Deleted

[Ann.without.an.e]

Please try not to respond to this thread. Thank you so much

Thank y'all so much for your input. I feel like I have a better understanding and would like to really just not discuss this further. 

 

 

Please please don't quote. I will delete, probably very soon.

I really don't want anyone just agreeing with me, I need real input. 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Jean in Newcastle]

I agree with your dh and sons. Your dd is holding your entire house hostage. She can discuss this with a therapist. She might ghost you for awhile but she needs to take responsibility for her own emotions. 

[mommyoffive]

Granted I have never moved a kid out of my house yet, but I think she is off base here.  I mean sure it might make you emotional if I just got married 2 weeks ago and moved out of the house.  I missed how long she has been out of the house for.  But um, she doesn't live there.  It isn't her house.  And she has 2 siblings at home sharing a room so that her old room can just remain empty??  

I think your SIL is out of line to tell you to apologize.  I thought he was one that said it was not going to upset her?  Even if it was it isn't his right to tell you how to run your home.  At all!!

You have the right to do what you want or need to with your home and not have to run it by an adult kid to see if they are ok with it.  Like I said I get how it would be emotional for a kid in a way, but what the heck?  She has no right to lay claim to that room.  Is she going to come back and stay in it again?  

I don't think you owe her an apology at all.  

Does your dd know your and dh's feelings about wedding and business?  That she hasn't shown gratitude for all you have done? 

[cjzimmer1]

DD was out of line and SIL was out of line to demand an apology.  Yes those transitions are hard for her but she doesn't get to run the show.  She was there several times and chose not to deal with her stuff.  It's totally on her then if things weren't done to her satisfaction.  She's just going to have to get over herself.  It's no longer her space and someone else needs it.  

My girls are counting down to when DS gets married next year, because it means they won't have to double up.  DS is very particular about who touches his stuff or who even enters his room.  You better believe it that if that stuff isn't out of there is a reasonable time, then someone will be moving it for him.  

[Slache]

You messed with her stuff without asking. That was wrong and you should apologize.

You should give her an expiration date. If she doesn't make it you get to pack it up.

[Danae]

She’s overreacting, and your SIL is out of line.  
 

But you were wrong to pack up her things with no warning and only tell her afterward.  You should have given her a timeline and told her if she wasn’t done by x day you would box her things so that she could go through them at her leisure.

[happi duck]

I deal with anxiety as do other adults in my home.

This all sounds like what I would expect.  For me and mine this would be way, way too many transitions all at once.  Truly too much.

Anxiety isn't being emotional or cranky or mean.  It is really debilitating and can be a delicate balance to keep on top of.  Transitions really make it so very hard.  Spaces can have so much more impact on the anxious.

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I agree with your dh and sons. Your dd is holding your entire house hostage. She can discuss this with a therapist. She might ghost you for awhile but she needs to take responsibility for her own emotions. 

I don't think she intends to hold us hostage and she can be a really really great person and very sweet when all is well. 

 

3 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Granted I have never moved a kid out of my house yet, but I think she is off base here.  I mean sure it might make you emotional if I just got married 2 weeks ago and moved out of the house.  I missed how long she has been out of the house for.  But um, she doesn't live there.  It isn't her house.  And she has 2 siblings at home sharing a room so that her old room can just remain empty??  

I think your SIL is out of line to tell you to apologize.  I thought he was one that said it was not going to upset her?  Even if it was it isn't his right to tell you how to run your home.  At all!!

You have the right to do what you want or need to with your home and not have to run it by an adult kid to see if they are ok with it.  Like I said I get how it would be emotional for a kid in a way, but what the heck?  She has no right to lay claim to that room.  Is she going to come back and stay in it again?  

I don't think you owe her an apology at all.  

Does your dd know your and dh's feelings about wedding and business?  That she hasn't shown gratitude for all you have done? 

I'm sorry for the confusion, Older SIL was telling us it would not upset her. No, I think she just wanted to slowly go through each drawer over time or something? I don't know tbh. She would start, get emotional, and quit and older dd even said that she needed this nudge because she would never do it on her own and it would help her let go. Idk what was best. I know that it is a tricky call with anxiety. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[plansrme]

Long term, I honestly don't know how you can not end up having her go no- or low-contact with you if this is what it takes to maintain a relationship. And for your newly-minted SIL to tell you how you must deal with her must have been--hard. Short-term, I've never had an adult in my life with these kinds of issues, but I was a witness to an epic tantrum from a 4 year old boy in line ahead of me at Marshall's yesterday. Mom held him firmly by the hand and flatly refused to acknowledge his screaming. And ya' know, by the time she was to a register, he had calmed down. It was fascinating. I would have been mortified when mine were that age, but she was cool as a cucumber. An older woman even tapped the kid on the shoulder and said, "Are you alright?" Kid was fine. Mom heard but did not acknowledge the nosy woman. I was in awe. Perhaps consider your daughter is throwing a very grown-up tantrum and ignore it, along with your SIL, who is the nosy lady in line.  

[happi duck]

Iiwm, I would've known to leave the room be for a long time.  So long that a lot of boardies would scoff.  However, you didn't know.  

[fraidycat]

I agree with your family. She is out of line. Maybe instead of walking on eggshells, it's time to stand up for yourself. You've already apologized for what you could apologize for, next time tell her to get over herself and think of someone else.

You can choose how gently or not-so-gently you'd like to say it, but make it clear that her dad, brothers', and your feelings matter, too.

I get that she is in a transition period, and that it can be an emotional time, but that doesn't mean nobody else matters, just because she's "in a mood".

[mom31257]

If you agreed to let her things stay as they were and didn't give her a timeframe on when you would be taking the desk, then maybe you do owe an apology. 

I agree with Jean that she is holding your house hostage. Deadlines would have been a better way to deal with it. 

I think SIL needs to stay out of it. Is dd and her new spouse living with SIL? I'm not sure I am understanding that right. 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, mom31257 said:

If you agreed to let her things stay as they were and didn't give her a timeframe on when you would be taking the desk, then maybe you do owe an apology. 

I agree with Jean that she is holding your house hostage. Deadlines would have been a better way to deal with it. 

I think SIL needs to stay out of it. Is dd and her new spouse living with SIL? I'm not sure I am understanding that right. 

 

Sorry I tried to make it clear, I used "SIL" for dd's spouse and "Older SIL" for my older dd's husband who was helping us move the furniture. Younger dd's spouse sent the text about us being out of line. 

[happi duck]

I think sil is the new spouse.

He's probably pretty scared and overwhelmed and desperate to comfort his new wife

[mom31257]

If she is caring and sweet as you say, I think she needs to know that she made her father cry. People need to know there are consequences to their actions. She is certainly concerned for her own emotions, so she should consider how she makes others feel.  

 

[vonfirmath]

I would have expected the wedding to be the deadline.

Maybe a few things in the garage to move after the honeymoon. But especially with younger brothers needing the room, she needed to be out.

When we got married, my husband moved some things over before the wedding, adn the rest right after the honeymoon. He didn't have the leisure to leave stuff in his rental -- his roommate needed to get a new roommate in. (And yes he had paid rent through the end of the month -- but it is still easier to get a roommate when the stuff is gone.)

Edited June 20, 2022 by vonfirmath

[happi duck]

A true anxiety order is so different from feeling anxious.  Everyone tends to think they completely understand because they have felt anxious/nervous from time to time.

 

[Melissa Louise]

24 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I agree with your dh and sons. Your dd is holding your entire house hostage. She can discuss this with a therapist. She might ghost you for awhile but she needs to take responsibility for her own emotions. 

This. 

I'd suggest that DBT therapy could be useful, in terms of teaching distress tolerance skills. 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:47 PM, mom31257 said:

If she is caring and sweet as you say, I think she needs to know that she made her father cry. People need to know there are consequences to their actions. She is certainly concerned for her own emotions, so she should consider how she makes others feel.  

 

You know I really hesitated but I did do this. I sent her a text to say how this hurt him and she will know that he is never hurt and never takes things personally.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[KSera]

Am I remembering right that this is the dd who wanted to bring the family cat (dog?) with her when she got married? I recall at the time she reminded me in many ways of one of my dc on the spectrum. We do so much walking on egg shells around that dc so I totally get that. It doesn’t make it fair or reasonable though.

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:52 PM, KSera said:

Am I remembering right that this is the dd who wanted to bring the family cat (dog?) with her when she got married? I recall at the time she reminded me in many ways of one of my dc on the spectrum. We do so much walking on egg shells around that dc so I totally get that. It doesn’t make it fair or reasonable though.

Yes

I don't think she is on the spectrum? Anxiety and ASD have some crossing symptoms that I think we are seeing though. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[happi duck]

For some people a deadline of before the wedding or whatever would be fine but not for this woman at this time.

Think of a disorder or injury that y'all would have grace for and transfer it to this.

With this big life transition she will need more skills than she seems to have and is hopefully already working with a therapist.  

I'm not suggesting perpetual eggshells but the way things are in the moment this isn't, imo, a time for just telling her to "stop it".

Those of us with anxiety wish we could just stop.  When we get hijacked it's painful and scary.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:42 PM, plansrme said:

Long term, I honestly don't know how you can not end up having her go no- or low-contact with you if this is what it takes to maintain a relationship. And for your newly-minted SIL to tell you how you must deal with her must have been--hard. Short-term, I've never had an adult in my life with these kinds of issues, but I was a witness to an epic tantrum from a 4 year old boy in line ahead of me at Marshall's yesterday. Mom held him firmly by the hand and flatly refused to acknowledge his screaming. And ya' know, by the time she was to a register, he had calmed down. It was fascinating. I would have been mortified when mine were that age, but she was cool as a cucumber. An older woman even tapped the kid on the shoulder and said, "Are you alright?" Kid was fine. Mom heard but did not acknowledge the nosy woman. I was in awe. Perhaps consider your daughter is throwing a very grown-up tantrum and ignore it, along with your SIL, who is the nosy lady in line.  

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Farrar]

I do understand why she's upset. Ideally you should have at least called to tell her you were about to do this. I agree with others that she was basically holding the house hostage by not cleaning her stuff out, but also it seems like no one called her on it. And you didn't either - probably because you knew she'd get upset. But then it came to a bit of a head and no one had said, "hey, you haven't been following the plan and if you don't get moving, we'll have to take steps to move your stuff." Which, maybe not technically required, but definitely would have been better.

But her reaction is way, way, way over the top.  It's like she went to the ER for a papercut. It's like she tried to report a stolen cookie to the FBI. 

I think it does not bode well for her relationship with you and the rest of the family, especially that she pulled her new dh into it. I mean, he should be on her side and support her... but she got him to reach out and basically scold you all? Like, that's the part that's the most egregious to me, honestly. Everything else is a young adult who has anxiety expressing that anxiety and lashing out, which is obviously not great, but is a thing that happens. Getting someone else pulled into that view and supporting it like it's super rational feels like a step into something more to me. Because it implies he's going to reinforce when anxiety makes her behave irrationally. And that's not a great sign.

I think you need to give her space. And I'm not sure what the long term solution is, but I do think if she has a therapist that you should suggest that she talk to the therapist about the room and her childhood belongings ASAP because there is a brother waiting to get into the room and you're all going to move all the stuff out very soon. And then give a firm date.

[footballmom]

There are a lot of valid feelings in your posts - you feeling like the “shock absorber”, your DH feeling stretched and unappreciated, and your DD for feeling overwhelmed with lots of transitions.  You can’t go back and do it another way, and I don’t think what you did is terrible.  I would give a heartfelt apology “I’m sorry I didn’t give you a deadline for having your things packed” and try to mentally move on the best you can.  DD may continue to be upset.  If I’m remembering correctly, your new SIL has a lot of issues with his FOO and is sensitive to you crossing boundaries.  His text to you crosses a boundary.  He can support his wife but not come at you, too.  It’s between you and your DD.  I would try making your apology to DD and leaving it.  So sorry, this sounds hard. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, happi duck said:

For some people a deadline of before the wedding or whatever would be fine but not for this woman at this time.

Think of a disorder or injury that y'all would have grace for and transfer it to this.

With this big life transition she will need more skills than she seems to have and is hopefully already working with a therapist.  

I'm not suggesting perpetual eggshells but the way things are in the moment this isn't, imo, a time for just telling her to "stop it".

Those of us with anxiety wish we could just stop.  When we get hijacked it's painful and scary.  

I do think people with anxiety need more time to process for sure. That's one reason we carefully put her things into bins and told her to take all the time she needed. I felt like she was going to process through it slowly. I was wrong. We probably should have handled it differently but we didn't.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, happi duck said:

Iiwm, I would've known to leave the room be for a long time.  So long that a lot of boardies would scoff.  However, you didn't know.  

How would that be fair to her sons? A person not even living there anymore gets their own room, but the kids that DO live there don't? 

DD is being unfair to hold on to the room that she isn't using when someone else needs/wants it. She has her own room somewhere else now. She got her own room, rather than sharing, for years even when still in the house. She is upset, but oh well, life is upsetting. It isn't fair to give in, at the expense of the other kids, because she is more emotional. 

[happi duck]

Sil isn't helping with offering to kidnap the dog, jeez.  He'll need to learn how to love an anxious person.  Making every anxiety true won't help. "Yes you will die without the dog so I'll steal it" doesn't help. "Your parents do hate you" doesn't help.

This isn't an easy situation for anybody.

[Ann.without.an.e]

For those who are saying we should've given her a deadline. We totally would've if this was planned. We just happened to have the manpower available unexpectedly. Completely impromptu. Dh works really hard and he would've done it all himself in two weeks and given notice but he has been unusually tired (he usually has endless energy) and he had two young men saying they'd help. It felt like the time to take a burden off DH for once, who physically does everything for everyone all the time with very little help. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:59 PM, footballmom said:

There are a lot of valid feelings in your posts - you feeling like the “shock absorber”, your DH feeling stretched and unappreciated, and your DD for feeling overwhelmed with lots of transitions.  You can’t go back and do it another way, and I don’t think what you did is terrible.  I would give a heartfelt apology “I’m sorry I didn’t give you a deadline for having your things packed” and try to mentally move on the best you can.  DD may continue to be upset.  If I’m remembering correctly, your new SIL has a lot of issues with his FOO and is sensitive to you crossing boundaries.  His text to you crosses a boundary.  He can support his wife but not come at you, too.  It’s between you and your DD.  I would try making your apology to DD and leaving it.  So sorry, this sounds hard. 

Yes, he has a lot of issues with his mom. He has some OCD too I think.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[happi duck]

@ktgrok

 Idk.  Fair is everyone gets what they need not everyone gets the same.  I grew up in a house where we shuffled arrangements all the time so the brother sleeping in there with the dog without all his stuff for a little longer is nothing ime.

[Tanaqui]

So there's clearly a lot going on.

You really *should* have given her a firm deadline as to when she had to move her stuff herself or else you'd pack it for her. On that *particular* claim she is correct.

However, everything else - no. You have other children who need that room, and she did know that you planned to move her stuff out. And her spouse *really* should not be playing emotional go-between for you guys - if she's not ready and able to tell you how she feels then she shouldn't be putting that on him to do, nor should he be taking it upon himself.

She's seeing a therapist. Are you seeing one, alone or with her?

[happi duck]

@Ann.without.an.e

Adding ocd to the mix makes this concerning because perhaps they both feel like their world's flipped upsidedown.

Iirc, getting married and moving are both on the list of top stressors.  Not always joyous.

Btw, want to clarify that I'm in no way scolding you.  I know how hard this stuff is.  Sometimes you can't stop something and need to ride it out.

I hope your sil can learn to really be there for your dd without lashing out at anyone.

[Melissa Louise]

I have an anxiety disorder. So do my kids. We are au fait with anxiety here.

Having an anxiety disorder means you need to work harder not to hold others hostage to it. It doesn't mean you can have consequence free anxiety meltdowns. 

Of course, all of us fail to manage our anxiety well sometimes, in which case we later apologize for the impact our meltdown had on others. 

Re the belongings, I think communication needs to be explicit as well as being validating. 

Hon, I know thinking about your belongings is triggering for you. It's been hard for you to pack. Leaving home can be such an emotional time. (validate)

We will need the room for brother by month X. You are welcome to pack slowly during that time, or have someone else do it for you. After month X I will need to empty the room. I will store all your things in tubs in the garage for the rest of the year.(communicate)

And then do the short version on repeat, as needed. It's hard, isn't it? I will store your things for you. 

 

 

[Danae]

18 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

For those who are saying we should've given her a deadline. We totally would've if this was planned. We just happened to have the manpower available unexpectedly. Completely impromptu. Dh works really hard and he would've done it all himself in two weeks and given notice but he has been unusually tired (he usually has endless energy) and he had two young men saying they'd help. It felt like the time to take a burden off DH for once, who physically does everything for everyone all the time with very little help. 

This is you making excuses why you don’t owe her an apology.

[gardenmom5]

I have one with asd with extremely volatile mood swings.  FINALLY, have found things that help.  that said . . . . 

Your dd is now a married adult who doesn't live in your house.  it's time for her to transfer her attachment/dependence upon you (and your house) - to her husband.

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, Danae said:

This is you making excuses why you don’t owe her an apology.

Oh no, I have profusely apologized to and validated dd's feelings. That is what I was asking. SIL says my apology isn't enough. Everyone else in my family is saying we did nothing to apologize for. *I* personally have apologized but everyone says I was wrong to. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, Danae said:

This is you making excuses why you don’t owe her an apology.

She doesn't owe her an apology. She can acknowledge there was another way things could have gone without apologizing for not doing it that way.

 

ETA: It does sound like she has chosen to make an apology to try to keep a relationship open.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Melissa Louise]

Yeah, SIL needs to butt out, but explaining does feel like negation to highly sensitive people. 

One apology needed. I am sorry we moved your belongings without communicating with you about it. I understand that was rough for you. 

End of. 

Ideally then dd will apologize for her role in this, and you can all move on. 

[KSera]

nm

Edited June 20, 2022 by KSera
OP read already

[Clarita]

I wouldn't say she's overreacting, but you are also not wrong. I would hope her therapist would help her see that. 

As for my advice, I know the urge to keep your daughter happy and maintain a relationship with her. The fact of the matter is a relationship is always two sided. You have to want to be in a relationship with her and she has to want to be in a relationship with you, despite each other's shortcomings. I'm empathetically telling you this as someone who spent decades trying to keep her mom happy with her. One year (my first year of marriage and not even a year since my father's passing) my mom up and moved across an ocean from me (she didn't have to). I begged her on my knees to stay because I needed her (I was losing everything I had ever known in less than 1 years time). She told me I did everything right, was a great daughter, better than how she raised me and that's why she's leaving. There is not enough right things for you to do that will keep your daughter from cutting you off. She has to want to be in relationship with you too for a relationship to work. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Clarita
typo

[Danae]

4 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Oh no, I have profusely apologized to and validated dd's feelings. That is what I was asking. SIL says my apology isn't enough. Everyone else in my family is saying we did nothing to apologize for. *I* personally have apologized but everyone says I was wrong to. 

You apologized for her hurt feelings.  You are way too focused on trying to manage everyone’s feelings.  You didn’t apologize for your actions because you don’t think you did anything wrong.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/20/2022 at 12:32 AM, Danae said:

You apologized for her hurt feelings.  You are way too focused on trying to manage everyone’s feelings.  You didn’t apologize for your actions because you don’t think you did anything wrong.  

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[BusyMom5]

We have a lot of kids, so an empty room for a kid who is married and moved out while others have to share feels wrong.  You have to manage a family, not just one kid's feelings.  She is holding your family hostage with her emotional outbursts.  I'm sure both she and SIL aren't going to see it that way, but your other kids probably do. 

Looking at it from the other kids POV, assuming you kept waiting for her to be "ready"- mom and dad had plenty of room but made us share a room bc sister would not go through her room, and mom refused to touch anything without permission.   Sister is so spoiled, treated with kid gloves.  

You can apologize for hurting her feelings and upsetting her- bc you are clearly sorry for that.  I would not apologize for moving the stuff since she had opportunities and chose not to.  I'm also wondering how long she would have put it off- maybe older sister is right that she needed the push.  

I am sorry you had so much drama on Father's Day.  

[Dianthus]

I don't think you're wrong at all or need to apologize for anything. Your dd was told to move her things for your ds to move in. She didn't move her things. It's her fault that you had to move them and she should apologize for giving you extra work. And she should apologize for this huge overreaction and drama she's causing.

[Melissa Louise]

You didn't do anything wrong. 

Wrong, to me, would be, hey dd we put your stuff in a skip because you refused to deal with it. 

You weren't perfect in the way things unfolded.

Oh well, that's life. Dd will have to learn that, just as every other human on the planet does. 

Yes, it sucks to have anxiety. But other people, priorities and needs exist and will, sometimes, impinge on you. OK. 

 

[LaughingCat]

She had plenty of notice that brother was moving into what had been her room and she had plenty of time to pack but she chose not to pack.   A deadline would have been nice on your part but OTOH actually packing up things would have been nice on her part. 

I would struggle to apologize in this instance for anything.  I'm sorry you're upset about this is probably the best I could do. 

[Danae]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I'm not being snarky here, I promise, but how do you know what I apologized for? I apologized that this hurt her, how it unfolded in a way that she didn't have notice, and that this is hard for her. I clarified in every way possible that we never would hurt her intentionally and that I would've done it differently if I'd know that it would hurt her. I said that I was wrong to assume that her attachment was just to the things and not the furniture itself (which she came back and said she wasn't attached to the furniture). 

And my whole question for this entire post was whether we did anything wrong? Because I feel like we maybe did but every other person involved said we didn't. And what constitutes wrong? I really don't have a clue. If you do something in good conscious and unknowingly hurt someone, you really didn't intentionally do wrong here, all you can really apologize for is how it made them feel because SHE did the same thing with older dd's stuff to get it out of her way when dd went to college and older dd didn't care at all. We also boxed up some more stuff after older dd got married and she even said that was "so helpful". That is my entire question here. If everyone else involved says it wouldn't have bothered them, even had similar experiences, and weren't bothered then did we do wrong? Or maybe all we can do is apologize that our actions hurt her specifically because of how it made her feel? I dont even know what else to apologize for. 

I know what you apologized for because you told us.  In your first post and in this one, in great detail.

Your question is whether you did anything wrong.  My answer is yes, you did.  You should not have emptied her drawers without telling her ahead of time that you were going to do so. Others obviously disagree.  
 

 

 

[Danae]

Maybe think about why you feel you can only apologize for hurting her feelings, which you did not intentionally do, and not for boxing up her stuff without notice, which you did intentionally do.

[mommyoffive]

49 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Yes, he has a lot of issues with his mom. He has some OCD too I think. I also feel he crossed a boundary. 

Just from the 3 things you posted about him, wow.  Yes, I think he has crossed a boundary and isn't good that you have to deal with both of them being difficult.