's pretty much one-floor living, and I really like that! No more laundry-hauling up and down stairs.

So I guess we didn't meet our "downsize" goal...but we are very happy with the house, for this time in our lives.  And I think that is the point, really, of a house: to let you live the life you want to live. 

[katilac]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:10 AM, DawnM said:

You know what really got me thinking about this?  

Yesterday I watched an episode of Little House on the Prairie and their house was so tiny and like a tiny house.......a loft for the kids to all bunk together, and a bedroom under the loft and the main room and kitchen......that's it!   

We'd all have much smaller houses if we had to build them ourselves, lol 

22 hours ago, Shoeless said:

Houses with multiple dining areas within steps of each other make me crazy. Here's your kitchen island with bar seating...and 4 feet away is a kitchen table with chairs...and 6 more feet away is the formal dining room.   

Why is that necessary? 

I'm sure some people have company more frequently than others. 

It's also multi-purpose for many people. When we were homeschooling, multiple tables definitely came in handy, and I'm sure plenty of kids do homework at the kitchen or dining room table. Eating areas are more easily multi-purpose than the other way around, so I see it as making more sense than having a dedicated desk elsewhere in the house. 

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

I always find it so interesting that this board seems to be mostly rural or suburban.  Where are all the city dwellers who have apartments? Maybe they don't homeschool?

It's generally more expensive to live in the city, and homeschoolers are often one income. 

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

 ITA: Just remembered what someone posted regarding home insurance in Florida becoming either impossible to get or very expensive. Does this make Florida potentially "unlivable" in the future? Will there be more parts of the US that face similar challenges due to weather occurances, floods, fires, etc.?

 

More parts of the entire world will face similar changes, it just hits some places quicker than others. 

7 hours ago, wintermom said:

 ETA: The comedian Jim Gaffigan, 100% American, is/was living in a 2-bedroom apartment with his wife and 5 children in NYC (upstairs!). In his book, "Dad is fat," he describes exactly why they live this way, and how they manage the bedtime routine with 5 very young children. It's masterfully done! 

 

 They live in three apartments now, so I don't think this was a deeply-held ideological position for him. 

Plus, I'm not sure how the carbon footprint of small living quarters with constant travel compares to larger living quarters with typical travel. Someone will have to do the math. 

[Resilient]

@katilac You said: I'm sure some people have company more frequently than others. 

It's also multi-purpose for many people. When we were homeschooling, multiple tables definitely came in handy, and I'm sure plenty of kids do homework at the kitchen or dining room table. Eating areas are more easily multi-purpose than the other way around, so I see it as making more sense than having a dedicated desk elsewhere in the house. 

 

THIS. I had a house with a living room we never used. That was great because when people (like my mother) showed up, I had at least one clean room in the house.  

[fairfarmhand]

6 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

It also makes things harder for older people who want to downsize but don’t really want a condo or townhouse. 

My dh says that a contractor has to do mostly the same amount ofwork on a big house as a smaller one. But gets less $.  We toy with the idea of making a housing development of small starter homes, just to help young families get started. Maybe when he retires. 
but there are so many people, young families retirees, young singles, who would love a small yard and a small affordable one level home. In a pleasant neighborhood.

[frogger]

14 hours ago, wintermom said:

Canada has a lot more land with only 10% of the population. Australia is huge, with a relatively small population. Norway, Sweden and Finland are all large countries with small populations. Most of the citizens in these countries are comfortable with smaller homes than the average US house. We don't "need" a double-car garage, or even a garage at all.

This notion that America is unique in its "need" for large homes and many cars is just part of the mindset that bigger is better, and having more stuff means something special.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you alone. You just happened to touch on exactly the reasoning that many Americans seem to believe.

ETA: The comedian Jim Gaffigan, 100% American, is/was living in a 2-bedroom apartment with his wife and 5 children in NYC (upstairs!). In his book, "Dad is fat," he describes exactly why they live this way, and how they manage the bedtime routine with 5 very young children. It's masterfully done! 

I'm thinking that lots of Americans can and willingly choose to live in smaller spaces. 

I doubt most Americans need large homes. We probably agree on that but it appears that other countries with money and land do have bigger homes and America is not unique in this.

 

Most places I could find showed Australian homes were the biggest and Canada didn't trail the US by much. Considering Canada has a lower per capita GDP it really just seemed to track that.

Australia wins out in this one.

https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/

 

 

This one had Australia on top also  but Canada was further down the list than I had seen elsewhere. Typically they make it to third place. 

https://homescopes.com/average-home-size/

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/house-size-by-country

Anyway, I agree wealthy Americans, Canadians, and Australians could tone things down a bit.

A huge struggle where I live is laws made by the older generations pushing SFH and larger ones at that for developers to make more money one. Many places multi-family housing is outlawed. It is frustrating!

 

 

 

[SHP]

I was thinking about this thread, specifically the multiple places to eat posts this past weekend. I noticed the newer places the top floor was completely open, the kitchen had a bar for eating, there was an informal table a few feet away, and then a formal dinning room around the corner, but not really around the corner, if that makes sense. And then another eating area. Some even had an eating space outside as well.

Now, I am all about tables. We are a family of tinkerers and makers and we have tables to work/build at, but it seemed odd to have so many for eating. Or maybe they put out the placemats and such for display? Is that a decoration trend I do not know about?

We eat at a tiny table in the kitchen. I really want a nice patio set with firepit to eat outside almost all year round. 

The rest of the house is a living room (with tables), bedrooms (with the unoccupied being maker space set ups that have ugly storage that I do not want to see all the time), bathrooms and laundry. I don't want to sell anytime soon either to upsize or downsize, packing up and staging it to reflect what is the expected use of the space would be a pain. 

[SHP]

38 minutes ago, frogger said:

I doubt most Americans need large homes. We probably agree on that but it appears that other countries with money and land do have bigger homes and America is not unique in this.

 

Most places I could find showed Australian homes were the biggest and Canada didn't trail the US by much. Considering Canada has a lower per capita GDP it really just seemed to track that.

Australia wins out in this one.

https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/

 

 

This one had Australia on top also  but Canada was further down the list than I had seen elsewhere. Typically they make it to third place. 

https://homescopes.com/average-home-size/

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/house-size-by-country

Anyway, I agree wealthy Americans, Canadians, and Australians could tone things down a bit.

A huge struggle where I live is laws made by the older generations pushing SFH and larger ones at that for developers to make more money one. Many places multi-family housing is outlawed. It is frustrating!

 

 

 

In a nearby county this ban is causing huge issues with families who need or want to have generational living arrangements. People are still doing it but living in fear that they will be reported. I am not exactly sure what can be done about it and how they would prove it, is there some body of government that inspects residents to determine if they have multiple family units? Does it go by mail sent to that address? However it is done, the fear is real and sad. I don't see this changing as housing becomes more expensive and people cannot afford their own place.

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, SHP said:

I was thinking about this thread, specifically the multiple places to eat posts this past weekend. I noticed the newer places the top floor was completely open, the kitchen had a bar for eating, there was an informal table a few feet away, and then a formal dinning room around the corner, but not really around the corner, if that makes sense. And then another eating area. Some even had an eating space outside as well.

Now, I am all about tables. We are a family of tinkerers and makers and we have tables to work/build at, but it seemed odd to have so many for eating. Or maybe they put out the placemats and such for display? Is that a decoration trend I do not know about?

We eat at a tiny table in the kitchen. I really want a nice patio set with firepit to eat outside almost all year round. 

The rest of the house is a living room (with tables), bedrooms (with the unoccupied being maker space set ups that have ugly storage that I do not want to see all the time), bathrooms and laundry. I don't want to sell anytime soon either to upsize or downsize, packing up and staging it to reflect what is the expected use of the space would be a pain. 

This is exactly what I am talking about. 

[KungFuPanda]

7 hours ago, SHP said:

In a nearby county this ban is causing huge issues with families who need or want to have generational living arrangements. People are still doing it but living in fear that they will be reported. I am not exactly sure what can be done about it and how they would prove it, is there some body of government that inspects residents to determine if they have multiple family units? Does it go by mail sent to that address? However it is done, the fear is real and sad. I don't see this changing as housing becomes more expensive and people cannot afford their own place.

I would love to turn my home into a two family house. Each “unit” would have two bedrooms, a living area, kitchen, and bathroom. Both spaces would be much larger than my dds current condo. However, the laws that were originally written to benefit developers and that were strengthened to prohibit Air BnBs leaves me with limited options to add a second kitchen. I can legally add a kitchenette to an in-law suite, but if the second living space is more than 1/3 the size of my home it won’t be legal. Creating one home upstairs and one downstairs makes the most sense. I’m also required to have three off street parking spaces to get this approved. I do, but just barely. 
 

I do understand why the laws are in place. Increasing living density without increasing infrastructure is a bad idea. Our schools are already overcrowded and the developers keep building. 

[DawnM]

46 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I would love to turn my home into a two family house. Each “unit” would have two bedrooms, a living area, kitchen, and bathroom. Both spaces would be much larger than my dds current condo. However, the laws that were originally written to benefit developers and that were strengthened to prohibit Air BnBs leaves me with limited options to add a second kitchen. I can legally add a kitchenette to an in-law suite, but if the second living space is more than 1/3 the size of my home it won’t be legal. Creating one home upstairs and one downstairs makes the most sense. I’m also required to have three off street parking spaces to get this approved. I do, but just barely. 
 

I do understand why the laws are in place. Increasing living density without increasing infrastructure is a bad idea. Our schools are already overcrowded and the developers keep building. 

This is just a thought.  Could you "flex" space some rooms?   As in, give 2 doors, one on each side, so technically the space could be used by either side?   That way, you can quickly make it look "legal" for selling purposes should you need to sell, AND you could make it pass inspection.

[DawnM]

8 hours ago, SHP said:

In a nearby county this ban is causing huge issues with families who need or want to have generational living arrangements. People are still doing it but living in fear that they will be reported. I am not exactly sure what can be done about it and how they would prove it, is there some body of government that inspects residents to determine if they have multiple family units? Does it go by mail sent to that address? However it is done, the fear is real and sad. I don't see this changing as housing becomes more expensive and people cannot afford their own place.

typically you don't get caught unless someone turns you in.   For example, my friend in CA turned her 1 car garage into a den.   There were no permit pulled and the city said you have to have a covered parking structure. 

They were getting some work done on the house and the builder saw it and reported it.   They ended up having to put in a $10k carport to be up to code.

So, if they ever have a plumber in, or a repairman, and they see it, they could potentially report it.

[SHP]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I would love to turn my home into a two family house. Each “unit” would have two bedrooms, a living area, kitchen, and bathroom. Both spaces would be much larger than my dds current condo. However, the laws that were originally written to benefit developers and that were strengthened to prohibit Air BnBs leaves me with limited options to add a second kitchen. I can legally add a kitchenette to an in-law suite, but if the second living space is more than 1/3 the size of my home it won’t be legal. Creating one home upstairs and one downstairs makes the most sense. I’m also required to have three off street parking spaces to get this approved. I do, but just barely. 
 

I do understand why the laws are in place. Increasing living density without increasing infrastructure is a bad idea. Our schools are already overcrowded and the developers keep building. 

I understand the why, the problem is in some areas housing costs are out of control and do not match income. An apartment near me that is the same size as our master suite is more than the our mortgage and more than my income. That is just wrong. 

 

These do not have any amenities. No pool, no common area, not easy access to public transportation, nothing. Just a tiny place.

Edited June 26, 2023 by SHP

[frogger]

Where I am it is not the developers who are blocking change. They are just following the laws and trying to make money while doing it. 

The problem is the people who "got theirs" and don't care about anyone else.  Our city is trying to change our zoning laws and all the outcry from my neighborhood was ridiculous. I just was in an argument with a woman who said and I quote, " I FEEL Eagle River doesn't need more homes."  Facts don't care about your feelings though. Case managers of homeless say they have people ready with jobs and funds and nowhere for them to go. There aren't openings. I knew three young professionals who roomed together couldn't find a place to live for 8 months. They would see an opening, jump on it day 1 and the landlords would have 30 applications within a day or 2. 

Yet people who already have theirs "feel" like we have enough housing. 😣

I do think planning for infastructure, green spaces, etc makes a place much nicer but every single thing proposed is billed as unwanted change, only for poor people, or ruining neighborhood character. It feels hopeless against a certain dug in group that wants no change. I miss having my kids around all the time like when they were 10 but that doesn't mean I should treat my 30 year old like 10 year. That is called denial, insanity, fantasy land whatever. But they think they can control population by just not allowing more building. 

[SHP]

4 hours ago, DawnM said:

typically you don't get caught unless someone turns you in.   For example, my friend in CA turned her 1 car garage into a den.   There were no permit pulled and the city said you have to have a covered parking structure. 

They were getting some work done on the house and the builder saw it and reported it.   They ended up having to put in a $10k carport to be up to code.

So, if they ever have a plumber in, or a repairman, and they see it, they could potentially report it.

Dang, that seems invasive. Like ok you were reported, how do they substantiate the reports? With a physical inspection? Does the city have to get a court order to enter the property? Couldn't the person just remove the den temporarily, open the garage to show it is a garage and then just return it to a den? 

I really think I am missing something here. 😕

 

Our city and neighborhood have extensive exterior codes and restrictions and compliance can be determined by driving by. Sometimes it feels like the city cannot enforce them and it's only extreme cases that get any movement, such as the roof collapsing and the owner still trying to live there. Usually there are mental health issues involved at that point so maybe the push is from another organization to take action?