What is the point of the Ivies?

[SanDiegoMom]

40 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I guess I think those are different issues. I think chasing APs and extracurriculars is a silly way to go about trying to go a selective school, anyway. I didn't apply to any selective schools but I know I would have gotten in, because being really good at one thing is a much better way to get in than being "well-rounded." I certainly didn't have the best grades in my graduating class! 

 

 

It is, but it's the only message kids in large public schools hear, it seems.  A kind of one size fits all message.  I think for the most part the only people getting the message that it's best to be spiky are the homeschoolers and the private schoolers. I mean, just for example, on Yale's own page they state that only 58 percent of it's freshman class came from public high school.  So 42 percent came from private high school.  With all of the specific college counseling that goes along with that.  At our public school, we have one counselor per 500 students. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SanDiegoMom said:

It is, but it's the only message kids in large public schools hear, it seems.  A kind of one size fits all message.  I think for the most part the only people getting the message that it's best to be spiky are the homeschoolers and the private schoolers. I mean, just for example, on Yale's own page they state that only 58 percent of it's freshman class came from public high school.  So 42 percent came from private high school.  With all of the specific college counseling that goes along with that.  At our public school, we have one counselor per 500 students. 

But then you may as well just get mad at the public schools 😉 . Which I kind of am, or my kid wouldn't be homeschooled, right? 😄 If I thought I could get her needs met while she was in school, she'd probably be in school! 

I do think that people mostly hear this message from people in the know, so it's an issue of cultural capital. Even if my kid WAS in school, she'd hear this message, because DH and I both know what it takes to go to a selective school. And yes, that's very unfair to the people without this kind of knowledge in the family. 

[lewelma]

54 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I guess I am just bitter though as I have seen so many kids burn themselves out chasing the mythical advantage of the Ivies.  The pressure from schools to max out on AP's and extracurriculars, 

I am profoundly grateful that American universities were not even discussed until my son was half way through his Junior year when he brought it up that February. He made the decision to go for it 2 months later in April, which left him exactly one shot at the SAT and 6 weeks to prep if he wanted to apply early decision, because NZ doesn't offer it very frequently.  He had always planned to go to University of Auckland, and in NZ students who pass the national exams have automatic entrance, so there was no reason to try to outcompete others for any slots. We just did our own homeschooling thing. Those who have been on the board for a few years may remember the crazy effort I had to make that summer to organize all his independent readings and interests into courses that the universities could understand. We were basically unschoolers with no tests, schedules, or detailed plans, so it was quite a thing to sort it out for an American transcript and course descriptions. But the wonderful wonderful ramification of this, is that my ds was never in the competition for entrance to the elites. He never did *anything* with that goal in mind until the SAT that May. I cannot imagine how I would have felt all those years in middle and high school trying to chase a goal that is only a lottery. Trying to see inside the minds of the admissions people and try to align my ds's courses and ECs to my impression of someone else's expectations. Just Yuck!  Perhaps the admissions folk could tell that he had never been chasing the goal. Everything he did, he did for his own improvement and desires.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Everything he did, he did for his own improvement and desires.

Right. And that was the case for me (although of course I didn't wind up going to a selective school for undergrad), and I think that was also the case for DH. I don't think chasing Ivies makes any sense. 

[8filltheheart]

34 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

It is, but it's the only message kids in large public schools hear, it seems.  A kind of one size fits all message.  I think for the most part the only people getting the message that it's best to be spiky are the homeschoolers and the private schoolers. I mean, just for example, on Yale's own page they state that only 58 percent of it's freshman class came from public high school.  So 42 percent came from private high school.  With all of the specific college counseling that goes along with that.  At our public school, we have one counselor per 500 students. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But then you may as well just get mad at the public schools 😉 . Which I kind of am, or my kid wouldn't be homeschooled, right? 😄 If I thought I could get her needs met while she was in school, she'd probably be in school! 

I do think that people mostly hear this message from people in the know, so it's an issue of cultural capital. Even if my kid WAS in school, she'd hear this message, because DH and I both know what it takes to go to a selective school. And yes, that's very unfair to the people without this kind of knowledge in the family. 

If you are surrounded by homeschoolers who believe that they don't need lists of APs and DE and lists of ECs, then you are in a bubble.  I can count on one hand the number of homeschoolers I have met who believe that homeschoolers don't have to have those sorts of courses on transcript.  Even on these forums it tends to be the mantra that you need them for outside validation.  It is the dominant perspective in all spheres of competitive kids: public and homeschooled and most private schools as well.  I imagine the elite privates/boarding schools are amg the handful of places where that isn't the mantra that students hear bc that is what allows their guidance counselor to check the "most rigorous coursework" box (which is a real thing, btw.)

Edited March 26, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom said:

especially after hearing the statistics that one third of the people attending are legacy students or sports scholarships. 

MIT is not an Ivy, and has NO legacy admission and no sports scholarships. They are also not involved in the lawsuit against the other elites for racially biased admissions, because 40% of MIT's applications are from Asian students, and 40% of the student body is Asian. Not having legacy standing allows them to be more fair racially. The other thing that many people may not know is that MIT admits more kids from the bottom 10th percentile of socioeconomic class than any other elite school. I'm guessing that this is because they are one of the few "need blind, full need" schools. My point is, each school will have a different profile for admission, some more fair than others. Obviously, once you make the first cut, you simply go into the lottery. 

[lewelma]

29 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

 

If you are surrounded by homeschoolers who believe that they don't need lists of APs and DE and lists of ECs, then you are in a bubble.  I can count on one hand the number of homeschoolers I have met who believe that homeschoolers don't have to have those sorts of courses on transcript.  Even on these forums it tends to be the mantra that you need them for outside validation.  It is the dominant perspective in all spheres of competitive kids: public and homeschooled and most private schools as well.  I imagine the elite privates/boarding schools are amg the handful of places where that isn't the mantra that students hear bc that is what allows their guidance counselor to check the "most rigorous coursework" box (which is a real thing, btw.)

This is just so sad. 😞 There is just so much more you can do that is deeper and more meaningful than studying mass produced coursework. I would never want to have to ratchet into that system and give up all the wonderful content we have studied, and experiences we have had. The passion of self-driven, self-designed courses is just a wonderful thing. The key is having the time to actually embrace what you are learning, to go deeper and to expand into new frontiers. More more more does not create an insightful and nuanced student. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Lilaclady said:

Lewelma, thanks for posting that. My dd was also accepted to MIT but did not attend and this year has been really though on students with the isolation. My dd is able to come home and commute to school which has been helpful. I think sometimes, it is just doing the very best with what you have and hoping you made the right decision. most of the time, the choices are not black and white but being able to accept whatever path one chooses will go along way toward increasing future hapiness. Sometimes, financial, cultural or social limitations will play a large role in where one starts but usually do not determine where one end. 

It has been so so hard for the Freshman this year. I can only imagine how miserable it would have been to be thrown into difficult classes while working alone in your bedroom.  😞

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This is just so sad. 😞 There is just so much more you can do that is deeper and more meaningful than studying mass produced coursework. I would never want to have to ratchet into that system and give up all the wonderful content we have studied, and experiences we have had. The passion of self-driven, self-designed courses is just a wonderful thing. The key is having the time to actually embrace what you are learning, to go deeper and to expand into new frontiers. More more more does not create an insightful and nuanced student. 

You don't have to as a homeschooler.  Parents just don't believe it bc it is repeated as if it is defacto truth.  When I attempt to have conversations discussing alternative approaches, they are dismissive.

[Porridge]

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This is just so sad. 😞 There is just so much more you can do that is deeper and more meaningful than studying mass produced coursework. I would never want to have to ratchet into that system and give up all the wonderful content we have studied, and experiences we have had. The passion of self-driven, self-designed courses is just a wonderful thing. The key is having the time to actually embrace what you are learning, to go deeper and to expand into new frontiers. More more more does not create an insightful and nuanced student. 

I’m struggling with this. I think John Taylor Gatto invokes Bartelby the Scrivener (a Melville story) in one of his books and basically encourages students not to bend to societal expectation. But when all the homeschoolers around you are aiming for  APs, DEs, and lists of ECs, it seems like it ends up being hard to find a peer group if you decide to go your own way.

[lewelma]

Just now, 8filltheheart said:

You don't have to as a homeschooler.  Parents just don't believe it bc it is repeated as if it is defacto truth.  When I attempt to have conversations discussing alternative approaches, they are dismissive.

Well, I support you. 🙂I think others are just scared. Scared they will ruin their kids' chances of getting into a good school/ getting a good scholarship if they deviate from the path they know. The problem is as more and more kids take that path, you just have to do more and more to stand out. In the end it is just an impossible race.  My nephew is taking EIGHT AP's this year! How do you compete with that?  I sure wouldn't, and I'm not thinking he is very happy, nor does he have even an ounce of time to spend in self reflection. Instead, by forging your own path, you cannot be compared to all the others, which means you must be evaluated based on your own merits.  Seems an obvious approach to stand out from the crowd. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, WTM said:

I’m struggling with this. I think John Taylor Gatto invokes Bartelby the Scrivener (a Melville story) in one of his books and basically encourages students not to bend to societal expectation. But when all the homeschoolers around you are aiming for  APs, DEs, and lists of ECs, it seems like it ends up being hard to find a peer group if you decide to go your own way.

Well, to be fair, if you decide to do something interesting, you're still kind of bending to societal expectation 😉. It's just a more intelligent way to go about it. 

At the end of the day, none of us are really living outside society. It's just best to choose wisely. 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, WTM said:

I’m struggling with this. I think John Taylor Gatto invokes Bartelby the Scrivener (a Melville story) in one of his books and basically encourages students not to bend to societal expectation. But when all the homeschoolers around you are aiming for  APs, DEs, and lists of ECs, it seems like it ends up being hard to find a peer group if you decide to go your own way.

Well, we never had a peer group, because this whole region seems to be focused on either natural led learning or the arts/humanities. I know homeschoolers who have accomplished/award winning dancers, authors, violinists, artists, but not a single student do I know who stands out in the social sciences or sciences. In fact, I don't know a single family who studies the social or natural sciences at all. And certainly not in high school. We are alone, and have been alone on our own path for 15 years. This board is where I find like minded homeschoolers. 

I think in the end, a student will stand out when they forge their own path. This shows autonomy, drive, focus, passion.  What does taking 8 APs in a year show?  Ability to put your nose to the grind stone and do what you are told. You also look just like Every. Other. Student. There is just no way to 'win' with this approach. None.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Ability to put your nose to the grind stone and do what you are told. You also look just like Every. Other. Student. There is just no way to 'win' with this approach. None.

Pretty much. 

We just helped my sister get into a selective school. At the end of the day, we're pretty sure she got in because 

a) She had leadership experience, as she ran her school's classics club for many years

and 

b) She drew a beautiful visual submission, which showcased her unique talents as an artist. 

Yes, we got her SATs up and made sure she wrote decent essays, but I'm sure those are what made her stand out. 

[Porridge]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, to be fair, if you decide to do something interesting, you're still kind of bending to societal expectation 😉. It's just a more intelligent way to go about it. 

At the end of the day, none of us are really living outside society. It's just best to choose wisely. 

But what if you’re not aiming to do “something interesting” by society’s definition? What if you’re aiming just to study what interests you? And what if you’re not aiming for societal validation through your interests - if you like to do certain things for the sheer pleasure of them, not to get points for your resume? In fact, what if you would prefer not to have the world see these things at all, because they are too dear to your heart and too much a part of yourself to open up to inspection? (But if an outsider could see them, they’d be considered pretty impressive)

I agree that at the end of the day, none of us can truly live outside of society, at least we can’t make that choice for our kids, because by definition, we are a social force in their lives, even as single individuals.

getting way too philosophical here... Where is that XKCD comic that someone posted (on another thread) about most sciences just being applied math and math just being applied philosophy? 😂 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Porridge

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, WTM said:

But what if you’re not aiming to do “something interesting” by society’s definition? What if you’re aiming just to study what interests you? And what if you’re not aiming for societal validation through your interests - if you like to do certain things for the sheer pleasure of them, not to get points for your resume? In fact, what if you would prefer not to have the world see these things at all, because they are too dear to your heart and too much a part of yourself to open up to inspection? (But if an outsider could see them, they’d be considered pretty impressive)

Then you're probably someone who's autistic or otherwise very different from the average in receptive ability. Most people can't help but get some signal about what is valued in the world. And that's not a bad thing. 

 

Just now, WTM said:

I agree that at the end of the day, none of us can truly live outside of society, at least we can’t make that choice for our kids, because by definition, we are a social force in their lives, even as single individuals.

getting way to philosophical here... Where is that XKCD comic that someone posted (on another thread) about most sciences just being applied math and math just being applied philosophy? 😂 

Ha, I don't know if that one's an xkcd! The one I always post is this one: 

https://xkcd.com/435/

 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, WTM said:

But what if you’re not aiming to do “something interesting” by society’s definition? What if you’re aiming just to study what interests you? And what if you’re not aiming for societal validation through your interests - if you like to do certain things for the sheer pleasure of them, not to get points for your resume? In fact, what if you would prefer not to have the world see these things at all, because they are too dear to your heart and too much a part of yourself to open up to inspection? (But if an outsider could see them, they’d be considered pretty impressive)

There is a beauty to being your own person with no desire for outside validation. But know thy self. If you don't need outside validation, then you don't need it; but if you do, you need to find a way to share what is dear to your heart. I don't think you can have it both ways. And if we are talking about university admissions/scholarships that is a form of outside validation. Unfortunately, they only know what you tell them. My son wrote about some pretty painful topics in his essays -- things that he would rather not have shared, I think. But they had to know in order to see the man he had the potential to become.

[Porridge]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Then you're probably someone who's autistic or otherwise very different from the average in receptive ability. Most people can't help but get some signal about what is valued in the world. And that's not a bad thing. 

 

Not autistic, but perhaps a “weird unsocialized homeschooler.” 🙂 

But What if you’re well aware of what’s valued (so not different from the average in receptive ability) but you really just don’t care?

It’s very idealistic and not very practical, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about as one of mine is on the cusp of high school. 

.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, WTM said:

Not autistic, but perhaps a “weird unsocialized homeschooler.” 🙂 

I think even homeschoolers do get some signal! Although it's true that they get less, lol. Right now, DD8 is obsessed with the comic Peanuts and also some Russian cartoons, which are rather unusual preoccupations 😂. 

 

Just now, WTM said:

But What if you’re well aware of what’s valued (so not different from the average in receptive ability) but you really just don’t care?

I guess I haven't met too many people who really don't care 🙂 . I've had many conversations with people who were having an existential crisis because they just realized their research was going to be read by 20 people in the whole wide world, probably, and that this didn't feel like enough validation. And I'm talking about people who were sufficiently unreceptive to signal to go to math grad school, which definitely means a set of people VERY tuned in to their own interests 😉 . 

I think at the end of the day, most of us need SOME validation, even the really independent-minded ones. I think everyone chooses for themselves how much validation they need, of course. 

 

Just now, WTM said:

It’s very idealistic and not very practical, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about as one of mine is on the cusp of high school. .

I'm very independent-minded, and I was still affected by the people around me 🙂 . People were good at things, and I wanted to compete. People showed me what was possible. People encouraged me. I don't think you can totally avoid society moulding you 🙂 . 

Do you think your DD is likely to make decisions that are going to be totally independent of society? Just curious -- I'm wondering how you're winding up thinking about this 🙂 . 

[SanDiegoMom]

13 minutes ago, WTM said:

Not autistic, but perhaps a “weird unsocialized homeschooler.” 🙂 

But What if you’re well aware of what’s valued (so not different from the average in receptive ability) but you really just don’t care?

It’s very idealistic and not very practical, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about as one of mine is on the cusp of high school. 

.

Well, I have a newly entered Freshman in a public school who is also newly diagnosed on the spectrum, and he's definitely not super caring about whether his interests are going to serve him well later in life.  He flew under the radar for years as being quirky and gifted when his all-in interests were coding and math.  And he still enjoys those, but now it's very much gaming.  He can tell you everything you never wanted to know about every nintendo game release, popularity, soundtrack, and characters, and now is getting back into practicing the piano so that he can play - you guessed it -- all the soundtracks from his favorite games.  And while esports is getting big and of course piano is cool... he doesn't win games a lot and he doesn't have a lot of natural talent at the piano.  (his twin sister was always light years ahead in piano than him, and loves all music equally. He tolerates other songs but won't play them -- only game soundtracks). 

For this kid I am just grateful he is starting to experience less anxiety and depression than this time last year.  If it means doing the bare minimum for school and not going all out on any type of worthy extracurricular, that's all fine.

My older daughter was always very aware of expectations and how things look to colleges.  She instinctively knew how to frame herself to look spiky and passionate even with very little to actually show for it. (she wrote fiction or slept through much of high school).   I don't know that my son will ever be able to do that. 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SanDiegoMom

[SeaConquest]

17 minutes ago, WTM said:

Not autistic, but perhaps a “weird unsocialized homeschooler.” 🙂 

But What if you’re well aware of what’s valued (so not different from the average in receptive ability) but you really just don’t care?

It’s very idealistic and not very practical, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about as one of mine is on the cusp of high school. 

.

Have you always not cared or have you, pardon my French, ran out of f**ks to give as you've grown older? I mean, fortune favors the brave, so I admire your chutzpah, but I'm too anxiety-ridden to pull a Robert Frost and full-on unschool. I don't trust myself to pull it off; I think my kids will just end up playing video games for the next decade.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, WTM said:

But What if you’re well aware of what’s valued  but you really just don’t care?

It’s very idealistic and not very practical, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about as one of mine is on the cusp of high school. 

I think that most things are valued, really.  Think about all the obscure PhD projects that people have done because they were curious, but were really not practical or useful to anyone except themselves (mine included). I think that there are a LOT of transferable skills in following a passion that won't get you anywhere in life. Remember that kid on the board who held the world record for the fastest rubik's cube? Like what was the hidden underlying 'purpose' in pursuing that skill?  But, wow was that cool! Like so cool! Did it get him anything?  I'm not sure, but who cares. He was keen.  Who said that a passion had to be directly relevant to a job, or to an adult 'proper' hobby, or to something 'acceptable'?  I just think this is going down the wrong path. Encourage your kids to do what they want. Find their passion and run with it. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by lewelma

[LAS in LA]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom said:

 and now is getting back into practicing the piano so that he can play - you guessed it -- all the soundtracks from his favorite games.  

DD’s violin teacher is part of a quartet that plays video game music. They play for gaming conferences, etc. They’ve released multiple albums. (He’s also part of a regular symphony and he teaches). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvgDoNUM2jU

All that to say: You never know where an obsession will lead! 😊

 

[Lilaclady]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:24 PM, 8filltheheart said:

You don't have to as a homeschooler.  Parents just don't believe it bc it is repeated as if it is defacto truth.  When I attempt to have conversations discussing alternative approaches, they are dismissive.

I think sometimes you also need to deal with reality. Our state flagship is getting more selective and due to a generous state funding, high achieving students can get free tuition. This has made it very popular for students looking to reduce their college expense but they weigh core courses that are AP and IB only. They acknowledge that Dual enrollment shows rigor but they don’t give it extra weight. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Lilaclady

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by madteaparty

[Not_a_Number]

Nm. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

57 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Find their passion and run with it. 

And I do think you learn a lot from the sense of flow and engagement you get with a passion 🙂 . It can give you confidence for other things, too. 

[SDMomof3]

26 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

I think sometimes you also need to deal with reality. Our state flagship is getting more selective and due to a generous state funding, high achieving students can get free tuition. This has made it very popular for students looking to reduce their college expense but they weigh core courses that are AP and IB only. They acknowledge that Dual enrollment shows rigor but they don’t give it extra weight. So for my 2dd who is likely to apply, her chances will be lower than her sister’s who had 10 or so AP credits as she will likely have more DE credits than AP’s. While it may be nice to just do our own thing, real hard cash sometimes compels in another direction so things are not always as clear cut and dried as they seem. 

So true, many schools are getting harder to get into, including the state schools. So parents and kids have to face hash realities, of the college admissions game. When I was applying to colleges, our state university system accepted all public high schoolers graduating in the to 20% of their high school. But this is no longer the case. 

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, Lilaclady said:

I think sometimes you also need to deal with reality. Our state flagship is getting more selective and due to a generous state funding, high achieving students can get free tuition. This has made it very popular for students looking to reduce their college expense but they weigh core courses that are AP and IB only. They acknowledge that Dual enrollment shows rigor but they don’t give it extra weight. So for my 2dd who is likely to apply, her chances will be lower than her sister’s who had 10 or so AP credits as she will likely have more DE credits than AP’s. While it may be nice to just do our own thing, real hard cash sometimes compels in another direction so things are not always as clear cut and dried as they seem. 

 

7 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

So true, many schools are getting harder to get into, including the state schools. So parents and kids have to face hash realities, of the college admissions game. When I was applying to colleges, our state university system accepted all public high schoolers graduating in the to 20% of their high school. But this is no longer the case. 

These 2 posts sum up my pt exactly.  My pt is homeschoolers who don't replicate PS coursework at home can be competitive.  Students who excel in their interests and use homeschooling to demonstrate their internal motivation to learn can pursue learning to a high level without replicating ps subjects and methodologies at home.  Is it a risk?  Maybe, but that  hasn't been the case for our family.  Our alternative path outcomes have been very successful and have led not only to admission but also to top competitive scholarships.  It is a risk worth taking for us to have our kids receive the educations we want them to receive (our entire pt in homeschooling is bc we think that ps methodologies are inferior.  If I wanted them to receive the equivalent of a ps education, I wouldn't have spent decades providing an alternative education to reach 9th grade, apply the brakes, and then accept that somehow their approach is the one I want to embrace.)

My current college sr is attending on this scholarship which is only awarded to 20 OOS students. USC Top Scholars (She is a Top Scholar McNair level)  She never took a single AP, the only DE course was spring semester of sr yr (so not part of her acceptance consideration.)  She was also accepted to every school she applied to with multiple full-ride offers, full-tuition offers (at schools like Fordham).  She applied to URochester bc I asked her to bc I wanted to see if she would be accepted. (That was the highest ranked school she applied to and she only applied bc I asked and it didn't require any additional work for her since she just reused what she had used to apply to other schools).  She was accepted there also with scholarship (though not as large of a scholarship as her other offers.  IIRC, I think the scholarship there was only something like $18,000.) But, she was still accepted without a traditional transcript, without a single AP or DE grade.  She demonstrated her passion for learning other ways (which have continued in college and led to her continued acceptance to competitive programs and offers bc she authentically loves to learn what she is pursuing.)

My current freshman also never took any AP or DE classes.  She is also attending on scholarship and part of her U's honors college (her scholarship is automatic based on GPA and test scores, but they accepted my printed off my home computer transcript's GPA without any outside "validation" of her coursework. 

Following the traditional route of APs and DE is the safe, well-trodden path, but no, it isn't the only one that leads to acceptances and scholarships.

Edited March 26, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Lilaclady]

On 3/26/2021 at 7:43 AM, 8filltheheart said:

 

Following the traditional route of APs and DE is the safe, well-trodden path, but no, it isn't the only one that leads to acceptances and scholarships.

I think that is true but we also need to acknowledge that different people have different goals. If you just want merit scholarships- there are different schools to look at and some like you pointed out don’t require APs etc but that is not the whole story. There are some parents and students that want the name schools for different reasons and we have to acknowledge that. For them the path may be taking a bunch of AP’s or qualifying for Olympiads etc. I have noticed that most of the homeschoolers on here that were accepted to MIT have some APs. Definitely not all like Lewelma’s son and I think- robin (something) but most of the others like muttichen (sp?) kids, Kathy in Richmond and my dd all have APs.  High achieving kids like your son and Quark’s ds were deferred and denied. So if the goal is to go to MIT for whatever reason, then it behoves one look at what has worked, knowing that past success is no guarantee of future success. 
Most of us are trying to provide the best education we can for our kids while also acknowledging that there are other factors at play. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Lilaclady

[Dmmetler]

And, you know what? You can do everything right for the first two years of high school, have a varsity level sport, have the strong, determined interest, etc and be in line to get good test scores, and then have a global pandemic hit, be unable to get updated test scores so have to apply with the ones from 8th grade, see a perfect GPA falter due to instructors not handling online learning well and changing the rules midstream, and have all your extracurriculars, activities, and, heck, friendships largely fall apart, and, due to resulting anxiety, become uncomfortable with going too far away from home, which knocks out a lot of schools, including the entire ivy league. And still land at a school that in many ways seems a great fit, with a good scholarship package-but might not have even been seriously considered had it not been for all the changes in the past year. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And, you know what? You can do everything right for the first two years of high school, have a varsity level sport, have the strong, determined interest, etc and be in line to get good test scores, and then have a global pandemic hit, be unable to get updated test scores so have to apply with the ones from 8th grade, see a perfect GPA falter due to instructors not handling online learning well and changing the rules midstream, and have all your extracurriculars, activities, and, heck, friendships largely fall apart, and, due to resulting anxiety, become uncomfortable with going too far away from home, which knocks out a lot of schools, including the entire ivy league. And still land at a school that in many ways seems a great fit, with a good scholarship package-but might not have even been seriously considered had it not been for all the changes in the past year. 

I'm sorry that was your DD's experience 😞 . Or you could be like my sister, who worked her rear end off to get into a selective school, and now largely takes online classes from her bedroom in her apartment, which is at least better than a year ago, when she was taking those same classes from her childhood bedroom back in Toronto and not getting along with our mom, who's very difficult, and otherwise having a crisis. 

[SeaConquest]

I am not disagreeing with anything that 8 has said, but my question is whether the average homeschooler, with an average public school education, who has not had the benefit of homeschooling many many children previously can really be expected to walk the courageous path with few (if any) mentors to look to for guidance and support, all in the context of the increasingly-competitive American college admission process and its concomitant exorbitant costs. It's a big gamble.

Yes, we have some examples of where it has paid off from *extremely experienced, engaged, and pedagogically knowledgeable* homeschooling parents, but I have also been around a lot of unschoolers in So Cal who are just doing it wrong and their kids are going nowhere fast. Our issue here isn't homeschoolers with too many APs; it's homeschoolers who can barely read and do math by high school because they've been "unschooled" from K-8.  

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am not disagreeing with anything that 8 has said, but my question is whether the average homeschooler, with an average public school education, who has not had the benefit of homeschooling many many children previously can really be expected to walk the courageous path with few (if any) mentors to look to for guidance and support, all in the context of the increasingly-competitive American college admission process and its concomitant exorbitant costs. It's a big gamble.

Yes, we have some examples of where it has paid off from *extremely experienced, engaged, and pedagogically knowledgeable* homeschooling parents, but I have also been around a lot of unschoolers in So Cal who are just doing it wrong and their kids are going nowhere fast. Our issue here isn't homeschoolers with too many APs; it's homeschoolers who can barely read and do math by high school because they've been "unschooled" from K-8.  

Yep. I see much more of this where I am than I do of the opposite thing. I have people who aren't too worried when their kids can't read by age 9 or 10, and I don't mean that they are thoughtful like some people on here and know that, say, dyslexia runs in their family and that's just how it goes... I mean that they don't bother to troubleshoot issues and fix them when they come up. 

And I see many, many people who don't bother with math and "expose" their kids to math concepts instead fo actually running through a math program and teaching well. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[8filltheheart]

50 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

I think that is true but we also need to acknowledge that different people have different goals. If you just want merit scholarships- there are different schools to look at and some like you pointed out don’t require APs etc but that is not the whole story. There are some parents and students that want the name schools for different reasons and we have to acknowledge that. For them the path may be taking a bunch of AP’s or qualifying for Olympiads etc. I have noticed that most of the homeschoolers on here that were accepted to MIT have some APs. Definitely not all like Lewelma’s son and I think- robin (something) but most of the others like muttichen (sp?) kids, Kathy in Richmond and my dd all have APs.  High achieving kids like your son and Quark’s ds were deferred and denied. So if the goal is to go to MIT for whatever reason, then it behoves one look at what has worked, knowing that past success is no guarantee of future success. 
Most of us are trying to provide the best education we can for our kids while also acknowledging that there are other factors at play. My dd that had a full ride plus to Alabama did not even go for a visit because she wasn’t interested but she had alternatives that worked well to her favor. For my 10th grader, I am trying to provide the best education I can for her while acknowledging that choices may limit her eligibility for scholarships if she doesn’t get into the flagship as EA but thankfully, we can still pay. 
As a side, my oldest did a program for freshman at a boutique finance firm with other students all over the country. The only students who had their names and schools on their screen were the students from MIT, Harvard and Stanford. All the others just had their names lol 😆 yes, names matter but how much is the question. 

Yeah, if a family wants to morph themselves into what they think a specific school wants for admission, then that is what they should do.  There are no guarantees one way or the other.   No one can know what an alternative path outcome would be bc you can't "redo" the path forward to find out.  But, far more people take the "safe" AP and DE path and even do so for schools where it is absolutely not necessary.  And since the original pt of this thread is whether or not Ivies are worth it, that is the root question. I suspect that those families who believe that elite schools are the end game goal are probably more willing to focus on playing the admission game bc that view is more focused on pursuing a specific admission goal. That is any family's prerogative.

FWIW, my ds who was rejected by MIT did have APs and heavy DE in math and science.  I'm sure he was rejected bc his ACT scores were low by MIT standards.  My personal perspective is that his rejection was a blessing.  For one, he wouldn't have been able to attend anyway, but more importantly, I suspect going to MIT would have limited his future.  For him and his non-competitive personality, Ruth's pt is on target. Instead, being part of a specialized research honors program that really focused on developing  research skills and being surrounded by profs who really wanted to work with him was far more conducive to achieving his long-term goals than being one of many at MIT.   I know his opportunities at Bama were awesome.  I don't think he would have been enough of a star at MIT to have had the equivalent experience there.  The lack of equivalent research opportunities would in turn have impacted his grad school opportunities or may even have led to him not attending grad school at all.   He will tell anyone who asks that he is very thankful for his UG education at Bama.

 

[SeaConquest]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yep. I see much more of this where I am than I do of the opposite thing. I have people who aren't too worried when their kids can't read by age 9 or 10, and I don't mean that they are thoughtful like some people on here and know that, say, dyslexia runs in their family and that's just how it goes... I mean that they don't bother to troubleshoot issues and fix them when they come up. 

And I see many, many people who don't bother with math and "expose" their kids to math concepts instead fo actually running through a math program and teaching well. 

I think part of our issue is weather. It's just so gosh darn tempting to want to play all the time when the weather is almost perpetually nice, especially if you are surrounded by similarly-minded folks who are also spending a lot of time playing. Once you get out of the public school mindset that you have to actually "do school" and people relax into unschooling (first, with the near-universal suggestion that they give their kids time to "deschool," a suggestion with which I agree), they sometimes find it is hard to get the motivation back up to do school well. I know plenty of people who unschool (to various degrees), and there's definitely not many deep academic conversations happening amongst most of them.   

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SeaConquest said:

I think part of our issue is weather. It's just so gosh darn tempting to want to play all the time when the weather is almost perpetually nice, especially if you are surrounded by similarly-minded folks who are also spending a lot of time playing. Once you get out of the public school mindset that you have to actually "do school" and people relax into unschooling (first, with the near-universal suggestion that they give their kids time to "deschool," a suggestion with which I agree), they sometimes find it is hard to get the motivation back up to do school well. I know plenty of people who unschool (to various degrees), and there's definitely not many deep academic conversations happening amongst most of them.   

We can't blame the weather in NYC, lol!! I suppose we can blame all the awesome activities available in the city 😉 . 

[Hoggirl]

33 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

 He will tell anyone who asks that he is very thankful for his UG education at Bama.

 

And, I bet he also learned to love college football as well!! 

[8filltheheart]

38 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am not disagreeing with anything that 8 has said, but my question is whether the average homeschooler, with an average public school education, who has not had the benefit of homeschooling many many children previously can really be expected to walk the courageous path with few (if any) mentors to look to for guidance and support, all in the context of the increasingly-competitive American college admission process and its concomitant exorbitant costs. It's a big gamble.

FWIW, I don't think the bolded is true in terms of need loads of APs and DE in order to gain admission to most universities across the country. By far, most Us are simply avg Us and all they want to see is a list of 4 Englishes, 3-4 maths/science/histories, 2 yrs of a foreign language, and a standardized test score that meets their minimal threshold.  I know local homeschoolers whose goal is the local U and who think like the bolded.  It is a totally skewed perspective.   Admission thresholds for all schools are not equal and yet that the fear perspective that is their driving motivation.   They insist that the U requires outside validation with AP scores and DE.  Why?  Bc that is what every other homeschooler here tells every other homeschooler.  It is stated as de fide. I can tell them our experience and it is dismissed as fiction (regardless of the fact that dd is attending and in the HC).  Fitting into the mold is the only perspective that is valid.

[chiguirre]

58 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And, you know what? You can do everything right for the first two years of high school, have a varsity level sport, have the strong, determined interest, etc and be in line to get good test scores, and then have a global pandemic hit, be unable to get updated test scores so have to apply with the ones from 8th grade, see a perfect GPA falter due to instructors not handling online learning well and changing the rules midstream, and have all your extracurriculars, activities, and, heck, friendships largely fall apart, and, due to resulting anxiety, become uncomfortable with going too far away from home, which knocks out a lot of schools, including the entire ivy league. And still land at a school that in many ways seems a great fit, with a good scholarship package-but might not have even been seriously considered had it not been for all the changes in the past year. 

This. I'm sure dd would not have explored enlisting in the Navy as a serious option if she hadn't lost all her extracurriculars and had all her DE classes go online last spring. She wanted to get out and explore the world either at an REU for CC students or a summer program in Peru, and, well, she ended up sitting in her bedroom taking accounting and English lit all summer. I'm sure that daydreaming about sailing away motivated her to start looking at the Navy and then she discovered that that was what she really wanted to do. I'm glad that she found something to keep her moving forward during the last, lousy year. I'm impressed that she's done her research, picked a good rate for her long term goals, found a couple of online universities that our academically solid and military friendly (U of FL, ASU, Oregon State if anyone needs this for future reference), looked up what certs clearance IT jobs require, learned about the Thrift Savings Plan, checked the taxes she'd owe on a E-3's salary and, just generally got herself squared away. This was not what I thought would happen at the beginning of her Junior year, but it's a good plan and, more important, it's dd's own plan.

[8filltheheart]

Just now, Hoggirl said:

And, I bet he also learned to love college football as well!! 

LOL!  Actually, his dad tells him he wasted his yrs!  😉  He didn't attend very many games and dh didn't get the opportunity to attend bc ds wasn't going.

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

This. I'm sure dd would not have explored enlisting in the Navy as a serious option if she hadn't lost all her extracurriculars and had all her DE classes go online last spring. She wanted to get out and explore the world either at an REU for CC students or a summer program in Peru, and, well, she ended up sitting in her bedroom taking accounting and English lit all summer. I'm sure that daydreaming about sailing away motivated her to start looking at the Navy and then she discovered that that was what she really wanted to do. I'm glad that she found something to keep her moving forward during the last, lousy year. I'm impressed that she's done her research, picked a good rate for her long term goals, found a couple of online universities that our academically solid and military friendly (U of FL, ASU, Oregon State if anyone needs this for future reference), looked up what certs clearance IT jobs require, learned about the Thrift Savings Plan, checked the taxes she'd owe on a E-3's salary and, just generally got herself squared away. This was not what I thought would happen at the beginning of her Junior year, but it's a good plan and, more important, it's dd's own plan.

Yes.  When they take ownership over their own path/goals, it is amazing what they discover.  Congrats to your dd for finding a way to achieve her goals!

[Lilaclady]

15 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

FWIW, I don't think the bolded is true in terms of need loads of APs and DE in order to gain admission to most universities across the country. By far, most Us are simply avg Us and all they want to see is a list of 4 Englishes, 3-4 maths/science/histories, 2 yrs of a foreign language, and a standardized test score that meets their minimal threshold.  I know local homeschoolers whose goal is the local U and who think like the bolded.  It is a totally skewed perspective.   Admission thresholds for all schools are not equal and yet that the fear perspective that is their driving motivation.   They insist that the U requires outside validation with AP scores and DE.  Why?  Bc that is what every other homeschooler here tells every other homeschooler.  It is stated as de fide. I can tell them our experience and it is dismissed as fiction (regardless of the fact that dd is attending and in the HC).  Fitting into the mold is the only perspective that is valid.

This is why I posted earlier- each school is different. My flagship school UGA requires validation in the 5 core areas from homeschoolers either with AP or DE or subject tests. This is not required of public/private or hybrid students but of unaccredited homeschoolers. They also only weigh AP and IB scores so students that need scholarships to attend will not qualify because of their requirement. There is no one size fits all in college admissions and each parent/child will have to do what they can for their circumstances. 

[SDMomof3]

27 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

 There is no one size fits all in college admissions and each parent/child will have to do what they can for their circumstances. 

Each school is different and each child is different. There are many paths to a university. My 2 dds ended up at the same UC and same engineering major, but they took very different paths to get there. One was a homeschooler and the other went to PS. I think that you have to work with the child in front of you and find the best path forward. 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

FWIW, I don't think the bolded is true in terms of need loads of APs and DE in order to gain admission to most universities across the country. By far, most Us are simply avg Us and all they want to see is a list of 4 Englishes, 3-4 maths/science/histories, 2 yrs of a foreign language, and a standardized test score that meets their minimal threshold.  I know local homeschoolers whose goal is the local U and who think like the bolded.  It is a totally skewed perspective.   Admission thresholds for all schools are not equal and yet that the fear perspective that is their driving motivation.   They insist that the U requires outside validation with AP scores and DE.  Why?  Bc that is what every other homeschooler here tells every other homeschooler.  It is stated as de fide. I can tell them our experience and it is dismissed as fiction (regardless of the fact that dd is attending and in the HC).  Fitting into the mold is the only perspective that is valid.

I agree with you that the average U is, well, average. But, are we talking about sending our kids to any ole average U or are we talking about whether it is worth it to send them to an Ivy/Ivy substitute vs a state flagship/state honors program or high-quality LAC/CTCL? I don't think then that it is true that the minimum will suffice. At least, it definitely will not suffice in CA. And certainly nothing that either you or Lewelma did could be considered the minimum. All I am saying is that not everyone is capable of pulling off what you and Lewelma have managed to do. Not everyone has the courage to take the risk, the experience of having taught numerous children previously, the peer support of a place like this, the finances to stay home FT, or is a naturally good teacher/capable of teaching advanced topics about which they have zero background, etc.

At some point, you felt that your children's needs were better served by outsourcing their educations to ostensibly more competent professionals or perhaps you felt that they could really benefit from the social engagement of their peers. Why did you make that decision at the point that you did? Why not continue to homeschool through the bachelors level and then outsource for grad school, for example? Or just go for the whole enchilada and issue your own PhD? I mean, who cares what society thinks? Throw off the shackles and go for it! I am not trying to be snarky; I am just trying to make the point that, for college-bound homeschoolers, we all get to the point where our personal cost/benefit analysis tells us to hand them off to someone else -- some just do it earlier than others.

Having said that, though it may not seem like it, I have benefited tremendously from homeschoolers like you and Lewelma here, and I wish there were more who were able and willing to do what you both are doing. If I hadn't had an accelerated STEM child, but had one that was more like me academically, I would feel pretty competent about educating him or her to an advanced level in the humanities, but that wasn't the hand that I was dealt. My second child is dyslexic and seems interested in the arts -- also outside my wheelhouse -- so I feel less like a teacher of these kids (beyond the basics) and more like a researcher and resource coordinator, in an effort to find them the very best fit for their specific needs. We've also had some financial issues in our family business that have made it too difficult for me to continue to stay at home FT with the kids, so I am trying to juggle all of those needs as best I can. I know you aren't judging, but rather just speaking of the reasons for your own family's choices, as am I. The older I get, the more I try to remind myself that there are no purity tests --- gray, gray, gray, Monique.       

[Porridge]

18 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Have you always not cared or have you, pardon my French, ran out of f**ks to give as you've grown older? I mean, fortune favors the brave, so I admire your chutzpah, but I'm too anxiety-ridden to pull a Robert Frost and full-on unschool. I don't trust myself to pull it off; I think my kids will just end up playing video games for the next decade.

Haha, I’m all talk and no action. All angst but general confusion when it comes to implementation 🙂  Well, not exactly — but I’m very much “in process” of thinking through these issues and have not arrived at any conclusions. And I am not really talking about unschooling. What we do at home would not be considered unschooling.

Having attended a “west coast ivy” and trained at an east coast ivy, it’s one thing to have been there and done that, and theoretically run out of #$@ as you so eloquently put it 🙂. But it is another thing to choose a pathway that might appear to limit those options for your kids before they’ve had a chance to reach their own conclusions.  I think the crux of what @8filltheheartis saying, IIUC - is that though it might appear that choosing a different path is limiting options, it is not, in fact, and may open additional options.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Porridge

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Lilaclady said:

So if the goal is to go to MIT for whatever reason, then it behoves one look at what has worked, knowing that past success is no guarantee of future success. 

From my son's experience, many of the kids that get into MIT have some sort of national competition experience -- the obvious candidates of IMO, IPhO, IChO, USAMO, robotics, etc. But then national champion in tennis, national champion in cello, etc. Or they have already published a book, or done scientific research that has been published. So that is a big chunk of them. 

But then there are the kids that have seen struggle, true struggle. The kid who is from Argentina and has seen her society collapse. The kid whose single mom has mental illness and has made it imperative that he go to work to support the family, and make dinner for his younger 3 siblings, and try to tutor them as well because their schools are so bad. Or the kid who comes from NM where the schools were crap and he never got past Pre Calculus because that was all that was offered but he set up an afterschool program at his school to tutor kids who were struggling, and he found the funding, and the volunteers, and made a huge difference in may kids lives. Or the kid who has only one arm, but still plays the cello with his foot. Or the girl who is blind but has overcome her disability to do incredibly well in school and even find the time to volunteer to work with others with similar difficulties. So there is a big chunk like this that shows the drive to overcome adversity.

This list above are actually kids that my son knows and has told me about. From the stories he has told, there are just not a lot of kids who do a ton of AP courses and that is the way they get in. If you are serious about admissions, and that is your goal, you definitely need to look way way bigger than APs. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by lewelma

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

This list above are actually kids that my son knows and has told me about. From the stories he has told, there are just not a lot of kids who do a ton of AP courses and that is the way they get in. If you are serious about admissions, and that is your goal, you definitely need to look way way bigger than APs. 

Yep. That's what my DH said as well. If you want to go to MIT or the like, you need to seriously stand out in some way. And your examples illustrate what that means. 

If everyone has 8 APs, then having 8 APs isn't going to be the thing that makes you stand out 😉 . That's an arms race you won't be able to win, and you may as well not try.

[Not_a_Number]

My oldest is 8, so you can take what I say with a boulder of salt, but

a) I expect her to be the kind of kid that might very well benefit from a selective college, given what she can do now

and 

b) I can't imagine going the "chasing extracurriculars and APs" route for her to be able to do so. 

Actually, we've been thinking about this a little bit (only a little bit, because she's small, but we do think about it), and the question for us right now is how much we should encourage her to do math competitions. She's VERY good at math but not currently passionate about it (she doesn't spend her own time on it), but she may be good enough at it to be able to excel without having to put in the hours. 

This is all obviously way ahead of time... I'm just illustrating what I think about when I think about how to help my kid eventually get into a competitive college. The idea that she'll need to do the standard pressure-cooker thing doesn't even enter my head. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

If everyone has 8 APs, then having 8 APs isn't going to be the thing that makes you stand out 😉 . That's an arms race you won't be able to win, and you may as well not try.

This is exactly what I am trying to say. 

The problem is that you can't do everything. So if you want to go for the lottery of elite admissions you need to have the time to do something different and special and that means that there is less time for APs. But then you are likely to still want to have a great backup school, and it sounds like many of them are looking at APs and using them to weight your GPA. But of course you can do it all.  So each family will have to make a decision on how to spend limited time, and those choices cannot maximize competitiveness for both of these two admissions processes.

Personally, I'm with 8filltheheart, I'd rather march to my own drummer and let the chips fall where they may. I left the school system because I wanted to educate my children, not because I wanted to *signal* that they were educated. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by lewelma