Josh Duggar Again

[Katy]

The federal court will be interviewing children in his case.

[Melissa Louise]

Edited.

Got sucked in by incomplete news. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[HeartString]

I thought he was only accused of looking at child abuse materials purchased anonymously on the internet, presumably made using children that he never had contact with.  If that’s right then this seems like an escalation in charges, is that correct? 

[TravelingChris]

Good

 

[Corraleno]

So... does this imply that he wasn't just downloading stuff created by others — he was actually molesting children or creating material himself?

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

So... does this imply that he wasn't just downloading stuff created by others — he was actually molesting children or creating material himself?

This.  Or maybe grooming children by showing them these materials?

[Ottakee]

28 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I thought he was only accused of looking at child abuse materials purchased anonymously on the internet, presumably made using children that he never had contact with.  If that’s right then this seems like an escalation in charges, is that correct? 

Yes, an escalation in charges.   Depending on if the children were involved in the on line videos/pictures or not, some things might be sent back to local courts for state charges.  Then again, if they have enough on him, it likely won't make a difference as the federal charges could hold 50-90+ years of prison time.  In my ex husband's case, he got 90 years of federal time so they didn't do the state charges.  That saved the victims from having to testify again and in even more detail than they did in federal court.

[HeartString]

1 minute ago, Ottakee said:

Yes, an escalation in charges.   Depending on if the children were involved in the on line videos/pictures or not, some things might be sent back to local courts for state charges.  Then again, if they have enough on him, it likely won't make a difference as the federal charges could hold 50-90+ years of prison time.  In my ex husband's case, he got 90 years of federal time so they didn't do the state charges.  That saved the victims from having to testify again and in even more detail than they did in federal court.

Thank you!  

[Laurie]

39 minutes ago, Katy said:

The federal court will be interviewing children in his case.

Where did you read this?  

 

[Faith-manor]

I think that for this to be coming up now, there had been some tip, some evidence, something a child said....to make them think it is possible he  assisted in making CSA materials and/or molested a child/ren. It is gut wrenching to think about, and of course my first thoughts do go to his own kids plus his nieces and nephews.

It is so sickening. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I thought it was just boilerplate legal language to cover anything that might come up in discovery, not an indication that any minors would be testifying.

The Sun is not particularly credible anyway.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I thought it was just boilerplate legal language to cover anything that might come up in discovery, not an unification that any minors would be testifying.

That makes more sense. 

[Laurie]

36 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I thought he was only accused of looking at child abuse materials purchased anonymously on the internet, presumably made using children that he never had contact with.  If that’s right then this seems like an escalation in charges, is that correct? 

I hope Katy isn't basing this thread on the you tube lady without the crystal ball.  I just watched her most recent video and it sounds like  since Friday there's a protective order so that if any children's names are part of evidence/discovery then the defense lawyers must make sure that the information is secured and not available to anyone in JD's family, etc.    The you tube lady sounds especially happy that Jim Bob won't be able to know any of this sensitive information.  

I'm no fan of JD.  I hope the judge and prosecutors are doing everything they can to make sure JD's lawyers can't find some reason to get a mistrial or anything like that!   And it makes sense that a protective order is in place to protect the identities of all child victims.  But I don't remember seeing anything about child witnesses being called?   

It seems like a protective order could lead to a lot of speculation from outsiders who don't have any knowledge of what's really going on, and it makes it impossible for the defense to speak out about this speculation without violating the order.  

[HomeAgain]

Here is a link to the Sun article.

There is already speculation on what it means, but I'm really hoping nobody outside the court finds out anything definite, if it does protect victims.

[Katy]

No, someone posted a copy of the filing on Facebook snd summarized it. I haven’t watched Without a Crystal Ball on this. I didn’t even read the entire document before I got busy with dinner. 

[Laurie]

36 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think that for this to be coming up now, there had been some tip, some evidence, something a child said....to make them think it is possible he  assisted in making CSA materials and/or molested a child/ren. It is gut wrenching to think about, and of course my first thoughts do go to his own kids plus his nieces and nephews.

It is so sickening. 

This is what worries me because there are people who will do more than just think about it.   With all the publicity, his kids won't be able to go anywhere without being stalked by press and stared at by the public, at the very least.  And there will be someone who won't think anything of yelling at them something along the lines of "Did your daddy molest you, too?"

 

[Faith-manor]

19 minutes ago, Laurie said:

This is what worries me because there are people who will do more than just think about it.   With all the publicity, his kids won't be able to go anywhere without being stalked by press and stared at by the public, at the very least.  And there will be someone who won't think anything of yelling at them something along the lines of "Did your daddy molest you, too?"

 

Right. My heart is for those kids. I feel like given the family cult beliefs, these children have very little chance for any kind of privacy. Grandpa sold the family privacy for money, and there is a fan base and paparazzi to satisfy, and who knows what that contract with TLC says. They may be entitled to exactly nothing. It is so ugly.

[Faith-manor]

There is a para legal over on free jinger who says the language is typical approaching a case trial.because evidence has to be shown, and given to his defense team for discovery. Since some of the children in the videos/photos may be identified, this protects the victims and then also covers their prosecutorial behinds if there are any victims who have to testify. So it does not mean there are any, just lays out how to handle it if there are. Forensic interviews were ordered for the his children, but it doesn't imply that those interviews produced any evidence either. It appears to be all around very precise handling of very sensitive material on the behalf of victims in general whether or not there are additional charges. It also lays out who can see the evidence. Only Josh and his attorneys, and only in the presence of his attorneys. That makes sense. The victims of CSA should not have JB and company snooping through it, and none of it should ever be left where an unauthorized person can see it.

I am very glad that the court is being this precise and careful.

[Katy]

A lawyer reacted…. From her responses in the comments it could be either escalation of charges OR boilerplate. 
 

 

[Annie G]

Josh’s legal team has asked for a postponement of trial until at least next February, mainly because they need time to examine the one device that was found to have CSA images on it.  I get they need time, but that seems like a whole lot of time. If it’s granted, and I guess it probably will be, Josh will be out for the baby’s birth. ugh. I just wanted this to move swiftly. 

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Josh’s legal team has asked for a postponement of trial until at least next February, mainly because they need time to examine the one device that was found to have CSA images on it.  I get they need time, but that seems like a whole lot of time. If it’s granted, and I guess it probably will be, Josh will be out for the baby’s birth. ugh. I just wanted this to move swiftly. 

Well, ugh. I hope they will not delay that long.

[Ottakee]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, ugh. I hope they will not delay that long.

It took 9+ months to go through the computer files they found on my ex husband's computer.

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

It took 9+ months to go through the computer files they found on my ex husband's computer.

Wow. I guess it is best to be thorough. For the sake of M7, I and hoped he would be in prison before the baby was born. 

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, Annie G said:

Josh’s legal team has asked for a postponement of trial until at least next February, mainly because they need time to examine the one device that was found to have CSA images on it.  I get they need time, but that seems like a whole lot of time. If it’s granted, and I guess it probably will be, Josh will be out for the baby’s birth. ugh. I just wanted this to move swiftly. 

It’s quite often at least a year from the time of arraignment to trial.  Sometimes even longer.  I’ll honestly be surprised if the trial starts before next spring.   

[Annie G]

10 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

It’s quite often at least a year from the time of arraignment to trial.  Sometimes even longer.  I’ll honestly be surprised if the trial starts before next spring.   

I was holding out hope that he would be like Jared Fogle and just plead guilty. Maybe Josh will do that, but I bet he drags it out as long as possible.  

[LucyStoner]

6 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I was holding out hope that he would be like Jared Fogle and just plead guilty. Maybe Josh will do that, but I bet he drags it out as long as possible.  

Josh is definitely not gonna deal.  That’s my gut feeling anyways.  If he pleads guilty, the Duggars don’t have any wiggle room to pretend it’s all a mistake or him being persecuted unfairly.  He has to take it all the way to trial to protect this family brand/image/delusion that JimBob is so invested in.  

[KungFuPanda]

This isn't Josh-specific, but I read/heard somewhere that the price of entry for some of these sites can be a photo submission.  I weeds out cops.  If he uploaded photos he took I can see that leading to questioning any victims.

[Annie G]

Can Jim Bob save his image/‘empire’ at this point? Josh is clearly a problem child, and Jill is seen as a problem child as far as his image is concerned.  I think JB needs to face the facts- his ten minutes of fame is over. (and should have been many years ago)

[KungFuPanda]

3 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Josh is definitely not gonna deal.  That’s my gut feeling anyways.  If he pleads guilty, the Duggars don’t have any wiggle room to pretend it’s all a mistake or him being persecuted unfairly.  He has to take it all the way to trial to protect this family brand/image/delusion that JimBob is so invested in.  

My money is on them doubling down on the demon possession angle.  They'll say the devil made him do it and this is what happens when you dabble with the sinful, secular world . . . and something about shrubbery.

[Annie G]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

My money is on them doubling down on the demon possession angle.  They'll say the devil made him do it and this is what happens when you dabble with the sinful, secular world . . . and something about shrubbery.

When you say sinful, secular world, do you specifically mean internet porn and such things, or any part of what JB has always spouted as sinful, secular worldly things? Because if you mean the latter, he’s in trouble- he has several kids who are dabbling with mainstream culture and wearing pants, drinking alcohol, not buying used and saving the difference, etc. and they’re not falling into a life of crime.  JB is grasping at straws to save his empire and it’s sick. Not as sick as Josh’s actions, but pretty despicable. 

[KungFuPanda]

9 hours ago, Annie G said:

When you say sinful, secular world, do you specifically mean internet porn and such things, or any part of what JB has always spouted as sinful, secular worldly things? Because if you mean the latter, he’s in trouble- he has several kids who are dabbling with mainstream culture and wearing pants, drinking alcohol, not buying used and saving the difference, etc. and they’re not falling into a life of crime.  JB is grasping at straws to save his empire and it’s sick. Not as sick as Josh’s actions, but pretty despicable. 

I'd bet money that they work the Slippery Slope angle and try to control their kids even more.  It'll be all about how disobedience begins with small things and then lands you in jail. They'll tell the kids not to risk temptations because you never know if you're the one who succumbs to Satan making you watch porn.  I'm kind of amazed they held it together this long.

Edited June 18, 2021 by KungFuPanda
Satan, not satin

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

Josh is definitely not gonna deal.  That’s my gut feeling anyways.  If he pleads guilty, the Duggars don’t have any wiggle room to pretend it’s all a mistake or him being persecuted unfairly.  He has to take it all the way to trial to protect this family brand/image/delusion that JimBob is so invested in.  

Agreed. JBob would rather have him in prison even if it was for life and claim they were under attack by the evil libs or whatever crazy thing he dreams up than have his son accept a plea and be out a lot sooner. They can also make the fundamentalist conference circuit claiming persecution but god is good and they have faith they will prevail which will be met by the thunderous applause of thousands of cult followers. The public speaking on their woes of Josh "wrongly" imprisoned will generate a lot of cash. If he can get Jessa, Jinger, and the other married kids excluding Jill on board with maintaining this lie, they may even be able to hold onto the TLC show because in reality tv land, crazy makes for good ratings.

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'd bet money that they work the Slippery Slope angle and try to control their kids even more.  It'll be all about how disobedience begins with small things and then lands you in jail. They'll tell the kids not to risk temptations because you never know if you're the one who succumbs to Satin making you watch porn.  I'm kind of amazed they held it together this long.

I also think that for the minors still at home this may definitely happen.  But I have to wonder about the already married ones. Jessa is definitely in full on kiss up mode to daddy. However, even though Jinger has not rebelled to the same degree as Jill, she is wearing pants, trendy tops, shorts, moved well our of reach of daddy and mommy, has book out that includes references to beliefs that have changed and are not in line with her parents. I have to wonder if with Jill on the fast track out off the family for good, might the others like Josiah and John David begin to rebel and especially if there is any chance the Duggar gravy train might come to an end.

One thing that could help all of this along would be if all of this triggered an investigation/audit of all of the Duggar LLC's. It could cause a host of money problems causing the others to have to become self supporting including Jesse and Ben. Since Jill went the legal route to get paid, it is public knowledge that JBob has kept the wages of his working children and TLC allowed it. Seems to me there could be labor law violations, possibly tax implications which fingers crossed, could maybe lead to something. One can only hope!

[AnotherNewName]

9 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

This isn't Josh-specific, but I read/heard somewhere that the price of entry for some of these sites can be a photo submission.  I weeds out cops.  If he uploaded photos he took I can see that leading to questioning any victims.

I have read that is true for the deepest of the dark web.  Based on what I read Josh was mainly engaging with the BitTorrent file sharing which is readily accessible to anyone with the software and also heavily monitored by law enforcement.

[Katy]

Does anyone remember when his last day to take a plea is?  Was it June 27th?

[Danae]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I also think that for the minors still at home this may definitely happen.  But I have to wonder about the already married ones. Jessa is definitely in full on kiss up mode to daddy. However, even though Jinger has not rebelled to the same degree as Jill, she is wearing pants, trendy tops, shorts, moved well our of reach of daddy and mommy, has book out that includes references to beliefs that have changed and are not in line with her parents. I have to wonder if with Jill on the fast track out off the family for good, might the others like Josiah and John David begin to rebel and especially if there is any chance the Duggar gravy train might come to an end.

One thing that could help all of this along would be if all of this triggered an investigation/audit of all of the Duggar LLC's. It could cause a host of money problems causing the others to have to become self supporting including Jesse and Ben. Since Jill went the legal route to get paid, it is public knowledge that JBob has kept the wages of his working children and TLC allowed it. Seems to me there could be labor law violations, possibly tax implications which fingers crossed, could maybe lead to something. One can only hope!

There are no wages.  That's how reality TV gets around all sorts of labor laws and union requirements . . . no one on camera is officially working, they're just living their lives and have given permission for TLC to film it.  "The family" (JB) gets paid a lump sum per episode, but it's not a salary.  He might also be an executive producer or similar and get paid more that way.

[AbcdeDooDah]

I hope the Rebers decide that’s far too long for him to stay with them.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

There are no wages.  That's how reality TV gets around all sorts of labor laws and union requirements . . . no one on camera is officially working, they're just living their lives and have given permission for TLC to film it.  "The family" (JB) gets paid a lump sum per episode, but it's not a salary.  He might also be an executive producer or similar and get paid more that way.

But, there might be a law about whatever lump sum he gets, a portion having to go into a trust for the minor children. It is hard for me to believe that he can have his entire family on camera which is absolutely working for whatever lump sum Jbob gets and not have a legal responsibility for distribution in some way to the actors. I would love to see Jill get a lawyer and sue on behalf of her minor siblings, and for all of the adult kids to get back pay.

 

[Danae]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

But, there might be a law about whatever lump sum he gets, a portion having to go into a trust for the minor children. It is hard for me to believe that he can have his entire family on camera which is absolutely working for whatever lump sum Jbob gets and not have a legal responsibility for distribution in some way to the actors. I would love to see Jill get a lawyer and sue on behalf of her minor siblings, and for all of the adult kids to get back pay.

 

There isn't.  If they were child actors receiving a salary they'd be covered by laws set up to protect their money, but they aren't. It's morally reprehensible but not illegal.  I'd love to see laws set up to protect minors on reality TV, but I can see it being a huge tangle determining when someone is featured on a show vs being in the background, and what about talent search shows, etc.  

[Faith-manor]

14 minutes ago, Danae said:

There isn't.  If they were child actors receiving a salary they'd be covered by laws set up to protect their money, but they aren't. It's morally reprehensible but not illegal.  I'd love to see laws set up to protect minors on reality TV, but I can see it being a huge tangle determining when someone is featured on a show vs being in the background, and what about talent search shows, etc. 

Well, I don't think as a society we should care two figs about t.v. and whether or not we make it hard on the industry to use kids. What the Duggar have done is disgusting as well as shows like Kate +8, etc. I am 100% for it being illegal.

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, I don't think as a society we should care two figs about t.v. and whether or not we make it hard on the industry to use kids. What the Duggar have done is disgusting as well as shows like Kate +8, etc. I am 100% for it being illegal.

I don't care about making it hard for 'the producers of reality TV to use kids either.  The tangle I meant was for the people writing the laws. 

[Tanaqui]

It's gratifying to think that this might be the last straw that causes all their kids to make a break for it, but I worry that some of them might double down in the face of "persecution", use Josh as a sign that "even people like us" can have troubles (rather than "especially people like us, raised in this abusive cult", which I think is probably more accurate, and end up even further entrenched.

And even those who do manage to escape, unless they continue doing the one thing they were raised to do, which is sell their story at every turn, it's going to be a hard uphill road. And I just don't think there's room for 19+ "I escaped the Duggar cult" memoirs.

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

It's gratifying to think that this might be the last straw that causes all their kids to make a break for it, but I worry that some of them might double down in the face of "persecution", use Josh as a sign that "even people like us" can have troubles (rather than "especially people like us, raised in this abusive cult", which I think is probably more accurate, and end up even further entrenched.

And even those who do manage to escape, unless they continue doing the one thing they were raised to do, which is sell their story at every turn, it's going to be a hard uphill road. And I just don't think there's room for 19+ "I escaped the Duggar cult" memoirs.

True! At this point, since Jinger had a book, my guess is maybe Jill could have one, and then everyone else sunk. Maybe they could do a reality tv show Duggar gone wild, and show off their jeans, above the knee dresses, and margaritas. 😝 People would probably watch it. Ugh.

[Katy]

While I didn’t buy it, I heard Jinger’s book didn’t say anything except possibly further explain the rift between JB & Jeremy.  No family juice, no real juice at all.  Just God instead of therapy.

I’d imagine there’s room for at least 2 tell-alls.  But probably not more. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Katy

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

Whole I didn’t buy it, I heard Jinger’s book didn’t say anything except possibly further explain the rift between JB & Jeremy.  No family juice, no real juice at all.  Just God instead of therapy.

I’d imagine there’s room for at least 2 tell-alls.  But probably not more. 

Well, maybe three. If Jill writes one, and maybe Jana or one of the boys gets out, that would be two plus Jinger's book. I think there would be room for one more IF Anna eventually left Josh, got a job, and single patented her kids. I think the odds are crazy low, but if she actually did it, she could probably make a book deal even if the other two books were already in circulation.

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, maybe three. If Jill writes one, and maybe Jana or one of the boys gets out, that would be two plus Jinger's book. I think there would be room for one more IF Anna eventually left Josh, got a job, and single patented her kids. I think the odds are crazy low, but if she actually did it, she could probably make a book deal even if the other two books were already in circulation.

Or her oldest daughter. Only 8 years until she’s an angry adult. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Katy said:

While I didn’t buy it, I heard Jinger’s book didn’t say anything except possibly further explain the rift between JB & Jeremy.  No family juice, no real juice at all.  Just God instead of therapy.

I’d imagine there’s room for at least 2 tell-alls.  But probably not more. 

Jinger’s husband is part of the whole John McArthur empire in LA. It’s not like they are exactly making good choices while away from the family. I don’t doubt they might try to monetize anything that happens, but I’d be surprised by any real tell all when they are still deeply involved with such a church.

[KungFuPanda]

On 6/18/2021 at 4:46 PM, Tanaqui said:

It's gratifying to think that this might be the last straw that causes all their kids to make a break for it, but I worry that some of them might double down in the face of "persecution", use Josh as a sign that "even people like us" can have troubles (rather than "especially people like us, raised in this abusive cult", which I think is probably more accurate, and end up even further entrenched.

And even those who do manage to escape, unless they continue doing the one thing they were raised to do, which is sell their story at every turn, it's going to be a hard uphill road. And I just don't think there's room for 19+ "I escaped the Duggar cult" memoirs.

They will DEFINITELY work the Satan angle.  "If the Devil isn't testing you, you're not living for God" is real thing that comes from those pulpits.  It stands to reason that their family MUST be Super God-Like if they are facing tribulations of THIS magnitude.  I wouldn't be surprised if they rebranded it The Temptation of Josh and scheduled speaking engagements to talk about how demonic possession can happen to ANYone.

[TravelingChris]

His trial is deferred to November.  Duggar's wanted it to be deferred to February.

[Katy]

Jinger & US Weekly both confirmed Counting On has been canceled.