What does forgiving someone mean, to you?

[Pam in CT]

There are two different frameworks that I find immensely helpful. They're not exactly in conflict with one another, but they place emphasis in different places.

 

1. The first is about ME, and MY lens shaping MY experience and MY daily walk.  It's a quote from, implausibly, Lily Tomlin:  Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past.

The idea is to put down that heavy backpack full of sh!t that's causing me to walk stooped over, that's slowing me down, that's limiting where I go, that's polluting the very air that I breathe.  Whatever happened is in the past.   There is no going back and un-doing it.  There is no hope of fixing backwards. I need to process the pain/hurt/anger, ~~ make amendments as necessary in response ~~ , ... and then figure out a future. That backpack full of sh!t will not help me; give up the backpack, and walk forward.

The essential part of this framework is, forgiveness does NOT mean giving up all hope of a better FUTURE.  So, for big things, amendments in relationship/ boundaries/ behavior are necessary.  A person who suffered abuse as a child might put the backpack down, but never permit the abusive grandparent access to the grandchild. A person whose relative stole from them might put the backpack down, but never permit the thieving relative back in the house. A person whose spouse was unfaithful might put the backpack down, but leave the marriage. Etc.

Which gets to the second framework I find useful:

 

2.  In Judaism, the concept of "teshuvah" is often translated as forgiveness, and sometimes as atonement, but it's really closer to "turning."  It's not [mostly  * ]  between humans and God; it's between  humans and humans; and the core metaphor is that the person-who-has-done-the-harm  turns  from the conduct.  There are three parts to full teshuvah before restoration can happen:

• the person-who-has-done-the-harm  directly addresses the person who has been harmed, and acknowledges and specifically names the conduct  and the harm   (a generalized tweet to the world that I regret if anyone misunderstood my words to be ______ doesn't cut it)
• Where it's possible, the person-who-has-done-the-harm  provides reparations -- if you broke a window, you fix it; if you stole money, you return it plus more.  Some harms don't lend themselves to reparations, but the idea is to try.
• And then the person-who-has-done-the-harm announces their intent to turn away from the conduct... and thereafter does, indeed, turn away from the conduct.

This frameworks gets to the idea that many pp have already raised, that while I as an individual can, Lily Tomlin-like, give up on all hope of a better PAST and decide on my own to "move on"..... relationships are two-way; and putting down the backpack of sh!t may well mean terminating or greatly dialing back the relationship into a new set of boundaries.

So teshuvah is a process for restoration of relationships; and -- this part is critical for me -- the last part of the third prong of teshuvah suggests that it's a long process, not a moment. Because the only way to tell if the person-who-has-done-the-harm actually has turned away from the conduct is to observe that person over time. Long time.

 

 

so

11 hours ago, maize said:

.....It feels like walking a perilous path all too close to quicksand.

This. (This is a beautiful image BTW)

 

11 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Apathy and lowered standards, I think.

also sometimes this.  When trust is fully gone, all that is left is lowered standards.

 

Which I think relates to "trust" vs "hope"

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

...I’ve debated the concept of trust with a therapist. I’ve concluded that most people, at least after a breaking of trust, really mean hope.  If I know what you’re capable of, I can’t just erase it from my brain.  If you say you won’t do it again, I might choose to live as though you won’t and hope that you won’t, but I’m very aware that you CAN and that I’m taking on that risk.

Which comes back to, restoration / teshuvah is a long process, not a moment.  The watchfulness and waiting-to-see-if-a-shoe-falls-again will last for years.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

...I don't believe people should be forced into forgiveness. It is something  that has to come from within. 

So much this -- I don't actually believe it's POSSIBLE even. I cringe when I see parents imposing this on their kids. 

Beyond the age of about five, I cringe even at parents "forcing" their kids into apologies.  A coerced "apology" cannot be genuine.  It's just an exertion of power, which has no role in a genuine restoration of a genuine relationship.

 

 

[She Travels]

I’m wondering if forgiveness is the right word to be using when it comes to your child. In our family, we wouldn’t go the route of forgiveness because our overarching principle would be unconditional love. So how that might look would be, “Son, you’ve done X or believe X (or whatever the offense is) and that hurts us as it goes against the way we tried to raise you and the values we tried to instill in you, BUT, more important than any hurt we may feel is our love for you and even if we fully disagree with what you have done—or are still doing— we love you no matter what. If you are ever in trouble, we want you to understand you have a safe place to land.” If the offense has gone the other way we are quick to say, “Son, we are sorry to have done X. This isn’t the first time we have screwed up this parenting thing and it certainly won’t be the last. But we hope you know that everything we do comes from a place of love, even when our love steers our decisions/ actions in the wrong direction.” 

[Hannah]

I agree with previous posters who have said forgiveness is not reconciliation.  Forgiveness for me is personal, letting go of resentment and anger at someone. 

You cannot demand a reconciliation. The only thing that wrongdoer can do is to offer an honest and genuine apology.  The wrongdoer needs to take full responsibility for their actions and, with empathy, acknowledge how they hurt the other person without trying to explain or defend themselves.   

True remorse and regret need to be demonstrated through actions and the wrongdoer also needs to respect that the relationship may be forever changed.

We also deal with mental illness in our family.  My stance is always that the illness may explain hurtful behaviour, but it is never an excuse.  The wrongdoer has moral agency.  I can forgive them for hurting me, but unless they ‘own’ their actions and demonstrate that they want to change and will work at healing themselves and the relationship, we will not move forward. 

So yes, I think there can be forgiveness without trust and also without full reconciliation.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Hannah

[Indigo Blue]

Letting go of anger but the letting go not necessarily meaning that all the harm done is/was now okay. It’s still not okay, but I can let go, “forgive”, and move on. 
 

Sometimes, though, forgiveness is not really deserved. 

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

It is, but the child can and often does choose polite distance.  They will become guarded, they will limit their interactions that are within their control.  They will not share or invest themselves emotionally.  Essentially, they will grey rock their parent rather than engage.  This will lead to them walking away as soon as they are physically able because they are not interested in potential future toxicity.

It's complicated, but there are options a child will exercise when they no longer feel like an emotional bond is worth pursuing. 

This is what my dd is doing. The offender seems content with the illusion though. Hopefully that lasts as long as it needs to.

Demanding forgiveness is a nice, easy way for an offender to turn themselves into the victim. It's a cowardly move, but once a person learns to recognise it and feel appropriate disgust, they've greatly reduced their chances of getting caught by the next person who tries it on them.

[Melissa Louise]

It doesn't mean anything to me. I think it's a really random concept, like you can will yourself out of feeling, out of trauma. It's irrelevant to me. I just don't find it a helpful way to think at all. I felt much better ( and no meaner) when I ditched it. 

[Catwoman]

14 hours ago, Scarlett said:

When I was posting a lot on a marriage board we often saw this type of first post.

”please help.  My husband is having an affair with his co worker.  He is not sure what he wants to do.  I have already forgiven him.  I need help getting him to stop seeing her.”

HOW can you forgive someone who is continuing the offense? !

Maybe they just post that so they have an easier time staying off the suspect list when the guy turns up dead in a ditch somewhere. 😉 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

Maybe they just post that so they have an easier time staying off the suspect list when the guy turns up dead in a ditch somewhere. 😉 

Ha. It happened so often. I always found it incredibly weird. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

21 hours ago, Scarlett said:

When I was posting a lot on a marriage board we often saw this type of first post.

”please help.  My husband is having an affair with his co worker.  He is not sure what he wants to do.  I have already forgiven him.  I need help getting him to stop seeing her.”

HOW can you forgive someone who is continuing the offense? !

I would assume in this context it means that they have decided to stay in the marriage. But their partner hasn’t decided yet whether to leave or stay. Or they want to stay but only if it means that they can keep the affair on the side. 

[DreamerGirl]

Forgiveness for me is two fold. 

It means doing the one thing I have control over which is letting go of any feelings or thoughts I have towards that person that impacts me. I cannot demand an apology or expect remorse from another person. What I have control over is what my reaction is so let go any expectation. If it happens, it is nice. I am always willing to talk about it. If not, I do not waste my time and energy on that as it affects my mood and emotions. So I use forgiveness as a means of letting go of negative thoughts and feelings that affect me about a person and/or a situation. 

The second part is strong boundaries. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by DreamerGirl

[SKL]

I think in certain contexts it can mean understanding that the offender didn't mean to harm / didn't have wicked intent.  It can take into account mitigating factors such as mental illness that are beyond the offender's control (or were at the time of the offense).

I don't think forgiveness equates to re-establishing trust at all.

Yes, it's a lot to ask of a teen, but if it reflects reality, it may be the healthiest path to pursue.

[Pam in CT]

Thinking overnight on how the restoration of relationships is connected to "trust" and/or "hope"...

... I also expect it's impossible to "make" oneself trust again, let alone "make" somebody else "trust" again.

Just as it's impossible to "make" oneself have faith in a divinity, let alone "make" somebody else have such faith. 

 

Such things can't be compelled, KWIM?  Even of self, let alone anybody else. The trust is there, or it is not there.  We can choose to say words, or to act in a particular way.

But we can't choose an interior condition. If we could, the mental health sector would be miniscule.

[maize]

I've been thinking about the difference between forgiveness and trust.

Trust does not get restored just because we forgive someone. Trust can be shattered permanently; while time and consistently trustworthy behavior can go a long way towards rebuilding trust, that is a process that occurs slowly over long periods of time, and the new trust is likely to always be more fragile and less secure than the trust that might have existed before someone's behavior broke it.

I will be more guarded, less open, more on edge and more reactive with someone who has broken my trust. No amount of forgiveness can change that.

[maize]

Pam and I were posting at the same time, and apparently thinking along similar lines about trust.

[Terabith]

Trust is a function of performance over time.  It simply cannot be forced, even in yourself. 

[Grace Hopper]

This is a hard question for me to answer. In my rational mind, I understand that there is a point of view difference between seeking it and granting it. Each can be one-sided; the action of either granting it or seeking it is something that gives peace to an individual. 
 

Restoration is a different matter. It involves genuine repentance (ie, the offender is sincere and will be deliberate in not repeating the offense) and the rebuilding of trust (the one offended against confident that the offender is sincere and has changed).

In actuality, for me personally, I feel like I can genuinely forgive a person. But being prone to the door-slamming of my INTJ personality type, I struggle deeply with being able to trust again someone who has seriously wronged me. I won’t hold it against them in that I don’t wish them ill, don’t seek revenge, etc, but can very easily decide to just not give them an opportunity to hurt me again. There have been times due to the nature of the offense that I am completely justified in closing a relationship. But there are other times when it really comes down to the level of emotional energy I’m willing to expend. And I confess, sometimes I’m just not willing. That’s a hard thing to know about myself. 

[Drama Llama]

No one is forcing my kid, or trying to force my kid to forgive.  Honestly, it's pretty hurtful that people assume that we are.  We had a conversation about it.  

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Baseballandhockey
Too honest

[Jean in Newcastle]

My understanding of biblical forgiveness is that it means leaving the situation in God’s hands to handle instead of judging them myself. My interpretation of this is that I release myself from feelings of bitterness, anger and blame towards the other person. So it’s an internal attitude. Obviously that internal attitude would keep me from verbally or otherwise trying to get my “pound of flesh “ out of the other person. But choices as to what boundaries I would want to set up or how much trust I would give them in the future is separate. 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

No one is forcing my kid, or trying to force my kid to forgive.  Honestly, it's pretty hurtful that people assume that we are.  We had a conversation about it.  

 

I hope none of my post implied that. I was basically just telling you what forgiveness means to me. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

30 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My understanding of biblical forgiveness is that it means leaving the situation in God’s hands to handle instead of judging them myself. My interpretation of this is that I release myself from feelings of bitterness, anger and blame towards the other person. So it’s an internal attitude. Obviously that internal attitude would keep me from verbally or otherwise trying to get my “pound of flesh “ out of the other person. But choices as to what boundaries I would want to set up or how much trust I would give them in the future is separate. 

Quoting myself because this is a topic that I wrestle with. The Bible also talks about how we should go to the person who’s wronged us to confront them and to (perhaps?) ask them to stop?  So it’s not about never saying anything or just taking abuse. I don’t quite know how the two fit together. 

[Indigo Blue]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Quoting myself because this is a topic that I wrestle with. The Bible also talks about how we should go to the person who’s wronged us to confront them and to (perhaps?) ask them to stop?  So it’s not about never saying anything or just taking abuse. I don’t quite know how the two fit together. 

I think in my case that wouldn’t go well. I do want to let go because I want to move past it and feel peace. Though when that begins to happen, it somehow causes me to let my guard down and be vulnerable. I guess this is exactly why no or low contact becomes necessary. BUT this is a bit different from discussing forgiveness in the sense of just every day trespasses that we all do to one another. At least IMO. For me, the best I can do is get to a place of “alert” apathy. If that makes any sense at all. Trying to have the peace of letting go but somehow staying aware without feeling that you are not peaceful inside. It is all complicated. 

[Pam in CT]

re what does forgiving someone mean, to YOU

58 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

No one is forcing my kid, or trying to force my kid to forgive.  Honestly, it's pretty hurtful that people assume that we are.  We had a conversation about it. 

Speaking only for myself... I'm thrashing out ideas, and parsing terminology, and mulling over the different perspectives others have offered up, and speaking only for myself.  That what the thread title invites.  It's an interesting topic.

 

 

You've got a lot on your plate. (( hugs ))

But it is possible that you may be assuming what "people are assuming."

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I think in my case that wouldn’t go well. I do want to let go because I want to move past it and feel peace. Though when that begins to happen, it somehow causes me to let my guard down and be vulnerable. I guess this is exactly why no or low contact becomes necessary. BUT this is a bit different from discussing forgiveness in the sense of just every day trespasses that we all do to one another. At least IMO. For me, the best I can do is get to a place of “alert” apathy. If that makes any sense at all. Trying to have the peace of letting go but somehow staying aware without feeling that you are not peaceful inside. It is all complicated. 

Well, the biblical model doesn’t apply to everyone because it assumes that all involved are Christians. It also might only apply within a church?  (Part of what I am hashing out in my own mind. ). But the model is:  go to the person privately. If that doesn’t work, go with a couple of witnesses. If that doesn’t work, go before the church body. If that doesn’t work, give up.   So even in that model it doesn’t mean repeatedly bashing your head against an immovable wall. 

[Melissa Louise]

I thought about this some more.

I like the concept of rupture and repair (from psychoanalysis) better than forgiveness. 

I think because it is something both parties can be active in, and not something one grants another.

It accepts that rupture happens, sometimes deliberately and maliciously but most often not. 

But then the process of overcoming that is is active work towards mending the hurt.

Now I'm just imagining....if, say, I was a teen being told by a rupture-causing parent that I needed to forgive him or her - no. That's not repair. That's just adding to the rupture. 

Or maybe I feel an inner need to 'forgive' - but I can't, because repair hasn't happened yet. 

Sometimes the other party refuses or is unable to repair. So then one learns to live with rupture. 

So I think, for me, that what we call forgiveness is just a byproduct of successful repair. 

 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

I think the difference between hurt feelings and actual damage is important.
It is to me, anyway.

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think the difference between hurt feelings and actual damage is important.
It is to me, anyway.

Yes. 

I've 'forgiven' in a hurt feeling situation at work ( mostly because co-worker did some repair for her nasty comment) but she didn't actually damage me, just hurt my feelings (albeit in an already damaged part).

It's appropriate to enact the 'lets go ahead from here politely though warily and leave that in the past' module because the rupture was superficial.

I've never forgiven my ex ( though I am not a grudge holder and behave very well towards him) because he damaged me and was unable to do much meaningful repair.

So forgiveness is simply irrelevant, I think. I just have my complex feelings and watch them as they change or don't change. 

 

[regentrude]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:07 AM, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

Yes, you can. You can stop holding a grudge, may even be able to understand why the person did what they did, may let go of the expectation that the person should do/have done xyz, make your peace with what happened. 

But it doesn't require that you *trust* this person again. Forgiveness and trust have nothing to do with each other. If a friend wrecks my car because they get drunk, I may forgive a but I surely won't trust them with my vehicle again. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Coming late...

To me, forgiveness is an internal process within myself for the sake of my own peace. It means to stop dwelling on the hurt. It doesn't mean to condone what the person did, doesn't require me to understand the person's motivation,  doesn't require the person's repentance. Forgiving means that I can let go of the grudge and anger that is poisoning me from the inside. It requires nothing of the other person. It also doesn't mean that I act as if nothing has happened. If a friend hurts me deeply, forgiving doesn't mean the friendship goes back to what it was - just that I achieve an inner peace with respect to the incident. I may still choose to end the relationship. 

[Drama Llama]

When my youngest was 2, he was a wild thing.  I loved him, but I certainly didn't trust him.  Every moment I was on guard lest he run into a parking lot, lick the dog, jump into the deep end of the swimming pool etc . . . I like to think that I treated him with kindness and love.  And I enjoyed being with him, but I also really appreciated that point in the day when he was safely asleep in his crib and I could let my guard down. 

Right now, my marriage feels like that.   Is that forgiveness?  

[momto3innc]

No, that’s not forgiveness. But it’s also not unforgiving/holding a grudge. To me it’s just…different. It’s being aware of how someone has hurt you and that that person doesn’t feel safe. And so you put up some barriers/guard yourself. And perhaps, it seems, for quite a good reason. If the offender in this, over time, has different behaviors, those barriers start to come down. But that takes a lot of time, many steps down the road, and trust restored. It’s a hard road for sure and one I’m somewhat wrestling with myself.

[fairfarmhand]

56 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

When my youngest was 2, he was a wild thing.  I loved him, but I certainly didn't trust him.  Every moment I was on guard lest he run into a parking lot, lick the dog, jump into the deep end of the swimming pool etc . . . I like to think that I treated him with kindness and love.  And I enjoyed being with him, but I also really appreciated that point in the day when he was safely asleep in his crib and I could let my guard down. 

Right now, my marriage feels like that.   Is that forgiveness?  

I think it can be. Depending on whether you dwell on the painful things that happened and keep yourself from rehashing mentally what has occurred. 
 

the fact that you are kind of keeping the door open indicates that you are open to the process of forgiveness and reconciliation 

dont forget that forgiveness is a process that can take a long long time. Just because you’re not there yet doesn’t mean it’s not in process.

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

When my youngest was 2, he was a wild thing.  I loved him, but I certainly didn't trust him.  Every moment I was on guard lest he run into a parking lot, lick the dog, jump into the deep end of the swimming pool etc . . . I like to think that I treated him with kindness and love.  And I enjoyed being with him, but I also really appreciated that point in the day when he was safely asleep in his crib and I could let my guard down. 

Right now, my marriage feels like that.   Is that forgiveness?  

Sometimes I think forgiveness is a developmental process that is important not to rush. 

We all know life is gonna be swell when the kids are toilet trained and reading fluently, but we also know that trying to get them doing those things before they are developmentally ready makes bigger problems than waiting.

There are important stages in processes that make poor end goals.

Even if it isn't forgiveness, acceptance of reality is a beneficial place to be.

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Sometimes I think forgiveness is a developmental process that is important not to rush. 

We all know life is gonna be swell when the kids are toilet trained and reading fluently, but we also know that trying to get them doing those things before they are developmentally ready makes bigger problems than waiting.

There are important stages in processes that make poor end goals.

Even if it isn't forgiveness, acceptance of reality is a beneficial place to be.

Well said.

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

When my youngest was 2, he was a wild thing.  I loved him, but I certainly didn't trust him.  Every moment I was on guard lest he run into a parking lot, lick the dog, jump into the deep end of the swimming pool etc . . . I like to think that I treated him with kindness and love.  And I enjoyed being with him, but I also really appreciated that point in the day when he was safely asleep in his crib and I could let my guard down. 

Right now, my marriage feels like that.   Is that forgiveness?  

Forgiveness does not mean denying stages of maturity or loss of trust. Forgiveness does not mean automatic reinstatement of privileges. 

[Lecka]

I think for a marriage — it’s impossible to know in the middle of things, how you will feel when things aren’t feeling crisis-y.  What you describe I would describe as crisis-y.  Because — feeling like you have to be wary of a spouse is just crisis-y by definition.

 

Over time — who knows what will happen.

 

Right now I would describe this as showing a willingness to forgive, and a willingness to provide the space for forgiveness to occur.  This is a huge leap of faith.

 

I think it’s too soon to know, though, if you are going to forgive someone, that you are currently wary of.  
 

But definitely it sounds like you are willing to take a step forward, in good faith, in working for your marriage.

 

But I don’t think it’s possible to know what will come of it.  What do you need and deserve in a marriage long-term definitely isn’t what it is now.  Will your marriage be able to move towards that place?  It’s not known.  It takes two people acting in good faith as well as things being able to work out.  
 

I think it’s a very respectable place to be, but not one where there can be certainty about the future or even about how you will feel in 6 months or a year.

 

Because right now you are wary of him.  That means you are focused on him and on responding and reacting to him.

 

But that doesn’t leave a space for you to be seeing how you feel about things *when you are not in crisis mode.*. It’s not how crisis mode works.  
 

Anyway — overall I would think of this as giving someone a chance, not as forgiveness.  Yes, some degree of forgiveness in order to extend the chance.  But hard to know if it will turn out to be a full forgiveness.  It is honestly a lot to ask of someone that they exist in wariness and crisis mode.    It is itself something that will require forgiveness *after it is over.*
 

That is what I think.  There is another poster with a toxic job and people are saying — you don’t even know what it will be like without a toxic job.  I think it’s the same with a partner who is not currently dependable, who is crisis-y. When you’re out of it — then you can see.  This can mean — when he’s doing better, that’s when you can actually assess these things.  

[Lecka]

I also think there are times that it doesn’t do spouses any favors to be endlessly forgiving and not call them out on things and have expectations you expect them to meet.  I think there is a place for reasonable accountability for how people act and how their actions effect other people.  

 

 

[maize]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

When my youngest was 2, he was a wild thing.  I loved him, but I certainly didn't trust him.  Every moment I was on guard lest he run into a parking lot, lick the dog, jump into the deep end of the swimming pool etc . . . I like to think that I treated him with kindness and love.  And I enjoyed being with him, but I also really appreciated that point in the day when he was safely asleep in his crib and I could let my guard down. 

Right now, my marriage feels like that.   Is that forgiveness?  

I think it can be.

I think if you are able to feel love and compassion for a person who has hurt you, you have accomplished a significant amount of forgiveness.

That a degree of caution exists in the relationship is just recognition of reality. 

[prairiewindmomma]

For me, the overlap of forgiveness, acceptance, trust and other messy vague words are like different shades of blue-green. Some aspects are clearly distinguishable, but some look a lot alike. I think pp have done a great job of teasing out various aspects to analyze and contemplate—but I am with Melissa Louise in that, for me personally—looking at things from a rupture/repair angle is more helpful. 
 

Safety and security is a pre-requisite for repair. If that’s not in place, then the relationship cannot be whole even if the desire to repair, intent to do so, and other positive aspects are there.
 

 

[Lecka]

Here is my personal experience:

when we were in crisis mode, if I were to be angry, I couldn’t have also been trying to hold the relationship together, and be supportive of my husband in ways that I thought were reasonable because of things that he had been through.

But, the whole situation was not fair to me at all.  After my husband was doing better and our relationship was getting better, then I was so angry at him for months and months.  
 

There are still things where I can get really angry, but this has gotten a lot less over time.  But it still comes up sometimes (every 2-3 months now probably).

 

My husband was shocked, shocked I tell you, I couldn’t just move on after things were a lot better, and confused that I was angry then instead of before when things were bad.

 

Well, if I had been, how would I have been able to give him a chance?

 

Also, who would have been taking care of the kids and meeting their needs?  Should they have two angry parents, or one who is focused on meeting the emotional needs of the kids?  My instinct was totally just to be the one who kept things as smooth as possible for them.  
 

But when it was safe for me to be angry, all the anger I didn’t know I had came out.  
 

Also if my husband and I are going to have a “real relationship” with things like intimacy, sharing things with each other, etc, part of that is for him to know what my feelings are and have to deal with me having feelings and not just responding/reacting to his feelings.

 

It also meant I told him bad news that previously I would not have told him.  
 

This in particular was a dynamic that was good when it was necessary, but then it was bad when it wasn’t necessary anymore.

 

When he was deployed we both kept things from the other person to keep the other person from worrying and feeling helpless about not being able to do anything because we were living in different places for a year.  It is something that I think can be necessary to get through a situation (a lot of people do what we did, but not everyone does).  But it is not a way to live long-term.  But it is a very hard change to make, and it involved, for us, going back and sharing some things we hadn’t shared before, that were very upsetting things. 
 

My husband had a lot of guilt that he hadn’t been able to help me with some things.  But guess what!  I was angry and felt like I wasn’t going to quit being angry so I could make him feel better about his feelings of guilt.  That was a big change.  
 

Anyway — it’s actually worked out, but it’s a big deal to change a dynamic like we had.  
 

I really agree with pp saying that safety and security are needed in order to proceed past a certain point. But even after that point is reached — there is a long way to go.  But things are so much better with safety and security!

 

And with safety and security, there is no substitute for time.  It takes time to go from feeling wary or in “crisis management mode,” to change to feeling safety and security.

 

And there are different levels, because it can feel conditional — if I ask this way, I know there will be safety and security, but what if I act like this?  For me this was — well what if “I” am angry.

 

But at the same time, I couldn’t help being angry.  I had a lot to be angry about.  

[maize]

7 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Safety and security is a pre-requisite for repair. If that’s not in place, then the relationship cannot be whole even if the desire to repair, intent to do so, and other positive aspects are there.

I agree with this.

When mental illness is in play, then, we have to somehow grapple with the reality that a relationship may never be truly whole. My experience has been that malfunctioning brains are simply not capable of maintaining healthy, fully reciprocal relationships.

And that, fundamentally, is not the fault of the person suffering from the brain malfunction. Oh, there's lots of gray space here--most people struggling with a malfunctioning brain do not lose all of their personal ability to choose and be accountable. Their perceptions of reality and of potential paths forward and likely consequences can, however, be severely distorted, and their ability to regulate their own behavior can be compromised. When the "reality" and options your brain is presenting to you are twisted and truncated, there are serious limitations to personal accountability.

If mental illness in a loved one is ongoing and long term, we have to figure out how to navigate the relationship while understanding that a whole and healthy relationship may never become a reality. There can still be a relationship, even a largely good relationship (dependent on the type and degree and manageability of the brain malfunction), but we have to work within the limitations of reality.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, maize said:

I agree with this.

When mental illness is in play, then, we have to somehow grapple with the reality that a relationship may never be truly whole. My experience has been that malfunctioning brains are simply not capable of maintaining healthy, fully reciprocal relationships.

And that, fundamentally, is not the fault of the person suffering from the brain malfunction. Oh, there's lots of gray space here--most people struggling with a malfunctioning brain do not lose all of their personal ability to choose and be accountable. Their perceptions of reality and of potential paths forward and likely consequences can, however, be severely distorted, and their ability to regulate their own behavior can be compromised. When the "reality" and options your brain is presenting to you are twisted and truncated, there are serious limitations to personal accountability.

If mental illness in a loved one is ongoing and long term, we have to figure out how to navigate the relationship while understanding that a whole and healthy relationship may never become a reality. There can still be a relationship, even a largely good relationship (dependent on the type and degree and manageability of the brain malfunction), but we have to work within the limitations of reality.

This was my point. ❤️ Hugs. There may be no personal accountability due to the illness, but that doesn’t mean that the relationship can be healthy and whole again even if both parties desire it could be, are working to achieve that, etc. You can forgive, accept, all of those messy words and still not be able to fully repair.

[HomeAgain]

16 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

When my youngest was 2, he was a wild thing.  I loved him, but I certainly didn't trust him.  Every moment I was on guard lest he run into a parking lot, lick the dog, jump into the deep end of the swimming pool etc . . . I like to think that I treated him with kindness and love.  And I enjoyed being with him, but I also really appreciated that point in the day when he was safely asleep in his crib and I could let my guard down.

I would call this type of feeling "acceptance".  Forgiveness implies that there is a state where both parties are fully conscious of the decisions that were made and the impact of them on the relationship.  Acceptance is.........well, I'd say it's where one person's mind acknowledges the state of affairs and creates a plan around that to minimize the impact as much as is in their control.

I don't think one is worse than the other.  I think they can go hand in hand.  I just think there has to be at least one of two things for it to be forgiveness:

Compassion and love from the victim for the offender, so that they are able to feel like the person has some sort of guilt or shame for the offense (even if it's unstated).

or

An acknowledgement of wrongdoing and action plan from the offender (an apology), to allow for forgiveness to happen.

I can forgive a 3yo who deliberately bites me, especially if they burst out crying.  I can also accept that a 3yo is not sufficiently developed enough to handle emotions properly and do not need to forgive them because I don't feel wronged, but I can take that development into account and form a daily plan with boundaries in mind and stay on my guard until it passes.  It's not quite a black and white 'this is this, and that is that", is it?  It's more fluid and about how we feel.

[Lecka]

For how our situation is, and I think there are really huge differences than what Maize is saying, but for how it is here, I need a husband and not a 4th child.

 

I think there are relationships where it’s still a relationship between two adults.

 

My husband is more like he’s either acting like my husband or he’s acting like my 4th child, and I can’t have an adult relationship with someone that I am relating to like they are a 4th child.
 

I haven’t said this in a long time but I used to say I couldn’t feel attraction for a 4th child and that is just something that is true about me.  
 

Also it’s a problem for me when I have children who are showing greater maturity than my spouse in some ways.  He needs to definitely show more maturity than the kids in order to  not feel like a 4th child.

 

My husband is worth it, and we are a good couple.  But I had a time where I wasn’t sure how things would end up working out with us.  It wasn’t something where I thought it would work if there was not effort on both sides, it couldn’t only be on my side, and I also needed things to be better for my children to feel like it was a way I wanted them to grow up.  

I think there are a lot of levels of safety and it could be something that is problematic but there is still a lot of good, or it can be something that really prevents a relationship.  We were more on the side of it preventing a relationship.  

 

[Katy]

I think it’s forgiveness but not trust. And I don’t think you (and by you I mean anyone, not just the OP) can have a healthy relationship where you feel safe without trust. I don’t think you can rest without trust. 

But I also think it’s really important to be sure you’re done and have nothing left towards rebuilding trust before you end a marriage. Especially when kids are involved. 

ETA: I also think it’s okay to wait until kids are adults before ending a marriage. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Katy

[maize]

@Lecka I'm sure our situations are not directly comparable. For most of my marriage, my husband's mental illness has been too debilitating for him to be a fully responsible adult or a full partner. What I needed was irrelevant because it was truly not within his capabilities. He has multiple physical handicaps as well, which complicates things. I genuinely feel that he has always been doing the best he could under the circumstances, even when the best he could manage was very, very far from "functional partner."

He has been much more functional in the past two and a half years, and yes I am gradually adjusting my expectations. He sometimes complains (oh, the maturity level here...) about me having higher expectations of him than of some of our children. I have several times asked him point blank if he really wants me to treat him like a nine/seven/five year old 😂! I think those complaints have begun to decrease...