Dr. Julie Ponesse, professor of ethics, fired for refusing mandated vaccine

[pinball]

 

[Dmmetler]

 I know way too many US  faculty who are really bending over backwards to try to accommodate students and are being treated like dirt by the students, their institutions, and the states their schools are in to have ANY sympathy for someone who is refusing a vaccine mandate in a situation where one case can so easily spread due to dormitory housing and dining halls, as past meningitis and measles outbreaks have shown. If she feels that she cannot take the COVID vaccine, she is free to seek employment elsewhere. I have little doubt that Western U will have no trouble filling her position with an Ethics professor who is relieved to be in a place with a vaccine mandate-if there isn't one available in Canada, there will be lots of US folks sending in their CV's. 

 

[catz]

That was an interesting speech. But quite a bit more simplistic and containing logical fallacies than I would have expected from a prof of ethics.  It conveniently avoided the ethics of having covid vulnerable individuals on campus while a pandemic is raging.  It also completely ignored published data on the efficacy and risks of covid vaccines vs those of contracting covid.   The tone hints at conspiracy theory beliefs.  Campuses have been hot spots and often involve group housing situations.  I'm sure a college administration takes no joy in getting rid of long time teachers. But frankly it's a liability for campuses, many that are struggling financially now, to not require vaccination at this time.  It's a liability for surrounding communities as well.

The campus made a hard choice.  She made a hard choice.  Hardly news worthy.  I'm sure both will land on their feet.  The fact is that faculty jobs at colleges are highly, highly competitive.  There will a mile long line for a vaccine required job before she has her office packed.  I would hope their next prof would apply a bit more logic to an argument.  

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[WildflowerMom]

While I do not agree with forced vaccinations in many cases, this particular school says no one has been fired.    🤷🏻‍♀️

"school officials say is untrue. “No one at Huron has been dismissed as a result of this policy,” officials said in a statement sent to The Free Press."

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/anti-covid-vaccine-professor-rips-western-university-ahead-of-peoples-party-rally/wcm/2ac1088b-a168-4aa4-9004-3edfed4223b3

[SeaConquest]

[TheReader]

Do schools in Canada not require vaccines of their students? I'm curious since she says she's never in her life been mandated to take a vaccine, and they were all her choice. Did she wait until adulthood to start receiving vaccines? 

Do the universities in Canada not require the meningitis vaccine, for students or employees? (for that matter, I wonder if the universities here require them of employees the way they do of students....I'm not sure)

Does Canada have access to the Pfizer vaccine, which now has full approval (although, of course, that's here in the US, not sure about Canadian approval processes), and if so, would that satisfy her, I wonder, since it would no longer be an experimental vaccine? (I so wonder if all the folks using that as their reason will go ahead and get the shot now that it's fully approved....)

Perhaps I'm looking at this from a different point of view, but here, public schools require a host of childhood vaccines for enrollment, the universities require the meningitis vaccine, employers of many types require flu shots, TB test, and others......mandating vaccines isn't unique to Covid, in a lot of settings, and I have no problem with the Covid vaccine (once fully approved) being added to those existing lists of mandated vaccines. 

I'm also in a "right to work" state (I think that's the term) which pretty much means you can be let go from your job for pretty much any reason, so if your employer makes a new rule, and you choose not to follow it, you can be fired. And frankly, that's just natural consequences....if you choose not to follow the rules of your place of employment, even if they are new rules and you have been a model employee for 20 years, then you are choosing to be employed elsewhere.  I highly doubt, though she keeps saying it was "sudden" that she got an email one day and couldn't come to work the next, although of course I don't know for sure. In cases here, employees were given roughly a month, I believe, to get the first dose of the shot before firings would start. Maybe longer....? Anyway, not exactly "sudden" even if it was recent, as vaccine availability grew. 

[WildflowerMom]

Just now, TheReader said:

Do schools in Canada not require vaccines of their students? I'm curious since she says she's never in her life been mandated to take a vaccine, and they were all her choice. Did she wait until adulthood to start receiving vaccines? 

Do the universities in Canada not require the meningitis vaccine, for students or employees? (for that matter, I wonder if the universities here require them of employees the way they do of students....I'm not sure)

Does Canada have access to the Pfizer vaccine, which now has full approval (although, of course, that's here in the US, not sure about Canadian approval processes), and if so, would that satisfy her, I wonder, since it would no longer be an experimental vaccine? (I so wonder if all the folks using that as their reason will go ahead and get the shot now that it's fully approved....)

Perhaps I'm looking at this from a different point of view, but here, public schools require a host of childhood vaccines for enrollment, the universities require the meningitis vaccine, employers of many types require flu shots, TB test, and others......mandating vaccines isn't unique to Covid, in a lot of settings, and I have no problem with the Covid vaccine (once fully approved) being added to those existing lists of mandated vaccines. 

I'm also in a "right to work" state (I think that's the term) which pretty much means you can be let go from your job for pretty much any reason, so if your employer makes a new rule, and you choose not to follow it, you can be fired. And frankly, that's just natural consequences....if you choose not to follow the rules of your place of employment, even if they are new rules and you have been a model employee for 20 years, then you are choosing to be employed elsewhere.  I highly doubt, though she keeps saying it was "sudden" that she got an email one day and couldn't come to work the next, although of course I don't know for sure. In cases here, employees were given roughly a month, I believe, to get the first dose of the shot before firings would start. Maybe longer....? Anyway, not exactly "sudden" even if it was recent, as vaccine availability grew. 

I wondered the same thing.   Here in the US, her students would be 'forced' to be vaxxed, even before covid.  

my guess is this was a publicity stunt and she's trying to summon up some 'likes' before she starts a book tour or something.    

[pinball]

Well, she’s not listed on the philosophy dept website nor is she listed as teaching any classes this semester…and she was listed on prior years as having taught…

[Laura Corin]

12 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I wondered the same thing.   Here in the US, her students would be 'forced' to be vaxxed, even before covid.  
 

I don't know about Canada, but childhood vaccinations are not required for school in the UK. And universities recommend but don't require meningitis jabs  - or Covid ones.

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, pinball said:

Well, she’s not listed on the philosophy dept website nor is she listed as teaching any classes this semester…and she was listed on prior years as having taught…

 

[historically accurate]

23 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Do schools in Canada not require vaccines of their students? I'm curious since she says she's never in her life been mandated to take a vaccine, and they were all her choice. Did she wait until adulthood to start receiving vaccines? 

Do the universities in Canada not require the meningitis vaccine, for students or employees? (for that matter, I wonder if the universities here require them of employees the way they do of students....I'm not sure)

Does Canada have access to the Pfizer vaccine, which now has full approval (although, of course, that's here in the US, not sure about Canadian approval processes), and if so, would that satisfy her, I wonder, since it would no longer be an experimental vaccine? (I so wonder if all the folks using that as their reason will go ahead and get the shot now that it's fully approved....)

Perhaps I'm looking at this from a different point of view, but here, public schools require a host of childhood vaccines for enrollment, the universities require the meningitis vaccine, employers of many types require flu shots, TB test, and others......mandating vaccines isn't unique to Covid, in a lot of settings, and I have no problem with the Covid vaccine (once fully approved) being added to those existing lists of mandated vaccines. 

I'm also in a "right to work" state (I think that's the term) which pretty much means you can be let go from your job for pretty much any reason, so if your employer makes a new rule, and you choose not to follow it, you can be fired. And frankly, that's just natural consequences....if you choose not to follow the rules of your place of employment, even if they are new rules and you have been a model employee for 20 years, then you are choosing to be employed elsewhere.  I highly doubt, though she keeps saying it was "sudden" that she got an email one day and couldn't come to work the next, although of course I don't know for sure. In cases here, employees were given roughly a month, I believe, to get the first dose of the shot before firings would start. Maybe longer....? Anyway, not exactly "sudden" even if it was recent, as vaccine availability grew. 

I found this for Ontario:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/vaccines-children-school

 

There are mandatory (barring medical, conscience, or religious exemptions) vaccines for schoolchildren. How the exemptions work is on the same page.

 

[WildflowerMom]

13 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I don't know about Canada, but childhood vaccinations are not required for school in the UK. And universities recommend but don't require meningitis jabs  - or Covid ones.

They do require them here, although I think it's possible they'll accept a religious exemption.  And yes, meningitis especially in college. 

[pinball]

20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

She’s not on undergraduate

[wathe]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

Do schools in Canada not require vaccines of their students? I'm curious since she says she's never in her life been mandated to take a vaccine, and they were all her choice. Did she wait until adulthood to start receiving vaccines? 

Do the universities in Canada not require the meningitis vaccine, for students or employees? (for that matter, I wonder if the universities here require them of employees the way they do of students....I'm not sure)

Does Canada have access to the Pfizer vaccine, which now has full approval (although, of course, that's here in the US, not sure about Canadian approval processes), and if so, would that satisfy her, I wonder, since it would no longer be an experimental vaccine? (I so wonder if all the folks using that as their reason will go ahead and get the shot now that it's fully approved....)

Perhaps I'm looking at this from a different point of view, but here, public schools require a host of childhood vaccines for enrollment, the universities require the meningitis vaccine, employers of many types require flu shots, TB test, and others......mandating vaccines isn't unique to Covid, in a lot of settings, and I have no problem with the Covid vaccine (once fully approved) being added to those existing lists of mandated vaccines. 

I'm also in a "right to work" state (I think that's the term) which pretty much means you can be let go from your job for pretty much any reason, so if your employer makes a new rule, and you choose not to follow it, you can be fired. And frankly, that's just natural consequences....if you choose not to follow the rules of your place of employment, even if they are new rules and you have been a model employee for 20 years, then you are choosing to be employed elsewhere.  I highly doubt, though she keeps saying it was "sudden" that she got an email one day and couldn't come to work the next, although of course I don't know for sure. In cases here, employees were given roughly a month, I believe, to get the first dose of the shot before firings would start. Maybe longer....? Anyway, not exactly "sudden" even if it was recent, as vaccine availability grew. 

Vaccines are required for school children aged 4-17 to attend primary and secondary school as per the Immunization of school pupils act.  Meningitis vaccine is one of the required vaccines.

Vaccines (including meningitis) for post secondary are generally recommendations rather than a requirement.  But since most, including meningitis vaccine, were required for school pre-university, it's not been a big issue, I don't think.  Certain post-secondary programs require vaccines (ie medical school).  The province has made covid vaccine policies mandatory in all high risk settings including post-secondary institutions,  announced Aug 17.  Note that mandating vaccine policies isn't quite the same thing as mandating vaccines, though most universities are interpreting it that way., based on strong recommendation in this letter from the combined chief medical officers of health for the province. .  Western's covid vax policy does indeed have a hard Sept 7 deadline.

Pfizer is available here, and has Health Canada approval.  As does Moderna.  And Astra-Zeneca.

[wathe]

Total tangent, but I love Ontario's medical officers of health (not sure what the USA equivalent would be, county health department leader).  They've been the true leaders here during this pandemic.  More so than our elected government.   They've been one step ahead the whole time, and used their influence to get the government to to the right things.  Individually (and sometimes collectively) they've written public health unit orders like mask mandates and closing school, then the province feels the pressure and followed suit sometime later.  They are a ballsy bunch.  Shout out to Charles Gardner (Simcoe Muskoka), Lawrence Loh (Peel) and Eileen de Villa (Toronto) especially.  The letter to post-secondary institutions linked in my previous post is a good example.

ETA:  In the last couple of weeks, when our province was waffling on vaccine passports, Lawrence Loh went to the media with a plan to make vaccine passports for his own health unit.  The province capitulated and announced provincal passports within a week.  

It's been the pattern for the whole pandemic.  Province waffles, health units act (L. Loh as been an amazing leader) and the province falls in line.

Edited September 8, 2021 by wathe

[Spy Car]

Good. A person who refuses to vaccinate during a deadly pandemic is the wrong person to be teaching ethics.

Bill

[bookbard]

I'm curious about places that require vaccination for schooling. What happens if they don't get vaccinated? In Australia, you can't attend preschool if you're not vaccinated (which I think is unfair on the kid), but they can't require them for school, because you have to go to school. 

The only time I've had to be vaccinated has been for overseas travel - there were certain vaccines you needed to show on entry to certain countries. 

[wathe]

I should add, that this pandemic has been really hard on our conservative, somewhat populist elected provincial government.  They are pro-personal choice, pro-business  (big and small), pro-individualism.   None of that works in a pandemic.  Every necessary pandemic restriction has been so hard for them to come around to.  I actually feel a little badly for them.  I'm sure that the daily cognitive dissonance of ideology vs necessary pandemic  action must be really, really uncomfortable.

ETA: To their credit, they mostly come around and do the right things.  But it's so obviously painful for them to do it.

Edited September 8, 2021 by wathe

[wathe]

10 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I'm curious about places that require vaccination for schooling. What happens if they don't get vaccinated? In Australia, you can't attend preschool if you're not vaccinated (which I think is unfair on the kid), but they can't require them for school, because you have to go to school. 

The only time I've had to be vaccinated has been for overseas travel - there were certain vaccines you needed to show on entry to certain countries. 

Suspension.

You can exempt your child from the vaccine requirement by filling out a form that exempts you base on conscience or religious belief, and attending an education session.

So, not a very toothy law.  

Even with an exemption, your child can be suspended during outbreaks or of the risk of outbreak is high.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by wathe

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, bookbard said:

I'm curious about places that require vaccination for schooling. What happens if they don't get vaccinated? In Australia, you can't attend preschool if you're not vaccinated (which I think is unfair on the kid), but they can't require them for school, because you have to go to school. 

The only time I've had to be vaccinated has been for overseas travel - there were certain vaccines you needed to show on entry to certain countries. 

My US state does require certain immunizations for school.  There are exemptions available - in some case this includes philosophical and religious exemptions.  In the case of measles, the only exemption allowed is for medical reasons (which must be documented by a doctor).  If a pupil is in the process of getting in compliance they have a "temporary exemption" and can attend school.  If they fail to complete the immunizations within the allowed time, then they are not allowed to continue in school.  I looked over the laws and I don't see any language to say what should happen then.  Private school perhaps?  Homeschooling? 

[melmichigan]

Our local CC just dismissed a professor for the very same reason.  It's a "right to work" state and they mandated vaccines. 🤷‍♀️

[Pam in CT]

IANAL, and this is a *bit* of a tangent off topic; but I believe the relevant term for prevailing US labor policy, to this point, is "at-will employment."  Employers hire and fire at their will, and aside from proven discrimination based on a handful of legally protected classes, can fire for any reason or no reason.  Disinclination to vaccinate is not among the short list of legally protected classes.

"Right to work" refers to a different US labor policy prevailing in many states -- that unions cannot require employees to pay dues.

Both practices tend to serve employers' interests -- "at will" allows ease/speed of firing and "right to work" prevents the sort of collective action that could bargain for termination and other benefits when firing or layoffs occur... but they're not quite the same.

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

IANAL, and this is a *bit* of a tangent off topic; but I believe the relevant term for prevailing US labor policy, to this point, is "at-will employment."  Employers hire and fire at their will, and aside from proven discrimination based on a handful of legally protected classes, can fire for any reason or no reason.  Disinclination to vaccinate is not among the short list of legally protected classes.

"Right to work" refers to a different US labor policy prevailing in many states -- that unions cannot require employees to pay dues.

Both practices tend to serve employers' interests -- "at will" allows ease/speed of firing and "right to work" prevents the sort of collective action that could bargain for termination and other benefits when firing or layoffs occur... but they're not quite the same.

I'd never heard the term at-will employment before.  Turns out it doesn't exist in Canada.

[TheReader]

59 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I'm curious about places that require vaccination for schooling. What happens if they don't get vaccinated? In Australia, you can't attend preschool if you're not vaccinated (which I think is unfair on the kid), but they can't require them for school, because you have to go to school. 

The only time I've had to be vaccinated has been for overseas travel - there were certain vaccines you needed to show on entry to certain countries. 

In Texas, there are exemptions (religious, medical) and they're relatively easy to come by, honestly. The only one that I know that really isn't is the required meningitis vaccine for college/university. 

I've no idea what happens if one doesn't provide an exemption form, *and* doesn't get the vaccines. 

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

IANAL, and this is a *bit* of a tangent off topic; but I believe the relevant term for prevailing US labor policy, to this point, is "at-will employment."  Employers hire and fire at their will, and aside from proven discrimination based on a handful of legally protected classes, can fire for any reason or no reason.  Disinclination to vaccinate is not among the short list of legally protected classes.

"Right to work" refers to a different US labor policy prevailing in many states -- that unions cannot require employees to pay dues.

Both practices tend to serve employers' interests -- "at will" allows ease/speed of firing and "right to work" prevents the sort of collective action that could bargain for termination and other benefits when firing or layoffs occur... but they're not quite the same.

Oh, thank you! I knew the term didn't feel exactly right, but I couldn't think what it was actually called. I appreciate you clarifying/correcting that. 

 

[melmichigan]

Thanks for the correction @Pam in CT.  The professor at our college didn't even apply for an exemption, they just didn't agree with the policy because they are currently teaching online.  

[Scarlett]

Ugh.you all are too kind.   All I could think is ‘what an idiot’. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't have an issue with her deciding to refuse the vaccine.  But she knew the consequence for that.  They shouldn't have had to fire her in order to enforce it - she should have taken her consequence as part of her decision, and resigned.  That's the ethical thing to do.  (In my opinion, of course.)

Edited September 9, 2021 by Jean in Newcastle
added "and resigned"

[Scarlett]

So many things ….she called it an experimental vaccine.  It is not.  
 

 

[KSera]

3 hours ago, TheReader said:

In Texas, there are exemptions (religious, medical) and they're relatively easy to come by, honestly. The only one that I know that really isn't is the required meningitis vaccine for college/university. 

I've no idea what happens if one doesn't provide an exemption form, *and* doesn't get the vaccines. 

I don’t know about when someone doesn’t turn in any form whatsoever, but most places, when someone does have an exemption, part of that exemption is the understanding that the person will be excluded in the case of an outbreak of the disease they are not vaccinated against. My kid who didn’t have a measles vaccine when they went to preschool would have needed to stay at home had there been a measles outbreak at the school. Which makes perfect sense to me and I would have gone along with that without complaint had it happened. This seems like it would be just the same, with the difference that we are currently in the middle of an outbreak of the disease in question, meaning that those without the vaccine are excluded until the outbreak is over.

[bookbard]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

when someone does have an exemption, part of that exemption is the understanding that the person will be excluded in the case of an outbreak of the disease they are not vaccinated against.

Yes we have that in Australia too, which is fair enough. 

They also made it that you couldn't get a certain payment if your child wasn't vaccinated. Apparently vaccination rates rose a lot after that. 

I just asked a friend who is a nurse in a large Sydney hospital about vaccination - she said there are 3 nurses out of the whole lot who have refused vaccination, and they are not allowed to work. I read today that at least 50% of jobs will have a similar rule - I guess that's health, education, other government jobs.

[mathnerd]

7 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

I wondered the same thing.   Here in the US, her students would be 'forced' to be vaxxed, even before covid.  

my guess is this was a publicity stunt and she's trying to summon up some 'likes' before she starts a book tour or something.    

Or might have gotten a job offer from a certain TV network and used this as a way to go out with a bang and start her new job with high viewership ratings … my cynicism has reached new levels after seeing the extent of selfishness during this pandemic from people who don’t care about the welfare of their fellow man.

[Laura Corin]

8 hours ago, wathe said:

I should add, that this pandemic has been really hard on our conservative, somewhat populist elected provincial government.  They are pro-personal choice, pro-business  (big and small), pro-individualism.   None of that works in a pandemic.  Every necessary pandemic restriction has been so hard for them to come around to.  I actually feel a little badly for them.  I'm sure that the daily cognitive dissonance of ideology vs necessary pandemic  action must be really, really uncomfortable.

ETA: To their credit, they mostly come around and do the right things.  But it's so obviously painful for them to do it.

I thought this was an interesting speech on this issue by Zahawi. Going against his beliefs in extraordinary times

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-vaccine-passports-nightclubs-england-b1916364.html

[Guest]

6 hours ago, mathnerd said:

Or might have gotten a job offer from a certain TV network and used this as a way to go out with a bang and start her new job with high viewership ratings … my cynicism has reached new levels after seeing the extent of selfishness during this pandemic from people who don’t care about the welfare of their fellow man.

Oooh…I didn’t hear about this. If you don’t mind, send me a PM about who this was. 

[RootAnn]

I mean, good for her with sticking to her beliefs. 

I did disagree with saying all the vaccines are experimental. That's no longer the case. So I felt her ethical argument could have been stronger.

I did agree when she pointed out that no one is saying she won't get or transmit Covid after the vaccine. (None are even 100% for protection against serious infection or death, so this was never the case.) 

Is her job low risk? Is she teaching all online?

I didn't really get the "multiple choice" nature of the last question. To me, that's a yes/no question which is different than multiple choice.

I hope her normal classes were less sloppy with wording & arguments.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Decisions have consequences. That’s kind of a foundational principle in ethics. Her decision not to get vaccinated could cost her life or at least her health down the road. (Not wishing it on her. Just saying that that can be a natural consequence of a contagious viral disease. ). The school is ethically just in trying to protect the overall health of its staff, faculty and students in the midst of a pandemic . 
 

She has a choice. To support their public health requirements or to leave and go elsewhere. I support her choice. I do not support her reasoning. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Jean in Newcastle

[TheReader]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Decisions have consequences. That’s kind of a foundational principle in ethics. Her decision not to get vaccinated could cost her life or at least her health down the road. (Not wishing it on her. Just saying that that can be a natural consequence of a contagious viral disease. ). The school is ethically just in trying to protect the overall health of its staff, faculty and students. 
 

She has a choice. To support their public health requirements or to leave and go elsewhere. I support her choice. I do not support her reasoning. 

Yes, this. 

Not only that, but also I don't support her further choice to portray the University as the Bad Guy who fired her unjustly. They laid out their policy. She chose not to comply.  No employee on the planet can just choose to flaunt the requirements of their employer and remain employed there. No employer on the planet should have to retain an employee who violates their guidelines. 

If she is going to make the choice to remain unvaccinated, then she has to accept all of the consequences of same -- the immediate consequence of losing her employment, not just the potential, theoretical consequences of endangering her health/life. 

I wonder what she says to students who do poorly in her class due to not turning things in?  Does she take on the role of Bad Guy who Failed Them (which they may try and say), or does she (rightly so) point out/remind them that their actions/inactions in not turning in work directly resulted in their bad grade in the course? I can't really imagine a college professor saying "Oh, you're right, I was so wrong to fail you because you chose not to do the work required for the course....nevermind, let me go ahead and pass you, because you're right, I can't coerce you into doing something you don't want to do....how unethical of me......" 

[pinball]

Coercion is not a choice.

It is immoral to coerce someone into a medical procedure.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No one is holding her down and forcing a needle into her.  She has lots of employment opportunities elsewhere.  It may or may not be in her field, but she's not entitled to that. 

[TheReader]

17 minutes ago, pinball said:

Coercion is not a choice.

It is immoral to coerce someone into a medical procedure.

But employers can make requirements, much like schools can. Dress code. Tardiness policy. No smoking in the office. No coming to work sick. No drugs. 

And schools, including those in Canada that the professor in this video would have attended as a child, have long required vaccines as a prerequisite for attendance -- there is precedence, including there in Canada, for requiring vaccines in educational settings.  Several posters shared the links to those. 

Coercion would be if the university took her to the doctor and stood over her and made her receive the vaccine against her wishes. They did not do that, and are not doing that. 

They are exercising their right to protect the health of the students & faculty by requiring everyone to take preventative measures against a massive outbreak of a pandemic-level virus that's currently hospitalizing and killing folks by the thousands. 

She is exercising her right to abstain from a vaccine that her health minister and employer and province have all decided is necessary. 

But just as she can require (coerce) students to do a set list of assignments in order to pass her class, and if they do not comply (by choice), she is able to assign the failing grade that they earned......and likewise, her employer is able to fire her when she refuses to comply with the vaccine mandate. It doesn't become coercion until someone is dragging her off to get the shot against her will. Until then, it's just accepting the natural consequences of her choice.

[TheReader]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

No one is holding her down and forcing a needle into her.  She has lots of employment opportunities elsewhere.  It may or may not be in her field, but she's not entitled to that. 

Much  more succinctly said. I should have waited, LOL! 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Entitled people whine when there are consequences for their actions. . .

[KSera]

I don't know if we were supposed to take this woman's reasoning as being superior because she's an ethics professor, but I haven't held ethics professors to any high standards ever since bio-ethicist Peter Singer became famous in the 90s for his assertion that newborns shouldn't be considered full persons until they are 30 days old and they should be able to be "euthanized" during that time, particularly if disabled. Like any field, there are good and bad ones.

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Coercion is not a choice.

It is immoral to coerce someone into a medical procedure.

It's also immoral to go around spreading a potentially lethal disease. Wear a mask and get vaccinated. If you can't do your part to end the pandemic, then don't expect the rest of us, who are doing are our part, to tolerate your selfish and entitled behavior any longer. We are so DONE coddling these people.

[Dmmetler]

 

[KSera]

33 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

It's also immoral to go around spreading a potentially lethal disease. Wear a mask and get vaccinated. If you can't do your part to end the pandemic, then don't expect the rest of us, who are doing are our part, to tolerate your selfish and entitled behavior any longer. We are so DONE coddling these people.

I'm tired of hearing the threats from people that nurses shouldn't be required to be vaccinated, because then they will quit and we can't afford to make the nursing shortage any worse than it is. How about we turn that responsibility around on the people actually causing it? Tell those nurses they need to get themselves vaccinated because we can't afford for the nursing shortage to be worse than it is (and get everyone else vaccinated while you're at it, so that the hospitals won't be so overwhelmed and the staff so overworked). This is all happening via people's choices. We're in the middle of a pandemic. I'm not sure why some people think we shouldn't expect everyone to bear some responsibility to get out of it.

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

And a reply to that one from one of her colleagues in the ethics department at Western:

His whole short thread in response is good. I'll quote just one piece:

 

[PaxEtLux]

There's probably, what? 1,000 professors of ethics and related subjects in North America?  Isn't the real story here 999/1,000 ethics professor have no problem with vaccine mandates?

[Danae]

36 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

There's probably, what? 1,000 professors of ethics and related subjects in North America?  Isn't the real story here 999/1,000 ethics professor have no problem with vaccine mandates?

Way more than that. 

[Faith-manor]

Too many snowflakes think choices come with zero consequences. Poor baby found out the hard way that this is not true. One would have expected an ethics professor to know this, but apparently she has missed the memos life has been sending her.

[mathnerd]

5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

We are so DONE coddling these people.

As an aside, until about a month ago, I was hesitant to even use the terms anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and anti-science in order to not offend. My young niece who is a Pediatric ICU doctor pointed out that this attitude of mine amounts to coddling of people who cause deliberate harm to others and disrupt the lives of others. That is why I decided to call a spade a spade and use the proper terms when I speak of them.

@SeaConquestthank you for your service and good luck on your job interviews for those ICU positions.

Edited September 9, 2021 by mathnerd
grammar!