If you are a mass every Sunday kind of Catholic

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Another option is to see if there is some kind of standard for "good standing" at the church you attend. Some that have Catholic schools will have a tiered tuition system so that parish members in good standing get a significant discount. maybe find out how they define that level of attendance, and you could use that. 

But see, Catholics are obligated to attend Mass weekly and on holy days of obligation, so using tuition discounts to figure out how often one can miss Mass just doesn't sit right with me. o_0

[Drama Llama]

7 minutes ago, Ellie said:

But see, Catholics are obligated to attend Mass weekly and on holy days of obligation, so using tuition discounts to figure out how often one can miss Mass just doesn't sit right with me. o_0

So, I'm guessing from this that you're Catholic.  What would you say is reasonable?  

 

[Drama Llama]

46 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I agree with all the other posters about needing an age at which they are no longer compelled to do as you (or he) dictates.  If not, you may find yourself with some resentful kids.  I am hoping that church attendance by them continues to be a place where they find love and support ❤️. But teen years are hard! 

Honest question- if you do get this in writing, will he stop saying you are in contempt?  Or will he latch onto something else?  I ask, because it might be a safe thing for him to be able to focus on and file about, especially if you ARE going to mass and taking them.  If he's filing for contempt bc you skipped 2x in 3 months,  the judge will just throw it out.  He looks ridiculous,  you look like an abused wife (and you are, even if you can't see that right now).  In other words, he's going to bring you to court for SOMETHING.  This one doesn't make you look bad at all.  It shows his controlling nature. 

Mass attendance isn't really the issue.  We attend Mass.  He has had complaints about where they attend Mass, or who they attend Mass with.  But he can't complain about them missing because they really don't miss. 

[Drama Llama]

36 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

Plus, unless you are using "out of court" in the casual sense and actually plan to have the agreement approved by the court, his threats are useless. He can't take you to court for violating a custody agreement that was not approved by a judge. 

 

Whatever we decide on will be presented to the court and will be approved by the judge.  That's assuming we ever agree on anything.  We are hoping to avoid a trial. 

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, BandH said:

Mass attendance isn't really the issue.  We attend Mass.  He has had complaints about where they attend Mass, or who they attend Mass with.  But he can't complain about them missing because they really don't miss. 

At that point it’s not really about religious upbringing.   It’s about control and would probably be covered under parts of custody, such as the right to approve a sleepover.   Attending mass with someone else or at a different Catholic church is still raising them in the religion.  You might be able to sprinkle in clauses in other parts of the agreement that you can point to to cover yourself. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Heartstrings

[katilac]

31 minutes ago, BandH said:

Mass attendance isn't really the issue.  We attend Mass.  He has had complaints about where they attend Mass, or who they attend Mass with.  But he can't complain about them missing because they really don't miss. 

I would not be okay with including things like where they can attend Mass, and most definitely not who they can attend Mass with. That's ridiculous and requires you or the kids to be reporting to him, which would be a big nope from me. If you agree to that, is he going to want the priest to sign their bulletin as proof next? 

This is a very 'safe' thing for him to complain about, and the man is absolutely going to complain about something. I would not be answering this type of question. 'The boys always have the opportunity to attend mass and they really don't miss. I'm not going to get pulled into a conversation about where they attended or who they attended with, but I will assure you that they are attending.' You don't need to continue the conversation just because he wants to argue about it or threaten contempt motions; in fact, I'd probably only communicate via text. 

Threatening you with contempt over this type of thing is a very idle threat. And, no, crafting the perfect raise-them-Catholic agreement will not stop those threats, they will just be about something else. 

I don't know that dealing with him endlessly about this kind of thing is worth avoiding court. I would offer him something reasonable and then tell him I'd see him in court if he refuses to sign, because court is not going to go well for him. 

[Katy]

Frankly I would refuse to include it if his point is that they must attend at a certain church at a certain time so he can monitor that remotely through, for example, a sister whose goal is to cause trouble.

Their faith needs to be driven by their faith, not by a legal agreement or the next church scandal (or an old one) combined with the stress of a mentally ill parent’s control will drive them away from any faith altogether. They’re almost past the education phase and into the personal practice phase anyway. His moral authority is more or less gone at this point.

You don’t live in a particularly rural area, so if a child starts refusing mass or anything else a judge will likely take the teenager’s side. Mostly because if things that have nothing to do with your family but because cause many teens end up in foster care over their lack of compliance with religious issues like sex, gender identity, and sexuality. 

[matrips]

if he agreed to raise them Catholic, I think guidelines for that should come from whoever your parish priest was. Ask for a sit down with your priest on what it means to raise your children Catholic.

we got to Mass every Sunday, but I didn’t used to realize it is a mortal sin to miss (without a really valid reason). I’ve learned more as I’ve aged.

[EKS]

11 hours ago, BandH said:

That would surprise me.

I'd definitely build in something that specifies what happens anyway, because you never know.

[wintermom]

10 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Legally, when they turn 18 or perhaps earlier if they find a way to convince the court to change the orders. (My daughter ran away until the system admitted defeat.)

There is no discounting the legal when there are court orders in place. 

Sure, but who is informing "the court" of compliance and who is setting up the details in the court orders and for what purpose? Is it to please the parents, please one parent, please "the court" (whoever that may be)? Who advocates 100% for the child?

[Rosie_0801]

28 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Sure, but who is informing "the court" of compliance and who is setting up the details in the court orders and for what purpose? Is it to please the parents, please one parent, please "the court" (whoever that may be)? Who advocates 100% for the child?

That could be everyone, no one or somewhere in between. Are you really asking for the answers to your other questions? I assume they are rhetorical?

The family court is a hot mess and personal experience tends to cure a person of their idealism. It doesn't matter what any of us think justice is or should be. Law and justice are not synonyms. Courts are places of law, not justice. It's hard luck to most people who pass through it.

I don't know what you're asking me for. I couldn't fix it for myself or my child. I can't fix it for anyone else.

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Ellie said:

But see, Catholics are obligated to attend Mass weekly and on holy days of obligation, so using tuition discounts to figure out how often one can miss Mass just doesn't sit right with me. o_0

Right, but the obligation is waived if a person is sick, car breaks down and they can't get there, you are caring for a person who is sick, etc. It is understood that you won't be at Mass EVERY Sunday for your entire life. You are expected to use proper wisdom to determine if too sick to attend, etc. But her husband is not capable of that, he has in the past berated a child for being too sick to do something if I remember correctly, and insisted they do it anyway. So although any sane person would understand that if the mom or kid says the kid is too sick to go to Mass they are too sick, this guy would likely argue and use it as a reason to go back to court. So she needs something that is more loose than the guideline of "every Mass and Holy Day of Obligation that is possible to go to" because he will argue about if it was or not possible. 

9 hours ago, BandH said:

Mass attendance isn't really the issue.  We attend Mass.  He has had complaints about where they attend Mass, or who they attend Mass with.  But he can't complain about them missing because they really don't miss. 

Ok, huh? Cause pretty sure even your priest wouldn't argue about that stuff? 

Could you have a "will raise children Catholic with guidance from our parish priest" or something? 

[BusyMom5]

Again, do not put ANY of this in writing.  This is not hammering out details. This is extremely controlling.  You don't realize it bc you keep thinking you need to work with him, but he's sick.  He isn't going to be reasonable about anything - you ARE raising the kids Catholic according to every other Catholic person on this thread, and in your parish.   His past behavior with regard to your kids tells us he will use anything he can to exert control over you and them.  If the courts put you in control of the kids, thdn hes going to push to control THROUGH YOU.  By continuing to give him control, you are putting wedges between you and your kids. You are agreeing to become him puppet.  Those wedges haven't worked in very deep yet, but your kids are right at the age that it starts. You are stuck between him and your kids.  You are the only one protecting their interests.  Don't become his puppet.  

[chiguirre]

13 hours ago, BandH said:

Kids will attend mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, and be will be notified if they miss more than X in Y period of time. 

 

Who is going to do the notifying? Parishes don't take attendance at mass. They usually define "in good standing" as meeting a threshold of financial contributions or asking for a waiver for financial hardship. Most people use automatic payments now, almost nobody is tossing in a preprinted envelop with your name on it. Are you going to have to send him a time-stamped geolocated photo every time you go to Mass?

[wintermom]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I don't know what you're asking me for. I couldn't fix it for myself or my child. I can't fix it for anyone else.

I'm only asking you as you're a fount of wonderful knowledge! 😉 

I hope my questions didn't cause too much annoyance. I can only imagine the pain and frustration jumping through legal hoops causes everyone involved. 

[bolt.]

I know we are getting off topic, but I'm also not in favour of you generating customized legal obligations for yourself in order to satisfy your controlling estranged husband. That's basically taking his wishes and giving them the power of law. It's consenting to *willingly live by extra laws* that have been designed by your abuser.

There's no court that would rule that you should be put under such obligations.

Inventing new laws that only apply to 'people who happen to be divorced from my ex' is a rejection of your personal dignity and equality before the laws of your country. Courts will let you do it, and if you sign it, they will get involved if you violate it: but it is fundamentally oppressive. It creates a new category of humans before the law, which only consists of one person, and you are considering willingly entering into that bondage.

I don't know what compelling motivation you have that has led you to want to placate him in this. I don't mean that sarcastically. I mean that I assume you, as a wise and compassionate person, actually do have a very compelling reason of some kind. I encourage you to think about this in formal terms: based on what you think you are gaining by including terms of religious compliance in your divorce decree... please also consider what you are losing? It's not nothing. And it's not a reasonable compromise of any kind. It's not just something he wants, that will reassure him, and it probably won't be a problem anyways. It has the potential to be a legally binding concession of human rights.

It could give your controlling abusive ex spouse legally sanctioned control over the religious lives of you and your children for the next decade or so. That's a huge extension of his control. (Well beyond any control he had during the marriage.)

And it won't stop him from threatening you with 'contempt' or placing your actions before a judge in the future anyhow. He will find a way, even if you word things very carefully. In reply to his threats, remember it's just as easy to say, "I am raising them Catholic. If you think not, please contact (priest) at (priest's email)." as it is to say, "I am taking them to mass. If you think not, I can provide records." -- both just take some confidence, because they feel risky, but both are equally true, and equally legally sound.

Edited June 19, 2023 by bolt.

[Faith-manor]

I am not Catholic. But I do want to speak to the spouse that constantly makes contempt complaints in the court. My brother did this absolutely constantly to his ex wife. The custody agreement was constantly amended to his whims. She bent, and bent, and bent to try to get him to finally give up and allow her and the kids to live their lives. But my brother is a prick, not mentally ill like your ex, however in action, VERY similar. He did not let up. He just kept finding excuses to go to court and make her life miserable though he was never going to get custody of the kids. He was willing to waste the court's time, and his own money to drain her wallet and make her miserable, and didn't give a crap how that impacted the mental health of his kids. Finally she got mad, hired an absolute shark of an attorney, let it go to trial, and my brother got spanked, spanked hard. The judge blew his top! In the end, he lost ALL say of any kind in any way in the lives of his children. She literally was only obligated to inform of major life events, and school grades/reports. She was nice enough to invite him to their high school graduation parties.

I would urge you to consider letting it go to trial because in the long run that short term pain might be a lot better for you and your children.

[Clemsondana]

I completely understand wanting to be specific to avoid future conflict.  One caution that I have is that things can get wacky during the teen years, in unforseeable ways.  Our church is Methodist, not Catholic, although we have Catholic friends and I know that there are differences.  But, we are also people who have traditionally been our church more than 45 Sundays, probably more like 48, most years.  But, both kids play sports (in different seasons).  Some years we seem to have mostly afternoon games on Sunday, but occasionally we hit a stretch where our team seems to have every 9 am game.  Twice over the years we have been at national science competitions, with the team traveling back on Sunday or Monday.  I just saw one of the youth at church have to miss several Sundays over the course of her senior year for college visits/admitted student weekends.  Spouse has missed some Sundays doing caregiving for parents, and it's unpredictable when caregiving will be needed for anybody in a family or community (I once missed due to having been up all night because a weird situation caused CPS involvement for a friend, and I agreed to take her kids for the short term until it could get worked out, and another Sunday my kids went with my parents to a different church while spouse and I drove 3 hours to be at the funeral for a long-time friend's father - as important as worship is, I think we did the right thing in both cases). 

However much you may intend to be at the service every week, and even if you don't participate in extracurriculars that cause you to miss, I would be very hesitant to be legally tied in to attending a certain percentage of Sundays.  Maybe 'raise children in accordance with guidelines/expectations of the Catholic Church' or something like that?  Would that be enough?  Since the expectation is that you will attend but use your good judgement about when to miss, that would give you some space.  You can't plan for everything - nobody would expect you to step over your neighbor having a heart attack to get to church, but you can't list that or any of the other hundreds of things that could happen as reasonable exceptions even though they would be understood by most people.  

[catz]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

However much you may intend to be at the service every week, and even if you don't participate in extracurriculars that cause you to miss, I would be very hesitant to be legally tied in to attending a certain percentage of Sundays.  Maybe 'raise children in accordance with guidelines/expectations of the Catholic Church' or something like that?

I was raised Catholic - attended 9 years of Catholic School, was confirmed, etc.   But I was also an academic kid involved in extracurriculars and this is how I feel about it.  I would fight hard to keep the langugage as vague as possible.   I also wouldn't pick this as one of my battles if as a teen one of your kids suddenly doesn't want to attend.  

Tight control of teens is just a losing battle.  And anyone who has lived and raised teens knows that typically doesn't go real well.  Even if the teens do it, it often doesn't set up for a mutual respectful adult relationship with your kids later.   He is trying to exert control where he should not have any.  You HAVE raised your kids Catholic and you have made a good faith effort to offer them mass and to continue in their faith.  They are reaching the age where they will run with it or not and it will be what it will be.  I am no longer Catholic FTR and I have zero regrets about it.

What age is confirmation done in your church?  My parents did require us to go through confirmation and then it was on us whether or not we attended mass after that.   Though, I wouldn't require it if it is done beyond middle school age.

[Drama Llama]

11 hours ago, Katy said:

Frankly I would refuse to include it if his point is that they must attend at a certain church at a certain time so he can monitor that remotely through, for example, a sister whose goal is to cause trouble.

Their faith needs to be driven by their faith, not by a legal agreement or the next church scandal (or an old one) combined with the stress of a mentally ill parent’s control will drive them away from any faith altogether. They’re almost past the education phase and into the personal practice phase anyway. His moral authority is more or less gone at this point.

You don’t live in a particularly rural area, so if a child starts refusing mass or anything else a judge will likely take the teenager’s side. Mostly because if things that have nothing to do with your family but because cause many teens end up in foster care over their lack of compliance with religious issues like sex, gender identity, and sexuality. 

So then we just never finalize?  We go to court and risk a judge making any decisions he wants?  And yes it would probably go my way on this particular small piece but there are a lot of important things  we need to negotiate.

[bolt.]

15 minutes ago, BandH said:

So then we just never finalize?  We go to court and risk a judge making any decisions he wants?  And yes it would probably go my way on this particular small piece but there are a lot of important things  we need to negotiate.

Maybe you go to court with the agreement nearly finalized, with various parts already 'agreed in principle' (possibly initialed in hard copy) and only the final "clauses of disagreement" brought to the judge's attention? Maybe even with two versions printed out (your preference to have no such religion clause, and his preference to have a 'raised Catholic' clause) to be arbitrated between.

A judge is not highly likely to overrule terms the two of you are already agreeable about in order to replace them with 'any decision' they want. (Although it is possible that that could happen.)

You can also have parts of the separation/divorce agreement done individually. Like just a 'custody agreement' and/or just a 'division of property' agreement -- Maybe you get those done, signed, and filed, leaving 'other terms' to finish up at a later time. (But you could just be content with those two documents and let him pursue you to get you to sign the extra terms he wants so badly.)

[Faith-manor]

Band, what does your lawyer recommend? I would not advise making up any agreement or language that your lawyer had not drawn up. 

[Drama Llama]

13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Band, what does your lawyer recommend? I would not advise making up any agreement or language that your lawyer had not drawn up. 

My attorney says bring him some ideas, and thanks in advance for the bajillion dollars and hour it will cost to turn this into a formal proposal for DH. 

 

[Rosie_0801]

@wintermom I don't want to ignore you, but I don't want to relive my family court experience either. It is a place that does not have to make the least bit sense if it doesn't want to. If I were to explain, you'd probably want to argue with me because your brain wouldn't want to believe. I almost don't believe what happened to dd and I, and I was there the whole time.

And it doesn't belong in B&H's thread.

 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, BandH said:

So then we just never finalize?  We go to court and risk a judge making any decisions he wants?  And yes it would probably go my way on this particular small piece but there are a lot of important things  we need to negotiate.

There are advantages to not finalising.

We were two years in the court system, and that gave my daughter two more years of growing up. Since I had to lose custody, better I lost at almost 10 than just turned 7.

It sucks for your sense of wellbeing, but, cost-benefit, would you be better off dragging it out as long as he'll let you?

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, BandH said:

My attorney says bring him some ideas, and thanks in advance for the bajillion dollars and hour it will cost to turn this into a formal proposal for DH. 

 

Sorry to hear that.

I just know that giving your ex what he wants isn't going to stop him at all. He is going to harass you, waste your time, cost you money to defend yourself, until the kids are adults. I am just so very sorry to you and your sons that he allowed to have ANY say in anything.

[Rosie_0801]

The vaguer things are, the quicker you get through the court room when you are hauled back.

[Not_a_Number]

Here's the thing. I think we're getting muddled with what the purpose of this is. 

There's the goal of satisfying him so that he doesn't haul you back to court. You can't do that. Last I checked, he doesn't even want this separation. Nothing you do will make him happy or make sure of that. As Rosie said above, you don't get to control this any more than he gets to control your household. It really, really sucks for you but there it is. 

Then there's the goal of actually getting him to feel like you're taking him seriously so that he cooperates with you. For that purpose, you should not be creating obligations for yourself -- you should be asking him what HE wants, and allowing those stipulations which YOU think is a good idea. I'd guess that if you asked him what he needed, he might make some suggestions, and many will be completely unreasonable and would require you to force your kids to go, which I would say you should refuse to include. But I do think that asking could be helpful in getting a good document, AS LONG AS you're sure you will be able to stand up to him and say no to the many, many unreasonable demands he's likely to come up with. 

[Drama Llama]

To me the goal is that we create a document that we can both agree on, that gives him the comfort of knowing his kids are doing what they need to do to be good Catholics (e.g. going to mass when there is an obligation, getting confirmed, going to confession once a year), and gives me the security of knowing exactly what I did and didn't promise.  And that lets us finalize the agreement, because there are other things that we urgently need to finalize.

[Not_a_Number]

In my humble opinion, your attitude should suffice to give anyone reasonable comfort. You've shown a lot of integrity and good will when it comes to raising them Catholic. 

The problem is that he isn't reasonable at all. 

[Heartstrings]

48 minutes ago, BandH said:

going to mass when there is an obligation, getting confirmed, going to confession once a year)

Have you presented him with that list? Does he have any edits?  I think that’s a good list.  

[Drama Llama]

54 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Have you presented him with that list? Does he have any edits?  I think that’s a good list.  

Not yet.  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

In my humble opinion, your attitude should suffice to give anyone reasonable comfort. You've shown a lot of integrity and good will when it comes to raising them Catholic. 

The problem is that he isn't reasonable at all. 

Right, he's not.  So, I want to know what a reasonable conservative Catholic would ask for or want in this situation. 

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

@wintermom I don't want to ignore you, but I don't want to relive my family court experience either. It is a place that does not have to make the least bit sense if it doesn't want to. If I were to explain, you'd probably want to argue with me because your brain wouldn't want to believe. I almost don't believe what happened to dd and I, and I was there the whole time.

And it doesn't belong in B&H's thread.

 

There's no need to go any further at all, Rosie. I'm so sorry you had such a bad experience.

[Faith-manor]

31 minutes ago, BandH said:

Right, he's not.  So, I want to know what a reasonable conservative Catholic would ask for or want in this situation. 

Band, I think of you as a reasonable conservative Catholic! On top of that, you are the mom, single parenting, being and doing everything. So with that in mind, knowing what activities and school obligations your children will have, what traveling you might want to do, and what kind of flexibility you need to make it all work, how about you sit down and write up the verbiage that is best, and then have your lawyer tweak that with a lot of legalese in language that would make it very very hard for him to make a case that you are not "raising the kids Catholic". I think your lawyer can come up with something along the lines of " Custodial parent will commit to regular church attendance with full discretion for sickness and unforseen life events as well as obligations that require the family to be out of town. Custodial parent will inform non custodial parent after confirmation takes place. Custodial parent will consult with parish priest once annually or at her discretion about the spiritual well being of the children." But I do not recommend you agree to anything concerning confession. That is so deeply personal for each individual, and your children are getting old enough that being compelled by decree to go to confession could have a devastating effect on their developing faith, and may in fact cause them to reject the practice all together. Teens just cannot and should not be arm twisted into things like that. Now that said, no priest worth his salt is going to ever inform dad that the boys haven't been to confession either, and I can tell you that no judge wants to interview your boys about it. I think your ex would be plum out of luck if he had a hissy fit because he wants to control this aspect of their religious life from afar. I think that given who he is, he is not going to agree to anything reasonable, but that doesn't mean you should offer him more. You could offer him sun, moon, and stars and have him refuse to sign or sign it and then make your life miserable. Since he wants to try to control you and make you miserable, offer him only what is reasonable to you so what is possibly enforced (and I don't think a court is going to listen to his whining about religious issues), is what you were willing to do to begin with or doing all along. Maybe your lawyer can figure out how to make it sound like you are making concessions when you aren't.

 

[Drama Llama]

10 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Band, I think of you as a reasonable conservative Catholic!

 

I'm definitely not conservative, either in my Catholicism or in my politics.  Maybe in my personal life.  

And obviously, my opinion is that he should just trust me!  So, I'm clearly biased.  I was hoping to hear from people without that bias.

[Drama Llama]

22 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Who is going to do the notifying? Parishes don't take attendance at mass. They usually define "in good standing" as meeting a threshold of financial contributions or asking for a waiver for financial hardship. Most people use automatic payments now, almost nobody is tossing in a preprinted envelop with your name on it. Are you going to have to send him a time-stamped geolocated photo every time you go to Mass?

Me.  If I sign something saying that I'll let him know if they miss more than X times, then I'd let him know if they miss more than X times, through whatever communication channel we're using at that time.   If it happened today, I'd tell his Dad, and ask his Dad to tell him.  

[QueenCat]

I would not list confirmation as a requirement. You don't know if down the road one of your kiddos will not want to be confirmed. That is something that should be their choice. 

[Drama Llama]

15 hours ago, bolt. said:

Maybe you go to court with the agreement nearly finalized, with various parts already 'agreed in principle' (possibly initialed in hard copy) and only the final "clauses of disagreement" brought to the judge's attention? Maybe even with two versions printed out (your preference to have no such religion clause, and his preference to have a 'raised Catholic' clause) to be arbitrated between.

A judge is not highly likely to overrule terms the two of you are already agreeable about in order to replace them with 'any decision' they want. (Although it is possible that that could happen.)

You can also have parts of the separation/divorce agreement done individually. Like just a 'custody agreement' and/or just a 'division of property' agreement -- Maybe you get those done, signed, and filed, leaving 'other terms' to finish up at a later time. (But you could just be content with those two documents and let him pursue you to get you to sign the extra terms he wants so badly.)

The Catholic thing is in our current custody agreement.  If I want to replace our custody agreement with a new custody agreement, which I do, I need to address it somehow.  

[chiguirre]

2 hours ago, BandH said:

Me.  If I sign something saying that I'll let him know if they miss more than X times, then I'd let him know if they miss more than X times, through whatever communication channel we're using at that time.   If it happened today, I'd tell his Dad, and ask his Dad to tell him.  

This strikes me as a recipe for disaster. He'll accuse you of lying, whether or not it's true. If one of your kids refuses to go, you'll be the snitch reporting them to their father. I don't think this is a problem you can fix. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by chiguirre

[Clemsondana]

22 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

This strikes me as a recipe for disaster. He'll accuse you of lying, whether or not it's true. If one of your kids refuses to go, you'll be the snitch reporting them to their father. I don't think this is a problem you can fix. 

My concern is that she'd have to justify a decision.  Kid stayed home with an injury?  They could have gone on crutches...but they were up all night in the ER in pain and needed to sleep...but they could sleep in the afternoon.  Miss to watch kids for neighbor who had and emergency and needed to take spouse to the ER?  The kids could have gone too...but I couldn't manage 3 random kids in church...but our kids went to church...but our kids were used to it, and I didn't have car seats...but you could have planned better...   It just feels like it opens everything for debate, but life decisions have to be made in the moment and no decision is perfect.  It seems like it could just as easily wind them up in court because he doesn't feel like the reasons are valid.  

[Terabith]

I think I would say something like:  Kids will attend mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation 85% of the time, confession a minimum of once a year, and a course of religious education that prepares them for the opportunity for confirmation, through age 14 (or whatever the age of confirmation is in your area).  

 

[bolt.]

2 hours ago, BandH said:

The Catholic thing is in our current custody agreement.  If I want to replace our custody agreement with a new custody agreement, which I do, I need to address it somehow.  

You can also just leave the phrase in the new document as-is, and accomplish your goal of getting the new document signed. Your goal in changing the document is to reduce/eliminate his "What exactly is a Catholic upbringing?" quibbling -- which annoys you and/or makes you doubt yourself and/or makes you feel pressure to change your behaviour. Is it possible that when he expresses that he thinks more/other things are 'mandatory for you' because they are 'Catholic to him' -- you experience discomfort in disagreeing about that, and wonder if you are legally obligated to abide by his definitions instead of yours.

It sounds like you would prefer new wording because it reduces not the quibbling itself, but (perhaps?) because it would make you doubt yourself less if you could look at specific terms with yes-no answers, instead of having to make a judgement call and stand up to quibbling on confidence alone. Is it that having specifics to check would reduce your inner turmoil when he tries to speak to this topic in the future?

The thing is, the specifics might help you in that way... but they may genuinely harm you (and the kids) in other ways.

I'm not sure adding specifics is a wise or healthy way for you to reduce the consternation he causes you when he questions whether you are honourably abiding by the agreement you made. Is there any way you can just build up your confidence to the point where when he quibbles you can just say, "Priest and I both agree that I am raising them Catholic in a correct way. Your disagreement is noted, but it is not going to change my choices."

[bolt.]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think I would say something like:  Kids will attend mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation 85% of the time, confession a minimum of once a year, and a course of religious education that prepares them for the opportunity for confirmation, through age 14 (or whatever the age of confirmation is in your area).  

 

That's not great for legal wording. If that's the general meaning B&H wants, legally it should read like:

"Kids will have the opportunity to attend mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation at least 85% of the time. Kids will be provided opportunities to attend confession on a yearly basis, or more often. Kids will be registered, if it is reasonably possible, in a course of religious education that prepares them for the opportunity for confirmation, until they reach the age of 14."

The legal wording of "Kids will attend" creates a legal obligation. It means that if "kids" do not "attend" any of these things for any reason at all (beyond the 85% threshold for the first category of things) B&H will have *broken the law*. Who else do you know that lives in a country where it is against the law for parents if teenagers don't do these kinds of religious things? Like, what if they get cancer and are bed-bound for 6 months? Is that against the law? What if the catholic church stops offering the programs in that area -- does she have to move???

It is enough for her to obligate herself to "make reasonable efforts" or "provide opportunities" (a big obligation, but reasonable in a way) -- to obligate herself that they point-blank "will attend" is bizarre.

[Moonhawk]

3 hours ago, BandH said:

Me.  If I sign something saying that I'll let him know if they miss more than X times, then I'd let him know if they miss more than X times, through whatever communication channel we're using at that time.   If it happened today, I'd tell his Dad, and ask his Dad to tell him.  

(I'm not wading into the "should you do this" side of things, just the "how to do this" approach)

So, instead of having to self-report whenever you feel like you have missed X amount in a random amount of time, could you instead say something like "Mass at least 40 (42? 45?) sundays of the year, to allow for illness and other serious reasons." ? That way, say in February everyone gets a case of sniffles right after another, and you miss 5 weeks in a row, you don't have to report that you've missed 50% of Masses for the year so far, or whatever. Instead, just one report at the end of the year, and no justifications/explanations or worrying about his reaction if you have a rough few weeks.

Also, I'd be very careful about listing reasons they could miss Mass. Growing up, there was no reason for me to miss Mass other than illness. If I was traveling for school, or a performance, or a game, I was still expected to attend Mass, it wasn't even a question that I would figure it out. (And I did not go to a Catholic high school.) So, I would stick to the official language of the church, which is something like "due to illness or other serious reasons." That way, you don't give him the idea to disallow your judgement calls -- I don't want to put a list in front of him of allowable reasons you could miss, just for him to say, "I wouldn't agree to them missing for xyz!" And then your hands are tied. So leaving the reasons to miss to just the official language and allowing for your judgement in realtime. (eta: or just not say anything about reasons at all, not even the Church's wording)

If I'm a conservative Catholic, looking to enforce it in an agreement, and Mass has already been handled, confession is going to be my next bone to pick at. A conservative Catholic would probably want to encode at least once a month. 

Re confession and confirmation, maybe saying something like "children have the ability and encouragement to receive other sacraments whenever they request and the set opportunity to do so at least 4 times a year." That way confirmation is not singled out as something you must do -- since you can't force it anyway -- and confession doesn't become another obligation on a certain schedule.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Moonhawk

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, BandH said:

I'm definitely not conservative, either in my Catholicism or in my politics.  Maybe in my personal life.  

And obviously, my opinion is that he should just trust me!  So, I'm clearly biased.  I was hoping to hear from people without that bias.

Sorry. It is really hard for any of us here to set the bias aside because we know what he has done. 

Let me see if I can think of a hypothetical without the bias.

A father is being sent to the International Space Station for one year. His ex wife will have sole custody of the children, every inch of ultimate authority. He will have a once per week call from space. He wants to make sure that during this period, his children are still being exposed to and having opportunity to practice his faith. So what should that document say that would be reasonable, potentially enforceable, and not a burden on his children at their current stage of development.

1. Custodial parent will provide for transportation for weekly mass but with discretion for reasonable absences. Then if he argues about what is reasonable, his lawyer and yours can remind him that he doesn't get to make that judgment call.

2. Children will be allowed access to and transportation for counsel from parish priest or licensed counselor through the parish as the children request.

3. Children will be allowed to become confirmed at the appropriate time if they so choose, and non custodial parent will be informed when this happens, picture provided if photography is allowed.

4. Children will be provided transportation, on their request, for youth related church activities with discretion of custodial parent as pertains to work and school schedules. Schedules will not be provided as this is cumbersome to custodial parent. If children request that pictures of them participating in these events be provided to non custodial parent, custodial parent will forward by email through a neutral party with the provision that non custodial parent will NOT share these images on social media.

5. Non custodial parent will respect his children's privacy and need for gentle guidance by not inquiring about confession or pressuring the children to choose confirmation. Non custodial parent will forfeit the right to numbers 1-4 if he violates this most important 5th provision.

Maybe something about Paternal grandfather being allowed to provide guidance about faith matters that are not serious enough to warrant talking to a priest. Possibly that would put his mind at ease a little. It isn't exactly enforceable, but you already allow Pops a ton of access to the kids anyway. Making it formalized might help ex swallow the bitter pill. I don't know though.

And this might be bunk! I am just trying to come up with something that doesn't have the bias which is insanely hard for all of us here because after all you and the kids have been through, we want to have your back, and the kids' backs, not his.

[Jaybee]

I would not put a specific number or percentage on the attendance.

ETA: Because if there were any kind of extended illness or any unforeseen anything, you might be putting yourself into an untenable situation.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Jaybee

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

You can also just leave the phrase in the new document as-is, and accomplish your goal of getting the new document signed. Your goal in changing the document is to reduce/eliminate his "What exactly is a Catholic upbringing?" quibbling -- which annoys you and/or makes you doubt yourself and/or makes you feel pressure to change your behaviour. Is it possible that when he expresses that he thinks more/other things are 'mandatory for you' because they are 'Catholic to him' -- you experience discomfort in disagreeing about that, and wonder if you are legally obligated to abide by his definitions instead of yours.

It sounds like you would prefer new wording because it reduces not the quibbling itself, but (perhaps?) because it would make you doubt yourself less if you could look at specific terms with yes-no answers, instead of having to make a judgement call and stand up to quibbling on confidence alone. Is it that having specifics to check would reduce your inner turmoil when he tries to speak to this topic in the future?

The thing is, the specifics might help you in that way... but they may genuinely harm you (and the kids) in other ways.

I'm not sure adding specifics is a wise or healthy way for you to reduce the consternation he causes you when he questions whether you are honourably abiding by the agreement you made. Is there any way you can just build up your confidence to the point where when he quibbles you can just say, "Priest and I both agree that I am raising them Catholic in a correct way. Your disagreement is noted, but it is not going to change my choices."

I am not annoyed, and it’s not quibbling.  It costs me hundreds of dollars each time my attorney has to respond.  Money that could be spent feeding and clothing his children.  

My hope is that by limiting the agreement to mass, I can simply respond to other complaints by saying that I only committed to mass.  I will do more than that, but what I do in the privacy of my home is my business.  
 

 

[freesia]

3 minutes ago, BandH said:

I am not annoyed, and it’s not quibbling.  It costs me hundreds of dollars each time my attorney has to respond.  Money that could be spent feeding and clothing his children.  

My hope is that by limiting the agreement to mass, I can simply respond to other complaints by saying that I only committed to mass.  I will do more than that, but what I do in the privacy of my home is my business.  
 

 

So, with this clarification, maybe a more direct way to state what  you are asking is--Do we think mass attendance would be enough to be considered raising a child Catholic by an every Sunday mass attender?

[JennyD]

21 hours ago, BandH said:

My attorney says bring him some ideas, and thanks in advance for the bajillion dollars and hour it will cost to turn this into a formal proposal for DH. 

 

For what it's worth, I would first ask your attorney the following questions:

(1) My STBX struggles with mental health and I fully expect that he will continue to file contempt motions against me, especially with respect to the children's religious upbringings.  Given that, in your experience, what sort of language would be best to include in the final parenting plan?  Should I be very specific or keep it vague?  

(2) In your experience, how do judges in this jurisdiction handle post-dissolution disagreements over religion clauses in parenting plans? Do they ever enforce them, and if so, when?

(3) My kids are teens and while i don't expect them to push back on going to Mass, etc., obviously you never know.  How worried should I be about including something in the parenting plan that ultimately I can't/won't enforce as my children get older?

(4) Is there anything else we can do to make it more difficult for my STBX to harass me through the legal system in the coming years?

Best of luck to you, OP.  I am so sorry that you and your kids are going through this.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by JennyD