What is the point of the Ivies?

[wendyroo]

21 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

Two other thoughts about why a student might choose to apply mainly to Ivy League and similar colleges -- money.

These schools tend to have large endowments from generations of involved alumni (and families of alumni). Where a small liberal arts college may depend on annual tuition to provide the majority of operating revenue, a college with a major endowment can afford to spend much, much more on each student. It's estimated, for example, that Stanford tuition covers about 20% of the cost associated with each undergrad. The rest is paid for out of earnings from the school's endowment.

There are very few colleges in the US that meet full financial need (fewer than 100). A high performing student with high need may find they pay much less at a school like Stanford or Harvard than their state flagship or a public university where they would be an out of state student. Most colleges simply cannot afford to meet full financial need. At the same time, no student should put all their eggs in the basket marked "most selective colleges" because only a fraction of the very well qualified students who apply will be admitted.

 

2 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm sorry to hear she had such a hard fall.  I'm glad you found better options.

For the above conversation to make sense, families really need to understand how NPC work.  They need to understand that their definition of what they can afford and what schools' definitions of what they can afford are not the same thing.  They need to understand how formulas impact retirements contributions, how # of students in college can alter their expected familial contribution when a sibling graduates or another starts college, etc.  

If a family can receive a FA package from a meets need school that they can afford, then the above information applies.  Many middle class families cannot afford to pay their familial contribution.  Those same kids that are competitive enough for admissions to elite schools are eligible for not only automatic scholarships at a lot of schools but also competitive for scholarships.

This was me (20 years ago). My parents were firmly middle class. 

I applied to MIT as a huge reach school. My match schools were choices like Carnegie Mellon and Case Western. We lived in Michigan, so my safety was U of M.

I was accepted to MIT, and they fully met our "need", but it would hurt. I was accepted to my match schools...but all things considered they would cost just about the same as MIT. U of M offered me a free ride.

For me there was only really a choice between MIT and U of M. My parents had very limited resources to help me financially, so it was a choice between working my tail off during the summers, during the school year, and ending up with loans, versus having very few expenses.

Obviously I can't know if I made the "right" choice. I'm satisfied with the choice I made, but that was 20 years ago, and if a student in the same situation made the same choice today, I think they would incur substantially more loans than I did. I think MIT was a good fit for me, but I can't be sure that U of M would not have been as well.

I do know that my brother, not nearly as academically oriented as me, went to U of M just a few years after I would have, and objectively got a much less rigorous education than I did. For better or for worse, the majority of his peers would not have been accepted to MIT, and it showed in the rigor of classes and the level of discourse. That is not to say that I could not have found my niche at U of M, but it also isn't to say that what MIT was able to offer me wasn't worth the additional cost.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

1 minute ago, Hoggirl said:

It is a large list (16 in total, I believe), and they no doubt paid quite a bit in application fees. Our ds applied to 11 schools in the fall of 2013. 

She has not.  She has visited the in-state schools that were allowing on-campus visits, but she did many other tours virtually because of Covid.  I think she had also visited Case in person because they have family near there.  They had visited P’ton (her top choice) before Covid hit.  She is on spring break this week, and they are driving to Rochester since she has not been there, and it is now emerging as “the one.” 

Things like this make me realize how incredibly different my high school experience was compared to others’. I mean, I knew - I’m not a dunce - but I didn’t truly comprehend.

I’m so thankful for these boards & the wealth of experience in them. As hard as I’m working to give DS better academic opportunities than I had, I would be entirely unaware of 90% of what’s out there if it weren’t for the conversations here. 

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

 

This was me (20 years ago). My parents were firmly middle class. 

I applied to MIT as a huge reach school. My match schools were choices like Carnegie Mellon and Case Western. We lived in Michigan, so my safety was U of M.

I was accepted to MIT, and they fully met our "need", but it would hurt. I was accepted to my match schools...but all things considered they would cost just about the same as MIT. U of M offered me a free ride.

For me there was only really a choice between MIT and U of M. My parents had very limited resources to help me financially, so it was a choice between working my tail off during the summers, during the school year, and ending up with loans, versus having very few expenses.

That is not to say that I could not have found my niche at U of M, but it also isn't to say that what MIT was able to offer me wasn't worth the additional cost.

But, in today's world, that isn't a realistic perspective for a conversation for many familial contributions.  Our family's expected contributions have been between $25K-40K.  No way a student can work their tails off to meet familial contributions like those.   Equally, there is no way we could have paid that amt x 4 x 8 kids on our income.

[Frances]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

So much has been said, I'm a bit lost as to all the different pieces. But I think these are my main points:

1) There are many many good schools. I have written about how both CMU and U of M were outstanding, and definitely had positives that the Ivy's we considered didn't. The decision was hard because my ds lost as much as he gained with his choice.

2) If you go to an Ivy, make sure you are at the top. I have shared the experience of 2 family members and one of my son's friends who have been badly damaged by being in the bottom half of the class at an Ivy. If you are competitive and accomplished enough to get in, it is very hard to be at the bottom.

3) I believe that there are many good paths to walk when homeschooling highschool. Consider your own situation, but evaluate your own assumptions when deciding on your educational philosophy. I have tried to offer support/an example to those who want permission to go their own way, but in the process seem to have also upset people who either have kids who like the standard path or are in systems that don't allow alternatives. For that I am sorry. All I can say is know your child.

4) I have no idea how to answer the OP's question.  I only know why my son went, and I am incredibly grateful that the outcome was positive, because I was horribly worried for at least a year until he found his feet. And I have shared how much support he needed in the first year to be able to reach his potential.

5) I obviously hate ranking kids, really hate it. I am naive. 

6) Do not go to an Ivy unless you are willing to work crazy hard. I have shared the workload my son has had to deal with. Don't go just for reputation as you are likely not to finish.

I've tried to only speak from experience. Good luck to all in navigating this crazy system.

 

In my experience and of several grad students I know at different Ivies, I don’t think #6 is true across all Ivies and all majors. Plenty of undergrad Ivy students with strong backgrounds and less challenging majors are not remotely putting in the time that a STEM major at a place like MIT is, nor do they feel like they are drinking from a fire hose most of the time. Similarly, STEM majors at many non-Ivies also often deal with crazy difficult, time consuming workloads. Probably not at the level of MIT (although many do choose to take grad level courses), but likely well beyond what many non-STEM Ivy students face.

As I said earlier, I feel as though schools like MIT and Caltech are in a somewhat different group than the Ivies due to their STEM focus, core requirements, and admission policies. Plus, unlike the Ivies, most of their athletics are D3, not D1.

[wendyroo]

23 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Even this, to me, is unfathomable. That list is huge! Did she get to visit each of these schools? How much did they spend on application fees?

I had to get a job to cover the cost of SAT & AP tests. The only campuses I could have visited were those within 30min of home; one a state flagship, the other a “party school”. My mom couldn’t afford to take off work even to travel the 1-3hrs to other in-state universities or colleges. I only applied to a couple of schools, due to the cost of applications. It wasn’t worth $50-$100ea - that was a week of groceries. 

This exactly.

My family was never food insecure, but eating out was something that only happened on your birthday and short camping trips were the only accordable vacations.

By high school I was paying for all of my own clothes, lunches, extracurriculars, school fees, etc. I was working several jobs for a total of about 30 hours a week. I was juggling half days at the high school and then commuting 40 minutes each way to dual enroll at the closest university to actually take classes that offered any challenge whatsoever.

My parents acutely felt their own lack of education and did absolutely everything they possibly could to help me succeed...but your can't get blood from a stone. They volunteered, they contributed every dollar they could, but there is a big difference between supporting a child participating in the Model UN and organizing a Model UN where one doesn't exist. No matter how dedicated my parents or I were, having a ranking list telling us that Science Bowl national qualification is a thing and that it looks good on a transcript, would have not made it any more possible for me to participate.

[wendyroo]

10 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

But, in today's world, that isn't a realistic perspective for a conversation for many familial contributions.  Our family's expected contributions have been between $25K-40K.  No way a student can work their tails off to meet familial contributions like those.   Equally, there is no way we could have paid that amt x 4 x 8 kids on our income.

I am acutely aware of this.

Our estimated family contribution (20 years ago), was 25K. We weren't poor enough, didn't have enough children (I was the oldest of 2, my brother would not enter college until the year after I was done), and I had saved too much money over the years.

That is chump change compared to our EFC now. College costs are out of control.

"Thankfully", at least my oldest two children are far too mentally unstable to even consider a competitive college...yet their academics should put them in the running for strong merit aid at the local middle-of-the-road colleges.

[Roadrunner]

All I am going to say is thank you lord for public universities and small liberal arts schools for allowing us to calmly do our work without twisting into a pretzel and know it will be rewarded. 
 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

8 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

No matter how dedicated my parents or I were, having a ranking list telling us that Science Bowl national qualification is a thing and that it looks good on a transcript, would have not made it any more possible for me to participate.

Reading that list, my school / area didn’t offer anything above a 3 for females or a 4 for males (at the time, females couldn’t be Eagle Scouts; that has since changed). I had heard of precisely 5 of the items ranked above a 4 prior to joining these boards: being a D1 athlete, going to State for athletics, being Class President, appearing on Jeopardy, & having a patent - which I didn’t think was possible for a minor. Even now, I have no clue what many are referring to. Looks like I have some research to do! 😅 

[Clemsondana]

20 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Then probably I'd personally prefer to go that route if I absolutely had to get some APs in. 

 

Well, right, of course you can't just WRITE them, you'd have to do well. That was my question -- how well do you need to do to stand out? I really don't know, so I'm curious. 

Some of these have the complexity of being team events, too, so it can be very difficult to do well. My 7th grader placed 3rd and 8th in 2 events at the National Science Olympiad (middle school division).  But, in order to go our team had to win our state competition, and no state sends more than 2 teams (there are 60 total teams).  So, despite being nationally competitive, my kid may never even get to compete at a national event again. Invitationals are sort of national-level, and we'll probably do some of those - kid has gotten several medals at those events.  There is definitely recognition of high level participants (some high school nationals winners get scholarships and internships), but many never get the chance to compete beyond the state level.  

And, on another topic, we're another family that is taking some AP exams but not doing approved AP classes.  The amount of work that local schoolkids do for APs is insane - how can you need that much more work than the equivalent college class that the AP is replacing?  I mean, I've taught the college bio class that is the equivalent credit, and I KNOW it wasn't a bunch of output.  🙂    We will likely do some science/math APs because they won't add any extra work or curriculum changes other than a bit of test prep.  We may do Latin - a teacher at co-op is basically designing Latin 4 and 5 classes for my kid, who started with the high school classes in middle school so will need something for high school.  I asked him to take a look at what goes on the Latin AP, and I think he's working with that material over the next 2 years because, well, he has to pick something to read/translate so why not the readings used for AP?  Kid may do a US history, but only if it aligns with what they are already doing.  There are APs that we eliminated as options because we had more interesting things that we wanted to do in those subject areas.  

And, all of this is for my older kid, who likes to learn, is unbothered and unstressed by tests, and is taking 8 credits every year, some of which are interesting electives and others of which are more creative takes on the required credits.  Kid looks like somebody who would be competing for ivies, but has said that they want to go to school in the south, and not in a city.  Knowing kid...that's a reasonable choice.  This kid seems happy hanging with their science nerds and is also comfortable being the full-of-odd-knowledge homeschool kid on the public school ball team, so I imagine they'll find their people wherever they go to college.  Younger is comparably intelligent but very different and may never take any AP or DE.  Their post-high school plans will likely be practical - if they want a particular job/career, they will do what they need to get it, including college or other training, but college with an amorphous goal of 'learning a lot and seeing where that takes you' won't appeal to them like it does to older (or did to me, for that matter).  

[Hoggirl]

I think many of the comments are illuminating the vast differences between “then” and “now.” Whether speaking of costs or what it takes to be admitted.  

“Then”:
I think I read in the 80s Stanford’s admit rate was around 40%.  Certainly not a gimme, but hardly what it is today. 

My dh’s in-state public flagship was $30 per credit hour.  

When I was applying to colleges, I knew one family (Dad Harvard undergrad, Yale medical/mom Radcliffe, and Idk where she got her PhD) who really understood the ins and outs of elite college admissions and who worked to prep their twin daughters for such. Both went to Yale undergrad, and then on to Harvard Medicine and Stanford Law, respectively. 

A poster had Carnegie Mellon as a “safety.” 
EDIT:  mea culpa.  It was the University of Michigan that was listed as a “safety,” and CM as a “match.”

Rightly or wrongly, none of those are “now” statements. Admit rates are in low single digits, public flagships are much less affordable, many (though certainly not all) understand much more about navigating elite college admissions, and CM is hardly a “safety.”  EDIT: It’s really not even a match for anyone. 

So, I am not sure how relevant it is to compare our own college experiences and journeys to those of our children. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Hoggirl

[Not_a_Number]

@Clemsondana -- I'm going to guess you didn't read that far ahead, but I'm trying to get myself out of this thread and failing 😂. So, I'm definitely interested in your experiences, but I won't reply so I don't get sucked in. I hope you don't mind!!

[rzberrymom]

44 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

All I am going to say is thank you lord for public universities and small liberal arts schools for allowing us to calmly do our work without twisting into a pretzel and know it will be rewarded. 
 

No kidding. My husband is an engineering professor at a state school that emphasizes hands-on learning (often to low-income, first gen kids), I showed him that list, gave him a hug and let him know what an important job he’s doing!

[Clemsondana]

4 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

I coached Science Olympiad for a small homeschool team. Our high school level team was very young, with a number of 6-8th grade members just to fill the team. 

Our efforts were supported by annual dues and energetic parents. When we went to coaches training at the private school campus of the usual state winner, that school's kids were working on builds in the STEM work area that also housed tens of thousands of dollars of robotics equipment and an ultralight aircraft a student club was building. 

I was about to post something similar.  When we got to Nationals, our kids chatted with other teams, as did our coaches. We had some say 'I don't know how you got here'.  We meet in a church, do labs in kitchens, and when we won state we had to pool frequent flyer miles and motel points and have a chili supper to raise $ to get us there.  Other teams talked about flying to competitions around the country and bringing in top professors to train them.  We have moms with internet acess and we did whatever competitions we could drive to - there are 2 near us.  Other teams told us that it's a commitment - like, they agree to do no other extracurriculars if they are on the team so that they can study every day.  Our kids...don't do that.  We have a lot of fun, and a lot of our kids play a sport or do robotics or something else that they enjoy.  We honestly had no idea what we were up against.  But, that's why it's so hard to compare, too.  For our kids, it's not stressful.  Our practices are full of laughter and are highly social.  I don't think most do it for resume purposes - they do it because it's another way to hang out with their friends from co-op.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

For the above conversation to make sense, families really need to understand how NPC work.  They need to understand that their definition of what they can afford and what schools' definitions of what they can afford are not the same thing.  They need to understand how formulas impact retirements contributions, how # of students in college can alter their expected familial contribution when a sibling graduates or another starts college, etc.  

If a family can receive a FA package from a meets need school that they can afford, then the above information applies.  Many middle class families cannot afford to pay their familial contribution.  Those same kids that are competitive enough for admissions to elite schools are eligible for not only automatic scholarships at a lot of schools but also competitive for schools' competitive scholarships.

I agree with all of the above.

I was thinking of low - zero EFC students who have totally different prospects meets needs colleges than even at generous colleges that still expect $10-15k per year for room and board.

Running an EFC calculator and using the Net Price Calculators for individual colleges is essential. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

I am acutely aware of this.

Our estimated family contribution (20 years ago), was 25K. We weren't poor enough, didn't have enough children (I was the oldest of 2, my brother would not enter college until the year after I was done), and I had saved too much money over the years.

That is chump change compared to our EFC now. College costs are out of control.

"Thankfully", at least my oldest two children are far too mentally unstable to even consider a competitive college...yet their academics should put them in the running for strong merit aid at the local middle-of-the-road colleges.

I'm confused. Are you saying you worked while in school and paid $100000 to attend MIT 20 yrs ago? I am not following.

*********

For other readers who dont follow FA lingo, EFC is the number generated by FAFSA to determine eligibility for Pell Grant's. It is not your family's expected contribution to attend college. Institutions that offer institutional grants use proprietary formulas to determine familial contributions. Those formulas add back in retirement contributions (expected to be used to pay for college), investments, savings, (some add in) home equity, etc. Debt to income ratio is not considered at all unless it is medical. In (iirc) 2011 federal law required schools to have net price calculators. Some are junk (and for most publics, Pell grants and scholarships are all that are available). But the meet need schools that require a lot of input tend to accurate for simple scenarios. Noncustodial parental issues or small businesses can make NPCs inaccurate.

 

[GoodGrief3]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

 But if you are s.t.r.e.c.h.i.n.g  desperately to get your kid in just so that they get the reputational bump, then the chances are that they will be in the bottom half, and the negative emotional impact will more than overwhelm the reputation bump. I really don't think that people realize this. 

Yes, I will agree. I also think there can be a big letdown if the goal has been a particular college. Once that is achieved, the reality of life there can be a letdown. And there’s some loose ends as the student tries to figure out what is next. 

[teachermom2834]

2 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

 Even now, I have no clue what many are referring to. Looks like I have some research to do! 😅 

Or...maybe not? 😉 

I feel like there are people here enamored by "the list" but also lots of people on here dismissing it. I guess I was hoping that more people reading this thread are taking it with a big chunk of salt than off to run down the list. Not saying that is what you are doing...I've just been hoping the posters presenting the flip side are also being "heard". 

I rarely post anything in such strong language because I very much do not like to argue on the internet but - I think this thread is CRAZYPANTS. 

But I'm sure I don't belong in the discussion. I'm not a genius and neither are my children. We are just regular smart. LOL. We are average+ I guess. Our achievements are in the bottom half of the list and that is with only half hearted efforts. 

I used to think people were being to sensitive when they said that the high school and college boards scared them. I have thought we had a very wide range of folks and opinions and never felt like there was pressure to only try for top schools. But this thread is kind of scary. 

 

[SeaConquest]

Things are so vastly different than they were when most of us went to school. I always joke that I couldn't have gotten into my undergrad if I applied today. It's just an entirely different world today. Wendyroo, even though you came from a crappy HS and lower socioeconomic environment, it sounds like you really had involved parents who supported you. That kind of support can make all the difference.

Neither of my parents had college degrees, and they never valued higher education or had any clue about how it all worked. My high school did not have AP courses at that time (it is actually quite a good high school today). I took Calculus (no AP exam offered that I recall), but had to go to the CC for physics (I wasn't mathematically prepared for it, so ended up dropping it). I had to lobby the school district for them to offer French 3 and 4 because I argued that our students were not going to be admitted to UC schools with only two years of foreign language. I applied to 10 schools, which was an enormous amount at that time. Most of my classmates went to our local CC, which we jokingly called Harvard on the Hill. If you were uber smart, you went to Cal Poly SLO or a UC. My high school counselor didn't even know some of the schools on my list. It was completely unheard of at my school to apply to schools like the ones that I did. I remember that I was admitted to Smith and Mt. Holyoke, but denied (or waitlist, can't remember) at Wellesley. I was in at Notre Dame and NYU, but denied at my dream school, Cornell. I got into Cal, UCLA, and UCSD.

Our EFC was full freight, but my parents refused to pay for college, so I was up a creek without a paddle. So, I applied for ROTC scholarships and won an Army ROTC plus merit at USC (CA) -- enough to cover what the ROTC scholarship didn't. But, an Army recruiter convinced me to turn down the scholarship for the time being to enlist in the Army Reserve so that I could learn Russian at the Defense Language Institute, jump out of airplanes, and do all this crazy stuff in special operations. It sounded seriously cool to a 17 year old girl, so I went for it. Two years later, I was back at USC a completely changed person.

I didn't have fancy accomplishments in high school, like the ones we see on that list. I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, but my interests in Russia developed because of a Cold War exchange program that I went on when I was 15 -- so relatively late by today's standards in finding one's "passion." And that passion wasn't really fully developed until I was already in college and was able to take advantage of the opportunities that I didn't have in my crappy high school. It just seems like today kids are expected to have these passions mapped out, developed, and refined to such an amazing degree so much earlier in life. And yes, most of that takes money and insider know-how.        

Edited March 29, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

8 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Or...maybe not? 😉 

I feel like there are people here enamored by "the list" but also lots of people on here dismissing it. I guess I was hoping that more people reading this thread are taking it with a big chunk of salt than off to run down the list.

I’m not so much enamored by the list as intrigued by it. We probably won’t pursue much on it, but I’m interested to learn what it all is. I find scholastic opportunities interesting whether they pertain to us or not. 🙂

Edited March 29, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I’m so thankful for these boards & the wealth of experience in them. As hard as I’m working to give DS better academic opportunities than I had, I would be entirely unaware of 90% of what’s out there if it weren’t for the conversations here. 

I completely agree.

[GoodGrief3]

5 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

I do think it's important for students and families to realize that a 4.0 and high scores does not automatically mean admission to the student's dream school. 

It does matter what students do with their time out of class. Availability of activities is influenced by family, school, and community resources.  Some colleges will do more to try to perceive context than others. 

 

And to go back to the OP. The Ivy League is an athletic conference. It does not define the outer limits of quality education. 

Excellent summary. Generally, students from an area with many resources and other high achieving students will be expected to have higher level accomplishments. And students will be expected to demonstrate that they made the most of opportunities available to them.

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

All I am going to say is thank you lord for public universities and small liberal arts schools for allowing us to calmly do our work without twisting into a pretzel and know it will be rewarded. 
 

I completely agree. I haven't mentioned NZ universities, but they are similar to what you are describing. Kids get automatic entrance here to any of the 7 universities if you pass the equivalent of 4 of the difficult AP courses (but each of these courses in NZ has between 4 and 5 assessments, not just 1). Universities are all about the same level, but have different specialties. They don't worry about retention rate and make all the courses hard. If you can't hack it in the first year, you drop out and do something else.

This has been a godsend for my younger who is not the competitive type. He knows what he wants to study, has found the best program, we have visited the school, he likes it, he has picked the dorm he wants to live in, and he has the required entrance exams completed. He is one and done. Easy.

Edited March 29, 2021 by lewelma

[Hoggirl]

23 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Or...maybe not? 😉 

I feel like there are people here enamored by "the list" but also lots of people on here dismissing it. I guess I was hoping that more people reading this thread are taking it with a big chunk of salt than off to run down the list. Not saying that is what you are doing...I've just been hoping the posters presenting the flip side are also being "heard". 

I rarely post anything in such strong language because I very much do not like to argue on the internet but - I think this thread is CRAZYPANTS. 

But I'm sure I don't belong in the discussion. I'm not a genius and neither are my children. We are just regular smart. LOL. We are average+ I guess. Our achievements are in the bottom half of the list and that is with only half hearted efforts. 

I used to think people were being to sensitive when they said that the high school and college boards scared them. I have thought we had a very wide range of folks and opinions and never felt like there was pressure to only try for top schools. But this thread is kind of scary. 

 

I went back and looked at that list.  My ds has a few things in the Rank 5 category and others beneath that rank as well.  So his achievements were also in the bottom half of the list.  We aren’t geniuses either!!!  

If it’s any consolation my ds said about his classmates at Stanford that, “About 15% of them are ‘scary smart’(a term we have used in our household for uber smart folks), and the other 85% are like me.”  Which is what I think of as “regular” smart. 

One can label elite college admissions as “crazy pants” or “scary” if they like. Both might be apt adjectives.  However, the goal of a thread such as this, IMO, is to offer a dose of REALITY.  Whether that is related to admission chances, funding payment, campus experience, campus cohort - whatever.  Providing anecdotal evidence of their relevant experiences through the process.  WHY they desired an elite institution - Ivy or otherwise - and how they perceive they were benefitted or harmed by it.  All of those things can help others make informed decisions about if an Ivy or similar is something they wish to pursue and how they themselves might go about pursing it.  

[GoodGrief3]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

This is really important info. When my oldest graduated in 2016, if he had acceptance into a needs met school it would have been an amazing financial opportunity. He would have been one of those going cheaper to the fancy school than he could have gone anywhere else. Now, my 2021 high school graduate could not even consider such schools. Just five years of raises, retirement account growth, home equity growth, fewer dependents/children in college has flipped the situation entirely, even though it sure doesn't feel like we are all of a sudden rolling in it. 

The thing that always needs to be pointed out, as 8 did, is that any kid that can get into those schools can also get great scholarships at public universities. So it really isn't (shouldn't be) Ivy or bust. Not for education, peers, prestige, or money. 

And, just to clarify, great scholarships at SOME public universities. The financial picture will be different for different people. For my daughter, coming from a solidly middle class family, Princeton was the second most attractive financial option. She applied to a large number of places, all sorts of institutions. The true full ride options are not common, even for a NM Finalist. Even if tuition is covered, housing can be quite high. One institution offered a decent scholarship, but it was clear that the various hidden costs were going to be high...for example, a charge of $250 to attend a mandatory orientation (that would require a plane ticket to get there.) 

I thought of another common Ivy advantage that is not well known and useful for lower income students: the housing does not close for breaks until summer. So conceivably, a student would not have to pay to travel back home. 

[Dmmetler]

8 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I completely agree. I haven't mentioned NZ universities, but they are similar to what you are describing. Kids get automatic entrance here to any of the 7 universities if you pass the equivalent of 4 of the difficult AP courses (but each of these courses in NZ has between 4 and 5 assessments, not just 1). Universities are all about the same level, but have different specialties. They don't worry about retention rate and make all the courses hard. If you can't hack it in the first year, you drop out and do something else.

This has been a godsend for my younger who is not the competitive type. He knows what he wants to study, has found the best program, we have visited the school, he likes it, he has picked the dorm he wants to live in, and he has the required entrance exams completed. He is one and done. Easy.

We really liked the NZ uni system, and, had it not been for COVID, Otago might have been an option (along with Toronto). Both Australia and NZ have some definite appeal for grad school. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

5 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

I went back and looked at that list.  My ds has a few things in the Rank 5 category and others beneath that rank as well.  So his achievements were also in the bottom half of the list.  We aren’t geniuses either!!!  

If it’s any consolation my ds said about his classmates at Stanford that, “About 15% of them are ‘scary smart’(a term we have used in our household for uber smart folks), and the other 85% are like me.”  Which is what I think of as “regular” smart. 

One can label elite college admissions as “crazy pants” or “scary” if they like. Both might be apt adjectives.  However, the goal of a thread such as this, IMO, is to offer a dose of REALITY.  Whether that is related to admission chances, funding payment, campus experience, campus cohort - whatever.  Providing anecdotal evidence of their relevant experiences through the process.  WHY they desired an elite institution - Ivy or otherwise - and how they perceive they were benefitted or harmed by it.  All of those things can help others make informed decisions about if an Ivy or similar is something they wish to pursue and how they themselves might go about pursing it.  

Level 5 is about where my kid at Stanford had achievements too. I think what helped him was having several things that all tied in together (multiple hard languages, starting a MUN club, along with very high test scores, AP, and Dual Enrollment).

 

[Hoggirl]

8 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

Level 5 is about where my kid at Stanford had achievements too. I think what helped him was having several things that all tied in together (multiple hard languages, starting a MUN club, along with very high test scores, AP, and Dual Enrollment).

 

Yes, I agree that cohesiveness in one’s application is extremely important. It kind of goes along with that telling v showing idea in essays.  Don’t just tell me you are passionate about something - show me that you are by how you have pursued your interests, honed your talents, strived to make a difference, etc. 

[GoodGrief3]

I went back and looked at The List too. To me, it reads like something an intense high school senior would put together 🙂 It’s probably useful for parents to understand that the “Who’s Who” type awards that involve paying for a listing are a bit of a scam. 
 

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

Yes, I agree that cohesiveness in one’s application is extremely important.

Agreed. And for ds it was much more easily done with the MIT prompts than with Stanford's prompts!

For MIT ds was also deeply honest. I figured that admissions reads so many applications that they can tell the difference. 

 

[Porridge]

28 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

I thought of another common Ivy advantage that is not well known and useful for lower income students: the housing does not close for breaks until summer. So conceivably, a student would not have to pay to travel back home. 

Bui I believe you have to pay for summer on campus housing, no? At least that’s how it was when I was in school.

[rzberrymom]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief3 said:

I went back and looked at The List too. To me, it reads like something an intense high school senior would put together 🙂 It’s probably useful for parents to understand that the “Who’s Who” type awards that involve paying for a listing are a bit of a scam. 
 

Except that someone here said that a college counselor gave it to her, yes? It seems to me not so benign if it’s being presented as a recipe by a professional.

 

I showed the list to my 16-year old, and her response was, “oh yeah, you read about that pressure messing up kids in young adult novels...”

[GoodGrief3]

1 hour ago, WTM said:

Bui I believe you have to pay for summer on campus housing, no? At least that’s how it was when I was in school.

Sorry, I wasn't clear: students do move out for summer. But that is much more doable than having to vacate for winter and spring (and in some places Thanksgiving) breaks. That sort of thing was a real problem for me during college without a solid home base. Summer, longer term, housing is easier to arrange.

[GoodGrief3]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Agreed. And for ds it was much more easily done with the MIT prompts than with Stanford's prompts!

For MIT ds was also deeply honest. I figured that admissions reads so many applications that they can tell the difference. 

 

Ha, I remember Stanford's prompts seemed so random! :-)

[GoodGrief3]

39 minutes ago, rzberrymom said:

Except that someone here said that a college counselor gave it to her, yes? It seems to me not so benign if it’s being presented as a recipe by a professional.

 

I showed the list to my 16-year old, and her response was, “oh yeah, you read about that pressure messing up kids in young adult novels...”

It was originally from College Confidential, but college counselors have picked up on it. There are actually a number of people who decide to become college advisors after their parental experience on College Confidential :-)

[SanDiegoMom]

1 minute ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear: students do move out for summer. But that is much more doable than having to vacate for winter and spring (and in some places Thanksgiving) breaks. That sort of thing was a real problem for me during college without a solid home base. Summer, longer term, housing is easier to arrange.

yeah, even UCLA, which touts the amount of first gen college students they admit, still kick everyone out of the dorms. Not only that, but the only way you can stay the night after finals for free is if you have the very last final.  So even if you live across the country and have a final from 3-6, you have to pay to stay the night.  (And how many parents want their kids taking a red eye after a super difficult finals week?)

Sorry I got off on a tangential rant...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

2 hours ago, Hoggirl said:

Yes, I agree that cohesiveness in one’s application is extremely important. It kind of goes along with that telling v showing idea in essays.  Don’t just tell me you are passionate about something - show me that you are by how you have pursued your interests, honed your talents, strived to make a difference, etc. 

It's also worth mentioning that he was turned down by similarly selective colleges (University of Chicago & Wash U St Louis).

[daijobu]

On 3/28/2021 at 3:22 PM, lewelma said:

Ok, so I've had a bit of time to calm down.  Sorry for sharing my angst. 🙂 

Just an FYI, this list is not the Truth, with a capital T. My son told me that 8 of his IMO/USAMO medalist friends went out to dinner one night, and 6 of the 8 had been rejected by both Harvard and Stanford. So no, you actually don't know how Ivy's weigh these things.

Wow, that's Stanford's and Harvard's loss.  And it's really telling with respect to how MIT values merit, versus Stanford and Harvard.  

[Farrar]

Some of us don't have public universities, unfortunately. Sigh.

I know that the long list of schools being applied to is intimidating, but when you're chasing after aid and your student will have a better experience either out of state or at a private school because your state options are limited or nonexistent, then the time and money to apply to a long list is nothing compared to the money you could save. I mean, for ds, who will apply next year, he will absolutely have to have ten or more schools on his list. We need to spread out to see what our best price will end up being and it's the only way to do that. We do not have the option of a state school. There is only one and it does not accept homeschoolers or offer very many degrees.

[daijobu]

20 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't have either, for the record. No cash, no lab, no professor parent. (Well, my dad is a physics professor. Of course, I saw him once a year. So yes genetic endowment, no to actual help.) 

This thread is veering into dismissing high achievement because it happens to check some boxes. I was both intensely ambitious about how well I'd do on contests and also genuinely loved the math. Those can coexist. 

Math contests gave me the skills I needed to survive an undergraduate engineering program.  I don't think I could have passed my classes without having participated.  

Also, my performance on math contests catapulted from the boonies into a wider world of high achievement, that I was completely ignorant of.  

So while I don't think everyone needs a contest to be successful, for me it was crucial.  

[daijobu]

20 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't say everyone can do this. I said it's dismissive to say it all requires money. For lots of kids, it requires a mix of talent and really hard work. And frankly, I respect that mix. 

I think we're also missing the social capital here.  My kids were not very involved with science fairs, so if anyone else has I'd love to hear their inside story.  But my sense is that you need connections to people in academia who are willing to let a high school student pass through, do a little work, and take credit for something.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I've often wondered if this was true?  

[daijobu]

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

I went over there only once. It was awful. I knew there was info there that could be useful to me, but I just couldn't handle the rest of it.

That's interesting.  I found the students on CC to be rather kind and respectful, though honest.  However, I didn't think there was much info I could use.  Weird.  

[daijobu]

15 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

My daughter had quite a few APs because they made sense for what she needed academically. I get the impression that many think an AP course is incredibly life consuming? I suppose it could be, depending on the teacher. Some do like a lot of busywork. It was just another course here for that particular student. 🤷‍♀️ And this daughter was a good test taker, and liked that, so AP exams were not overwhelming. She will tell you even now that she very much enjoyed those courses. 

I also scratch my head when people complain about how time consuming AP classes are because my dd's never found this to be the case.  No busy work, learned a lot, and got to take a fun test at the end.  Plus there are the post exam reddit and twitter threads to enjoy!  

[daijobu]

14 hours ago, lewelma said:

I hear that. I have deleted all my posts about my boy/family before you started reading, but my dh was in the bottom 5% of Duke, and it had a huge negative impact on him for 20 years. I was *very* and I mean *very* worried that my ds would be in the same boat. How can you tell? And I think you are right, you can't. But if you are s.t.r.e.c.h.i.n.g  desperately to get your kid in just so that they get the reputational bump, then the chances are that they will be in the bottom half, and the negative emotional impact will more than overwhelm the reputation bump. I really don't think that people realize this. 

I'm pretty sure I was nowhere near the top half of my class.  I actually have no idea because we weren't ranked in college, but I didn't make tau beta pi or the other honor societies, so I know I wasn't all that great.  I was a little sad, but I don't carry this around like some sort of burden your DH does.  I'm not sure if this says more about your DH or about Duke.  

[daijobu]

Now that I think about it, even with my low GPA, the reputation of my school carried me into a top 5 med school, so no regrets.  

[8filltheheart]

For our family, the time issue would be bc we would be forced to study subjects we dont want to study or with methodologies we dont use (thinking about lit here). That is why BC and chem are the only ones that have been taken by my kids.

[daijobu]

7 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Reading that list, my school / area didn’t offer anything above a 3 for females or a 4 for males (at the time, females couldn’t be Eagle Scouts; that has since changed). I had heard of precisely 5 of the items ranked above a 4 prior to joining these boards: being a D1 athlete, going to State for athletics, being Class President, appearing on Jeopardy, & having a patent - which I didn’t think was possible for a minor. Even now, I have no clue what many are referring to. Looks like I have some research to do! 😅 

This is something I hear time and again and it really strikes me.  I have no idea what your ethnic background is or if you are an immigrant.  But I find that White people who are at least a few generations in the US are completely clueless about most academic opportunities.  In contrast, the recent immigrants know more about how US academics works before they even arrive in the US. They use online social networks in languages other than English to share their information.  I wanted to join such a list, until I found out the parents there communicate in Mandarin.

I get new immigrant parents asking me weirdly specific questions about MathCounts and AMC.  My White parents are asking me questions like "What is MathCounts?"    

[Lilaclady]

13 hours ago, daijobu said:

This is something I hear time and again and it really strikes me.  I have no idea what your ethnic background is or if you are an immigrant.  But I find that White people who are at least a few generations in the US are completely clueless about most academic opportunities.  In contrast, the recent immigrants know more about how US academics works before they even arrive in the US. They use online social networks in languages other than English to share their information.  I wanted to join such a list, until I found out the parents there communicate in Mandarin.

I get new immigrant parents asking me weirdly specific questions about MathCounts and AMC.  My White parents are asking me questions like "What is MathCounts?"    

I have heard of this before. I had no clue about Mathcounts or all the other stuff but I spent hours reading on here and other sites about things like this especially when we decided to homeschool through high school. I felt that gave me an advantage because i was starting from scratch. I’m been amazed at parents who went to school here telling me they did not realize you can take AP courses as a freshman because they only took 1 Ap as a senior. Some are not aware of programs homeschoolers can join. Some are also just not interested. It was frustrating trying to field a science Olympiad team with half the number of students and you have students doing 3,4, or 5 events. It quickly burn the kids out but most homeschoolers around us are just not interested.  

Edited March 30, 2021 by Lilaclady

[daijobu]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:33 PM, SDMomof3 said:

You can take APs without taking the class. My dd took a couple without a class and self study. 
AMC, science Olympiad and the like are viewed as extracurricular. Thousands of kids participate in these contest, unless you stand out, you are view as one of many. 

 

This may be true, but participating in a math contest is about more than showing achievement.  It's about developing skills that can be crucial to success in college.  I only ever made it to AIME my senior year in high school, just early enough to include on my applications.  Yes, the AIME helped my application, but learning to solve hard math problems helped me succeed in college.  

[Dmmetler]

54 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I think we're also missing the social capital here.  My kids were not very involved with science fairs, so if anyone else has I'd love to hear their inside story.  But my sense is that you need connections to people in academia who are willing to let a high school student pass through, do a little work, and take credit for something.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I've often wondered if this was true?  

My parents retired in 2019 after many years coordinating JSHS and ISEF preliminaries, usually taking several students to Nationals every year. As my mother put it, the kids who won in their state (VA) and did well at Natipnals inevitably had 1) a parent who could provide some mentoring and equipment (doctor, research scientist, engineer, veterinarian, or even just a really, really active hobbyist with an excellent shop) AND 2) a mentor, usually an industry research scientist OR academic AND 3) an adult to provide transport and supervision, OR they attended Thomas Jefferson (or a few private high schools). (And many of the TJ kids had 1 and 3 as well). 

 

There was really no in between. There was one rural high school that did decently at the regional  level (without a TJ in the mix), but usually not good enough to make it more than as an also ran at state that had a teacher who ran a research class/club and a tiny LAC to provide some mentoring and support (although it often was a college undergrad working with a high school kid on a project, and a faculty mentor supporting multiple groups). 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Dmmetler

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

30 minutes ago, daijobu said:

This is something I hear time and again and it really strikes me.  I have no idea what your ethnic background is or if you are an immigrant.  But I find that White people who are at least a few generations in the US are completely clueless about most academic opportunities.  In contrast, the recent immigrants know more about how US academics works before they even arrive in the US. 

It is striking, but in a way I don’t find it all that surprising. There seems to be an odd sense of complacency when it comes to the inner workings of one’s own “machine”. 

I can’t tell you the number of times I heard that we’d visited more areas of Hong Kong in our first year as Expats than locally-born  friends had in their entire lifetimes. Cost wasn’t a limiting factor & there was ample opportunity... they just... didn’t seek those things out. (There were plenty of Expats who stuck to their bubbles, too - but usually for different reasons). It reminded me a lot of people back home who’d never ventured beyond their own city or state. 

And yes, your ethnic assumptions were correct. DH & I grew up in the working-to-middle-class range in the suburbs of cities, with extended families who were even more rural & poorer.  Generally wealthier, more urban families & immigrant families looking to do whatever it takes to “make it” (regardless of the wealth, education, & expertise they bring with them) have more exposure to these sorts of opportunities. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax