Can we ponder cultural identity in the US again?

[saraha]

@Carrie12345 thank you for this thread. It gave me the courage to reach out to the only member I have info for on my dads side. He died when I was 13 and my mom instantly moved us away from his family so I haven’t seen any of my dads side since his funeral in 1990. My mom tried to wipe all traces of them away but my aunt faithfully sent us cards and had always lived in the same house so exchanged contact info after we became adults but have never made the trip to see her in person. 
She was ecstatic to hear from me and we scheduled a call for this evening.

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

The ideas didn't all originate on US soil, but they took root and spread and became an example for the world.

I'm not going to get into which specific ideas and ideals, because that will set off a whole debate that I don't think this thread needs.  I do know a lot of the world looks to the US in a lot of ways.  We are not a "nothing" in terms of ideas in the world.

Thinking more, maybe this goes with what EKS said earlier.  Why do I feel like something needs to be unique to feel like part of culture? 
 

Potatoes are part of Irish culture but they originated in the Americas.  Same with tomatoes and Italy.  So why do we think those “count” for them culturally  but nothing “counts” for us? 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, Eos said:

I think the current emphasis is a point in time not a destination.  Defining identities that have traditionally been hidden, marginalized, and hurt will  let our common humanity shine more clearly.  Getting to do the defining by and of themselves in this era will bring balance to our future when I very much hope our common humanity will be celebrated.

Right, but that's why I think of what's happening now as an important balancing time to how it's been until recently.  

True. Today is different in many ways. But a point I made in an assignment was that “before” still had racial and cultural diversity present. Light skinned people melted. Plenty of POC were here and did not/could not “melt”, by choice, by exclusion, or by appearance. That is changing. And one of the questions posed to me was what happens to those cultures in the future? Do they get lost? The thought makes me sad, while also being glad for choices.

[Carrie12345]

8 minutes ago, saraha said:

@Carrie12345 thank you for this thread. It gave me the courage to reach out to the only member I have info for on my dads side. He died when I was 13 and my mom instantly moved us away from his family so I haven’t seen any of my dads side since his funeral in 1990. My mom tried to wipe all traces of them away but my aunt faithfully sent us cards and had always lived in the same house so exchanged contact info after we became adults but have never made the trip to see her in person. 
She was ecstatic to hear from me and we scheduled a call for this evening.

How exciting!!! 

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Like I mentioned, I’m deeply influenced by Italian and Jewish culture, despite having no ancestral ties.  Not so deeply that I would claim them as my cultural identity though. Maybe a sort of social identity.

If you're looking for words for this, you could consider "Jewish and Italian influence," which does not assume biological heritage.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well, just to be clear for myself, I’m not attached to needing a EUROPEAN culture. It’s just all I genetically have. 4 of my kids have Middle Eastern ancestry, but they’re no more connected to it than I am to the Swedes.

(To top it off, my g-gmother was a Swede raised in Finland, so even that’s disjointed, lol. My distant relatives are still in Finland and send their kids to English-specific schools. 🤷‍♀️)

Maybe we are related!  My great grandfather came to the US with his Swedish name, and I had always hear from Sweden.  It wasn't until I was an adult and another family in town had relatives from their country of origin, Finland, visiting and those relatives said "Oh, we know your relatives in Finland" that I found out that my greath grandfather was a Swede from Finland.  

[Bootsie]

51 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

True. Today is different in many ways. But a point I made in an assignment was that “before” still had racial and cultural diversity present. Light skinned people melted. Plenty of POC were here and did not/could not “melt”, by choice, by exclusion, or by appearance. That is changing. And one of the questions posed to me was what happens to those cultures in the future? Do they get lost? The thought makes me sad, while also being glad for choices.

The Creole culture is a melting which includes people who were not light skinned.  

[Carrie12345]

9 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Maybe we are related!  My great grandfather came to the US with his Swedish name, and I had always hear from Sweden.  It wasn't until I was an adult and another family in town had relatives from their country of origin, Finland, visiting and those relatives said "Oh, we know your relatives in Finland" that I found out that my greath grandfather was a Swede from Finland.  

Maybe! Attempting to learn how to trace Scandinavian names was a terrible experience for me, lol. I’m thinking the odds are high that we’re both Johanssons?

[Carrie12345]

7 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

The Creole culture is a melting which includes people who were not light skinned.  

Ah, but Creole still carries distinct elements from combined roots, a recognized linguistic difference, and is considered a specific culture by most in it, no?  
 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, scholastica said:

There’s a huge gulf between patriotism and nationalism. Those people are nationalists. Patriots appreciate their country for what it is and what it’s given them, but recognize it’s not perfect nor is it superior in all ways to other countries.

I agree but this term - “patriotism” - has been co-opted to mean something different from what it has meant to me in the past. Or maybe I was just oblivious to the nationalists posing as “patriots”. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Ah, but Creole still carries distinct elements from combined roots, a recognized linguistic difference, and is considered a specific culture by most in it, no?  
 

I am not sure what all of this means or implies and I think the term "Creole" has been used differently in different parts of the world.  In Louisiana people with diffferent languages, foods, traditions, and skin tones came together in a location, often for much different reasons; they had different backgrounds and diffferent stories of how they arrived in the new location.  Arriving they were Spanish, or African, or French; their children born in Louisiana were Creole.  A common thread for many of the people was Catholic religion, but even that got mixed with voodoo.  The Creoles eat their jambalaya and no one refers to it as their great, great grandmother's paella from Spain or how it has the spices of Native American ancestors.  It is more of traces, flavors, accents of the ancestor's cultures exist but comingled with that of others without one of the prexisiting cultures dominating.  One group did not join a culture, but a new cutlture was formed.  A Creole language developed, but I am not sure what percentage of people who  have considered themselves  Creoles actually used the Creole language.

[chiguirre]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Meanwhile, I have no personal connection to a “non-American” ancestral culture as an Irish-British-German-French-Swedish-Indigenous Canadian-Broadly Northwestern European-dash of Southern European- pinch of Eastern European- American. Which is fine when I am not asked to discuss my cultural identity! When I am, I’m at a loss.

You're describing a WASP (White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant) which is very much a cultural group. If you're not one, you'd recognize them. If you are one, it's just the dominant culture.

(Sorry if someone has already posted. I just started the thread and have to run, but I thought I'd throw this out since you'll be able to find reading material about this culture and see if it resonates for you to claim as yours for your classes.)

[lewelma]

Here in NZ, we have two separate words for what you are trying to sort out.  I see you saying 'American' is both the dominant culture and a term that refers to everyone (thus it negates differences and implies that the dominant culture = American).  

Kiwi - All New Zealanders will refer to themselves as Kiwis. This term refers to location on these 2 islands. But it also is pride in our environment, native flora and fauna, sports teams, safety record, and the fact that we punch above our weight internationally. 

Pākehā - this is the dominate 'white' culture. It focus on the individual. You can own land individually, you can make decisions individually, your individuality matters. 

Māori - this is the indigenous culture. It focuses on the collective. Land is owned collectively, decisions are made collectively, when you introduce yourself you describe the land you connect to, then your tribe, then your family, and only at the end do you give your name. You are embedded in a web of relationships - your whakapapa.

Then we have the other ethnicities - pacific islanders, chinese (who settled here in 1840s), indians, and numerous minority ethnicities.

It seems to me that you are embarrassed to call yourself  'American' because it implies the dominant culture = all americans, and this is because you have only one word. It also aligns you with nationalists who believe that the dominant culture should be the only culture of America and that the others are not American.  So I see your dilemma.

Edited February 9, 2023 by lewelma

[Carrie12345]

23 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

You're describing a WASP (White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant) which is very much a cultural group. If you're not one, you'd recognize them. If you are one, it's just the dominant culture.

(Sorry if someone has already posted. I just started the thread and have to run, but I thought I'd throw this out since you'll be able to find reading material about this culture and see if it resonates for you to claim as yours for your classes.)

I thought those were people with money?

[Carrie12345]

24 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that you are embarrassed to call yourself  'American' because it implies the dominant culture = all americans, and this is because you have only one word. It also aligns you with nationalists who believe that the dominant culture should be the only culture of America and that the others are not American.  So I see your dilemma.

Your whole post is good, but I didn’t want the end to get lost at the bottom of a quote.

Embarrassment isn’t the right word, but there is a discomfort, yes.

[vonfirmath]

29 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

You're describing a WASP (White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant) which is very much a cultural group. If you're not one, you'd recognize them. If you are one, it's just the dominant culture.

(Sorry if someone has already posted. I just started the thread and have to run, but I thought I'd throw this out since you'll be able to find reading material about this culture and see if it resonates for you to claim as yours for your classes.)

Honestly I've only ever heard WASP used in a negative manner so I don't think I have any interest in claiming it as a cultural identity.

 

[lewelma]

6 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Your whole post is good, but I didn’t want the end to get lost at the bottom of a quote.

Embarrassment isn’t the right word, but there is a discomfort, yes.

It took me some time to really think about the different values/believes between kiwi and pākehā, which was a good exercise for me.  Can you differentiate between what all Americans share vs what the dominant culture shares? 

[Carrie12345]

5 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It took me some time to really think about the different values/believes between kiwi and pākehā, which was a good exercise for me.  Can you differentiate between what all Americans share vs what the dominant culture shares? 

Well dang with the good question! That’s a doozy I’ll need some time with!

[chiguirre]

24 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I thought those were people with money?

 

19 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Honestly I've only ever heard WASP used in a negative manner so I don't think I have any interest in claiming it as a cultural identity.

 

Nope, they don't necessarily have a lot of money, although at one point, almost all rich people were WASPs or pretended to be. I'd agree that WASP isn't a super nice acronym, but it is common and easier to google than White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant. At one time this was the American ideal and if you poke around in the history of the beginning of the 20th century you'll find lots of people talking about Anglo-Saxon and "Nordic" stock and demeaning everyone else who wasn't. But that doesn't mean every person who is part of that culture shares (or shared) that view, and although that colors our current perceptions of WASPs, they have a particular culture with lots of positive aspects that inspire pride. Just because Madison Grant and VDare claim this identity does not mean that every other person who claims it is tarred with their racist brush. Every group has its jackasses, it's just that the dominant group's jackasses get more airtime.

ETA: I've got to post and dash again, sorry.

Edited February 9, 2023 by chiguirre

[Farrar]

I'm a white American of almost entirely English and northern European ancestry. My roots are all in the American south. As far as I can tell, none of the main lines of my family arrived in this country after about 1820 and on my mother's side, most of them seem to have arrived before the founding of the United States.

When I first got to New England for college, I was genuinely floored by how connected many white New York/New Englanders felt with their ancestry. They would say things about how they were Italian, Irish, Portuguese, German, Polish, etc. I was really raised to think in that very American south way that white people were white people, end stop. That was a big identity paradigm shift for me -- not just in terms of my awareness of ethnicity, but also in terms of how I thought about America.

On some level, I think my ancestry is the default assumption for a lot of people - both in groups and out groups - when we picture "generic" America. But I think that's crap. I do think that in a nation this diverse that there isn't a default and that we need to break ourselves from thinking of it in those terms. It's one culture among many and it doesn't define the "default" American experience any more than others. 

I do think there are a bunch of shared elements to Americans. Things at the center of our Venn diagram of American cultures could be things like consumer culture and sugar consumption and immigration stories and fried foods and TV and public schools. American flags, tearing up at the idea of freedom even if it's a bit messed up, cars and driving, weapons galore, big things - big mountains, big sodas, big servings, big people, big McMansions, big ideas.

[Rosie_0801]

7 hours ago, EKS said:

It's possible that this feeling that "culture" equates to that which makes you different from the dominant culture is peculiar to the United States.

It's not, but I don't think this same conversation would happen this way if it was anyone else having it. 

[lewelma]

31 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well dang with the good question! That’s a doozy I’ll need some time with!

Yes, it took me some time. I thought about including democracy, but the Māori are keen to be semi-sovereign, so don't support the currently parlimentary system. I considered putting in Christianity, but NZ has become much more non-religious and a lot of Māori are beginning to see their christian faith as an act of colonialism, so that was out. Basically, it was a really good thing for me to think about, because yes, all New Zealanders would call themselves kiwis, but pākehā is the standard term for white people with white culture (mostly a British offshoot, but a subset because only lower-middle class British really came here). It was a very useful thing to try to differentiate.

Edited February 9, 2023 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I asked my ds and he also thought that kiwis are 1) 'can do', and 2) 'not above yourself'. These were more attitudinal than mine. Mine were more pride in xxx.

I thought those were nice additions that might help you with trying to do it for America.

ETA: We just came up with another that is a part of kiwi culture - our anti nuclear stance. No nuclear weapons, power plants, or submarines. This is a cultural thing that came from the testing of nuclear weapons in the Pacific by northern hemisphere countries. So polluting areas that NZ considers under its protection. So kind of an anti-colonial thing. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by lewelma

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Yes, it took me some time. I thought about including democracy, but the Māori are keen to be semi-sovereign, so don't support the currently parlimentary system. I considered putting in Christianity, but NZ has become much more non-religious and a lot of Māori are beginning to see their christian faith as an act of colonialism, so that was out. Basically, it was a really good thing for me to think about, because yes, all New Zealanders would call themselves kiwis, but pākehā is the standard term for white people with white culture (mostly a British offshoot, but a subset because only lower-middle class British really came here). It was a very useful thing to try to differentiate.

It was these thoughts that surprised me about how important Christianity to Torres Strait Islander culture.
Well, cultures are made of people and people can make all kinds of things work.

[Corraleno]

I think one of the issues that makes the whole concept of "cultural identity" problematic is that it reifies "culture" as noun — a thing that people have — rather than a verb — thinking and behaving in certain ways that are conditioned by the environments in which a person is born/raised/educated/lives/works.

What are considered ideal/acceptable/unacceptable thoughts and behavior can be different in each of those environments, and I suspect that how closely those beliefs align in all of those environments — and how well they match up with an individual personality — has a lot to do with whether a person feels that they have a specific "cultural identity."

So, someone who is born and raised in the Bronx/rural Texas/coastal Maine/etc., whose family has been in that area for generations, whose ethnic background is the dominant one in that area, whose personality/personal beliefs match those that are dominant in that area, etc., is more likely to feel that is a big part of their identity. But for me, having grown up in an environment where the overall values, beliefs, and behaviors were not a good match for me and having lived in multiple states and countries, considerations like geography, ethnicity, and "local culture" have very little to do with my sense of identity. 

That doesn't mean that I don't recognize the level of privilege that comes from people with certain cultural identities assuming that I share their identity, but I think there's a difference between appearing to be part of the "dominant culture" and actually identifying with that culture. And I think that's where some of the confusion comes from.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Corraleno

[Wheres Toto]

11 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

(Other perspectives welcome. My musings are American-centric though.)

3 of my classes, Communications, Social Work, and, of course, Cultural Anthropology, are all converging on the topic of culture right now. Awareness, context, openness, biases, etc.  All important stuff. But there’s a lot of focus on pondering our own cultural identities. I’ve mentioned in a past thread that I don’t feel connected to any cultural identity, and some responses were along the lines of American being a valid identity. Which I struggle to wrap my head around, because I interact with plenty of Americans who most definitely identify much more specifically than that.

The strongest other-than-American tie I have to my ancestry is 2 recipes from a great-grandmother who passed long before I was born. The way I was raised was “suburban North Jersean white girl”, which is heavily influenced by Italian and Jewish culture, neither of which are in my family tree. Plus I’m almost 18 years out of that environment, with no close family left in it. My mom and sisters have turned more southern and I’ve quieted myself down a little bit to fit my community, lol.

Most of my children are bigger mutts than I am. Their biggest ancestral tie is equivalent to my 2 recipies. And they very much reject a NJ identity, as some moved very young and others were born here, regardless of hundreds of years of NNJ ancestry.

Language - always English. Beliefs - raised Protestant, non-believer. Rituals - food-focused; any, but heavy on taylorhameggandchees, saltpepperketchup, on a bagel. And pasta. Also SuperBowl snacks and green food coloring for St. Patty’s Day. Generic, generic, generic.

Anyway, identifying as American, in the US, feels icky to me. I believe it comes off as ignoring the cultural diversity of Americans. You’re American? I’m American. It’s all the same!  
But it isn’t.

The topic of MY cultural identity doesn’t come up IRL. I’m clearly a generic white lady in 99.9% of contexts.  But it is coming up in academic contexts, and will likely continue to, studying sociology and social work. (With a lot of diversity in the student body.)

So how would you approach this if you are or could imagine yourself as a generic white lady in the US?  

If you’re not, what are your thoughts on claiming “American”? Is that not equivalent to saying THIS is what “real” American looks like, when it certainly is not?

You and I seem to share a common culture, except I'm still a Jersey Girl.  🙂   I can definitely see your dilemma.    I would have a hard time really identifying a culture identity myself.  

My oldest dd had to do a report for school on her ancestry.   I'm Irish-Swedish-German on my moms side.  Super Irish last name so that is part of their identity, but the closest ancestor was Swedish so a lot of Swedish meatballs.  Plus mom's generation on that side seems to identify a lot with growing up in Jersey City.   I'm English on my dad's side but there was never much talk about that in the way mom's family talked about being Irish and Swedish.   Dd has Italian and Welsh on her dad's side.   So she's Irish-Swedish-German-English-Italian-Welsh.   What should she pick to do her report about?   I think she ended up doing Italian just because.  

[Spy Car]

I remember some years ago getting a call from my (red headed) brother, who was quite excited to tell me that "I think we are part African?"

Which seemed somewhat unlikely, but I was surely open to some diversification of the family tree, so I asked about what had triggered this supposition?

Turns out we had an ancestor (a woman) who long ago lived in New Orleans and who was described on a document he'd been reviewing as "Creole." He assumed Creole meant at least part African.

After digging in further, he was a bit crushed to learn from a cousin (who was a genealogist by career) that she was "merely" French. 

Still, "French," added a touch of diversity into a pretty relentlessly Anglo/Saxon/German heritage on both sides of my family.

But for a minute there...

Bill

Edited February 9, 2023 by Spy Car

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It's not, but I don't think this same conversation would happen this way if it was anyone else having it. 

Interesting.  Thank you!

[Carrie12345]

@Corraleno Yes! Colloquially, I think we do tend to frame it as having. It’s not the same in class studies, but we’re asked to bring our experience into it, which jumbles things up for me.

Also, your comment about appearing is true.  
DD gets mistaken for Latina by quite a few Latinx patients, primarily in the summer. They get disappointed when she can’t speak Spanish, but her skin tone came from Syrian DNA and she still only knows English!   
(Not that either of those are dominant, but ykwim.)

[Carrie12345]

I don’t know whether I’m going to go to bed in 10 minutes or 3 hours, but I wanted to make sure I said thanks for all the input and perspectives! This has been a great way to spend my sick in bed day, and I’m going to keep these things in mind as they continue to come up in classes.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Honestly I've only ever heard WASP used in a negative manner so I don't think I have any interest in claiming it as a cultural identity.

 

In addition, even for those of us whose heritage is white, anglo-saxon, and protestant, that doesn't really fit modern situations where we intermarry, explore spirituality outside of Christianity, and engage in various other cross-cultural immersions far beyond just tasting the food.

My kids are not white, nor anglo, nor saxon, and one of them doesn't consider herself a Christian.  Even if they are being raised by a WASPy parent in a WASPy neighborhood, WASP doesn't work as a name for my family's culture.

[Terabith]

My 23 and me says that I am greater than 98% Irish/ British Isles. Also, both my mother and father's sides of the family have done extensive genealogy, and both sides were in the "United States" well before the Revolution.  So both sides immigrated and then remained shockingly insular for many, many generations.  But....while we're all so pale that if the men took their shirts off, people would be blinded, there's no real Irish/ British culture or awareness there.  There are no recipes or traditions or anything.  

My father is from New Jersey.  My mother is from Arkabutla, Mississippi and then Memphis.  I grew up in West Tennessee, so I guess my culture could be considered Southern.  And I do like sweet tea!  But most of my life has been spent feeling at odds in my region.  I never identified as southern.  I never particularly liked the South.  I am not sure that really defines my culture either.  

WASP might be the most accurate cultural descriptor.  Or....educator?  My father was a college professor and my mother taught Latin.  Her mother taught history, and her mother before her taught elementary school.  I think probably like a previous poster that I have more in common with the arugula belt than my heritage or region, though I've never quite had the wealth or the right.....connections?  Clothing?  Attitudes?  To unironically shop at Whole Foods.  My current town does not even have a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's. 

Honestly, while I don't have an autism diagnosis, and I don't think I am technically autistic, that might not be a terribly inaccurate cultural signifier.  Our family is definitely neurodivergent, and I have spent a huge percentage of my life thinking about unspoken rules and expectations and studying the people around me the way an anthropologist from Mars might.   

[Carrie12345]

35 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, while I don't have an autism diagnosis, and I don't think I am technically autistic, that might not be a terribly inaccurate cultural signifier.  Our family is definitely neurodivergent, and I have spent a huge percentage of my life thinking about unspoken rules and expectations and studying the people around me the way an anthropologist from Mars might.   

We only have 1 official ASD dx in our family, but plenty of other neuro stuffs. So much of my childhood was studying how people peopled. Dh calls my stuffs diet autism. But the more I learn, the more I think I’m sometimes just highly gifted at masking. I’m also sometimes horrible at it, lol.

[vonfirmath]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

@Corraleno Yes! Colloquially, I think we do tend to frame it as having. It’s not the same in class studies, but we’re asked to bring our experience into it, which jumbles things up for me.

Also, your comment about appearing is true.  
DD gets mistaken for Latina by quite a few Latinx patients, primarily in the summer. They get disappointed when she can’t speak Spanish, but her skin tone came from Syrian DNA and she still only knows English!   
(Not that either of those are dominant, but ykwim.)

Laugh -- My sister has three kids and two of them have been mistaken for Hispanic. No idea where that came from.

Edited February 10, 2023 by vonfirmath

[kbutton]

 

21 hours ago, saraha said:

@Carrie12345 thank you for this thread. It gave me the courage to reach out to the only member I have info for on my dads side. He died when I was 13 and my mom instantly moved us away from his family so I haven’t seen any of my dads side since his funeral in 1990. My mom tried to wipe all traces of them away but my aunt faithfully sent us cards and had always lived in the same house so exchanged contact info after we became adults but have never made the trip to see her in person. 
She was ecstatic to hear from me and we scheduled a call for this evening.

Someone in my larger extended family was cut off from her father's side very young via divorce. I think he was a problematic person in a fairly normal family. Her grandmother made sure her cousins knew about her, and when she went looking for one 60+ years later, he was ecstatic to know her. 

And that's not the only happy story like this I know. 

I hope you have a great time getting to know them!

[Sneezyone]

20 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Your whole post is good, but I didn’t want the end to get lost at the bottom of a quote.

Embarrassment isn’t the right word, but there is a discomfort, yes.

I only ever feel truly American when I’m outside of America. 

[Amira]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I only ever feel truly American when I’m outside of America. 

This is exactly what I have been thinking while I've been reading this thread.

[KungFuPanda]

I’ll bet if you lived abroad for a while an American identity would solidify for you. It’s hard to pin any significance on your default “normal” setting until you’re in a place that’s not home. 

[Katy]

14 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ll bet if you lived abroad for a while an American identity would solidify for you. It’s hard to pin any significance on your default “normal” setting until you’re in a place that’s not home. 

I agree with this, but also living in different regions of the country tend to make you more aware of regional differences too.

[Carrie12345]

15 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I only ever feel truly American when I’m outside of America. 

 

12 hours ago, Amira said:

This is exactly what I have been thinking while I've been reading this thread.

I’m very confident that’s true!

7 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ll bet if you lived abroad for a while an American identity would solidify for you. It’s hard to pin any significance on your default “normal” setting until you’re in a place that’s not home. 

Yup.  
But that isn’t going to happen. I don’t know if I’m ever going to even travel outside the US, except to maybe Mexican tourist destinations.  Dh has a fear of flying over oceans, and I find traveling stressful.

The context I operate within is just a somewhat diverse corner of the US.

I may be starting to get to the “issue”. So much of this line of study is geared towards openness and sharing.  And, as a “receiver”, that’s awesome.  I have loved having people share their stories and customs AND FOOD with me throughout my whole life. But I’ve never had much (consciously) to share. There is nothing interesting about my roots. Though my Swedish meatballs DO tend to be a hit. 😉 

Even modernly, my mom doesn’t live like her parents did. I don’t live as my parents did. My kids don’t live as I did.  Except for those damn ever present meatballs.

[Wheres Toto]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

The context I operate within is just a somewhat diverse corner of the US.

I think this is part of the issue for me when I think about this.  Where we live is extremely diverse.   We regularly see people from all over the world, some who have been here for generations but it's also not uncommon to know first or second generation immigrants around here.   When talking about culture, there is definitely an impression that their culture is much more interesting and special than our basic, generic American mutt white mom.  

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

I may be starting to get to the “issue”. So much of this line of study is geared towards openness and sharing.  And, as a “receiver”, that’s awesome.  I have loved having people share their stories and customs AND FOOD with me throughout my whole life. But I’ve never had much (consciously) to share. There is nothing interesting about my roots. Though my Swedish meatballs DO tend to be a hit. 😉 

Even modernly, my mom doesn’t live like her parents did. I don’t live as my parents did. My kids don’t live as I did.  Except for those damn ever present meatballs.

What specifically is "culture".  Does it mean that we live life like previous generations?  I think that the fact that life today is different than life for our parents or grandparents is not unique to the US.  

I think one of the issues that comes up when you begin to discuss "US culture" is that you are talking about a huge area.  If, I have people visiting from other countries, I would expose them to eating crayfish and alligator.  If my friend who lives in Seattle had people visiting she would serve salmon (the only salmon I had growing up was from a can; we didn't get fresh salmon).  My friend in Maine would serve lobster (which I never had until I was an adult).  If you got to Alsace the food is different than in other parts of France.  If you go to Vienna, the food is different than in western Austria.  The US is a much larger area, each part with its own local resources.  

[chiguirre]

2 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

I think this is part of the issue for me when I think about this.  Where we live is extremely diverse.   We regularly see people from all over the world, some who have been here for generations but it's also not uncommon to know first or second generation immigrants around here.   When talking about culture, there is definitely an impression that their culture is much more interesting and special than our basic, generic American mutt white mom.  

But most of those "interesting" people are eating turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing and pumpkin pie on Thanksgiving. That's your contribution. Then there's chocolate chip cookies, root beer, and PB&J (our national dish). Some of these are very much American tastes. Most Latin Americans are appalled by peanut butter, root beer and pretzels. I was truly amazed by this. How can you not like peanut butter? But it's true. So the next time you question your cultural uniqueness, pop open a fresh jar of Skippy and celebrate your white bread world. 

[Clarita]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I may be starting to get to the “issue”. So much of this line of study is geared towards openness and sharing.  And, as a “receiver”, that’s awesome.  I have loved having people share their stories and customs AND FOOD with me throughout my whole life. But I’ve never had much (consciously) to share. There is nothing interesting about my roots. Though my Swedish meatballs DO tend to be a hit. 😉 

Growing up my neighbors mom would give me spaghetti, (noodles with some Prego sauce, not some Italian grandmother recipe),guess what to me that was them sharing their culture with me. My neighbor thought that was her boring everyday-ness and to me it was exotic and exciting. When her daughter would come over I would throw some frozen eggrolls into the toaster oven for her and she thought it was the bees knees and to me it was probably equivalent to giving her some tater tots. 

Your "sharing" is your swedish meatballs, your mashed potatoes and gravy, your deli meat sandwich you just have to start consciously sharing those remembering that for the person across from you that's not what they have everyday. Of course there are people who are serious cooks making their own egg rolls and authentic char siu, but someone in that culture is also just buying those things from a store and sharing it with you thinking they are sharing  their regular boring food.

[Corraleno]

13 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ll bet if you lived abroad for a while an American identity would solidify for you. It’s hard to pin any significance on your default “normal” setting until you’re in a place that’s not home. 

I lived in Europe for 10 years, and in many ways I felt more at home there than I do in the US; I don't think I would have been pegged as an American unless I spoke, and then of course my accent would give it away. I was also married to a Brit for 21 years, and I think the biggest cultural differences were really just that we had different references in terms of the TV shows/movies/music we were familiar with. But we were also friends with another American couple living in the UK and although the husband liked it there, the wife really wanted to move back. She wanted her American TV shows, American food, American clothing stores, American church, American neighbors, etc. To her, the contrast between "American Culture" and "British Culture" was really stark and she preferred nearly every aspect of the American version, whereas I mostly preferred the British (or French) versions and didn't miss much about the US at all.

My mother and stepfather absolutely embodied the stereotype that non-Americans tend to have of Americans. They loved to travel, but only on cruise ships where they could have American-style accommodations, service, food, etc. They treated everywhere they went as if it existed solely for the purposes of entertaining tourists. After a Hawaiian cruise, they complained that Hawaii was full of Asians and "didn't have enough Hawaiian atmosphere," as if they expected an entire state to just be a giant theme park. They hated the Caribbean cruise they took, complaining that the police in Cozumel and various Island countries didn't keep the "beggars" away from tourists and as a result they hardly left the ship. Most of the photos from that cruise were huge amounts of food, flower arrangements, and ice sculptures, lol.

In terms of politics, religion, education, worldview, and pretty much every other aspect of "culture" you can think of, there's is literally no overlap between the version of "American Culture" that my mother and stepfather would ascribe to and the "American Culture" of me and my (foreign-born) kids, other than we would recognize a lot of the same TV shows, movies, and music.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

But most of those "interesting" people are eating turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing and pumpkin pie on Thanksgiving. That's your contribution. Then there's chocolate chip cookies, root beer, and PB&J (our national dish). Some of these are very much American tastes. Most Latin Americans are appalled by peanut butter, root beer and pretzels. I was truly amazed by this. How can you not like peanut butter? But it's true. So the next time you question your cultural uniqueness, pop open a fresh jar of Skippy and celebrate your white bread world. 

Especially if you have grape jelly on your PB&J.  We know Europeans who have never had grape jelly.  

[SKL]

8 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I may be starting to get to the “issue”. So much of this line of study is geared towards openness and sharing.  And, as a “receiver”, that’s awesome.  I have loved having people share their stories and customs AND FOOD with me throughout my whole life. But I’ve never had much (consciously) to share. There is nothing interesting about my roots. Though my Swedish meatballs DO tend to be a hit. 😉 

Even modernly, my mom doesn’t live like her parents did. I don’t live as my parents did. My kids don’t live as I did.  Except for those damn ever present meatballs.

Every time you smile and say hello to a stranger, you are sharing your "American" culture.

I don't live exactly as my folks did, but some things were passed down:

• We like living in a stand-alone house.
• School and church haven't changed as much as one might think.
• We both have always had a piano in our house!
• We've all had at least one dog (and often other pets).
• Everybody does some higher education (barring serious educational issues ... tho even my dyslexic dad has an associate's degree).
• Everybody works.
• Everybody drives (going back at least to my mom's generation; before that, it was common for US women not to drive.)
• Most of us have spent much of our lives as business proprietors.
• We love lifelong learning.
• We love nature and art.
• We observe the traditional US / Christian holidays and other special days (birthdays etc.).
• We move away, but family remains important to us.

[marbel]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

There is nothing interesting about my roots.

But there is, you just can't see it. 

North Jersey, right? Which is significantly different from South Jersey, if I understand correctly? 

When I moved here (Philadelphia suburbs, to the west and north) from Oregon, there was this huge cultural difference to navigate. People would talk about soft pretzels as if they were the food of the gods. Scrapple? Pork roll/Taylor ham? What the heck? And the debates about the best cheesesteaks? OMG 

People who have lived in the same house or same neighborhood all their lives. Or they come back as soon as they can. Neighbor on one side is the grandchild of the original owner of the house, who lived there from 195x till her death in 2018 or so. She had been born less than 10 miles away and moved into that house straight from her parents' as a young bride.  There are several like that in my neighborhood. And that is nearly unheard of where I came from.  

(Whereas I moved from Western NY to Silicon Valley CA to Portland OR to Montgomery County PA, very different cultures all.) 

So my ancestral heritage is Eastern European peasant (as my dad was fond of saying) but I can't speak a word of any of the languages my grandparents spoke (immigrants all) and neither could my parents (because those immigrants at that time wanted their kids to be  American, dammit). I don't like pierogis and have no recipes handed down though I remember liking (most of) my Polish grandma's food. My mother tended toward canned chicken chow mein and bottled Ragu(tm) sauce, maybe some Swiss Steak now and then (which I understand is not Swiss at all).

So that's what I talk about when I talk about my cultural identity. I'm an average white American female, neither proud nor ashamed of that because it was an accident of my birth. (Or Providential, if one thinks that way.) My background is not particularly interesting to me, but it has proven to be so to people I have met, just as their boring (to them) background has been interesting to me. 

That is my American culture. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by marbel

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, marbel said:

But there is, you just can't see it. 

North Jersey, right? Which is significantly different from South Jersey, if I understand correctly? 

When I moved here (Philadelphia suburbs, to the west and north) from Oregon, there was this huge cultural difference to navigate. People would talk about soft pretzels as if they were the food of the gods. Scrapple? Pork roll/Taylor ham? What the heck? And the debates about the best cheesesteaks? OMG 

People who have lived in the same house or same neighborhood all their lives. Or they come back as soon as they can. Neighbor on one side is the grandchild of the original owner of the house, who lived there from 195x till her death in 2018 or so. She had been born less than 10 miles away and moved into that house straight from her parents' as a young bride.  There are several like that in my neighborhood. And that is nearly unheard of where I came from.  

(Whereas I moved from Western NY to Silicon Valley CA to Portland OR to Montgomery County PA, very different cultures all.) 

So my ancestral heritage is Eastern European peasant (as my dad was fond of saying) but I can't speak a word of any of the languages my grandparents spoke (immigrants all) and neither could my parents (because those immigrants at that time wanted their kids to be  American, dammit). I don't like pierogis and have no recipes handed down though I remember liking (most of) my Polish grandma's food. My mother tended toward canned chicken chow mein and bottled Ragu(tm) sauce, maybe some Swiss Steak now and then (which I understand is not Swiss at all).

So that's what I talk about when I talk about my cultural identity. I'm an average white American female, neither proud nor ashamed of that because it was an accident of my birth. (Or Providential, if one thinks that way.) My background is not particularly interesting to me, but it has proven to be so to people I have met, just as their boring (to them) background has been interesting to me. 

That is my American culture. 

Within national borders there’s an underlying assumption that local norms/preferences are universal, whether it’s culinary/racial/ethnic/religious/or political. Having never been a great match in any of those spheres, I’ve felt the distinctions. When you are outside the U.S. however, even if you’re aware of the assumptions about Americans and try to head them off, you know people know. There’s a confidence/swagger, willingness to take up space/push back, insist on accommodations and an ease wrt bureaucracy/business transactions (that assumes no harm will come from it) that isn’t universal. It's wholly American. That’s even before you get to food. In Bahrain, a run on goldfish crackers and personal hygiene products with applicators at the base exchange was an emergency issue and people complained about the price/availability of pork! It’s a lot more obvious when your kids are attending events and comparing their lunches/snacks each day too. If you really want to know what defines/identifies an American...ask someone who's lived the majority of their life overseas.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Lawyer&Mom]

This Japanese tourist in Wisconsin is a must see:

Here is a story about him:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/entertainment/2022/09/15/youtuber-george-japan-makes-viral-wisconsin-tiktok-during-world-tour/10381819002/

From an outside perspective, American culture is real!