A couple of thoughts that I had about unschooling while living in an almost completely educated community in Haiti

[rose]

Over that last year our family has spent ten month living in Haiti. We're temporarily back in Canada for my husband to do a little work for money. Most of the time we were living on a mountain top a couple of hours from Port au Prince. We were constantly interacting with the local people. I don't know if I met a single woman there that was literate. Many of the men are illiterate too. It really struck me how profoundly their lack of education shapes them. I'll try to explain. These people have a terribly ignorant understanding of agriculture. They grow their crops but they don't give back to the soil in any way. They don't compost or add manure or anything. They don't terrace. They don't clear rocks. Their animal ruin many of the plants as they're growing. Their land is practically barren. I so wish to help them do better. The problem though is that they don't realize that there is any way to better. They lived their whole life without access to science. They don't access the internet or even television. When we told one fellow that we heard that there was a hurricane coming via the internet he was surprised that "they know that there". When we showed people pictures of our home most people didn't even know what snow was and were surprised that it was too cold to grow bananas in Canada. The people that were trying to help medically had never heard of protein or iodine. They just don't even know that there is knowledge out there that can help them if they were to go looking for it. Where could they even start looking? The only book that any of them own is a Bible and maybe some primitive school books. There's no library. Even if they get internet access on their phones how many webpages out there are in Creole? It's very sad.

We didn't intend to stay so long when we left but there were many hold ups to returning. Consequently I didn't bring a lot of resources for my children. Our internet connection was also REALLY poor (hence my absence here). I felt like my right hand was cut off. I don't allow much of any screen time for my children but I do show the odd supplemental youtube video, etc. I use the internet for research all the time. I realized that if some reason we become stuck there I would need some really good textbooks and old fashioned hard work to manage to educate my children. Since being home I bought a massive sd card and downloaded wikipedia. 🙂 I'm stocking up all around.

We also got a chance to watch a local school as we were housed in an apartment attached to an elementary school for several weeks. There were four classes running simultaneously in one large room. Wow, rote learning stinks. Lots of times tables chanting. Those children were constantly getting strapped. Education has come a long way in the developed world.

All of these observations got me thinking about unschooling in Canada and the US. How does it ever work? How do people end up even remotely educated? The conclusion that I came to is that we're just so rich here that knowledge is everywhere. Intentional education is better but unschooling sort-of works when children are in a rich enough environment. Count your blessings.

[Clarita]

I have trouble seeing how "pure" unschooling works unless you have that kid who just really self motivated to do the hard work even if it's not "required". (I think it's rare.) I do know a homeschooler at my church who are unschooling/unschooled their kids, yes I think their kids are undereducated. The parents thought it was great; me on the outside noticed their kids didn't know as much as other kids. It is but one example though so it's not conclusive for sure.

Some unschoolers do have certain intentional/forced subjects (math, reading, writing) and other subjects are unschooled. Some follow their children's interest but make a point to work in the necessary subjects (maybe they'll try to relate the necessary subjects to the child's interest). 

Of course unschooling in the developed world looks a lot different from life in mountain top Haiti. Usually the parents are literate, the kids are surrounded by people who do know things, so it's not quite as dire.

[Frances]

I only know one family here who were truly unschoolers. Both of their children were very successful in college and afterwards. The parents were well educated and the kids were bright and curious. 
 

We definitely unschooled in some areas for many years, especially science. With a scientist in the house and lots of others readily available, it was very easy. It was similar for most language arts areas for many years. With a voracious reader who loved new words, just surrounding him with a language rich environment was enough for a long time. Even in high school, we allowed quite a bit of latitude in following interests and choosing electives. Certainly far more than would ever be allowed in a regular school. But the basics were quite strong by that point.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Frances

[8filltheheart]

On a fundamental level, humans must be hardwired to learn or we as a people would never have advanced.  So, in some essence at some level, successful observation, exploration, discovery, learning is attainable without a school. Obviously in modern society, it is a waste of time reinventing the wheel, but somewhere/sometime the use of a wheel and axle was an advancement.  

 I think you are witnessing a multitude of issues.  Meeting of fundamental needs (food, shelter, clothing) takes up an inordinate amt of physical and mental energy.  If those needs aren't met, there isn't much room left for anything else, even learning in a formal academic setting, let alone having the mental capacity to consider exploring alternative methods that might improve quality of crops/production, etc.  Add in the complexity of the history of natural and human induced disasters (humanitarian efforts have complicated the lives of Haitians due to lack of well-thought through consequences like the impact of cheap imported rice), and the answers are definitely not simple. 

In terms of successful unschooling, I have also witnessed a family with kids with high levels of achievement.  The parents were very intellectual and their home was one of intellectual engagement.   Their kids didn't have access to tv, gaming, etc.  Reading books, playing/ building with construction materials, experimenting with basic lab materials, playing musical instruments (the harp in particular) were how they spent their days.  That sort of mentally rich environment is not one you can just drop a random kid into and expect them to take advantage of it.  Part of it is nurturing that sort of exploratory learning and the joy of self-mastery from a young age.

We aren't unschoolers by any stretch, but I do have kids who would have been very successful unschoolers if left to their own devices bc they are internally driven and intellectually curious, and they continue to be so as adults.  I do require a minimum level of input/output from my kids, but a large portion of what we study is selected by my children and their goals are the basis for our choices.  So, yes, I can accept that unschooling can be successful in some form, but I believe it has to be intentional and family-driven intellectual lifestyle, not haphazard, kids do whatever and if they want to learn they do, if not they don't.

[HomeAgain]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

I only know one family here who were truly unschoolers. Both of their children were very successful in college and afterwards. The parents were well educated and the kids were bright and curious. 
 

 

This.  I know one family who took John Holt's words to heart and created an unschooling environment that works for them.  They do not sit back.  The parents are active participants in their communities and model, encourage, and expose their kids to all sorts of things so that the kids pick a direction, but the parents fill in the tapestry of skills development opportunities.

These kids will never have an organized education until they go to college, but for them, it's really not a bad thing. They are being coached through how to be determined and meet their own goals, and it serves them well.

 

There are a lot of "unschoolers" I've met who are simply neglectful.  Kids are left to electronics most of the day and the parents aren't much better.  Unschooling became a buzzword.  There are others I've met who just don't have the resources, even in the U.S. to know what they don't know. But it's more that the knowledge isn't valued in their community enough to pass it down or seek it out.

[Miss Tick]

Don't miss the distinction between unschooling and , I don't know, "nonschooling" The unschooled I've read about that seemed successful put full time effort in to supporting children's interests, making opportunities available, demonstrating usefulness of less-interesting topics. This is different than leaving a child completely to their own devices.

I suspect, though, that every family has to decide what their parameters are - how much assistance is too much, what distinguishes unschooling from child-led, are there any minimums required (Algebra, computer fluency, history), etc.

In anticipation of your travels, you may want to search for some of @Hunter old threads about schooling out of a suitcase. She asked the question and people responded with their lists.

[lulalu]

I have spent years living among people groups with very limited education and literacy levels. Many of my observations are similar to yours. Farming and hygiene are areas that suffer the most. Lack of access to knowledge and the know how of how to apply new knowledge are what I have seen as hindering growth. I have been dumbfounded by a lack of knowledge on how to fertilize the ground. 

From my observations of life, I really think education must be top down. Wisdom of the elders has to be passed down. The older people become the (hopefully) wiser they become. A child doesn't have the capacity to understand what skills and knowledge will be vital as an adult. Without someone passing down wisdom how will a child know what to learn? But I also can see how an educated family and environment can have a child raised to he educated. Without the right environment my experience has shown that an uneducated person will not be able to become educated on their own. I am sure that history and the world have shown exceptions to this, but it isn't the norm. 

For us we have pushed through learning things my son hasn't chosen on his own or seen the value, but dh and I have seen the value. 

[rose]

2 hours ago, lulalu said:

I have spent years living among people groups with very limited education and literacy levels. Many of my observations are similar to yours. Farming and hygiene are areas that suffer the most. Lack of access to knowledge and the know how of how to apply new knowledge are what I have seen as hindering growth. I have been dumbfounded by a lack of knowledge on how to fertilize the ground. 

From my observations of life, I really think education must be top down. Wisdom of the elders has to be passed down. The older people become the (hopefully) wiser they become. A child doesn't have the capacity to understand what skills and knowledge will be vital as an adult. Without someone passing down wisdom how will a child know what to learn? But I also can see how an educated family and environment can have a child raised to he educated. Without the right environment my experience has shown that an uneducated person will not be able to become educated on their own. I am sure that history and the world have shown exceptions to this, but it isn't the norm. 

For us we have pushed through learning things my son hasn't chosen on his own or seen the value, but dh and I have seen the value. 

These are interesting observations. The children that I met did learn things but only the narrow range of materials that were passed on by their parents, what was on the radio and a little that they got from their poor schools. Unfortunately it is just too little or just plain wrong. I think that you're absolutely right that I child doesn't have the capacity to know what they need to learn. It also seems intuitive to believe that an early lack of direction will shape their ability to learn later. We shouldn't conclude that we need to be teaching algebra to toddlers but our example of engaging with research, for example, will shape our children's desire to learn to do this as well.

 

[daijobu]

18 hours ago, rose said:

Over that last year our family has spent ten month living in Haiti. We're temporarily back in Canada for my husband to do a little work for money. Most of the time we were living on a mountain top a couple of hours from Port au Prince. We were constantly interacting with the local people. I don't know if I met a single woman there that was literate. Many of the men are illiterate too. It really struck me how profoundly their lack of education shapes them. I'll try to explain. These people have a terribly ignorant understanding of agriculture. They grow their crops but they don't give back to the soil in any way. They don't compost or add manure or anything. They don't terrace. They don't clear rocks. Their animal ruin many of the plants as they're growing. Their land is practically barren.

I'm curious about this if you don't mind, since I'm not very familiar with Haiti or with subsistence farming.  But I was under the vague impression that knowledge about farming at this level was not something one learned how to do in school, but rather was passed down through the generations.  Children worked on the farm with their parents and learned on the job.  It seems like even uneducated subsistence farmers would know how to fertilize their soil with manure because that's been a practice for thousands of years.  What am I missing?  

[HomeAgain]

20 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I'm curious about this if you don't mind, since I'm not very familiar with Haiti or with subsistence farming.  But I was under the vague impression that knowledge about farming at this level was not something one learned how to do in school, but rather was passed down through the generations.  Children worked on the farm with their parents and learned on the job.  It seems like even uneducated subsistence farmers would know how to fertilize their soil with manure because that's been a practice for thousands of years.  What am I missing?  

Now you have me wondering if my own education was different, because I do have this expectation.  I grew up in a farming community.  My elementary school was designed to have classroom gardens, and by high school we had an entire working farm & agriculture department with classes covering everything from balancing the soil, caring for different animals, mechanics, and bookkeeping.  All sciences could be done through the ag department for the 4 years of high school so kids were prepared to help their parents' business.

[rose]

33 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I'm curious about this if you don't mind, since I'm not very familiar with Haiti or with subsistence farming.  But I was under the vague impression that knowledge about farming at this level was not something one learned how to do in school, but rather was passed down through the generations.  Children worked on the farm with their parents and learned on the job.  It seems like even uneducated subsistence farmers would know how to fertilize their soil with manure because that's been a practice for thousands of years.  What am I missing?  

I suppose that they may actually know that manure is good for the soil but they don't utilize this at all. Their animals are staked on communal grazing land during the growing season and then roughly allowed to wander wherever when the crops are harvested. They would do so much better to grow a small portion of their land for fodder, pen the animals and save the manure.

One thing about Haiti to consider is that the population is made entirely of the descendants of a massive slave revolt. The education from parent to child may have been severely disrupted by the years of slavery.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, rose said:

I suppose that they may actually know that manure is good for the soil but they don't utilize this at all. Their animals are staked on communal grazing land during the growing season and then roughly allowed to wander wherever when the crops are harvested. They would do so much better to grow a small portion of their land for fodder, pen the animals and save the manure.

Would they? That sounds like a lot more work.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Did you get the impression that even if someone offered the information about improving farming practices the people would be offended at outsiders trying to educate them?

Edited November 20, 2021 by JumpyTheFrog

[JumpyTheFrog]

4 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Would they? That sounds like a lot more work.

It probably is, but it seems fair to assume that they can't afford fertilizer either. I would also guess that letting the land go fallow isn't practiced either.

[rose]

4 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Would they? That sounds like a lot more work.

They are NOT doing well right now. Their land is practically infertile and the animals are sickly. The grazing land is stubble. They need to change or they will die off. It's very plain. I'm guessing you're probably hinting at what may seem like an imperialist mindset but I've been there. Corn should grow taller than 3 feet. Children should not have to suffer malnutrition. Something has to change. I'm looking to known ways of improving soil conditions and growing more food. It's not wrong to try to help a broken way of doing things. It's complicated and I may not know all of the ins and outs of their society and why they do things they way they do but something has to change. They need help from outside because they're suffering now.

[rose]

8 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

Did you get the impression that even if someone offered the information about improving farming practices the people would be offended at outsiders trying to educate them?

 

7 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

It probably is, but it seems fair to assume that they can't afford fertilizer either. I would also guess that letting the land go fallow isn't practiced either.

I think that if it's handled delicately they might accept the help. We're trying to restore the property that we bought in order to show them what can be done rather than just coming in and ramming our plans down their throats.

We're hoping to let some land go fallow help them see it without the cost. We're also thinking of asking if we can collect their bean plants after harvest before they burn them to add to some plot of land as a demonstration.

[Rosie_0801]

16 minutes ago, rose said:

They are NOT doing well right now. Their land is practically infertile and the animals are sickly. The grazing land is stubble. They need to change or they will die off. It's very plain. I'm guessing you're probably hinting at what may seem like an imperialist mindset but I've been there. Corn should grow taller than 3 feet. Children should not have to suffer malnutrition. Something has to change. I'm looking to known ways of improving soil conditions and growing more food. It's not wrong to try to help a broken way of doing things. It's complicated and I may not know all of the ins and outs of their society and why they do things they way they do but something has to change. They need help from outside because they're suffering now.

You guessed incorrectly.
I'm a traumatised person who has been reading a lot on regenerative agriculture, is all.

[rose]

4 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You guessed incorrectly.
I'm a traumatised person who has been reading a lot on regenerative agriculture, is all.

OK, I'm sorry. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what might be better.  Ultimately I think that reforestation would be ideal but that's a long term goal. We're slowly planting a food forest but the free ranging animals blindsided us this year after the harvest and ate all our efforts. It was very sad.

[Idalou]

42 minutes ago, rose said:

They are NOT doing well right now. Their land is practically infertile and the animals are sickly. The grazing land is stubble. They need to change or they will die off. It's very plain. I'm guessing you're probably hinting at what may seem like an imperialist mindset but I've been there. Corn should grow taller than 3 feet. Children should not have to suffer malnutrition. Something has to change. I'm looking to known ways of improving soil conditions and growing more food. It's not wrong to try to help a broken way of doing things. It's complicated and I may not know all of the ins and outs of their society and why they do things they way they do but something has to change. They need help from outside because they're suffering now.

 I think Haiti has horrible times with hurricanes that destroy crops and wash away topsoil, they've deforested a lot, and mountainous land isn't the best topography for farming, and they seem to always be in recovery from some devastating earthquake. Let's also not forget how the USA decimated their economy regarding rice production back in the 1990's. They are such a poverty stricken country that never gets a break. Why can agencies that give millions in aid not supply them with the proper fertilizers, maybe the manure from their own animals isn't even the correct formula their soil needs now?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Idalou

[Rosie_0801]

31 minutes ago, rose said:

OK, I'm sorry. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what might be better.  Ultimately I think that reforestation would be ideal but that's a long term goal. We're slowly planting a food forest but the free ranging animals blindsided us this year after the harvest and ate all our efforts. It was very sad.

I've never read anything that focused on the tropics, since I am a temperate zoned person, but the principles are going to be the same. Have you read anything on regenerative agriculture? In my part of the world, getting water to soak in tends to be the first priority. If you're on a mountain, keeping soil from washing down the hill is probably the top priority? Could terracing work? Are they eating native foods? I'd be thinking on how to make agriculture work with their free range animals because changing that is likely to be too hard and it might well be helping limit the amount of disease. It might seem stupid in such an impoverished context, but you'd have to have a thorough understanding of the *advantages* to whatever they do, before you could move forward. Change is effort and these are people who are already using what effort they have, so to make changes, whatever you do will have to feel like less effort and not eliminate the advantages they already have. Better the devil you know, and all that.

Huh. When you're done, you can write a book on trauma-informed agriculture. That'd be interesting.

[rose]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I've never read anything that focused on the tropics, since I am a temperate zoned person, but the principles are going to be the same. Have you read anything on regenerative agriculture? In my part of the world, getting water to soak in tends to be the first priority. If you're on a mountain, keeping soil from washing down the hill is probably the top priority? Could terracing work? Are they eating native foods? I'd be thinking on how to make agriculture work with their free range animals because changing that is likely to be too hard and it might well be helping limit the amount of disease.

I've read a reasonable amount about permaculture and I've read some about using green manure cover crops. The local people did respond well to us when we brought up our concerns about the animals. Not everyone does this (some continue to stake animals on the grazing land) but it's enough to hurt. They want us there so they said that they would work to keep the animals reigned in better. I suspect that this issue discourages the proactive people from planting anything other than the standard crops. Any reforestation efforts are just munched down by stray cows and donkeys. Maybe we can start something. We'll see. We might succumb to fencing but that's not our first choice.

[Rosie_0801]

Definitely expand your reading into regenerative ag, then. 'For the Love of Soil,’ by Nicole Masters should be a good place to start, but maybe someone's published something more geographically appropriate.

 

Is there anything native that is nice and prickly to build hedgerows out of? Bonus points if it grows something edible.

[Rosie_0801]

45 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Why can agencies that give millions in aid not supply them with the proper fertilizers, maybe the manure from their own animals isn't even the correct formula their soil needs now?

The "proper" fertilisers disrupt the mycelium networks and kill off the subterranean life. 

[rose]

29 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

The "proper" fertilisers disrupt the mycelium networks and kill off the subterranean life. 

I seriously doubt that there is much subterranean life left in some of their "fields". There's approximately no organic material left. They plough up (well actually pick up) 45 degree hillsides that are half rocks. They don't plough because they have too many rocks. it's really bad.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, rose said:

I seriously doubt that there is much subterranean life left in some of their "fields". There's approximately no organic material left. They plough up (well actually pick up) 45 degree hillsides that are half rocks. They don't plough because they have too many rocks. it's really bad.

Sounds dreadful.

I've read about several regenerative farmers who've given up ploughing, which also ruins mycelium networks, so perhaps there are better ways for your area too. There's probably something useful to do with rocks too, once you've extracted enough. Could they be used to build retaining walls for terraces? 

Could this guy's vids about swales help? https://www.youtube.com/c/TheWeedyGarden They've been on my 'to watch' list, and you've just inspired me to get around to watching them. 😄

I know nothing about the mountains of Haiti but making use of what you've got is always cheaper than whatever you have to buy in. It just takes longer.

Other than corn, which you've mentioned, what are the standard crops?

[Frances]

3 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Now you have me wondering if my own education was different, because I do have this expectation.  I grew up in a farming community.  My elementary school was designed to have classroom gardens, and by high school we had an entire working farm & agriculture department with classes covering everything from balancing the soil, caring for different animals, mechanics, and bookkeeping.  All sciences could be done through the ag department for the 4 years of high school so kids were prepared to help their parents' business.

Interesting. I too grew up in a rural farming area and my high school didn’t have a single agricultural course.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, rose said:

They are NOT doing well right now. Their land is practically infertile and the animals are sickly. The grazing land is stubble. They need to change or they will die off. It's very plain. I'm guessing you're probably hinting at what may seem like an imperialist mindset but I've been there. Corn should grow taller than 3 feet. Children should not have to suffer malnutrition. Something has to change. I'm looking to known ways of improving soil conditions and growing more food. It's not wrong to try to help a broken way of doing things. It's complicated and I may not know all of the ins and outs of their society and why they do things they way they do but something has to change. They need help from outside because they're suffering now.

But are there not a variety different organizations there now helping them? Peace Corps, international NGOs, various mission groups, etc.? I’ve certainly read about lots of different aid organizations working in Haiti.

[rose]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

But are there not a variety different organizations there now helping them? Peace Corps, international NGOs, various mission groups, etc.? I’ve certainly read about lots of different aid organizations working in Haiti.

There were but most have pulled out because of the recent instability in the country. A lot of the organizations that are there or who were there had set up at sea level in the cities. The mountain people are really without even gov't help. I'm not even sure the police would come if there was a murder in some of the mountains. Where we are set we are the only white people for a long ways. The children run out when they spot us and laugh and yell, "Blan!" It's very cute.

[rose]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Sounds dreadful.

I've read about several regenerative farmers who've given up ploughing, which also ruins mycelium networks, so perhaps there are better ways for your area too. There's probably something useful to do with rocks too, once you've extracted enough. Could they be used to build retaining walls for terraces? 

Could this guy's vids about swales help? https://www.youtube.com/c/TheWeedyGarden They've been on my 'to watch' list, and you've just inspired me to get around to watching them. 😄

I know nothing about the mountains of Haiti but making use of what you've got is always cheaper than whatever you have to buy in. It just takes longer.

Other than corn, which you've mentioned, what are the standard crops?

Thanks for the video suggestion. I'll have to watch that.

Other than corn--beans, squash, sweet potatoes, bananas, pigeon peas and chayotes are the primary crops. There are few other insignificant thing that they add here and there but that's about it. The lack of variety really surprised me because I had spent some time in rural Mexico before and they had tons of variety.

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, rose said:

Other than corn--beans, squash, sweet potatoes, bananas, pigeon peas and chayotes are the primary crops. There are few other insignificant thing that they add here and there but that's about it. The lack of variety really surprised me because I had spent some time in rural Mexico before and they had tons of variety.

There must be local herbs or something? Maybe that knowledge has been lost or fell out of fashion for some reason.

[rose]

12 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

There must be local herbs or something? Maybe that knowledge has been lost or fell out of fashion for some reason.

I've seen wild thyme and I bought a green called "Lyann Panye" which I've had quite a bit of difficulty identifying because I haven't yet seen it flower. It's tasty though. I planted some.

[Xahm]

Good luck! When my husband was in Iraq, he was part of security for some organization trying to provide loans/grants for Iraqi farmers. They were supposed to get together with 3 or 4 neighbors to form a little co-op, because then they would have enough money from the loan to buy the big equipment they needed and could share it around. Unfortunately, they didn't get many takers. The collapse of the government and justice system meant that if one of them cheated, there was no way to take legal recourse. There wasn't enough trust in systems or their neighbors, so they stayed in worse conditions. It doesn't make sense in the surface, but looking at their whole situation, it did make sad sense. I would suspect there's some of that going on in Haiti. Partly lack of education but partly a situation that isn't safe enough to take any risks.

[bookbard]

I've done international community work before, though not in agriculture. It has always begun with asking 'what do you want?' rather than going in with a particular expectation. The most immediate need might not be what you expect. If the local community take full ownership, you don't need to be there for it to go on. I helped start a program 20 years ago which is still running because the local people owned it. 

[ieta_cassiopeia]

I've seen a book about permaculture from Timor-Leste called "The Tropical Permaculture Guide" but can't speak to how relevant it is to Haiti.

[rose]

8 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

I've seen a book about permaculture from Timor-Leste called "The Tropical Permaculture Guide" but can't speak to how relevant it is to Haiti.

Thanks! It's on my to-read list.

[goldenecho]

Good point about unschooling depending on a certain amount of access.   But then you have kids like the one in "The Boy Who Harnessed the Wind" who managed it with just a mediocre local library (which is more access than none but a lot less than most people in the US have).   So, maybe with a few exceptional kids unschooling could work with much less.   Even here I think unschooling's success depends somewhat on the child.

My oldest probably could have been unschooled (he was always in public school and now is in a very self-paced 3D animation mentorship program).   He's always wanted to learn and explore, and while there may have been some gaps in important knowledge/skills if his learning were totally up to him, he would have learned a lot regardless.

My 2nd born is an amazing student (also in public school).  He thrives working for grades, and is proud of his work, but doesn't "want" to learn much without that extrinsic motivation.

For my youngest, unschooling would have been a very bad fit.   He struggled a lot due to dylexia and ADHD.   He had interests in things but didn't have the desire to do anything that was at all hard for a long time, and due to those learning challenges EVERYTHING was hard.    Later he did start getting more motivated to learn and actually wanting to do things and not just giving up right away...but I feel like without the push to get through the basic skills necessary to make it a little easier to learn, he may not have gotten to that place (and even now he still sometimes has trouble with sticking with it...but at least now he gives it a good start and makes the effort for a good while before petering out). 


 

Edited November 23, 2021 by goldenecho

[kiwik]

On 11/20/2021 at 5:21 PM, Frances said:

Interesting. I too grew up in a rural farming area and my high school didn’t have a single agricultural course.

I grew up with n a agricultural/horticultural area and the only classes were elective ones available in the last 4 years of high school.

[bibiche]

On 11/20/2021 at 12:10 AM, rose said:

I've seen wild thyme and I bought a green called "Lyann Panye" which I've had quite a bit of difficulty identifying because I haven't yet seen it flower. It's tasty though. I planted some.

It’s Chamissoa altissima.

[Ellie]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:23 PM, rose said:

All of these observations got me thinking about unschooling in Canada and the US. How does it ever work? How do people end up even remotely educated? The conclusion that I came to is that we're just so rich here that knowledge is everywhere. Intentional education is better but unschooling sort-of works when children are in a rich enough environment. Count your blessings.

Unschooling is not uneducating or unlearning. Unschoolers could absolutely learn to farm the land with crop rotation and all the things. Unschoolers seek out information. They don't just let things fall into their heads. 🙂

[rose]

5 hours ago, bibiche said:

It’s Chamissoa altissima.

Thanks!  That's been my main suspicion. I just don't like confirming plants by their leave with internet pictures.

[maize]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:33 PM, rose said:

Thanks for the video suggestion. I'll have to watch that.

Other than corn--beans, squash, sweet potatoes, bananas, pigeon peas and chayotes are the primary crops. There are few other insignificant thing that they add here and there but that's about it. The lack of variety really surprised me because I had spent some time in rural Mexico before and they had tons of variety.

Do they eat the sweat potato greens? That's been found in some studies to significantly improve nutritional profiles for impoverished peoples.

[rose]

21 hours ago, maize said:

Do they eat the sweat potato greens? That's been found in some studies to significantly improve nutritional profiles for impoverished peoples.

Interesting, I'm not sure. They do eat the chayote greens, watercress and parsley so I know that they're not adverse to eating greens. I'll have to look into that.

[Ausmumof3]

I think in Australia, we’re learning to be careful about assuming that modern farming methods are always better.  You can drastically improve productivity in the short term while actually destroying the soil in the long term (and causing bigger issues with fire and flood due to inappropriate land management). I can’t speak to the situation in Haiti of course.  
 

That’s not an anti science perspective - science has a lot to add to agriculture and food production but with care.

[Carol in Cal.]

Can a reasonable permaculture for the area be modeled on neighboring Dominican Republic flora and fauna?

[Melissa in Australia]

I remember seeing a very interesting g documentary about changing farming in a small area of Ethiopia. I think it can be viewed on YouTube. It was mostly about empowering the locals to make changes. 

[Melissa in Australia]

another thing, some types of sweetcorn does in fact only grow 3 feet high. it is the variety. I know when I went to Canada ( a very long time ago) I was impressed with how tall the corn grew there. I had never seen sweetcorn so high before , only maze grows that high here. different climatic conditions, different varieties are grown.  I live in an area where seed corn is grown and mostly it is around 5 feet tall, but there are some varieties that are grown that are only 3 feet tall and have cobs of a surprisingly big size. I myself have grown sweetcorn that only grows to that height before.